Something I don't understand

[London Villan]

To go back to the original point, why do players who have spent their entire lives being self-motivated and single-minded to the point of obsession suddenly lose this desire? Is it all just about money?

Without wishing to go all psychology student on you, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs talks about how motivating factors disappear once you achieve them.  The motivation to get a house disappears when you get a house, the motivation for financial security disappears when you sign a four year contract at the Villa etc.

I'm sure every players starts out wanting to be the best in the game, but I'm also confident that after a while they think, "Yeah, I'm happy being in the top hundred and being a millionaire", and the desire for personal achievement lessens as a result.

It happens the same with bands though, once they make it the creativity and energy that got them there is subdued by the bank balance. Only the ones that can continue to motivate themselves carry on being successful/creative. They are the exception rather than the rule though.

[pauliewalnuts]

We were beaten today by a team with more motivated-by-money-only players than any team in Europe. Unfortunately, they're also largely very good motivated-by-money-only players.

[Jimbo]

Players have to be happy. If they have a boss they don't like, or are being asked to do things they're not comfortable with, or don't agree with, then their game will suffer because the attitude isn't right. Then there's the ambition shown by the club. If it looks like we're setting our stall out not to compete, not to push for the Champions League by not buying the top players or paying the top wages, then it affects the mindset of the players. They think we'll be happy to settle for mediocrity, that we've given up. If players feel that their working environment is not geared for success, then they will not expect to succeed, and they will also feel that success is not expected of them. If the club shows a lack of direction, then the same lack of direction will manifest itself on the pitch. Put it all together and you've got a recipe for failure. 

[olaftab]

There is no doubt that two essential and probably only factors that matter in any chosen trade are talent and application. Those who reach the highest level in their trade have both of these in abundance. Others have both of these but to a varying degrees and that  sets the ceiling  for how far they can progress. Simply having talent withoput application  is  no good   however having  a little talent and loads of application usually takes you quite far. This comes from a hunger to succeed. A team is successfull if is has all the  different talents  required to make it work however the top team will always be the one where every individual displays an insatiable hunger for success. Success means achievment, recognition and rise in personal value.
The way  football is  working now days these 3 factors are either unattainable or given at the start.  There are only a few teams that can achieve and therefore only players playing for those teams are recognised. However the  worth of personal value is  predelivered in the form of the contract players sign. After about 20K a week it really does not matter and the fact the payment is not performance based even better.
So unless you play for those teams that are going to win everything there is no point in breaking sweat after all it's not as if you are going to get paid any less. So application is neglected.
The only players who breakout of this cycle or more to the point  not in this cycle are players of newly promoted teams. They still have the hunger, desire and the winning mentality from not so long ago. It usually takes a season and half to knock that out of them.

Footballers like any "pack" need  that winning mindset application and in the short term a good motivator can  make them believe  that they are it. However this loses it's appeal once  a team  just developing a winning minset ends up winning nothing.

That is why it was important that we won something last year after great progress in both cups, however the worst possible thing happened to us that we lost both to the teams that are seen as Winners. That convinced the players that we can not win. In fact it would have been better if we has lost in both cups to say Portsmouth or Bolton.
If you look at Saunders team, as the team developed , it started winning. To win the League cup in 75 and 77 gave us the winning mindset that evantually resulted in the League  and European titles. I would say that if we had not won those cups we would not have progressed as we did.

So Dave  the answer to your question, in my mind, is that our players have accepted their position,  their rank in the pecking order and are just about comfortable with non achievement. The only way to address this is to  remove them or install  a new motivator.

[Woofles The Wonder Dog]

Clearly I can't speak as a footballer or even a football manager (three seasons managing the joint Home Office/Met Police IT second team apart) but I have managed IT teams of various sizes for over 25 years, mostly as a Project Manager.

On every project I managed, no matter how much padding I put in beforehand the timescales always got hacked back to the point where they became almost impossible. Almost. I've never missed a deadline yet. The motivational factors involved in getting a team of programmers and analysts to do their stuff are fairly complex, but probably at root not much different to a team of footballers (with the exception that most IT geeks aren''t multi-millionaires).

But if there was one single thing to being successful I think it's getting the team to believe in their manager and that what they've been set up to do is actually achievable. If you fail to do that you will fail most of the time. You can help that belief by planning well and reducing each member's role to something as simple, understandable and achievable as possible, but you have to sell the fact that the thing is doable.

What I believe I'm seeing out there is not players not trying, but players simply not understanding their roles in the bigger picture of team tactics and possibly not believing that what they're being asked to do is achievable. It's why there are so many teams relegated that were too good to go down.

