The wide men

[Mazrim]

Oh dear. I didn't miss out Deschamps, that water carrier that won practically everything. And many of those players are still playing although what relevance that is to whether such a position exists is anybodys guess. I mentioned "greats of yore" to emphasise the point that the position does exist.

And what point did I miss?
You said there's no such thing as a defensive midfielder and then go on to say that the job has always been there. Eh?
I agree though, its nothing new. A job once called sweeper, anchorman, holding player and of course, defensive midfielder.

A winger or wide midfielder is a midfielder with a specific job. Is that role a figment of peoples imagination too?
Modern football is often played with holding midfielders and dedicated attacking midfielders now and often one striker. It used to be 4-4-2 with two central midfielders with similar roles. Not so much the trend now though.

And of course, just because a player is an attacking midfielder, it doesnt mean he doesnt help out in defence but its not his dedicated role. Thats why there are such terms as attacking midfielder, defensive midfielder, playmaker, winger, striker and tactics to utilise them. It defines their roles rather than having 11 autonomous players on the field.

[KevinGage]

If you have two wide players, like many have said, you're going to leave a central two exposed just because of sheer geography. If you want to play two wide players, you have to have three central players in some fashion - 4-5-1, 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1 or whatever else you can think of - just because of literal space issues.

Monty, thats all very well and good when we have the players to play those systems, but unfortunately, some of our key players are missing through injury. I would also point out that I would rather watch us playing 442, as in the second half against Arsenal, and also the last 15 minutes against Blues, and have a go, rather than try to over complicate the tactis and watch dire football.

In general I'd agree with the initial point that a standard 4-4-2 leaves too many gaps in the modern game. But Tottingham and Liverpool both gave a first class example yesterday as to why the formation still has merit.

As always, it's about the personnel.

But I'm quickly coming round to the idea that it wouldn't matter what formation we play at present with the current form of our defenders.

You could argue that they're more exposed because of the kids but that doesn't explain rank bad and stupid individual errors, of which there have been plenty since about the Newcastle game onwards this season.

[Concrete John]

You could argue that they're more exposed because of the kids but that doesn't explain rank bad and stupid individual errors, of which there have been plenty since about the Newcastle game onwards this season.

In some ways it can.

If teams are 'getting at' our back 4 then that means they have more to do and sometimes it's make or break challenges.  If Collins or Dunne lunge in then that's their error, but the fact they had that problem was the opposition run not being held up by a midfielder knowing where he should be.

Not saying the defence is playing well, but I wouldn't be surprised to see their form improve once Petrov and/or NRC are back fit and in the side. 

[Bosco81]

Tottenham seem to be disproving the theory that 4-4-2 is dead, and with the strength we have in the wide areas they are a side we should be trying to emulate, it's not like their full backs are particularly strong, and they haven't got their first choice centre halves fit at present either.

Perhaps the reason we seem to be exposed is the fact that we are playing too deep, worried about the relative lack of pace we have at the back, Curtis Davies could be an answer to that if he has worked out how to clear a ball without slicing it.

[peter w]

Oh dear. I didn't miss out Deschamps, that water carrier that won practically everything. And many of those players are still playing although what relevance that is to whether such a position exists is anybodys guess. I mentioned "greats of yore" to emphasise the point that the position does exist.

And what point did I miss?
You said there's no such thing as a defensive midfielder and then go on to say that the job has always been there. Eh?
I agree though, its nothing new. A job once called sweeper, anchorman, holding player and of course, defensive midfielder.

A winger or wide midfielder is a midfielder with a specific job. Is that role a figment of peoples imagination too?
Modern football is often played with holding midfielders and dedicated attacking midfielders now and often one striker. It used to be 4-4-2 with two central midfielders with similar roles. Not so much the trend now though.

And of course, just because a player is an attacking midfielder, it doesnt mean he doesnt help out in defence but its not his dedicated role. Thats why there are such terms as attacking midfielder, defensive midfielder, playmaker, winger, striker and tactics to utilise them. It defines their roles rather than having 11 autonomous players on the field.

