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Author Topic: League or Cup? it's obvious really.  (Read 10984 times)

Offline Archbishop Herbert Cockthrottle

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Re: League or Cup? it's obvious really.
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2011, 12:02:53 PM »
Just a bit of dignity and respect for the fans would be nice. Why bother at all with the cup competitions if points mean prizes? Why don't we just fall on our sword at the first hurdle and concentrate on the league?

Makes me puke.

Offline Pete3206

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Re: League or Cup? it's obvious really.
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2011, 12:30:10 PM »
We seem to be in a constant state of transition and making mid table finishes a priority. I'm sick of it.


Offline myf

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Re: League or Cup? it's obvious really.
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2011, 12:32:47 PM »
What about income from being in Europe as well?

Offline vilan461

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Re: League or Cup? it's obvious really.
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2011, 12:40:33 PM »
I'm an Aston villa fan - I want to see Aston villa win trophies, I'm not a businessman. There is no reason why Aston villa could not have put out their strongest available team last night and still finished in the top 12 this season- last night stinks of lack of ambition and lack of respect for fans and the fa cup.
   Have to say--i agree 101% as fans we or i should hope the great majority of us want to see our club win trophies and to witness it first hand--be part of and feel the emotion and passion,,this  sadly aint part of the businessmans edit!!
  last night showed a clear lack of respect to our clubs supporters especially those that travelled only to be so badly let down!!

Offline Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air

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Re: League or Cup? it's obvious really.
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2011, 12:44:59 PM »
How much do e-on pay to sponsor this trophy ?
Surely, it should be £15-20m for the winners
Somehow the FA needs to make clubs interested again, it's a shame but only money will address this

Even then it wont work because  now its all about the worldwide TV audience. Try explaining to a 16 year old kid in Shanghai wearing a Man U shirt about Ronnie Radford scoring for Hereford against Newcastle, or the Matthews final, or Sunderland beating Leeds, or the White Horse in 1923, or Chasetown making it to the 1st round proper, or semi finals being played at VP and Hillsborough like they used to, singing Abide with me, the whole country coming to halt because its cup final day,  open top bus civic receptions, scarfs and rattles.

Jumpers for goalposts ? You may as well have a couple of chop sticks with a satellite dish on the top.

Offline Concrete John

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Re: League or Cup? it's obvious really.
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2011, 12:49:52 PM »
This is sadly true.  The English fans still care passionately about the FA cup, but the TV driven revenue comes largely from overaeas, where they don't.

The only thing more depressing than that is the fact I honestly can't see it changing! 

Offline Tokyo Sexwhale

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Re: League or Cup? it's obvious really.
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2011, 12:50:10 PM »
It's not a fair comparison.

As others have pointed out there are tangible benefits from a Cup run, extra matchday revenue, TV revenue, qualification for Europe and the revenue from those matches.

But more important than that is the perception and status of Aston Villa. 

Challenging for a mediocre League position and for one of the cups should not be too much for us.  If it is, then how the hell are non-committed fans supposed to turn into casual fans, or casual fans into season-ticket holders, or people who buy lots of Villa merchandise?

And if that is our ambition - then how are we supposed to attract or retain better players? 

Why should TV show our cup games, when our management appear not to give a toss?

Last night's selection was a sick joke - it's undermined all of the work the club have done to rehabilitate Houllier's reputation after a shocking start.  We needed a riposte to all those Bluenose colleagues that were gloating - but you expect them to take the piss, you don't expect it of the club's own management.

Offline Dave Cooper please

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Re: League or Cup? it's obvious really.
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2011, 12:53:03 PM »

How much do e-on pay to sponsor this trophy ?
Surely, it should be £15-20m for the winners
Somehow the FA needs to make clubs interested again, it's a shame but only money will address this

A Champions League place for the winners and one less CL place in the League would help.
Again it's all money but it's an incentive when you are eyeing up a winnable quarter final and have absolutely no hope of third place.

Offline Lee

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Re: League or Cup? it's obvious really.
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2011, 12:54:54 PM »
While last night's team was indefensible and my views on trophy v league place have been repeated ad nauseum, it's a sad indictment of football's priorities that if the current table is replicated at the end of the season, the total financial benefit of winning the FA Cup could be outweighed by winning one league game.

Exactly .. football is in a shocking state in this Country.

What I don't get, if we were in the bottom 3, then I may have some sympathy for Houllier, Saturday we have Bolton and although not out the woods, not as bad as we have been.

Whilst some of the changes were enforced, far too many were made for the sake of it. I feel that we could have taken both games on and maintained both fronts, especially considering that we have a 2 week break after that

Online pauliewalnuts

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Re: League or Cup? it's obvious really.
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2011, 12:57:02 PM »
What about income from being in Europe as well?

