0% Villa - Black Managers

[Handsworth Wood Villa]

Maybe in percentage terms more ex white players are interested in  coaching than ex black players?

I think that's just as feasible as the idea that boardrooms up and down the country are either full of racists or otherwise unwittingly "institutionally racist".

I feel this may be the case too.

I think that even though black people are good are football, they aren't interested in football in the same way as white people.

This is illustrated by the fact that 98% of Villa Park is white, when Brum is only like 65% white.

Also, I remember in the build up to Carling Cup final that James Milner said he was there in 1996, supporting Leeds as a boy against Villa in the League Cup final.

I could never imagine a black player saying this...

Anyone else think this could be the case?

[peter w]

Maybe in percentage terms more ex white players are interested in  coaching than ex black players?

I think that's just as feasible as the idea that boardrooms up and down the country are either full of racists or otherwise unwittingly "institutionally racist".

I feel this may be the case too.

I think that even though black people are good are football, they aren't interested in football in the same way as white people.

This is illustrated by the fact that 98% of Villa Park is white, when Brum is only like 65% white.

Also, I remember in the build up to Carling Cup final that James Milner said he was there in 1996, supporting Leeds as a boy against Villa in the League Cup final.

I could never imagine a black player saying this...

Anyone else think this could be the case?

What, you mean someone like Ian Taylor? or Garry Thompson?

[olaftab]

Positive discrimination is just as wrong as discrimination.  However positive action is good. The difference is PD would  mean choosing a person with obvious discriminatory factors such as race, colour, sex or disability in front of someone else who may be ahead on merit , whilst PA would mean ensuring that there is representation in the selection process and than  someone is selected on merit. The Rooney rule does exactly that. Most large companies in UK have adapted similar approach.

[hawkeye]

DJ Spooney did a program on this on R5 last night, they had Ince Barnes and others sugesting there was discrimination and why there are too few black managers, there was nothing to back it up. I need one stat, out of all the managers that are out of work right now how many of them are black?

There was a sicologist who said the only pertanant thing in that people will choose people as managers that appear similar to the ones that have been successfull and until a black manager breaks through then the staus quo will remain.

[5ft811st2 Durham]

Positive discrimination is just as wrong as discrimination.  However positive action is good. The difference is PD would  mean choosing a person with obvious discriminatory factors such as race, colour, sex or disability in front of someone else who may be ahead on merit , whilst PA would mean ensuring that there is representation in the selection process and than  someone is selected on merit. The Rooney rule does exactly that. Most large companies in UK have adapted similar approach.

The Rooney rule is totally ridiculous. Football clubs should be able to choose who the hell they want to manage them and the shortlist from which the successful candidate is selected should be confidential unless the club wish to disclose it.

This talk about "positive action" irritates me as if this is an important issue. The fact is that we're talking about already rich ex players here who don't need to do another days work in their lives. Whether a few more  black ex players become managers will do nothing to help the lives of the unemployed black youth of Nechells.

[bertlambshank]

DJ Spooney did a program on this on R5 last night, they had Ince Barnes and others sugesting there was discrimination and why there are too few black managers, there was nothing to back it up. I need one stat, out of all the managers that are out of work right now how many of them are black?

There was a sicologist who said the only pertanant thing in that people will choose people as managers that appear similar to the ones that have been successfull and until a black manager breaks through then the staus quo will remain.

Yes but Ince and Barnes are shit managers.Managers would be 20 years behind because of the natural timing of it all.In 10 years time there will be a lot more black managers.

[Hopadop]

"There's a serious debate to be had about the colour of one's skin having no relevance in a meritocracy......quick,  send for DJ Spoony!"

[ozzjim]

How many black players can you think of and think he would make a really good manager in a few years time.... Thierry Henry springs to mind, intelligent and eloquent, maybe Vieira, can imagine Ugo being quite good for some reason. I think an issue is that the last 10 -15 years, with the massive inflation of wages from before, the amount of players who are hungry enough to raise their head above the sand and try management is decreasing, most good ones are from the lower leagues coming through, and the top clubs are turning to older heads increasingly due to the lack of obvious talent coming through in management. Maybe if we got more players, black white and grey through the uefa pro license, working in all levels of football, the technique of the english game might improve and more young managers would look like they had a clue, starting in coaching positions first to learn some of the functions. How many black coaches do we see? Les Ferdinand at Spurs is about the only one I can think off. Maybe that is where there needs to be a start, but not through some sort of weighted process..

[villa1]

When you think about it; most managers are ex-players from a generation of predominantly white players. Due to the influx of black players in the last 10/15 years or so, I believe that in the future their will be plenty of black managers.

fair point. But it doesn't explain why footballers that get top jobs in the Prem without any experience tend to be white. There were plenty of black players in the 90s that should have been given the same opportunity as a gareth Southgate, david Platt, Stuart pearce, Roy keane etc

Maybe they didn't want to be managers. The ones you've mentioned above, you could've guessed that they would become managers (well, maybe not David Platt). What black player do you think would've wanted to be a manager? Ian Wright?!?!?!?