I referred to the term. That is only a modern Prem day thing. The player has always been there to do the job. I've said it enough times, inculding in the original post. Roles get changed throughout the history of the game and where they are supposed to be tactically, but a midfielder is still a midfielder. Those in the centre  and those wide. Wingers are very rarely that anymore as they are expected to be up and down the flank all day like a 100 meter sprinter, but there is no such thing as a defensive midfield position.

When watching many a game its amazing to see people think, and some lower standards sides play with the 'attacking' midfielder standing in front of the 'defensive' midfielder and thinking that's how the position is meant to be played. Its not. The shape is the same but the name is different for the job that you described above.

[KevinGage]

You could argue that they're more exposed because of the kids but that doesn't explain rank bad and stupid individual errors, of which there have been plenty since about the Newcastle game onwards this season.

In some ways it can.

If teams are 'getting at' our back 4 then that means they have more to do and sometimes it's make or break challenges.  If Collins or Dunne lunge in then that's their error, but the fact they had that problem was the opposition run not being held up by a midfielder knowing where he should be.

Not saying the defence is playing well, but I wouldn't be surprised to see their form improve once Petrov and/or NRC are back fit and in the side. 

Only problem with that was both of those two were involved when we played Newcastle and Stoke away. This dodgy spell defensively predates their absence.

[ozzjim]

For me when fit I would play a 4-5-1 with Clark, Bannan and Reo Coker in the centre of midfield, and Downing left with Young right. Then when fit, I would bring Albrighton into the mix, rotating with the other 2 wingers. One thing is certain though, Ashley Young needs to pull his finger out or we need to sell him before his value plummets. He looked sullky on the left and innefective down the middle against Arsenal, while Downing always looks much better on the left than the right. Young just does not seem to have the youthful exuberance to trick players as much as he once did, and look half the player he did 18 months ago.

[Mazrim]

So peter, and I cant quite believe I'm still engaging you in this nonsense, how would you describe a central midfielder who is tasked to screen the back 4, to limit his attacks in order to cover against counter attacks and/or to track the oppositions "attacking" midfielders or forwards who are dropping off in front of the defence (the hole)?

[Concrete John]

You could argue that they're more exposed because of the kids but that doesn't explain rank bad and stupid individual errors, of which there have been plenty since about the Newcastle game onwards this season.

In some ways it can.

If teams are 'getting at' our back 4 then that means they have more to do and sometimes it's make or break challenges.  If Collins or Dunne lunge in then that's their error, but the fact they had that problem was the opposition run not being held up by a midfielder knowing where he should be.

Not saying the defence is playing well, but I wouldn't be surprised to see their form improve once Petrov and/or NRC are back fit and in the side. 

Only problem with that was both of those two were involved when we played Newcastle and Stoke away. This dodgy spell defensively predates their absence.

NRC didn't start the game actually and came on for Carew once the damage was done - our starting central two were Petrov and Ireland.  As it goes I don't think we can read anything into that game as it was an bit of a freak result.

[KevinGage]

Of the top of my head they were involved and playing CM in both of those games I mentioned plus Tottenham (where Dunne was caught ball watching) and Sunderland away (where Dunne scored an OG).

If we had been looking like a solid, competent side up until the Fulham away match and only started slipping up when the likes of Bannan and Clark were in midfield the argument would have a bit more merit. But we were getting rolled over long before the absence of Petrov and NRC.

Maybe the sheer volume of goals v Newcastle was a freak. Nobody can say for certain yet as we're less than halfway through the campaign. If we're hit with a few more 4 goal/6 goal reversals between now and the end of the season then it would be hard to argue it was a blip, a bad day at the office.

What wasn't a freak occurrence that day is a shoddy defensive performance.
24 goals against already this year, almost on a par with the likes of Wigan and West Ham.

It's a definite achilles heel at the moment and it needs to be addressed.

[Mazrim]

It's not so much an Achilles heel as an Audley Harrison face.

