Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: OzVilla on September 01, 2019, 07:29:19 AM
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So 10% of the season gone, played a top 4 side, a side looking to break into top 6 and 2 sides that you’d expect we’d be competing to stay up with. P4-W1-L3.
We’ve not had much luck but that’s still a disappointing return. We needed to get off to a good start, we haven’t and at times we’ve looked naive. So anybody starting to get worried yet?
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Well it's not been a great start, but we have, through necessity, assembled a new squad and they need some time to work cohesively. If the next four yield the same return, I think you would have to become concerned - but to be honest I'm not really a great fan of this bullshit , super hyperbolic venal, greedy grasping league anyway.MOTD says it all - cnuts.
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No. There are teams with much worse team work, ethic and spirit than us so we’ll be fine. Much to improve but we have a talented manager and squad with much to learn. Early days and all that.
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It's been deflating to lose 3 out of the 4 and given the scars of our recent history there is the nagging concern that we could go weeks, months without winning again. I think these are the natural emotions of the football fan. Logic tells me there are 34 games to go so there is no need to worry. If last season taught us anything it is that teams can transform their level of performance hugely within a season. So I'm going to be positive. On to the next one (shame it's 2 weeks away)
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Not yet - much depends if we can stay in striking distance of 17th. We can buy in jan if needed. If we continue with the commitment I’m sure we’ll get better. If we’re still in the bottom 3 at Xmas I’ll worry.
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No. Expected 4 maybe 5 points at this stage.
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No.
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No, wanted a win and a draw from Everton and Palace. Which we should have had.
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Worried no. Depressed? Yes.
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Not at all. We will only get better
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Yes. We’re not going to score enough goals, and we’re way too lightweight in midfield.
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Another point would have been nice as if we can average 2 points per game we will stay up but it’s not terrible and still early days.
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We have a capable squad I would like DS to make changes early when players are not performing.
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No not worried I’ve seen enough to know we are good enough to reach mid table at least
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Worried? A little bit. Pissed off? More than a little bit.
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36 points seems a long way away.
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Worried? Not in the slightest, not after 4 games anyway. We'll improve as the season goes on.
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36 points seems a long way away.
As it does for many clubs, we’re one point from 10th place.
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I'll be worried if we haven't picked up a few points by the conclusion of the Brighton game. We have a run of mostly horrible looking games after that.
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We've a lot of learning to come as individuals, team and club throughout this season. Some of that is going to be painful.I do think that the club is now set up to accommodate it and progress though. So not worried but expecting a tough season with regular lows and a few highs.
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We have a capable squad I would like DS to make changes early when players are not performing.
This for me. He doesn’t react when we’re under the cosh and he should have subbed Tres at half time yesterday as he was booked and playing crap
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If we had come up after being out of this League for more than say 10 years no one would worry about the current state however we are burdened with recent experience and that is making people keeping looking towards loo door.
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I am but then I worry about everything Villa related.
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Another point would have been nice as if we can average 2 points per game we will stay up but it’s not terrible and still early days.
2 points per game we''d be going for the Champions' League!
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No. We would be equal 11th and happy campers if it wasn't for that shocking/disgraceful decision yesterday.
With more new players than any other side in the league we have loads of room for development and can only improve as the season progresses.
Would help immensely if Friend was banned from officiating at any future Villa matches and also prevent him from inciting a possible riot. >:(
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The Bournemouth result is the one thats really fucked us to this point. My early thoughts going into the International break is that it's going to be close. I agree with Risso, specifically for me we need a player that can really protect the defence in that defensive midfield role and i think we need wide attacking players that will really stretch the opposition defence and score goals. These are the 2 areas that are letting us down the most. I actually think that the midfielders we have are good enough but we don't specifically have a real breaker up of play in there, a younger and 'premier league standard version' of Jedinak for example. Trezeguet has a lot of potential and should improve over time but we still look like we need more (and better) options in those positions as well. The ball comes back way too easily from those areas, this is a problem that has remained from last season.
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I’m still 50/50. Yesterday felt like a bad one partly because we were robbed at the end, partly because of the way we let them back into the game both halves.
But I said before the game a draw was a good result, 4 points from 4 would have been good based on the fixtures, and we only missed out on being in that position through incompetent reffing.
Win next game in convincing fashion and we’re back where we should be, lose and it starts to look dicey.
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Yes, 4 or certainly 5 points would have been a solid start. As it is we have 3, although it really should have been 4 after yesterday even if we didn't deserve it. If we go all season a point or two short of target for each set of games we're going to be running it close.
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I think we need to run at a point a game all season so until we get a win behind that I’m not concerned. Home form will be key of course, and the Bournemouth freak has hurt us, after a Arsenal away hopefully we should be 6 for 6. Any points picked up away will be bonus... yesterday should have been one.
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Yes, 4 or certainly 5 points would have been a solid start. As it is we have 3, although it really should have been 4 after yesterday even if we didn't deserve it. If we go all season a point or two short of target for each set of games we're going to be running it close.
Yep. If we’re a point or two off a run rate of one per game we can easily make that up with a good run. Given the rebuild over the summer we’re likely to get better as the season develops as long as we don’t get into a losing mentality.
Good leadership and squad togetherness are key and I have a lot of faith in both those aspects.
Yesterday might have been a blessing in disguise. Getting robbed by the ref is better mentally than losing fairly after a poor performance and brain fart from trezeguet.
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I don’t think the situation would be looking as bad if Newcastle hadn’t of beaten spurs and palace hadn’t of beaten united. Trezeguet concerns me. Jota Abs El Ghazi have had some sort of impact on games where as he seems to just be taking every opportunity to go to the floor. He just doesn’t look the threat I thought he would. I still don’t see the value in signing Konsa instead of say Maupay was. As somebody else put, we look a striker to light and a centre half to heavy. I also think that after spending £130 million on 12 new players, to fall short of getting another striker/winger for say £15-£20 million doesn’t make sense. If the money was an issue, why not use the loan market like Bournemouth did for Wilson?
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We have a capable squad I would like DS to make changes early when players are not performing.
This for me. He doesn’t react when we’re under the cosh and he should have subbed Tres at half time yesterday as he was booked and playing crap
Make of this what you will.
The goal conceded away against Palace was in the 73rd minute
The 1st goal conceded away this season was v Spurs also in the 73rd minute.
The Premier league season so far :
Between minutes 31st to 70th minute there has been no goal scored or conceded by Villa.
It's a small sample of data as only 4 matches but interesting nonetheless.
Villa have scored 50% of goals in first 30 minutes of matches and 50% from 70th minute to 90th of matches .
Scored:
Spurs 9'
Bournemouth 71'
Everton 21' 90'
Villa have conceded 36% of goals in first 30 minutes and conceded 64% of goals from 70th to 90th minute.
Goals conceded minutes
Bournemouth 1' 12'
Palace 73'
Spurs 73' 86' 90'
Similar pattern In league cup tend to have goals be it for or against in first half hour of a match or in final 20 minutes.
Aston Villa scored v Crewe
4 ' 24' 45' 69' 76' minutes), Grealish (87' minutes)
And conceded '84
I would make the following of that:
We support a team of 11 blokes who play on a bit of grass in Birmingham and we try to kick a ball into a net more times in about an hour and a half than another team of 11 blokes who are trying to kick the same ball into another net more times than us.
But then statistical analysis never was my strong point.
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I was going off trezeguet before yesterday. I don’t think he’s done enough justify a starting place. Lot of swagger without backing it up has had all our best chances this season and not taken them, Bolasie style.
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Yeah, i only skimmed through it but it's a bit early in the season for all that bollocks.
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No. Not worried.
The squad and coaching staff are capable of ensuring the club stays up.
UTV
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I’m not worried on the basis of results so far. I was worried before the season started and will continue to be until the end of the season because despite having a fantastic manager, owners and set up generally, we came up as the 3rd best team (by quite a long way) and you can’t transform anything overnight.
