Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine

Off Topic => Sports Arena => Topic started by: UK Redsox on September 03, 2019, 01:27:35 PM

Title: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: UK Redsox on September 03, 2019, 01:27:35 PM
Hopefully this will mean the start of the return of Hartpury to their proper place in the rugby union hierarchy from the false level partially created by their arrangement with Gloucester

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/gloucester-rugby-announces-leave-hartpury-3279183
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: UK Redsox on September 07, 2019, 06:43:30 PM
I crossed the Wye, Severn and Avon today to watch Lydney play Keynsham.

After a decent first half, leading 9-3, our set pieces fell apart in the second period and we lost 21-12

Itís depressing to watch Lyd playing at this low a level
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: UK Redsox on September 21, 2019, 08:33:39 PM
The not so mightily Lyd won their first game of the season today, a 20-12 victory over Newent.

Still difficult to comprehend that our 1st XV now play Newent. I used to play for our 3rd XV against their 1sts
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: Risso on October 04, 2019, 10:53:44 PM
Have just got back from a charity quiz at Northampton.  Really good fun, with one player from the side on each table.  We had Saints captain Alex Waller on ours, and he was a really nice lad. Came second out of about 50 teams.  We'd probably have won, but the round on rugby was our undoing as none of us knew very much about it, including Alex.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: UK Redsox on October 18, 2019, 08:03:50 PM
Bristol looking pretty impressive at the start against Bath.

Nathan Hughes looks like being a great signing
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: paul_e on October 18, 2019, 08:16:41 PM
Bath in front now though and it was an excellent try from Mercer (who looks determined to show he should be in Japan).
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: UK Redsox on October 18, 2019, 09:38:16 PM
 Turned into a bit of a romp for Bristol in the end
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: paul_e on October 18, 2019, 10:31:23 PM
Bristol played some great rugby in the last 20, they've benefited massively from not losing many players to the world cup. That said the Bath defending was shocking at times.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: nigel on October 23, 2019, 09:22:18 PM
Bristol played some great rugby in the last 20, they've benefited massively from not losing many players to the world cup. That said the Bath defending was shocking at times.

The World Cup could make this years premiership interesting.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: paul_e on October 23, 2019, 10:25:50 PM
Bristol played some great rugby in the last 20, they've benefited massively from not losing many players to the world cup. That said the Bath defending was shocking at times.

The World Cup could make this years premiership interesting.

I agree, I think Sarries and Chiefs will be fine and make the playoffs pretty easily, I suspect saints will join them (on the basis that the 2nd half of last season they were really strong and they have some exceptional young players filling in whilst the internationals get back) but after that things could be really messy. I think Tigers might really struggle again because they haven't really addressed the problems from last year and they've got a lot of players who haven't had pre-season with them.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: UK Redsox on October 25, 2019, 09:32:18 PM
An old fashioned West Country derby in wet and heavy contains at the Rec tonight.

Bath looking to hang on against Exeter

Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: paul_e on November 05, 2019, 11:25:11 AM
In the latest round of evidence that Rugby is better run than football ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50300756

short version, sarries docked 35 points for repeatedly ignoring the salary cap and setting up fake companies to pay well over the normal amounts to their better players.

I can't see it being enough to see them go down but they're definitely going to be in the battle at the bottom now.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: paul_e on November 07, 2019, 01:22:58 PM
Hartley has announced his retirement, I think that was inevitable after the injuries, shame he didn't get a last world cup but pleased for him that he got to captain England. I know he had disciplinary issues but his commitment and desire were fantastic and he's always come across as a good guy, he was also a far better player than he gets credit for and was a much better captain than anyone else since Johnno.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: Risso on November 07, 2019, 03:11:24 PM
He's a top lad.  Going to get him along to a Villa match this season.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on November 07, 2019, 06:57:15 PM
Just seen on the news that he spent 50 weeks of his career being banned for fighting, gouging and biting.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: paul_e on November 07, 2019, 07:41:57 PM
It was across 6 bans:
2 weeks for swinging a punch (in retaliation for being punched, other guy got 1 week).
3 weeks for an elbow (which was fair).
4 weeks for a headbutt (which made the Dublin one on Savage look aggressive).
then you get the big ones:
8 weeks for biting Sean o'Brian's Stephen Ferris' finger because he'd grabbed him by the mouth to pull him out of a ruck (o'Brian was a different ban for 6 weeks that I forgot about).
11 weeks for saying fucking cheat whilst looking at Tom Youngs but in hearing range of Wayne Barnes who decided it was aimed at him.
26 weeks for a eye-gouge, which was perfectly fair.

For me the 11 weeks was bullshit, without having any certainty of who it was aimed at (and Hartley admitting it was said to Youngs because of something he'd done in the scrum just before it happened) giving a ban which forced him out of the lions tour was completely unnecessary and then the 8 weeks was far too long given the circumstances so I reckon 15-16 of those weeks were entirely on reputation rather than punishing the 'crime'.


