0% Villa - Black Managers

[Dave Cooper please]

DJ Spooney did a program on this on R5 last night, they had Ince Barnes and others sugesting there was discrimination and why there are too few black managers, there was nothing to back it up. I need one stat, out of all the managers that are out of work right now how many of them are black?

That wouldn'r actually prove anything. If black ex-players aren't taking the coaching badges or even thinking about taking up managerial roles after their careers end because they percieve football to be predjudiced then there will always be more white mangers out of work than black managers, obviously.

This is where the Rooney rule comes in, if black players at least think there will be a level playing field then they might be encouraged to get the qualifications.

Tamworth have a black manager by the way, he's a bit shit but it is only his first season!

[villa1]

Taylor said Ince should have been fully qualified when he took the Blackburn post, but added: "I spoke to Richard Scudamore [the chief executive of the FA Premier League] and said 'we've got to give him a chance, we have promised that we'll fast-track him and get him qualified'.

Why was he not qualified? Because he was black? I doubt it somehow. If they choose to fast track a  manager it should not be because of his skin colour, which is what they're suggesting.

Am I right in thinking they fast tracked Southgate, or someone similar, a few years back?
I presume he wasn't fast tracked because he was white, but because they wanted to give him a chance. Ince should have been fast tracked for that reason only.

Never liked Gordon Taylor anyway.

[ktvillan]

DJ Spooney did a program on this on R5 last night, they had Ince Barnes and others sugesting there was discrimination and why there are too few black managers, there was nothing to back it up. I need one stat, out of all the managers that are out of work right now how many of them are black?

There was a sicologist who said the only pertanant thing in that people will choose people as managers that appear similar to the ones that have been successfull and until a black manager breaks through then the staus quo will remain.

That's the key point with all these claims, it' appears to be assumption based on the fact there have been very few black managers at the top level.  No-one is providing any stats to say how many were interviewed, how many were even interested, how many have even bothered starting the coaching badges, how many just saw football as a way to make a few quid before going off to enjoy the rest of their lives, how many were more interested in the far less pressurised media side of the game.  Barnes was given opportunities at big clubs based on being a big name player, as was Ince. Neither exactly blazed a trail for others to follow.  I'd be more inclined to give Gordon Taylor some credit if the PFA carried out a survey of all players of all ethnicities and asked them some of these questions.  Then he might have something to go on.

Incidentally, nowadays most top level players will end their careers as multi-millionaires with no need to "work" again.  I wonder how many of them will be bothered to go into management.

[Chico Hamilton III]

It's not something that's restricted to football.

The only black faces in my office either work on the security desk, as cleaners or the real high-flyers who work in low-ranking IT jobs.

Not a single black manager here.

Mind you, not many women managers either.

Summat's wrong

[JUAN PABLO]

It's not something that's restricted to football.

The only black faces in my office either work on the security desk, as cleaners or the real high-flyers who work in low-ranking IT jobs.

Not a single black manager here.

Mind you, not many women managers either.

Summat's wrong

you need Halle Berry there ...      mind, I would'nt get any work done...

[Chico Hamilton III]

you need Halle Berry there ...      mind, I would'nt get any work then...

I'd prefer Chuck Berry, to be honest

[Concrete John]

That's the key point with all these claims, it' appears to be assumption based on the fact there have been very few black managers at the top level.  No-one is providing any stats to say how many were interviewed, how many were even interested, how many have even bothered starting the coaching badges, how many just saw football as a way to make a few quid before going off to enjoy the rest of their lives, how many were more interested in the far less pressurised media side of the game.  Barnes was given opportunities at big clubs based on being a big name player, as was Ince. Neither exactly blazed a trail for others to follow.  I'd be more inclined to give Gordon Taylor some credit if the PFA carried out a survey of all players of all ethnicities and asked them some of these questions.  Then he might have something to go on.

Fully agree.

I may be wrong, but I don't see all that great a difference between the number of black players now to 10-15 years ago, which is the era where managers like Southgate, Hughes and Keane come from.  So I can't see there being more as we go forward unless we understand WHY they aren't coming through.  I don't believe it's a matter of racism and Taylor would be better off looking at the various coaching courses and asking why there are so few black ex-players on them.   