Income from the Europa League is absolute peanuts

Offline Concrete John

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Re: League or Cup? it's obvious really.
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2011, 12:57:53 PM »
Thing is though that the TV revenue and merchandising that come with a cup run also come when you're further up the league challenging.  So the £7.2m and £1.8m comparison also works.  Barring replays, the FA cup in 7 games, so lets be generous and say all 7 are televised.  A team finishing 6th would have more than the 7 of their league games televised.

Whichever way you look at it, the league pays more and money talks in modern football.

Online pauliewalnuts

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Re: League or Cup? it's obvious really.
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2011, 01:03:20 PM »
Thing is though that the TV revenue and merchandising that come with a cup run also come when you're further up the league challenging.  So the £7.2m and £1.8m comparison also works.  Barring replays, the FA cup in 7 games, so lets be generous and say all 7 are televised.  A team finishing 6th would have more than the 7 of their league games televised.

What about finishing 6th and having a cup run?

And shouldn't you also be looking not at having 7 league games televised in isolation, but having 7 *more* games televised than a team finishing, say, 12th?

Offline KevinGage

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Re: League or Cup? it's obvious really.
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2011, 01:11:13 PM »
Winning a trophy - or even getting to the latter stages and having a really good go- would have a knock on effect though, not just this season but when it comes to season tickets and the like next year. So the financial benefit could be far in excess of set money for finishing 7th-14th.

Fans will respond if they thinking we're putting things in place to compete. They won't if we go the opposite way and we do what we did last night, effectively telling the world we're closed for business.

Offline Pat McMahon

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Re: League or Cup? it's obvious really.
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2011, 01:11:47 PM »
How much do e-on pay to sponsor this trophy ?
Surely, it should be £15-20m for the winners
Somehow the FA needs to make clubs interested again, it's a shame but only money will address this

Even then it wont work because  now its all about the worldwide TV audience. Try explaining to a 16 year old kid in Shanghai wearing a Man U shirt about Ronnie Radford scoring for Hereford against Newcastle, or the Matthews final, or Sunderland beating Leeds, or the White Horse in 1923, or Chasetown making it to the 1st round proper, or semi finals being played at VP and Hillsborough like they used to, singing Abide with me, the whole country coming to halt because its cup final day,  open top bus civic receptions, scarfs and rattles.

Jumpers for goalposts ? You may as well have a couple of chop sticks with a satellite dish on the top.

Andy, you have just described my normal Saturday night preaching to heathens in Shanghai! After our 7-1 drubbing at Chelsea last March a fellow genuinely said to me: "Why don't you change teams?" Fair play to him, he could take a good punch, but it was a genuine question as that is all that people are interested in now - winners in either the Premier League or the Chumps League. And if your team is flailing for 6 games then switch horses mid-race and jump to whichever of the Sky 4 is top of the heap.

We really should have been in a position to put a competitive team out last night and still have a pop at Bolton on Saturday. I really hope we win there, obviously for the 3 points and all the benefits it will bring to our position, but also because it will ease pressure on GH and the last thing we need now is talk of switching managers.

As Chico said to me after Moscow "Nobody ever had a tattoo done after finishing 4th in the table, but some people do after winning the cup". I'm still dreaming of my tattoo and it is not mutually incompatible with a good league position.

Offline dave.woodhall

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Re: League or Cup? it's obvious really.
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2011, 01:14:10 PM »
It's not a fair comparison.

As others have pointed out there are tangible benefits from a Cup run, extra matchday revenue, TV revenue, qualification for Europe and the revenue from those matches.

But more important than that is the perception and status of Aston Villa. 

Challenging for a mediocre League position and for one of the cups should not be too much for us.  If it is, then how the hell are non-committed fans supposed to turn into casual fans, or casual fans into season-ticket holders, or people who buy lots of Villa merchandise?

And if that is our ambition - then how are we supposed to attract or retain better players? 

Why should TV show our cup games, when our management appear not to give a toss?

Last night's selection was a sick joke - it's undermined all of the work the club have done to rehabilitate Houllier's reputation after a shocking start.  We needed a riposte to all those Bluenose colleagues that were gloating - but you expect them to take the piss, you don't expect it of the club's own management.


Add all the income from a cup run - prize money, gates, souvenirs, even running coaches to away games, and it still comes nowhere near the amount you get from finishing a handful of places higher in the league. What's worse is that modern supporters have bought into this idea, and see seventh as better than 15th and winning a cup. While we're castigating the team selection last night, have a look at the attendance. If supporters who get 35 years without a trophy thrown at them daily can't be arsed, who can?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 01:20:47 PM by dave.woodhall »

 


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