Also let’s not kid ourselves, for all the hyperbolic Sky and BBC ‘Premier League’ crap nearly all the teams in this league are bloody good and some may as well be off a different planet. So I don’t buy this ‘Palace and Bournemouth are nothing special, we should be hammering the likes of them’ stuff.
It’s going to be a battle in every game and as far as I can see , we have battled in every one so far. When we stop doing that, I will really start to get concerned.
In the meantime UTV !!
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I will start to worry if we lose to West Ham.
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I've been worried since we got whacked at Newcastle in 2010 and I'm hardly about to stop now.
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No, not worried at all.
It's a long season and they'll be a lot of ups and downs.
We'll be OK.
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I was going off trezeguet before yesterday. I don’t think he’s done enough justify a starting place. Lot of swagger without backing it up has had all our best chances this season and not taken them, Bolasie style.
Not worried at the moment, but agree with this. The one player I have a real concern about at the moment. This theratrical chucking himself on the floor every time he's barely touched really boils my piss. He's done it several times, correctly been laughed at by officials, and then leaves us open to a counter attack.
Actually thought he was unlucky with his first yellow where the Palace lad made a complete meal of very little contact. The second was just ridiculous, especially as our friend couldn't wait to get the red card out.
Hopefully his form, involvement and attitude will improve a lot, because we really need it to.
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I know what you mean.
However, i think this team was always going to need 5/6 games to properly gel, and I still think that is the case.
Having said that, seeing us in the relegation places, even after only a few games, does make me uncomfortable.
I've seen enough so far to be positive about, we just need to start losing fewer games, and try not to panic in the meantime.
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Yes. We’re not going to score enough goals, and we’re way too lightweight in midfield.
I'm not in panic mode but this has definitely crossed my mind more than once.
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Not worried but Dean has to get a grip of his tactics - yesterday was all wrong and to survive in this league we first have to exercise control in midfield. Playing Jota, McGinn, and Grealish in the same side, away, is a mistake (that three leave us too light in terms bossing midfield) and as a result Palace largely were on the front foot for very large parts of the game. The fact we only lost 1-0 says much about our defense and their terrible attack.
Hourihane and Marvelous alongside Luiz in midfield would significantly strengthen the core. Then we need our FB to supply the ammo which means Taylor has to give way.
If we lose to WH, our confidence may really start to plummet.
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Nope.
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I was worried before the season started and I'm still worried now. Not because of anything that's happened on the pitch, just because it was always going to be very difficult this season and we had particular disadvantages in having signed so many new and inexperienced players. I said at the start that I'd take 17th like a shot, and I still would. I think we'll stay up but I suspect it won't be by much. A striker in January will help tremendously.
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If Everton can shove +3 up wolves today we’ll be back out the relegation zone.
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Yes, and for the same reasons as Risso.
But then I was born worried so plus ca change.
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No, we've played four games.Stupid mistakes have cost us but I think we've played well except yesterday.
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Yes, but always are when it comes to Villa.
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It will all be about our home games and if we can smash 30 points from them and pick up 10/12 away we will be fine
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If Everton can shove +3 up wolves today we’ll be back out the relegation zone.
I would love it, just love it, if this happened.
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Like some others have said, I’m worried, but only in the way that has been pretty much the default for the whole of my Villa-supporting life.
I wrote on the post-match thread that we lost the game yesterday because of a poor decision, and can be overly self-critical. Teams win games all the time that they don’t deserve to, as we did during our 12 game winning run last season.
I’d be surprised if we were dominating any of the teams we have played so far given the complete overhaul that was necessary over the summer.
What I am worried about though is complacency. I am worried that the team might be overly confident that things will eventually come good - and they might not. Every game obviously matters, and we don’t want to become adrift at the bottom. I am worried that we don’t really have another way to play if this doesn’t work (mainly due to our limited options up front).
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The slight worry I have is Smith rigidly sticking to the existing formation waiting for it to come right. We have to move away from the "2 number eights" and have two sitting in midfield.
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The slight worry I have is Smith rigidly sticking to the existing formation waiting for it to come right. We have to move away from the "2 number eights" and have two sitting in midfield.
Not to worried but 1 win in 4 is not good. I agree with the above
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If Everton can shove +3 up wolves today we’ll be back out the relegation zone.
I would love it, just love it, if this happened.
It’s happening
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The day I stop being happy at winning 3 in 4, or being worried that we've lost 3 out of 4, is probably the day I'm dribbling into my pureed food not even knowing what the fuck Aston Villa is.
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I mean, for context, if the score stays the same Wolves will be on the same number of points as us, but winless, and I'm not sure how many people have them going down at this stage.
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I mean, for context, if the score stays the same Wolves will be on the same number of points as us, but winless, and I'm not sure how many people have them going down at this stage.
Quite.
To be honest, I would almost prefer to laugh at dropping them into the bottom three on alphabetical order and then us copiously pointing out the 21 letter gap.
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Yes. We’re not going to score enough goals, and we’re way too lightweight in midfield.
Agree, if we continue to set the team up like this we are going to struggle, we have to sort the midfield out and soon.
We can then worrie about the goals.
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I’ll only start getting worried when I see the Villa fans Worried thread make an appearance
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The straw that i’m clinging to is that we haven’t been totally outplayed by anyone yet. I seem to remember in our relegation season, that this happened pretty much every week.
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The straw that i’m clinging to is that we haven’t been totally outplayed by anyone yet. I seem to remember in our relation season, that this happened pretty much every week.
Are you sure ?
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The straw that i’m clinging to is that we haven’t been totally outplayed by anyone yet. I seem to remember in our relation season, that this happened pretty much every week.
Are you sure ?
About which bit? Being outplayed or it happening every week. Perhaps I just remember the bad days of that season, but I think there were a lot.
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No.
3 points separate 7th from 19th.
Enjoy the ride with just 4 games in. After 9-10 games things will become clearer and then we'll know what kind of roller-coaster we're on.
UTV!
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No. Expected 4 maybe 5 points at this stage.
We have neither of those so saying "no" makes no sense.
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Not worried yet. Fully expected a difficult start.
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Early days yet but yesterday’s defeat really grates and we’ve now got two week to stew on it.
That said, perhaps two weeks for Smith and his team to reflect and reset might come at a good time. We need to change the shape, lose a winger, push Jack further forward and get some more strength in midfield. Then we need to work on moving possession from midfield to attack far more quickly and getting more runners to support Wesley.
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No, early days, keep the faith UTV
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The straw that i’m clinging to is that we haven’t been totally outplayed by anyone yet. I seem to remember in our relation season, that this happened pretty much every week.
Are you sure ?
About which bit? Being outplayed or it happening every week. Perhaps I just remember the bad days of that season, but I think there were a lot.
I have not seen every minute of every game but we have had long periods of being outplayed or over run including yesterday.
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A lot of the other established prem clubs look far more athletic and stronger than us, and Greater than I remember from when we were there last
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We were outplayed for most of the second half against Spurs, and for the last half an hour it was like the Alamo. Perhaps only to be expected given it was the first match back against one of the best teams in the Premier League. Bournemouth was a decent performance, and we had ⅔ of the possession, only for the stupid mistakes to cripple us. Everton swamped us for the first twenty minutes of the game and created a few good chances during the 90 minutes they should probably have scored from, but overall I thought we were the best team and looked very good. Yesterday was abject, and made even worse by the sending off.
The plus points are the defence, as I don't think there's much wrong there and we have good strength in depth. Even Taylor looks half decent. The midfield has talent in it, but it just doesn't seem to be working at this higher level at the moment. Luiz is clearly a very good player, but he's on the small side, and doesn't seem as physical or athletic as some of the enforcers other teams have. Jack hasn't fully hit his stride yet, and McGinn seems to have too much to do.
The real worry for me is the front three. Wesley will be a good player, but is going to take time to really get up to speed. I'm not convinced at all that Jota and El Ghazi are good enough for the Premier League, and Trezeguet doesn't really seem deserving of his nick name at the moment.
Early days, but lack of goals from the front three is going to make sure we hang around the lower reaches until Christmas I reckon. When January hits, I'd like to see another wide player but more importantly, a goal scorer coming in. I think not bringing one in was the one misstep the management team made in the summer, but it was a big one.