[Greg N'Ash]

Tricky question really. you could probably make a similar case about english managers at the top level at least. Its fashionable to have a foreign manager now, before the craze was for big name ex-players as your manager. Seem to remember Ince saying that he had to start at a much lower level in the leagues than similar high profile white colleagues. That may have some truth in it but then there was people like Nigel Clough who hardly went in at the top. I suppose the real question is if the likes of Andy cole, Dwight York, Ian Wright etc.. all wanted to get into manangement when they retired, got the qualifications and couldn't get a job, or if they just looked at the job and thought "sod that"....

[Risso]

I think that black people make up less than 2% of the population of the UK, so if anything I'd say they are statistically over-represented in football. 

[MoetVillan]

Good point Risso.  I think good points made about clubs all going for success and hire accordingly, rather than background and skin colour of manager.  In my book its the same as the discussion about not enough English players in the premier league, or enough managers that are English either.  If they are good enough they will get there, i dont think anyone should be owed anything.  We can put in quotas, but that just artificially alters the "population", and we get skewed results.  The best guys will tend to end up in the top teams, getting paid the most money.  I honestly dont think most people care about skin colour, sex or background these days, certainly not the hirer and firers, they just want the best people for the job regardless (its what I look for), and thats the way it should be.  Positive discrimination is almost a reflex action to racisim or equivalents, and I think its made into too much of an issue, but maybe im naive.

[olaftab]

I think that black people make up less than 2% of the population of the UK, so if anything I'd say they are statistically over-represented in football. 

Yes as players however than  under represented  in football administration, management and on the terraces.

[KevinGage]

completely glosses over the fact that a lot of the prominent black english players over the last 20 years have elected to go into the media instead. mark bright, ian wright, stan collymore, dion dublin all spring to mind.

who would genuinely want the day-to-day stress and hassle of being a football manager, when you could pick up a few thousand quid a week to spout crap?

That's true, to a degree.

Some of the obvious candidates (Regis, Dublin and co) who were earmarked as the most likely candidates have shown no interest (yet) in pursuing the gig. What can you do, short of forcing them to take jobs.

I guess the argument would be that managers generally come from the pool of somewhat unfancied players, those who haven't had a particularly notable playing career are more hungry to make a name for themselves. And from that group, we haven't seen enough black players make the transition.

I also think -if anything- opportunities might be a bit harder lower down the football pyramid. The old style chairman of yesteryear still rules the roost at some of the lower league clubs and casual racism might be more prevalent amongst (some) of that generation.

At top flight clubs, those kind of bygone attitudes just couldn't be entertained with the sums of money involved. For a start, we're generally talking about billionaire owners of huge industries or multi-national corps now. It's possible they might have still been successful on that scale had they been bigoted and insular, but unlikely. Plus, even if they possessed less than PC views about certain cross sections of society, they'd be foolish to damage their substantial investment by not hiring the best bloke for the job whether he was black, white or Phil Orange.

[hawkeye]

DJ Spooney did a program on this on R5 last night, they had Ince Barnes and others sugesting there was discrimination and why there are too few black managers, there was nothing to back it up. I need one stat, out of all the managers that are out of work right now how many of them are black?

That wouldn'r actually prove anything. If black ex-players aren't taking the coaching badges or even thinking about taking up managerial roles after their careers end because they percieve football to be predjudiced then there will always be more white mangers out of work than black managers, obviously.

This is where the Rooney rule comes in, if black players at least think there will be a level playing field then they might be encouraged to get the qualifications.

Tamworth have a black manager by the way, he's a bit shit but it is only his first season!

so we are not saying the issue is racism, its percieved racism, well i cant help you there, i could not give a monkeys toss about the colour of a Villa manager I just want the best manager we could possibly attract and I guess that is the view of fans, players and chairmen, the R5 live thing tried  to make a sensational point, they failed because other than a few whingers there was no evidence to back it up. The more black players that take the coaching badges and apply for jobs the more black managers will get jobs.