Villa's last four managers

[VillaZogmariner]

For those who voted for Sir GT -

If I remember one of the first things he wanted to do/did when he came back was sort out the Academy.

It is because of this that we are reaping the benefits now - Gabby, Albrighton etc. Not to mention the money raised from the players we've sold that we've brought through.

[Villa'Zawg]

Its 6 games because that's how many games there were before Gerard started changing things. You're rigth that it isn't a big sample but it is 15% of the season and was a direct continuation of the form we showed over the previous 100 games.

If you want to look at our current form, which is usually taken over 6 games, we've taken 5 points from 5 league games and thrown an FA Cup 5th round tie because the manager didn't think he could put out a team with a chance of beating Man City and didn't fancy getting a draw.

To be honest, if we took a measure purely on the latest 6 games, I'd rank it well below Billy McNeill form.

[Concrete John]

About the legacy thing:-

It's very subjective, but when we had 4 or 5 players in the England squad, all O'Neill signings and/or players he nurtured, that says a lot about 'legacy' to me in terms of the ability of the playing squad he left behind.

About the snapshot thing:-

I said after Man City that he had bought a few players in and it was much more a 'Houllier team' from that point on.  If we're judging it from that then it's 11 points from 7 games, which extrapolates to more or less 60 after 38 games.  If, and I do think it's a big if, we do sort out the defence I'd say there's cause for optimism next season.

[Risso]

Graham Taylor probably did the worst job overall, but then he arguably worked under the most testing conditions, as immediately after Gregory left it looked like Doug was determined not to spend again, and we had Ansell making statements like we'd never spend £10m on a player again as we did with Angel.

He still bought some absolute shite though, eg Kinsella, Boulding, De La Cruz, Leonhardsen etc.

O'Leary did a great job first season, started to wane second half, and was dire in his third season.  That last season was probably the worst of all managers listed, because we did actually spend some money that year bringing in the likes of Baros.  He was utterly detestable as well.

Onto O'Neill, which has obviously been done to death.  Did a good job up to a point, but should we have expected more given the backing he had?  I obviously argued we should, and despite him buying two new complete defences in four years, it remains the weakest area of our team by a long way.  The way he left us makes him an even bigger c*** than O'Leary.

As to Houllier, he just looks to be a complete mistake to me.  I think he was the wrong choice for the job, and wouldn't want him to carry on next season.  I think he's out of his depth and past it.

[Rip Van We Go Again]

O'Leary did a great job first season, started to wane second half, and was dire in his third season.  That last season was probably the worst of all managers listed, because we did actually spend some money that year bringing in the likes of Baros.  He was utterly detestable as well.

Prior to his last season, he spent about £16m, doesn't sound that much now, but it was pretty good back then, especially with Ellis at the helm.

[Risso]

O'Leary did a great job first season, started to wane second half, and was dire in his third season.  That last season was probably the worst of all managers listed, because we did actually spend some money that year bringing in the likes of Baros.  He was utterly detestable as well.

Prior to his last season, he spent about £16m, doesn't sound that much now, but it was pretty good back then, especially with Ellis at the helm.

Spot on Mark.  The wage bill went up a lot that year as well.  Whatever money there was to spend, he got it, plus a bit more.

[Monty]

DOL was the man who bought Milan Baros because he couldn't get James Beattie. That's a pretty damning obituary in my book.

[Risso]

DOL was the man who bought Milan Baros because he couldn't get James Beattie. That's a pretty damning obituary in my book.

We were all quite excited about the prospect of signing both players as I recall.

[Monty]

DOL was the man who bought Milan Baros because he couldn't get James Beattie. That's a pretty damning obituary in my book.

We were all quite excited about the prospect of signing both players as I recall.

Well firstly it's not our job to scout potential (and at the time, potentially huge) signings to thoroughly make sure they're not rubbish, and secondly I wasn't on here at the time and thought Baros was a decent player, but for weeks I was literally terrified at the prospect of us paying money for Beattie.

[Risso]

but for weeks I was literally terrified at the prospect of us paying money for Beattie.

You have to look at what else we had at the time though Monty.  Beattie had had three good seasons with Southampton, including one where he hit 23 league goals.  At the time we had Angel and Vassell up front, and that was about it.

[Pat McMahon]

...

So if he was poor at coaching and transfer policy and we finished 6th on three consecutive seasons, with the small matter of making our first final and Wembley appearances in 10 years, are you saying he was a genius in all other areas of management to overcome these faults?

Not a genius at all. His was a pragmatic style of football that was sufficient to garner points on a regular basis. Nothing to be sniffed at, but what is that worth today?

The 6th places he achieved were creditable, but are by now worth very little. The prize money went straight through the club and into the pockets of the likes of Beye etc; the European qualifications pissed out of the window against Moscow and Vienna.

As I said in my original post, as none of them won a thing (Houllier probably will not), it's about the legacy they left. 6th place is only worth something if it is a stepping stone to something better; or even merely the chance of something better.

 in my view O'Neil's legacy was the worst, especially when you  take into account the resources and privileged position he enjoyed, certainly in comparison to his two  predecessors,

You may not agree with this, I am not asking you to.