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Yes. We’re not going to score enough goals, and we’re way too lightweight in midfield.
100% correct. We'll be yo-yoing near the bottom of the table most like until we buy something that should have been a top priority this summer, another striker.
Going into your first PL campaign after being absent for three seasons with very limited forward options is negligence.
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4-2-3-1 needs to be the formation I think to get more presence in midfield. We’re not getting enough of the ball for Grealish and McGinn to be influential in the final third.
He needs to find a place for Hourihane in the side as well. He creates and scores too many goals to be a bit part player.
That formation will need our full backs to be bombing up and down - so tough on Taylor who’s done pretty well defensively.
Also think Davis will play a bigger role in that formation. He links really well with players coming towards him.
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No, yes. I mean no; I mean yes. I don't know.
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People make it sound so easy though. Just go and buy a striker, that’ll sort it, but a top striker is so hard to find plus also ridiculously expensive. I was at the game yesterday, unfortunately in the home stand with a Palace supporting mate, he is resigned to losing Saha in the Jan window, add to that the fact that benteke can’t buy a goal at the moment just highlights how hard it is to score goals in this league.
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The slight worry I have is Smith rigidly sticking to the existing formation waiting for it to come right. We have to move away from the "2 number eights" and have two sitting in midfield.
Let’s not chuck everything out just yet. It’s been four games, nowhere near long enough to suggest we are sticking rigidly to anything. Smith is an intelligent man and he will be looking a what needs to improve and figuring out how to do that.
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I'd like us to stop, or at least limit, the number of short goal kicks. They were shite under Lambert and they're shite now. All they do is mean we are unable to maintain a high defensive line and we invite pressure.
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The slight worry I have is Smith rigidly sticking to the existing formation waiting for it to come right. We have to move away from the "2 number eights" and have two sitting in midfield.
Let’s not chuck everything out just yet. It’s been four games, nowhere near long enough to suggest we are sticking rigidly to anything. Smith is an intelligent man and he will be looking a what needs to improve and figuring out how to do that.
The trouble is I don't think he's making good subs so far. At Spurs the midfield desperately needed shoring up, but he chose to sub a winger for a winger and brought Jota on. Bournemouth made a sub at half time for their player who was a walking red card. With four yellow cards at half time, and a ref clearly looking to send one of ours off, Smith should have done the same. Things like that.
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The next 5 league games will show us how much we need to worry imo. West Ham, Burnley and Brighton at home, Arsenal and Norwich away.
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The slight worry I have is Smith rigidly sticking to the existing formation waiting for it to come right. We have to move away from the "2 number eights" and have two sitting in midfield.
Let’s not chuck everything out just yet. It’s been four games, nowhere near long enough to suggest we are sticking rigidly to anything. Smith is an intelligent man and he will be looking a what needs to improve and figuring out how to do that.
The trouble is I don't think he's making good subs so far. At Spurs the midfield desperately needed shoring up, but he chose to sub a winger for a winger and brought Jota on. Bournemouth made a sub at half time for their player who was a walking red card. With four yellow cards at half time, and a ref clearly looking to send one of ours off, Smith should have done the same. Things like that.
Surely the players have to take some responsibility for cautions, Trez was very naive and rightfully got a second yellow, I don't think that you can blame Smith for bookings
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The next 5 league games will show us how much we need to worry imo. West Ham, Burnley and Brighton at home, Arsenal and Norwich away.
Seven points, which will leave us with 10 from a possible 21. I'd put that as somewhere between okay and not okay.
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No worried per se, but we need to get the system right. We’re not on the front door enough in some games.
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I think not bringing one in was the one misstep the management team made in the summer, but it was a big one.
Yes, agree with that.
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Yes. We’re not going to score enough goals, and we’re way too lightweight in midfield.
100% correct. We'll be yo-yoing near the bottom of the table most like until we buy something that should have been a top priority this summer, another striker.
Going into your first PL campaign after being absent for three seasons with very limited forward options is negligence.
Negligence is a bit strong. Smith and the club said they wanted to bring a striker in and had targets, but the combination of the right player with the right attitude at the right price and the right financial package did not materialise.
Not getting another striker was not ideal, but neither would have been spending stupid money just to get someone through the door or panic buying a ill-suited player just to say they’ve signed someone.
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The slight worry I have is Smith rigidly sticking to the existing formation waiting for it to come right. We have to move away from the "2 number eights" and have two sitting in midfield.
Let’s not chuck everything out just yet. It’s been four games, nowhere near long enough to suggest we are sticking rigidly to anything. Smith is an intelligent man and he will be looking a what needs to improve and figuring out how to do that.
The trouble is I don't think he's making good subs so far. At Spurs the midfield desperately needed shoring up, but he chose to sub a winger for a winger and brought Jota on. Bournemouth made a sub at half time for their player who was a walking red card. With four yellow cards at half time, and a ref clearly looking to send one of ours off, Smith should have done the same. Things like that.
Surely the players have to take some responsibility for cautions, Trez was very naive and rightfully got a second yellow, I don't think that you can blame Smith for bookings
Subs I agree could be improved, and we have to have confidence it will as Smith gains more experience in the Prem.
I agree that it was clear that we were going to have someone sent off after the first half, we were talking about it in the stands at half-time, the players should really have made a concerted attempt to make sure they didn’t give that idiot easy decisions to show cards.
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The next 5 league games will show us how much we need to worry imo. West Ham, Burnley and Brighton at home, Arsenal and Norwich away.
Seven points, which will leave us with 10 from a possible 21. I'd put that as somewhere between okay and not okay.
Considering the teams we would have played, that will be relegation form.
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Two champions league competing sides, a top 6 contender, 4 mid table sides and 2 relegation rivals;that's surely as even a spread as possible.10 points would leave us with with 1.11 a game and 42 overall.
That said, Burnley and Brighton have to be games we win and Norwich away one we dont lose. I'd fancy us against Weat Ham.
More generally, I have my concerns. Yesterday was poor, despite that we ought to have had a point and 4 would have been what I expected.
I dont think we're being out muscled or out run, I think we're the architects of our own downfall. We give it up too cheaply and display a lot of naivety.
That includes a midfield that isn't functioning correctly. We are bedding players in though but we're too deep. We creates nothing for Wesley or Davis in the box yesterday till late on. Grealish is too deep and the 433 is too easily nullified.
Away from home I'd have two sat to give Grealish licence to be 20 yards further forward, with McGinn tucked in and one wide man in support of Wesley. We need a better shape.
At home we've created more and 433 is less problematic.
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I am...a little.
I have been underwhelmed by the form of Grealish, McGinn, Jota, Trez, Louiz and after yesterday Guilbert.
Part of me wants a shake up in midfield but part of me wants to stick with it to see if we can turn it around.
We ought to be beating the likes of Bournemouth and Palace
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we have no automatic right to beat just beat the ‘likes’ of anyone.
We are the new boys to this division, making a huge step up in class.
We have got to learn from these games, and learn quickly enough so that we don’t find ourselves playing catch before too long.
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After 4 games last season, the bottom three was West Ham, Burnley, and Newcastle. And they all had less than three points. None of them were relegated.
Let's see where we are after 10 games.
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The next 5 league games will show us how much we need to worry imo. West Ham, Burnley and Brighton at home, Arsenal and Norwich away.
Seven points, which will leave us with 10 from a possible 21. I'd put that as somewhere between okay and not okay.
Considering the teams we would have played, that will be relegation form.
Think we'll only get 5. Draws v West Ham and Burnley and win Brighton. Would say something at Norwich but our record there has been dismal since Lambert got sacked (that and Anfield were two away grounds he also turned into a mini Guardiola for the afternoon).
We just need to hang in until xmas. Think we can pick up some wins over xmas period and January and hopefully get in 2-3 more proven players to get us over the line.
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After 4 games last season, the bottom three was West Ham, Burnley, and Newcastle. And they all had less than three points. None of them were relegated.