Really I just hope that's not what the press decide to focus on when talking about his retirement, he's doesn't deserve that.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: Jon Crofts on November 07, 2019, 07:52:02 PM
Ah the dark arts of the front row.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: Dante Lavelli on November 07, 2019, 07:54:35 PM
I think he is one of those players that you want on your team but otherwise youíd hate him.  Jones alluded to the fact that he was not the best English hooker but he was needed in the team because of his leadership qualities (Farrell appears to be a similar character).

Pretty sure that all people inside the game would say the same

Full disclosure: Iím a saints fan.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: UK Redsox on November 18, 2019, 12:51:29 PM
Saracens are not going to contest the penalties

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50457698
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: paul_e on November 18, 2019, 03:05:04 PM
Saracens are not going to contest the penalties

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50457698

I have a suspicion that someone has pointed out that they're bang to rights after years or warnings and the specific rule allows for a much harsher penalty than they got (including automatic relegation and having titles stripped). They'll stay up with this so just take a season where their only aim is to push for the top 6 and come back stronger next year. Appealing would've been very stupid and unnecessarily risky.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: Jon Crofts on November 19, 2019, 11:18:14 AM
Could have a huge impact on 6N with Sarries players opting to stick with club rugby to ensure Premiership status over England & 6N.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: paul_e on November 19, 2019, 12:01:40 PM
Could have a huge impact on 6N with Sarries players opting to stick with club rugby to ensure Premiership status over England & 6N.

There used to be a rule where teams could be punished if their players didn't report for England without good reason (i.e. injury or international retirement). I don't know if it still exists and I don't know England would enforce it even it does in this case but I'd personally consider those players unavailable for selection for longer than just the 6N if they went down this route. The key now is to build towards the next world cup anyway so spreading a few caps around wouldn't be a bad thing, even if we lose a few more games.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: paul_e on November 24, 2019, 01:50:13 PM
Sale v La Rochelle has just seen one of the most stupid red cards ever so La Rochelle are currently down to 13.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: paul_e on November 24, 2019, 04:41:12 PM
And here is the red card from earlier - https://www.rugbydump.com/news/watch-red-card-for-crazy-eye-gouge-on-england-star-in-champions-cup?fbclid=IwAR2_5uJJGRoAu0v33EBVVO8PeNUKudrrqEocDsOY50AS-9dq6YSZPly07ek

Moving on, the Gloucester game has been great so far, 2 very good sides smashing the shit out of each other.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: paul_e on November 24, 2019, 04:49:24 PM
I posted too soon, literally seconds later Montpellier decided to out do La Rochelle in the self-destruction stakes and had a lock given a red for a series of elbows to the face in a maul, most of them were fairly tame and would've been overlooked so on about the 4th attempt he made sure of the red card. Truly pathetic.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: paul_e on November 25, 2019, 01:28:10 PM
Forget to mention this on Saturday, this is pure filth from Finn Russell -
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: UK Redsox on November 26, 2019, 04:48:00 PM
Last weekend....... Lydney 71, Crediton 9

It's been a long time since we gave anyone a hammering like that :)
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: Dante Lavelli on November 30, 2019, 04:25:07 PM
Saints are playing some great rugby against Leicester.  Itís slightly odd seeing seasoned England internationals being taught a lesson by a load of Saints players that have recently graduated from their development side.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: paul_e on November 30, 2019, 11:53:28 PM
Saints are playing some great rugby against Leicester.  Itís slightly odd seeing seasoned England internationals being taught a lesson by a load of Saints players that have recently graduated from their development side.

Missed this one because I was at warriors vs sale (which was decided by a red card). I've heard Saints were very good today though.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: Risso on December 07, 2019, 11:49:28 AM
Off to the Saints game today, will report back from the egg ball later.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: Dante Lavelli on December 08, 2019, 05:57:45 PM
Off to the Saints game today, will report back from the egg ball later.

I watched most of the game on BT Sport.  Weird game, Saints looked threatening but made too many mistakes in attacking positions.  Conversely Leinster were absolutely ruthless. 

Saints are a joy to watch, a combination of youthful naivety and a manager that encourages the team to play an expansive game.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: paul_e on December 08, 2019, 06:24:35 PM
Off to the Saints game today, will report back from the egg ball later.

I watched most of the game on BT Sport.  Weird game, Saints looked threatening but made too many mistakes in attacking positions.  Conversely Leinster were absolutely ruthless. 

Saints are a joy to watch, a combination of youthful naivety and a manager that encourages the team to play an expansive game.

yeah, they're probably a year away from being able to compete with teams like Leinster when the latter are 'on it'. The saints backline yesterday was interesting, lots of very good players in there but Alex Mitchell, Grayson (but he did make the bench), Dingwall, Furbank and Sleightholme all left out for various reasons. Personally Sleights would be on the bench almost every week, Furbank would start ahead of Tuala and Mitchell would also make the bench. That means no place for Dingwall though, which is a great shame because he's quality.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: Risso on December 08, 2019, 09:44:23 PM
Weird game, didnít feel like a 30 point hammering. Saints defence was shite first half but they should still have gone into the break ahead. After the break they had loads of the ball in attacking positions but made too many errors. Then Leinster ran riot.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: UK Redsox on December 20, 2019, 10:40:41 PM
Impressive second half from Gloucester in the Severn derby.