And I think Dunne is largely to blame. His form has been wretched and his mind seems to be on Carew Island, which unfortunately is nowhere near Villa Park.

Christ, we need an overhaul and soon. Whilst he signed some good players, a lot of the fat from MONs era needs to be trimmed off.

[Risso]

It's not so much an Achilles heel as an Audley Harrison face.

And I think Dunne is largely to blame. His form has been wretched and his mind seems to be on Carew Island, which unfortunately is nowhere near Villa Park.

Christ, we need an overhaul and soon. Whilst he signed some good players, a lot of the fat from MONs era needs to be trimmed off.

I agree Maz.    A massive overhaul is needed, and I wouldn't be averse to seeing any or all of our current back four moving on.  Young, Collins, Dunne and Warnock have all been making mistakes for far too long now.

[KevinGage]

Speaking to some Citeh fans I know they say motivation has been an issue for him in the past.

When he'd fired up and raring to go he's an asset, as we seen last year. I don't know how much of that good form was down to proving a point to Garry Cook and co. but he had obviously wanted to give it a go at Citeh even with all their big new names on board and arrived back for pre season 09/10 in good shape. We benefited from that.

This summer he arrived back and looked a mess. How much of that being down to motivation or how much of it was down to being restricted in what he could do because of the re-emergence of a longstanding knee injury I'm not sure.

In fairness he looked a bit better in the game v Blackburn and wasn't directly at fault for the four goals Arsenal ran up. But as a team we have become used to not winning, the momentum for that coming from our start to the season when Dunne was all over the shop and directly responsible for a fair few of the goals we shipped.

[Mazrim]

I'd at least blame him for the Chamakh goal. But as much Friedel too, who also looks like that bit of sharpness that you cant help but lose when you age is departing him. A new keeper is becoming more of an issue.

I'd keep Luke Young and Warnock around but look for first choice fullbacks soon and I'd keep Collins around as cover and make Cuellar first choice as soon as he's fit again. Dunne might be first of the defenders on his way out and will need replacing. With Davies or perhaps a new player.
Beye can go too and Lichaj should be first reserve fullback cover.

It sounds a bit drastic perhaps but I cant help but feel that a new era is upon us and a new impetus is required.
More revolution than I had previously thought required but it makes sense under scrutiny. A lot of these players have been here a few years now and are a bit stale so it needs freshening up.
I dont know how far the resources can stretch to make that happen or even if Houllier agrees although I suspect he might.

By next summer I think the sqaud will have to be something like:

*New #1 keeper*, Friedel, Guzan, Parish or Siegrist as #2 and #3.
*New right back*, L Young, Lichaj, *New left back*, Warnock, Lowry.
*New centre half, Cuellar, Clark, Collins, Davies? Williams.
Albrighton, Downing, A Young, Carruthers, Bannan, Delph, Gardner, *New defensive midfielder*, Reo Coker, Johnson, Petrov, Ireland?
*New powerful striker*, Agbonlahor, Heskey, Delfouneso, Weimann

So goodbye to: Carew, Beye, Dunne, possibly Davies, Sidwell, possibly Ireland if he doesnt get his act together, Pires, Salifou, Osbourne, (dont know about Hogg and Herd yet but have my doubts).


So out go the likes of Carew, Beye, Dunne, Friedel (as first choice).
So that's six as a neccessity as I see it. Before any of the other players feel they have to move on. Will Warnock accept the challenge? Is Petrov still fit to start and would he stay if not? etc.

We'll probably get half of them in January.

[Merv]

It's amazing - and rather alarming - how many stalwarts of last season suddenly look vulnerable and with futures that are less than clear at the Villa. I'd like to be able to blame our current deficiencies in midfield on the number of defensive mistakes - ie, defence being put under pressure because we've got an inexperienced midfield at present - but actually, there are some very basic mistakes being made.

It's no exaggeration - well, perhaps a slight one - to say, with some justification, that we could almost need a new first choice back five come next season. If the current lot don't perk up.