Let's see where we are after 10 games.
I like this stat. Good work 👍🏿
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Newcastle didn't win a game til November, if memory serves me right. And they still weren't bottom then!
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No. Well, not yet anyway. Well, just a little. Sweet Caroline anyone?
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Points totals to stay up will be much higher I think. Doubt anyone will stay up on 35 points like Brighton did.
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No. Well, not yet anyway. Well, just a little. Sweet Caroline anyone?
FUCK THE BLUES!
Sorry, couldn't help it. It's just so catchy!
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It's too early to be worried to be honest. I am concerned about where the goals are going to come from and also about the lack of physical presence in the centre of the park. Silly errors are costing us dear at the moment. Really poor defending cost us the goal with Mings over-stretching and Grealish smashing the clearance into Ayew. The positives are that we haven't been walloped and seem capable of defending well. I'd like to see Makamba and Luiz in the centre of the park together to allow Grealish and SJM to play further forward. I don't know whether Dean wants to experiment just yet though and he certainly doesn't strike me as one to panic. I think we will struggle but hopefully finish above the line rather than below it. Those of us wanting to purchase more players in January may see those players decide to go elsewhere as they may not take the risk of a relegation battle, which may, ultimately see them in the Championship. We'll see.
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I still think we'll eventually be OK. 16th. Just.
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we have no automatic right to beat just beat the ‘likes’ of anyone.
We are the new boys to this division, making a huge step up in class.
Well said.
I get the impression some people thought that after a decade of being very badly run, scraping promotion after a ridiculous run against the odds when we looked down and out last season, then basically signing a whole new team, that we'd roll back the clock and go back to being a comfortable PL team.
Being Aston Villa counts for sod all this season, it'll take a lot of bloody hard work to be able to look down on any PL clubs and put relegation out of our mind any time soon.
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What worries me more than the start is at least a couple of people already mentioning the J word, January. That suggests they think the current group isn't good enough to stay up. I think we need a bit of improvement as we will need to finish above at least 1, maybe 2, proven Prem teams (your Brightons/Newcastles/Southamptons) of this world, and at the moment they look a little bit streetwise and not exactly relegation fodder.
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Not worried at the moment. Losing to Spurs away is pretty much par for the course for anyone not chasing the title. After that, we've played 3 mid table teams, beat one and lost to the other 2. To me, that suggests we're probably a way off qualifying for Europe right now but there's nothing at all to go off against the type of teams likely to be involved in a relegation battle.
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It’s all about small margins at the minute.
We were punished early on against Bournemouth for some silly mistakes which played into their hands and prevented us getting the points we were capable of getting. We didn’t perform very well at Palace, but poor judgement sent us a man down and a referee mistake prevented us taking home a point. A slight shift in fortunes could have seen us with 7 points from four.
On the other hand, had Everton taken their opportunities we could have lost that one too, and so a small shift in fortunes the other way could have left us with nothing so far.
What we need to see now is whether or not the team can push on and make these little improvements that will see us putting points on the board more regularly. I think they are capable of it and Smith and his staff are capable of bringing it out in them.
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It’s all about small margins at the minute.
We were punished early on against Bournemouth for some silly mistakes which played into their hands and prevented us getting the points we were capable of getting. We didn’t perform very well at Palace, but poor judgement sent us a man down and a referee mistake prevented us taking home a point. A slight shift in fortunes could have seen us with 7 points from four.
On the other hand, had Everton taken their opportunities we could have lost that one too, and so a small shift in fortunes the other way could have left us with nothing so far.
What we need to see now is whether or not the team can push on and make these little improvements that will see us putting points on the board more regularly. I think they are capable of it and Smith and his staff are capable of bringing it out in them.
I think there are significant issues to be fixed by management this break. The football we are playing is really poor (including v Everton) and needs significant tactical adjustment to get more out of our two best players in midfield. When Grealish was out last season injured, Smith stuck rigidly to the same formation without success until he returned from injury. I hope he isn't going to repeat that mistake this season.
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What worries me more than the start is at least a couple of people already mentioning the J word, January. That suggests they think the current group isn't good enough to stay up. I think we need a bit of improvement as we will need to finish above at least 1, maybe 2, proven Prem teams (your Brightons/Newcastles/Southamptons) of this world, and at the moment they look a little bit streetwise and not exactly relegation fodder.
It's too early to judge the new signings especially as 3-4 of them haven't even set foot on a premier league pitch yet.
I doubt i'm in the minority in being hugely surprised on the last day of the window we didn't get in at least one more attacking player and that's the area of the pitch we've looked short so far. Not just with the 3 starting but a game turning option to bring off the bench. Looks even weaker with Kodjia unavailable since the first game.
We will sign on in January. Dosen't have to be 20m player, could be player who is out of favour and signs on loan. Many clubs have done that and stayed up.
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We will sign on in January.
With a pen in our hands?
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When you break the games down it's not so gloomy, Spurs are a top outfit and we nearly caused an upset, Everton are supposedly a top six side and we beat them, Bournemouth we were disappointing and we saw what happened at Palace. Remember the pace of the game has gone up from last season and some of our players like McGinn are finding it hard adjusting. Wesley needs more support he will come good but disappointed with with Trez. We have players who can come in and make a difference.
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After 4 games last season, the bottom three was West Ham, Burnley, and Newcastle. And they all had less than three points. None of them were relegated.
None of those just got promoted or purchased a whole new squad.
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What is the point in worrying? As fans there is only one thing we can do, which is get behind the team, encourage them, and show them how much their efforts mean to us all.
Panicking, second-guessing, and getting on people’s backs after only four games isn’t going to achieve anything. If people expected us to walk it then that’s their own fault, it was always going to be a difficult season and if you can’t take the downs with the ups then you’re really not going to enjoy a lot of football in life!
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No. Outside of the top 2 nobody is that special. That’s why one win all of a sudden puts us in the top 6. Way too early yet. Concerned about a few things? Absolutely. But we have time to fix them.
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We will be OK too early to be worried.
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After 4 games last season, the bottom three was West Ham, Burnley, and Newcastle. And they all had less than three points. None of them were relegated.
Let's see where we are after 10 games.
I like this stat. Good work 👍🏿
Palace lost all of their first 6 games, scoring no goals; two seasons' ago.
Stayed up.
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Not worried at all. We've got some good players and a good team.
We've not had the rub of the green at times. Should have got something from the Bournemouth game and should have got something on the weekend.
We'll be grand.
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After 4 games last season, the bottom three was West Ham, Burnley, and Newcastle. And they all had less than three points. None of them were relegated.
Let's see where we are after 10 games.
I like this stat. Good work 👍🏿
Palace lost all of their first 6 games, scoring no goals; two seasons' ago.
Stayed up.
Keep 'em coming 😁
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Huddersfield lost three of their first four games last season, and went down.
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I'm not so worried that we only have three points and are in the bottom 3 as there is still a long way to go. However I am a bit concerned that we seem to be struggling to adapt to the pace, tempo and intensity of PL games. Even during our 10 game winning run we had periods where the tempo dropped off and we ceded possession and chances to the opposition. You can get away with that in the Championship, but not the PL. We need to be able to keep the intensity going for most if not all of the game.
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We were at least as good as Bournemouth but suffered from two semi fluke goals and were very unlucky against Palace. Like others, I worry about the striker options but as long as the team spirit holds, we will be fine once we get a few wins in.
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We were at least as good as Bournemouth but suffered from two semi fluke goals and were very unlucky against Palace. Like others, I worry about the striker options but as long as the team spirit holds, we will be fine once we get a few wins in.
It's hard to judge whether we were as good as Bournemouth. We gifted them a 2 goad start and they played the rest of the game accordingly. They didn't do much because they didn't have to. Yes they were lucky, but they beat us at a canter.
As for Palace, the decision was a disgrace but they were FAR better than us on the day.
I am still hopeful we will be ok, but I don't take much comnfort from those two games.
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Huddersfield lost three of their first four games last season, and went down.
Yeah, but they're shit.