That Zammo kid on the wing looks quite a prospect.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: paul_e on December 21, 2019, 08:42:19 AM
Impressive second half from Gloucester in the Severn derby.

That Zammo kid on the wing looks quite a prospect.

He's got some gas. Glaws were frustrating last night, first half was some of the most wasteful rugby I've seen in years but then Mills got a yellow for Warriors and suddenly glaws started looking like a professional team in the 22.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: Gareth on January 16, 2020, 09:51:27 PM
Sounds like Saracens saga is about to take a huge turn.....
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: paul_e on January 16, 2020, 11:12:00 PM
Sounds like Saracens saga is about to take a huge turn.....

Liam Williams is probably leaving in the next couple of weeks and I wouldn't be surprised in 3-4 more follow, Calum Clark and Michael Rhodes are definitely on their way and I've hear da rumour that they're trying to shift Kruis asap as well.

After the ridiculous response of taking it to appeal, etc after the initial punishment I'm glad they're now actually taking this seriously. A little humility will go a long way to rebuilding their reputation but I still think their victories in the last 3-4 years all have to be viewed as flawed from now on because this is something that has been reached quickly or by accident. There were whispers of them being warned about their salary expenditure 8-9 years ago and they just kept making big money signings and adding to an already massive squad.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: Gareth on January 16, 2020, 11:27:59 PM
It is good that they might get a proper punishment felt kind of hollow that they were still likely to finish around the lower European qualifier places & be ready to go again next season - there will be some DoRís looking at recruitment strategies for next season with a few proven stars on the market.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: hilts_coolerking on January 17, 2020, 05:36:26 PM
I don't follow domestic rugby that much so what I don't understand is how it took so long to question how Saracens were winning trophy after trophy by having a big squad of well-paid, valuable star players in excess of what most other clubs had without breaking the salary cap.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: paul_e on January 17, 2020, 06:22:19 PM
I don't follow domestic rugby that much so what I don't understand is how it took so long to question how Saracens were winning trophy after trophy by having a big squad of well-paid, valuable star players in excess of what most other clubs had without breaking the salary cap.

The simple answer is that they had a wage that was inline with the cap but in addition many were registered as co-owners of companies with the chairman and they got profits from those, one of the main arguments was over how those profits were generated with evidence showing it related to performance bonuses and image rights, both of which are supposed to be included within the cap. The rumour I've seen (and I don't know how accurate it is) is that the overspend when everything is accounted for was something about 30%. If that's correct then the 35 point deduction and fine was incredibly lenient. I think that would account for some of the comments from other clubs at the time as well.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: hilts_coolerking on January 17, 2020, 06:29:56 PM
The simple answer is that they had a wage that was inline with the cap but in addition many were registered as co-owners of companies with the chairman and they got profits from those, one of the main arguments was over how those profits were generated with evidence showing it related to performance bonuses and image rights, both of which are supposed to be included within the cap. The rumour I've seen (and I don't know how accurate it is) is that the overspend when everything is accounted for was something about 30%. If that's correct then the 35 point deduction and fine was incredibly lenient. I think that would account for some of the comments from other clubs at the time as well.
I see.  Ta.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: aev on January 17, 2020, 07:08:13 PM
Guardian reckon they are £2m over for this season and are getting another 35 pt penalty.

Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: paul_e on January 17, 2020, 09:31:30 PM
Guardian reckon they are £2m over for this season and are getting another 35 pt penalty.

That pretty much lines up with the 30% I'd heard. I think they're fucked if I'm honest, premiership rugby has to show it's teeth given the apparent lack of effort from Sarries to react to the first deduction.
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: nigel on January 19, 2020, 05:28:35 PM
Will be interesting where the top players end up now relegation is certain.
Get a couple down Worcester  :D
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: taylorsworkrate on January 19, 2020, 10:09:07 PM
The worry is how it could affect the England team. Saracens clearly have players who will be integral to the England set up moving forward. Is it feasible for them to move to other English clubs? Or will it be a case of them moving abroad and the RFU suspending its rules around non domestic players not being eligible for these players?
Title: Re: Domestic and European Rugby Union - 2019/20
Post by: paul_e on January 19, 2020, 10:47:21 PM
The worry is how it could affect the England team. Saracens clearly have players who will be integral to the England set up moving forward. Is it feasible for them to move to other English clubs? Or will it be a case of them moving abroad and the RFU suspending its rules around non domestic players not being eligible for these players?

I think it may help rather than hinder, for all their club success the brand of rugby Sarries play won't bring you world cups. I suspect a few of the older ones (Kruis for example) may decide to move for the money rather than take a pay cut, which is fair and I suspect a few will try to follow the leadof Wilson and arrange a season away on loan. It's the younger players who are breaking through that are most interesting. Kpoku has already moved to saints for next year, it will be interesting to see if the likes of Lozowski, Earl and Malins agree to put their international ambitions on hold for a year to get them back up.