It would have been interesting to have seen what Houllier would have done four years ago with a squad that included Laursen, Mellberg, Barry, Bouma and even Angel, an emerging rather than a knackered Agbonlahor plus of course the odd 100 mill or so to hit the market with.

Steve, you make some fair observations in your post. However I am 48 years old and in my lifetime we have probably finished in the top 6 on 10-12 occasions and I think that this is the first time we have done so in three consecutive seasons.

I was happy that we had some stability - MON being the first manager since Saunders to stay for 4 years I think - and the chance to move forward, as well as having a squad that would have been capable of finishing in the top 6 again this season. However you say he left no legacy and I disagree. I believe his legacy was a squad that was firmly established as 6th best in England; unfortunately too established and unable to step up a gear to 5th, never mind 4th. We have a fair number of young-ish international players and a very good academy, and I honestly went into every game under him believing we had a chance, even against the big guns, all of whom he managed to beat at least once.

I was prepared to give him another season to move us higher, partly for further stability, and unless Mourinho has a hitherto undeclared fetish for baltis, partly because I could not see a better manager who I thought would realistically come to us. I also thought Liverpool were on the wane ( I was right until Dalglish came along) and that Spurs would struggle to focus on the league and Europe (Dad, I think I got it wrong again) and that we could take advantage this season. Wishful thinking maybe....

MON had many faults - playing the way his mentor Clough did, everything focused on strapping centre halves, a big moose or two up front and tricky wide players, with no invention through the middle; a focus on being hard to beat first and foremost with pragmatic use of flair and speed; the stubborn refusal to buy foreign players unless already proven in the UK, and as a consequence of this, high transfer fees and wages. But nobody enjoyed playing against us and away games in particular were a joy, nearly as much as derby games.

Your point that 6th place last year is now worth very little is true, but that would apply if we had finished 4th, 5th or 15th too. We are where we are now, and after 29 games we are where we deserve to be.

Apologies if I sound like I want MON back. Now I just want Gerard to steer us safely through the rest of this wretched season and have a full pre-season with the players.

Goodnight.

[Lucky Eddie]

...

So if he was poor at coaching and transfer policy and we finished 6th on three consecutive seasons, with the small matter of making our first final and Wembley appearances in 10 years, are you saying he was a genius in all other areas of management to overcome these faults?

Not a genius at all. His was a pragmatic style of football that was sufficient to garner points on a regular basis. Nothing to be sniffed at, but what is that worth today?

The 6th places he achieved were creditable, but are by now worth very little. The prize money went straight through the club and into the pockets of the likes of Beye etc; the European qualifications pissed out of the window against Moscow and Vienna.

As I said in my original post, as none of them won a thing (Houllier probably will not), it's about the legacy they left. 6th place is only worth something if it is a stepping stone to something better; or even merely the chance of something better.

 in my view O'Neil's legacy was the worst, especially when you  take into account the resources and privileged position he enjoyed, certainly in comparison to his two  predecessors,

You may not agree with this, I am not asking you to.

It would have been interesting to have seen what Houllier would have done four years ago with a squad that included Laursen, Mellberg, Barry, Bouma and even Angel, an emerging rather than a knackered Agbonlahor plus of course the odd 100 mill or so to hit the market with.

Steve, you make some fair observations in your post. However I am 48 years old and in my lifetime we have probably finished in the top 6 on 10-12 occasions and I think that this is the first time we have done so in three consecutive seasons.

I was happy that we had some stability - MON being the first manager since Saunders to stay for 4 years I think - and the chance to move forward, as well as having a squad that would have been capable of finishing in the top 6 again this season. However you say he left no legacy and I disagree. I believe his legacy was a squad that was firmly established as 6th best in England; unfortunately too established and unable to step up a gear to 5th, never mind 4th. We have a fair number of young-ish international players and a very good academy, and I honestly went into every game under him believing we had a chance, even against the big guns, all of whom he managed to beat at least once.

I was prepared to give him another season to move us higher, partly for further stability, and unless Mourinho has a hitherto undeclared fetish for baltis, partly because I could not see a better manager who I thought would realistically come to us. I also thought Liverpool were on the wane ( I was right until Dalglish came along) and that Spurs would struggle to focus on the league and Europe (Dad, I think I got it wrong again) and that we could take advantage this season. Wishful thinking maybe....

MON had many faults - playing the way his mentor Clough did, everything focused on strapping centre halves, a big moose or two up front and tricky wide players, with no invention through the middle; a focus on being hard to beat first and foremost with pragmatic use of flair and speed; the stubborn refusal to buy foreign players unless already proven in the UK, and as a consequence of this, high transfer fees and wages. But nobody enjoyed playing against us and away games in particular were a joy, nearly as much as derby games.

Your point that 6th place last year is now worth very little is true, but that would apply if we had finished 4th, 5th or 15th too. We are where we are now, and after 29 games we are where we deserve to be.

Apologies if I sound like I want MON back. Now I just want Gerard to steer us safely through the rest of this wretched season and have a full pre-season with the players.

Goodnight.

That's a crackin post that our Pat.

[Pat McMahon]

Cheers Eddie. Or may I call you Lucky?

[Concrete John]

Pretty much sums up my feelings on MON's tenure also.