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We were at least as good as Bournemouth but suffered from two semi fluke goals and were very unlucky against Palace. Like others, I worry about the striker options but as long as the team spirit holds, we will be fine once we get a few wins in.
It's hard to judge whether we were as good as Bournemouth. We gifted them a 2 goad start and they played the rest of the game accordingly. They didn't do much because they didn't have to. Yes they were lucky, but they beat us at a canter.
As for Palace, the decision was a disgrace but they were FAR better than us on the day.
I am still hopeful we will be ok, but I don't take much comnfort from those two games.
The Palace game; they had a team going in at half time that where allowed to act without impunity also bolstered by the fact that every poor tackle by the opposition players would result in either a booking or a sending off - we held our own very well with 10 against 12 (one with the power to make any decision he deemed fit).
AND no, not worried.
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Yes.
I don't think our squad is good enough or deep enough, we don't have enough possession and we don't create enough chances.
Our new signings are a mixed bag: Been impressed with Heaton, Engels and Guilbert, but Trezeguit and Wesley are simply not good enough at this level, Jota a bit player at best, El Ghazi poor.
Even after the euphoria of the Everton win I was'nt convinced and I think Smith's tactics of getting the ball to stick up top with players joining from midfield is flawed, we have to be able to change tactics for different situations, and I'm surprised I haven't seen enough of that from Smith.
We all, me included, want him so much to succeed, but I don't think our owners will want us to get too stranded near the foot before they start getting twitchy, hope it does'nt come to that but the West Ham game is becoming huge now before a trip to Arsenal, where we won't have much possession again.
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Huddersfield lost three of their first four games last season, and went down.
Yeah, but they're shit.
Palace lost first 7 on the trot 2 years ago and stayed up. Not worried yet.
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We were at least as good as Bournemouth but suffered from two semi fluke goals and were very unlucky against Palace. Like others, I worry about the striker options but as long as the team spirit holds, we will be fine once we get a few wins in.
It's hard to judge whether we were as good as Bournemouth. We gifted them a 2 goad start and they played the rest of the game accordingly. They didn't do much because they didn't have to. Yes they were lucky, but they beat us at a canter.
As for Palace, the decision was a disgrace but they were FAR better than us on the day.
I am still hopeful we will be ok, but I don't take much comnfort from those two games.
Bournemouth was a car crash first 15 minutes but not how you say they were far better than us when applying same to Palace.
Against Bournemouth we had 21 (!) shots, 7 on target and 10 corners. Palace had 22 shots with 5 on target and 13 corners (although at least half of them came after we went down to 10 men).
If v Bournemouth we'd had a card happy ref like Friend in charge then Phillip Billing surely would've got a red so that would've improved the stats aswell.
So far I'd say we won a tight game v Everton (1 nil up to 95th minute) and lost three tight ones, two by a single goal and Spurs was 1-1 up to 86th minute. Maybe a bit too simplistic but we are in games up to the very end.
We certainly have the keeper and CB combination to stay up as we're difficult to break down but we also lack lots in the final third, people would really be optimstic to think we have a front three that is certain to fire us to safety.
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We were at least as good as Bournemouth but suffered from two semi fluke goals and were very unlucky against Palace. Like others, I worry about the striker options but as long as the team spirit holds, we will be fine once we get a few wins in.
It's hard to judge whether we were as good as Bournemouth. We gifted them a 2 goad start and they played the rest of the game accordingly. They didn't do much because they didn't have to. Yes they were lucky, but they beat us at a canter.
As for Palace, the decision was a disgrace but they were FAR better than us on the day.
I am still hopeful we will be ok, but I don't take much comnfort from those two games.
Bournemouth was a car crash first 15 minutes but not how you say they were far better than us when applying same to Palace.
Against Bournemouth we had 21 (!) shots, 7 on target and 10 corners. Palace had 22 shots with 5 on target and 13 corners (although at least half of them came after we went down to 10 men).
If v Bournemouth we'd had a card happy ref like Friend in charge then Phillip Billing surely would've got a red so that would've improved the stats aswell.
So far I'd say we won a tight game v Everton (1 nil up to 95th minute) and lost three tight ones, two by a single goal and Spurs was 1-1 up to 86th minute. Maybe a bit too simplistic but we are in games up to the very end.
We certainly have the keeper and CB combination to stay up as we're difficult to break down but we also lack lots in the final third, people would really be optimstic to think we have a front three that is certain to fire us to safety.
I didn’t see the Palace game but I think Bournemouth were able to play at a canter because our keeper had a head rush inside a minute and 10 minutes later the combo of a mistake and a huge deflection pretty much finished the game. Once we steadied ourselves, I thought we played really well. But for a shocking ref, we’d have most likely got a point even after the dreadful start. If not for both, I think we’d have won.
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Well wolves have yet to win (have drawn 3 times) so on points nobody in Mordor is saying they will go down. Just need to grind this season out and actually wake up in games and play without fear.
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Huddersfield lost three of their first four games last season, and went down.
Yeah, but they're shit.
Palace lost first 7 on the trot 2 years ago and stayed up. Not worried yet.
Newcastle had 6 points after 11 games.
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Could have easily got a point against BM and even thou we were poor v Palace we should have got a point . so should be on 5 with just one defeat V spurzzzzz
so not worried but would like at least one win in the next 2 games
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I’m not too worried about our ability and I believe we’ll be fine. I am more worried about the decisions in general in football by refs and VAR. I’ve not seen MOTD for quite some time due so have not seen much football other than our own. The standard so far is shocking, with this and the new handball rule it’s quite alarmingly awful. I suppose we’re all having to put up with it, I just thought the standard would improve now.
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in fact ask me again after Burley Norwich and Brighton
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Not worried, the aim for this season is just to survive and then build for next season. It's going to be a long season and will always take getting used to after becoming accustomed to regular wins in the Championship. All the other promoted sides have started quite strongly as well which has added to the pressure on us. Fancy us to hit a run of form soon though.
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Spurs - defended well but we were outplayed for most of the match,
all this 'we will give it a go win lose or draw' well we lost but even though we scored first i never felt we gave it a go at any time which was the most disappointing thing for me, people have said what did you expect against spurs, well i expected us to have a go like what we were told we would under Smith
might have held on for a point, but didnt
Bournmouth - better performance, made mistakes which cost but we were the better team and felt that all was well when competing against teams at this level
deserved a point but didn't get one
Everton - good performance against a good side, not all our own way but overcame and won, felt very confident we could go on from this and improve
deserved to win and did
Crystal Palace - back to square one, a sending off and a awful ref decision giving us excuses for what was a piss poor performance,
might have come away with a point but didn't
still confident we will stay up if we believe in ourselves and play attacking football to win and not get over cautious
we have seen enough in spells to think we can take points from teams in this league to stay in it
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Huddersfield lost three of their first four games last season, and went down.
Yeah, but they're shit.
Palace lost first 7 on the trot 2 years ago and stayed up. Not worried yet.
But didn't they change managers after 6 matches by getting rid of De Boer and bringing in Hodgson though?
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Worried? Yes
Is it too early to panic? Yes
Is it too early to express concerns? No
We don't look at all like a team at the minute to my eyes.
Mings and Engels look decent, as does Heaton, we do however still keep conceding goals
The full backs don't fill me with confidence. One minute Gilbert looks amazing the next very ropey. Taylor is Taylor, pretty solid defensively but offers absolutely zero over the halfway line.
The midfield three hasn't looked 'on it' for any game yet. We're not getting games by the scruff of the neck and dominating the middle of the park. Something isn't right in there. There appears to be very little cohesion between them and a big lack of forward momentum. Too much side to side stuff that doesn't hurt the opposition one bit.
The wingers have been incredibly lightweight to the point you struggle to remember any decent crosses. I've always felt Anwar was, at best an impact player. But i expected a LOT more of Trez, he's not looked up to it at all apart from a few glimpses against Spurs where he should've scored. Jota isn't a wide player to my mind, always looks better coming inside which he does all the time meaning we have a huge hole where he should be. I'd play him in the hole ahead of a midfield four.