Of you look at the likes of Carlton Palmer, Mark Bright, Keith Alexander, Paul Ince etc the point is that they automatically had to start at the bottom - and rightly so - for those that wanted to go into management. Yes, there would undoubtedly be more white than black ex-players following that route due to obvious numbers. But the black players wouldn't be able to rely on a helping hand that some white ex-players get/got. It may be racist, it may be the ex-players qualities, but either way its a longer and harder route for a black manager.

Maybe it used to be. Not any more. The person who is best for the job will get it, regardless of skin colour.

Football is about money. Winning brings you that. If the best candidate to bring success and money to the club is black then he will be the one employed.

If we were having this conversation 20 years ago i'd agree with you.

I just can't see any interview panel saying, "we're not employing him; he's black."

Not in this day and age and not at such a high profile level.

Maybe the question they should be asking is, why aren't black people getting these jobs? Not, why aren't we giving these jobs to them ahead of white people?

[Lizz]

Maybe the question they should be asking is, why aren't black people getting these jobs? Not, why aren't we giving these jobs to them ahead of white people?

Tend to agree with what you're saying. Devil's in the detail and all that. In normal recruitment, which I accept is nothing like football recruitment, quite often subconsciously, interviewers appoint based on mirror images of their own background.

[villa1]

Maybe the question they should be asking is, why aren't black people getting these jobs? Not, why aren't we giving these jobs to them ahead of white people?

Tend to agree with what you're saying. Devil's in the detail and all that. In normal recruitment, which I accept is nothing like football recruitment, quite often subconsciously, interviewers appoint based on mirror images of their own background.

I'm glad someone understood what I was trying to say. Don't think I put it across too well.

[olaftab]

Positive discrimination is just as wrong as discrimination.  However positive action is good. The difference is PD would  mean choosing a person with obvious discriminatory factors such as race, colour, sex or disability in front of someone else who may be ahead on merit , whilst PA would mean ensuring that there is representation in the selection process and than  someone is selected on merit. The Rooney rule does exactly that. Most large companies in UK have adapted similar approach.

The Rooney rule is totally ridiculous. Football clubs should be able to choose who the hell they want to manage them and the shortlist from which the successful candidate is selected should be confidential unless the club wish to disclose it.
This talk about "positive action" irritates me as if this is an important issue. The fact is that we're talking about already rich ex players here who don't need to do another days work in their lives. Whether a few more  black ex players become managers will do nothing to help the lives of the unemployed black youth of Nechells.

I think you need to read my post properly. I am talking about PA in general not just for ex footballer. PA IS an important issue. It means  being given an opportunity.  The  "black youth of Nechells" need is an opportunity. You may be surprised but you will find a large number of employers have adapted PA whilst rejecting PD and this is the correct thing to do.

[olaftab]

How many black players can you think of and think he would make a really good manager in a few years time.... Thierry Henry springs to mind, intelligent and eloquent, maybe Vieira, can imagine Ugo being quite good for some reason. I think an issue is that the last 10 -15 years, with the massive inflation of wages from before, the amount of players who are hungry enough to raise their head above the sand and try management is decreasing, most good ones are from the lower leagues coming through, and the top clubs are turning to older heads increasingly due to the lack of obvious talent coming through in management. Maybe if we got more players, black white and grey through the uefa pro license, working in all levels of football, the technique of the english game might improve and more young managers would look like they had a clue, starting in coaching positions first to learn some of the functions. How many black coaches do we see? Les Ferdinand at Spurs is about the only one I can think off. Maybe that is where there needs to be a start, but not through some sort of weighted process..

I think you have  covered it. There is under representation of Black managers v number of black footballers but this may be due to choice. Some stats are required to establish how many black applications were rejected prior to interview.  However if there are no applicants than no one can do anything about it except the ex black players.

[bertlambshank]

Positive discrimination is just as wrong as discrimination.  However positive action is good. The difference is PD would  mean choosing a person with obvious discriminatory factors such as race, colour, sex or disability in front of someone else who may be ahead on merit , whilst PA would mean ensuring that there is representation in the selection process and than  someone is selected on merit. The Rooney rule does exactly that. Most large companies in UK have adapted similar approach.

The Rooney rule is totally ridiculous. Football clubs should be able to choose who the hell they want to manage them and the shortlist from which the successful candidate is selected should be confidential unless the club wish to disclose it.
This talk about "positive action" irritates me as if this is an important issue. The fact is that we're talking about already rich ex players here who don't need to do another days work in their lives. Whether a few more  black ex players become managers will do nothing to help the lives of the unemployed black youth of Nechells.

I think you need to read my post properly. I am talking about PA in general not just for ex footballer. PA IS an important issue. It means  being given an opportunity.  The  "black youth of Nechells" need is an opportunity. You may be surprised but you will find a large number of employers have adapted PA whilst rejecting PD and this is the correct thing to do.

Nah! Everybody needs an opportunity.What colour you are really does not matter.

[placeforparks]

completely glosses over the fact that a lot of the prominent black english players over the last 20 years have elected to go into the media instead. mark bright, ian wright, stan collymore, dion dublin all spring to mind.

who would genuinely want the day-to-day stress and hassle of being a football manager, when you could pick up a few thousand quid a week to spout crap?