At extremes, Holloway has his team believing and each success reinforces their belief. Of course, their ultimate lack of depth and quality may find them out but in the meantime... and and at the other extreme Mourinho has his teams working to a exacting but basically simple plan where every player knows his part (or he's out the door), and he's a damn good manager. But he now only has to walk through the door and the players believe, and half the job's done.

I know that's oversimplifying, but for me belief in the manager is biggest factor.

[dave.woodhall]

So Dave  the answer to your question, in my mind, is that our players have accepted their position,  their rank in the pecking order and are just about comfortable with non achievement. The only way to address this is to  remove them or install  a new motivator.

But - and sorry to keep banging on about it - they have never in their lives before accepted their position. To get where they have, they've combined talent and application with the desire to keep improving. 

[KevinGage]

I don't think it's individual motivation vis a vis the players as individuals and what they still want to achieve in the game that's the central issue for us at present.

The personnel of most of the top sides in elite sport will generally be decent, that much is a given. The dividing line between success and failure in sport is so slight that a sense or aura, key changes or inspired decisions from a manager make all the difference.

As in any walk of life, if you have a manager or a leader of men who gets you to suspend your doubts for a second: "do this and it will work" - and then it does- you start to think actually this guy might know what he's on about.

Whether it's Pep Guardiola at Barcelona or even MON with his more limited approach to football.

When you have to listen to Gerard Houllier for any length of time -as a fan or as a player- you immediately have doubts. Those doubts become certainties when you see

*our style of play
*our defensive frailties
*our lack of goals and goal scoring chances


A few sides might be able to tolerate one of those. Only the most piss poor excuse driven outfit could attempt to justify all three.

He has to go.

[Archie]

Good point Dave, it's something that I don't understand too. When after the work we play once a week in our five-a-side football team for nothing but our pride, we always want to win, we squabble for a penalty granted, for a handball, we get angry when we are substituted, so it's impossible to understand why don't do the same our players that earn (rectius: steal) million of pounds.

[pauliewalnuts]

When after the work we play once a week in our five-a-side football team for nothing but our pride, we always want to win, we squabble for a penalty granted, for a handball, we get angry when we are substituted

But you're Italian players, everyone knows you get more passionate and emotional than English players ;-)

[curiousorange]

I remember far back in the mists of time when I was playing for my primary school team against the school that eventually took the title. We were five down, the rain was sheeting down, it was dark...I remember standing there in the middle of the pitch, screaming at my team-mates to give it one last effort, but their body language was awful. Every pass they made went awry, no shots were made, we were going through the motions. Basically, I learned that day that no matter how much effort one person makes, it means nothing if the rest of the team can't raise their game.

[sfx412]

perhaps when we have the chance to pick a fully match fit side consistently without the disenters. And play against sides more to our level things will turn in our favour.
Winning is all about belief and looking at our run there can be none. All this has been done under a new manager with new ideas and with an unsettled unfit squad.
i'm sure all the players gave their best what they didn't do was enough but sides in our position rarely do
I'm sure the same was true when we couldn't buy a win from Jan through March, was it motivation, tactics, then it certainly was not injuries.

[dicedlam]

I think nowadays its because players have manipulative bastards (agents) feeding their ego's.
Loyalty is a thing of the past, its what a club can pay them what matters most.

IMO, for all the rhetoric spouted by players, there as never been such a chasm between most clubs and its supporters.

Playing for the love of the game are days gone by. Now it is for the love of money.

[olaftab]

So Dave  the answer to your question, in my mind, is that our players have accepted their position,  their rank in the pecking order and are just about comfortable with non achievement. The only way to address this is to  remove them or install  a new motivator.

But - and sorry to keep banging on about it - they have never in their lives before accepted their position. To get where they have, they've combined talent and application with the desire to keep improving. 

Well that's it.  Up to this point they were "it". Achieving, winning, succeeding untill they got  to the summit -1 camp looked up at the west ridge  had a go slipped and fell and said no thank you we can not get to the summit . That is for "special" people.
The secret is how do we make them  still belive and feel special without actually getting to the  top by winning something?

[Villa'Zawg]

Players have to be happy. If they have a boss they don't like, or are being asked to do things they're not comfortable with, or don't agree with, then their game will suffer because the attitude isn't right. Then there's the ambition shown by the club. If it looks like we're setting our stall out not to compete, not to push for the Champions League by not buying the top players or paying the top wages, then it affects the mindset of the players. They think we'll be happy to settle for mediocrity, that we've given up. If players feel that their working environment is not geared for success, then they will not expect to succeed, and they will also feel that success is not expected of them. If the club shows a lack of direction, then the same lack of direction will manifest itself on the pitch. Put it all together and you've got a recipe for failure. 

That's a cracking post.

[London Villan]

Today was pretty much a first choice 11 and we were embarrassing and appalling in equal measures.