Wes, looks isolated and not the first choice striker we need to get the goals to stay up at the moment. The raw talent may be there, but it's not showing enough yet. We need to work on whatever his strengths are and play to them. And he needs to up his awareness of players around him as he's not seeing the passing opportunities he should be. Davis is Davis, looks good at everything but the bit that really matters for a striker.
And I don't think this formation were refusing to tinker with is working at this level at all.
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If Dean gets us more on the front foot we’ll be ok. I don’t think we’re well suited to our style at the moment.
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Yes.
I don't think our squad is good enough or deep enough, we don't have enough possession and we don't create enough chances.
Our new signings are a mixed bag: Been impressed with Heaton, Engels and Guilbert, but Trezeguit and Wesley are simply not good enough at this level, Jota a bit player at best, El Ghazi poor.
Even after the euphoria of the Everton win I was'nt convinced and I think Smith's tactics of getting the ball to stick up top with players joining from midfield is flawed, we have to be able to change tactics for different situations, and I'm surprised I haven't seen enough of that from Smith.
We all, me included, want him so much to succeed, but I don't think our owners will want us to get too stranded near the foot before they start getting twitchy, hope it does'nt come to that but the West Ham game is becoming huge now before a trip to Arsenal, where we won't have much possession again.
Totally agree. In a way I’m comforted by the fact that our owners will act before things get too serious. Be sad to see a Deano go but the future of the club comes first.
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I think the main lessons from the first 4 games are:
- there are no easy games: B'mouth and CP have proved that point
- we need to toughen up a little: I'd like to see Marvelous and Luiz as two holding MF
- we need to look after the ball a whole lot better than we currently do
- Wes will get better; he has talent but needs the midfield a little furtther up the field, in support
- I'm not sure Jota or Trez are regular starters: both have a role to play, though.
I don't believe this is the time to panic, but - clearly - we need to start accumulating more points.
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Yes.
I don't think our squad is good enough or deep enough, we don't have enough possession and we don't create enough chances.
Our new signings are a mixed bag: Been impressed with Heaton, Engels and Guilbert, but Trezeguit and Wesley are simply not good enough at this level, Jota a bit player at best, El Ghazi poor.
Even after the euphoria of the Everton win I was'nt convinced and I think Smith's tactics of getting the ball to stick up top with players joining from midfield is flawed, we have to be able to change tactics for different situations, and I'm surprised I haven't seen enough of that from Smith.
We all, me included, want him so much to succeed, but I don't think our owners will want us to get too stranded near the foot before they start getting twitchy, hope it does'nt come to that but the West Ham game is becoming huge now before a trip to Arsenal, where we won't have much possession again.
Totally agree. In a way I’m comforted by the fact that our owners will act before things get too serious. Be sad to see a Deano go but the future of the club comes first.
I seriously doubt if they will replace Smith any time soon.
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Four games, the squad's being written off and the manager sacked.
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Incredible, but not surprising
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Mock those with concerns all you like but Smith is on thin ice, if anything he's lucky to still have a job. Winning 15 of the last 21 competitive games Villa have played is pretty unacceptable.
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Mock those with concerns all you like but Smith is on thin ice, if anything he's lucky to still have a job. Winning 15 of the last 21 competitive games Villa have played is pretty unacceptable.
Indeed we need someone with more Premier League experience. Brucie Ole and Warnock should all be considered
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Worried? Yes
Is it too early to panic? Yes
Is it too early to express concerns? No
We don't look at all like a team at the minute to my eyes.
Mings and Engels look decent, as does Heaton, we do however still keep conceding goals
The full backs don't fill me with confidence. One minute Gilbert looks amazing the next very ropey. Taylor is Taylor, pretty solid defensively but offers absolutely zero over the halfway line.
The midfield three hasn't looked 'on it' for any game yet. We're not getting games by the scruff of the neck and dominating the middle of the park. Something isn't right in there. There appears to be very little cohesion between them and a big lack of forward momentum. Too much side to side stuff that doesn't hurt the opposition one bit.
The wingers have been incredibly lightweight to the point you struggle to remember any decent crosses. I've always felt Anwar was, at best an impact player. But i expected a LOT more of Trez, he's not looked up to it at all apart from a few glimpses against Spurs where he should've scored. Jota isn't a wide player to my mind, always looks better coming inside which he does all the time meaning we have a huge hole where he should be. I'd play him in the hole ahead of a midfield four.
Wes, looks isolated and not the first choice striker we need to get the goals to stay up at the moment. The raw talent may be there, but it's not showing enough yet. We need to work on whatever his strengths are and play to them. And he needs to up his awareness of players around him as he's not seeing the passing opportunities he should be. Davis is Davis, looks good at everything but the bit that really matters for a striker.
And I don't think this formation were refusing to tinker with is working at this level at all.
That's the way I see it too pretty much. I'm not sure Wesley is the kind of forward who will thrive on crosses anyway like Abraham used to. Prefers to drop short or run onto through balls like he did to great effect v Everton. Need to completely reconfigure our midfield over this break. 4231, with width coming from the fullbacks, the likes of Hourihane and Nakamba coming into midfield and a style of play that values keeping the ball.
Im not buying the small margins argument. Arguably given the sitters Everton missed against us, that was a somewhat fortunate result. Three points after four games is about right based on the performances thus far. Two of our losses were against sides I expect in the 8 team mini league at the bottom of the table.
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I think the main lessons from the first 4 games are:
- there are no easy games: B'mouth and CP have proved that point
- we need to toughen up a little: I'd like to see Marvelous and Luiz as two holding MF
- we need to look after the ball a whole lot better than we currently do
- Wes will get better; he has talent but needs the midfield a little furtther up the field, in support
- I'm not sure Jota or Trez are regular starters: both have a role to play, though.
I don't believe this is the time to panic, but - clearly - we need to start accumulating more points.
This is it for me. We got rid of Jedinak (and to a lesser extent Whelan) because he can destroy but not create. If we play Luiz and Marvellous together we have players who can stop the opposition and allow our creative players to do what they do - also Luiz can't currently do it on his own. We need to do it. They will allow us to play football.
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Just back from family holiday and caught up with the Palace highlights!
I'm not too concerned by our form as I think we'll come good under Deano in the end, but with the squad we've assembled, I'll be honest and admit that I thought we'd have had 3 wins out of 4 at this point.
Playing devils advocat, we could even be sat on ZERO points going into the break, as Everton could have easily turned us over if they'd had their shooting boots on.
Two key areas need to be addressed as soon as the January window opens for me - Striker and LB.
I like the look of Wesley, but he's going to blow hot and cold for a season at least for me. We need a proven goalscorer to ease the pressure on him.
And personally, I thought Taylor had performed pretty well so far this season until I saw the Palace highlights - What the actual fuck were both he and Trezeguet doing down that left. Sod all marking that's for sure! And I don't think Targett (a Southampton benchwarmer) is the answer either. We need a left footed Freddie.
Performances aren't important at the moment, they will come. What we really need to start doing is adding points on the board - Especially against teams such as Bournemouth and Palace.
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Heaton
Guilbert Engels Mings Targett
Nakamba Luiz
? SJM Grealish
Wesley
The three behind Wesley would interchange. The question mark, at the moment, is most likely Jota or Trezeguet, although Hourihane/Lansbury might come in to that thinking. I agree with others that we need a more solid and physical midfield. Full back getting forward as much as they can.
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Yes, midfield and attack are a serious worry.
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Heaton
Guilbert Engels Mings Targett
Nakamba Luiz
? SJM Grealish
Wesley
The three behind Wesley would interchange. The question mark, at the moment, is most likely Jota or Trezeguet, although Hourihane/Lansbury might come in to that thinking. I agree with others that we need a more solid and physical midfield. Full back getting forward as much as they can.
I think Hourihane competes with Marvellous and, at a push, SJM & Grealish. It's Jota's for me, with AEG and Lansbury pushing him.
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Heaton
Guilbert Engels Mings Targett
Nakamba Luiz
? SJM Grealish
Wesley
The three behind Wesley would interchange. The question mark, at the moment, is most likely Jota or Trezeguet, although Hourihane/Lansbury might come in to that thinking. I agree with others that we need a more solid and physical midfield. Full back getting forward as much as they can.
I think Hourihane competes with Marvellous and, at a push, SJM & Grealish. It's Jota's for me, with AEG and Lansbury pushing him.
I like this, I would hope we can push Jack further forward and I’d like to see Jota in there ahead of AEG or Trez.
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I think Hourihane needs to be playing. I think he was very unlucky to be dropped and besides his goal threat our set pieces are pretty dire without him.
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Four games, the squad's being written off and the manager sacked.
I didn't say that
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I think Hourihane needs to be playing. I think he was very unlucky to be dropped and besides his goal threat our set pieces are pretty dire without him.
I agree
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Jesus. 11 pages.
To answer the original question, an emphatic 'No!'. Though I'm slightly concerned we're letting Liverpool get too big an advantage so early. Beat them twice though and the gap's just 3 points.
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Another resounding no from me. I think we have to hold our nerve a bit. If we allow that tension to creep in, it'll be evident at Villa Park and could affect player confidence. We've a long season ahead and we've shown signs of playing excellent football. We're definitely here to compete and that may mean a spanking or three along the way, and we are learning but I'm certain we will be okay.
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Another resounding no from me. I think we have to hold our nerve a bit. If we allow that tension to creep in, it'll be evident at Villa Park and could affect player confidence. We've a long season ahead and we've shown signs of playing excellent football. We're definitely here to compete and that may mean a spanking or three along the way, and we are learning but I'm certain we will be okay.
+1
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We need to create more chances
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We're not poor. We've not been totally outplayed by anyone. It was always going to take a good 10-15 to get into full swing. We just need patience. We also need to eradicate gifting the opposition. Silly sendings off, silly mistakes. The break gives us time to sit and reflect on addressing this and Smith getting tough. I'd like to see Grealish as one of the front 3 rather than midfield 3, because he'll affect things further up and we can put more presence in our midfield. Hourihane should come back in because he's a goal threat. In fact he's more of a threat than anyone else in the midfield probably. Luiz or Marvellous to sit and hold.
We envision Grealish, or Smith does, as a number 10. That's not happening in the current formation. He's more an 8 and he doesn't suit it. Where-as if you look at Liverpool as an example, they play three up top, and almost like 3 10's. No one is particularly wide, or focal. I'd have Grealish on the left. He's then got the ability to take it down the line, or come in field and instigate things. CH or JM could have a bit of licence to pull wide to give some width if needed (more so if Taylor played over Targett say).
We didn't particularly warrant a point but we were robbed of a perfectly good goal. 4 points and 11th and we'd be quite happy I think. 3 points and bottom 3. It's too early to worry. We're fine margins at the moment. Defensively we're solid enough. The attack will come but for that we need our most effective players playing, and Conor offers too much to be playing on the bench. Not least set pieces.
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If Jack Grealish's goal vs Crystal Palace had stood, as it should have, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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Well we're not nearly as bad as when we went down.
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I am more concerned that Dean appears to have changed his game plan to one of sitting back and counter attacking. There is constant pressure on the defence and when we do break we are nowhere near quick enough against mostly very athletic opposition. 4-2-3-1 - give the four licence to go forward more.
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I am more concerned that Dean appears to have changed his game plan to one of sitting back and counter attacking. There is constant pressure on the defence and when we do break we are nowhere near quick enough against mostly very athletic opposition. 4-2-3-1 - give the four licence to go forward more.
I do agree with this.
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Yes, midfield and attack are a serious worry.
Midfield will be fine in time. I personally think McGinn with Engels have been comfortably our best two players so far. You've seen Luiz have some good games so more to come from him and Jack of course. Also get Nakamba in there soon.
It's the three forward positions that are the big issue. Nothing convincing to replace Wesley and whoever plays out wide is lacking consistancy e.g. Jota superb v Everton then we hardly see him down at the Palace.
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one of Jota, el Gharzi or Trez need to play well enough to make that position there own until that happens we will keep chopping and changing because none of them have been consistently good enough yet to chose between them
i know its early days but i'd like to see one of them nail down that spot
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If Jack Grealish's goal vs Crystal Palace had stood, as it should have, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Jack didn't score, twas Lansbury
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No. New team, many players new to English football... patience please.
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No. Not worried.Players still getting accustomed to it all and there is plenty of time for all concerned.
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No, not worried just slightly disappointed so far. Hard to expect great things from the start but I had a feeling we might have got a little more from the games we've played. Long way to go and they do look more impressive then the results/points suggest though.
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All through the summer we were saying we had to be patient, let the new players settle in etc and that this season was one of survival. All this remains true. And if it all goes to shite the worst that happens is we return to the Championship again for a while. Not a disaster
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I wasn't worried, and I don't think I am too much, we need to settle. However I watched MOTD last night for the first time this season to see the Palace game reaction etc. and all the teams look pretty good - including the likes of Burnley. They all seemed to create a lot more chances than we have been doing so far, so that needs to improve.
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Results this weekend have showed it’s going to be a hard year to stay up. 2 other promoted sides looking very good value, both better than us, and it looks a big ask to finish above 3 established PL sides. The shit ones aren’t quite as shit as I’d hoped either.
Having said that, I do expect us to improve more than a lot of other teams around us as the season goes on, because of the squad turnover.
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A defeat at home is not unthinkable, it's very possible, but it wouldn't be the end of the world.
We also have a good chance of a victory, but that wouldn't mean we're in for a comfortable mid table either.
A draw wouldn't be a bad result against West Ham. They've had an OK start.
Keep the faith in Dean & Co.
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The shit ones aren’t quite as shit as I’d hoped either.
I agree with this. I'd hardly watched any PL football for the past 3 seasons, and it looks like I'd mentally adjusted what good football was for the Championship. Even the shit PL teams are faster, stronger and better with the ball than the dross we've been playing for years. It's a much bigger step up than I thought it'd be, and we don't look up to the job so far. There's a very long way to go, but I don't see any way we won't be in the mix at the bottom come the end of the season.
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After this Weekends results I think 4 defeats in 5 would be a disaster. If we want to stay up we need to be getting three points tomorrow, 1 point would not be a disaster zero points would make me panic a little
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I’m always happy when a manager is never satisfied, as there is always something that can be improved and Dean Smith certainly has his feet on the ground and always talks about how we can improve. This is really positive.
Steve Bruce lost me when he made the comment along the lines of it not being unexpected to go a month without winning in the Championship. To progress you need realistic and honest assessments so you can identify changes that will improve performances, and even though there would be an element of Bruce trying to defend himself in public, making such statements only sends out the wrong message to everyone involved.
I like that Smith’s comments don’t try and hide the reality, and as he is an obviously intelligent and passionate manager then this gives me confidence that things will improve.
Having been a season ticket holder through some pretty dire seasons, I have been buzzing about going to every single match so far this season and long may that continue!
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Spot on mate. I’ve been thinking the same over the weekend. That’s the other reason I think we should improve as the season goes on - Smith is smart and self aware enough to respond to the need to adapt, then take action, and the players all seem like they take coaching well and are prepared to graft between games.
It’s nice to think we don’t have a set up where we’ll keep making the same mistakes all season.
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We've had a clear fortnight without losing many players. I'm confident we've worked on tons of stuff in training.
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We have just had two seasons of finishing in the top six. We were always likely to lose more games in our first season back in the Premier League. Everybody at the club from the owners to the supporters has to keep their bottle this season. We may well take a couple of heavy beatings and we may well go through lean spells during the course of the season. But panicking is not an option. Anybody who is losing their bottle in September is in for a long hard stressful season. Tonight is exactly the sort of game we need to win this season (as was Bournemouth and Everton) but I would suggest that anyone who needs their tie and shoe laces taken off them for their own safety this early in the campaign isn't cut out to be a football fan and should take up fishing or bowls.
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Would have liked at least 1 more point, maybe 3. Tonight is big as all home games should be, 6 points from the next 4 games
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We have just had two seasons of finishing in the top six. We were always likely to lose more games in our first season back in the Premier League. Everybody at the club from the owners to the supporters has to keep their bottle this season. We may well take a couple of heavy beatings and we may well go through lean spells during the course of the season. But panicking is not an option. Anybody who is losing their bottle in September is in for a long hard stressful season. Tonight is exactly the sort of game we need to win this season (as was Bournemouth and Everton) but I would suggest that anyone who needs their tie and shoe laces taken off them for their own safety this early in the campaign isn't cut out to be a football fan and should take up fishing or bowls.
I was fishing today. It was far less stressful than supporting Villa. And also far less enjoyable.
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I'm a bit on edge today I must admit.
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I am excited. Can't wait! Another full Villa Park under the floodlights, crowd up for it, Jack and the lads determined to make up for Palace, the TV cameras on-hand and all eyes on us...
This is what we wanted last year, it's not going to be easy but it's a ride I'd rather be on than not.
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Lose tonight and I will start to become concerned ... we need points on the board
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Worried? I can't bloody wait for every game! We've got a manager and a team looking as committed as any side we've had in 20 years, Villa Park is absolutely rocking, and even if the worst does happen I've lost the fear of relegation as the Championship was great fun for the last 2 years.
I say we go out every week without fear, players and supporters. We've got so much going for us right now that we have to keep it going even if results go against us - stick to what we are doing and we will be more than alright. The absolute worst thing we could do is start to get worried and retreat into our shells. If results go against us then just get louder, play more aggressively and make others worry about us. What was it Dean said last season about not just winning this game, but putting fear into your next opponents? That's what I want to hear from everyone.
I'll leave you with this - imagine being a West Ham fan leaving Villa Park tonight having tasted the atmosphere we will generate. Then imagine having to go back and play in that soulless dome at the weekend. I know whose shoes I'd rather be in.
Worried? Not a chance.
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We have just had two seasons of finishing in the top six. We were always likely to lose more games in our first season back in the Premier League. Everybody at the club from the owners to the supporters has to keep their bottle this season. We may well take a couple of heavy beatings and we may well go through lean spells during the course of the season. But panicking is not an option. Anybody who is losing their bottle in September is in for a long hard stressful season. Tonight is exactly the sort of game we need to win this season (as was Bournemouth and Everton) but I would suggest that anyone who needs their tie and shoe laces taken off them for their own safety this early in the campaign isn't cut out to be a football fan and should take up fishing or bowls.
I was fishing today. It was far less stressful than supporting Villa. And also far less enjoyable.
I have only been fishing once. On a lovely day on my uncle's mate's boat off the coast of Australia. I was bored shitless. I was only seventeen but realised there and then that if I didn't enjoy fishing in those circumsatances I was never going to be one of those people who gets up at 5am on a Sunday morning to go fishing in the rain in England.
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Worried? I can't bloody wait for every game! We've got a manager and a team looking as committed as any side we've had in 20 years, Villa Park is absolutely rocking, and even if the worst does happen I've lost the fear of relegation as the Championship was great fun for the last 2 years.
I say we go out every week without fear, players and supporters. We've got so much going for us right now that we have to keep it going even if results go against us - stick to what we are doing and we will be more than alright. The absolute worst thing we could do is start to get worried and retreat into our shells. If results go against us then just get louder, play more aggressively and make others worry about us. What was it Dean said last season about not just winning this game, but putting fear into your next opponents? That's what I want to hear from everyone.
I'll leave you with this - imagine being a West Ham fan leaving Villa Park tonight having tasted the atmosphere we will generate. Then imagine having to go back and play in that soulless dome at the weekend. I know whose shoes I'd rather be in.
Worried? Not a chance.
That's the attitude we need. Excellent rallying call to the masses.
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Worried? I can't bloody wait for every game! We've got a manager and a team looking as committed as any side we've had in 20 years, Villa Park is absolutely rocking, and even if the worst does happen I've lost the fear of relegation as the Championship was great fun for the last 2 years.
I say we go out every week without fear, players and supporters. We've got so much going for us right now that we have to keep it going even if results go against us - stick to what we are doing and we will be more than alright. The absolute worst thing we could do is start to get worried and retreat into our shells. If results go against us then just get louder, play more aggressively and make others worry about us. What was it Dean said last season about not just winning this game, but putting fear into your next opponents? That's what I want to hear from everyone.
I'll leave you with this - imagine being a West Ham fan leaving Villa Park tonight having tasted the atmosphere we will generate. Then imagine having to go back and play in that soulless dome at the weekend. I know whose shoes I'd rather be in.
Worried? Not a chance.
spot on Pat....
UTV
The Doc
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I say we go out every week without fear, players and supporters.
I'll be bloody worried if we go out every week without players! Especially if the stadium is empty!
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Lose tonight and I will start to become concerned ... we need points on the board
IF we lose tonight, we will be 3 points off mid table having played teams 2nd, 3rd, 9th, 11th, and 12th.
IF we win tonight, we will be mid table still having played none of the teams in the bottom 7.
Worried - not!
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Win or lose, up the fucking Villa!
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Worried? I can't bloody wait for every game! We've got a manager and a team looking as committed as any side we've had in 20 years, Villa Park is absolutely rocking, and even if the worst does happen I've lost the fear of relegation as the Championship was great fun for the last 2 years.
I say we go out every week without fear, players and supporters. We've got so much going for us right now that we have to keep it going even if results go against us - stick to what we are doing and we will be more than alright. The absolute worst thing we could do is start to get worried and retreat into our shells. If results go against us then just get louder, play more aggressively and make others worry about us. What was it Dean said last season about not just winning this game, but putting fear into your next opponents? That's what I want to hear from everyone.
I'll leave you with this - imagine being a West Ham fan leaving Villa Park tonight having tasted the atmosphere we will generate. Then imagine having to go back and play in that soulless dome at the weekend. I know whose shoes I'd rather be in.
Worried? Not a chance.
spot on Pat....
UTV
The Doc
Yes excellent post Colonel, and spare a thought if you were a dingle too, are they worried?
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Worried? I can't bloody wait for every game! We've got a manager and a team looking as committed as any side we've had in 20 years, Villa Park is absolutely rocking, and even if the worst does happen I've lost the fear of relegation as the Championship was great fun for the last 2 years.
I say we go out every week without fear, players and supporters. We've got so much going for us right now that we have to keep it going even if results go against us - stick to what we are doing and we will be more than alright. The absolute worst thing we could do is start to get worried and retreat into our shells. If results go against us then just get louder, play more aggressively and make others worry about us. What was it Dean said last season about not just winning this game, but putting fear into your next opponents? That's what I want to hear from everyone.
I'll leave you with this - imagine being a West Ham fan leaving Villa Park tonight having tasted the atmosphere we will generate. Then imagine having to go back and play in that soulless dome at the weekend. I know whose shoes I'd rather be in.
Worried? Not a chance.
Great fun in the championship? Revisionism comes to mind...The club was weeks away from bankruptcy at one point during all the fun
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The last few months were bloody ace.
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We're competing well.
Defensively I think we're looking very solid, one goal conceded in three games.
More to come from midfield, Marvellous had a decent debut so another option for DM or box to box now.
But goodness me the decision not to sign another attacking player is very baffling to me and it's starting to hurt us. Tonight with 10 men to play for last 20 minutes we only had one attacking player on the bench and he's scored about 4 goals in two championship seasons.
Going to be a struggle to win games up to January I'm afraid for all our promising play.
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We're competing well.
Defensively I think we're looking very solid, one goal conceded in three games.
More to come from midfield, Marvellous had a decent debut so another option for DM or box to box now.
But goodness me the decision not to sign another attacking player is very baffling to me and it's starting to hurt us. Tonight with 10 men to play for last 20 minutes we only had one attacking player on the bench and he's scored about 4 goals in two championship seasons.
Going to be a struggle to win games up to January I'm afraid for all our promising play.
The actual shot count in the game though was that they had 13 to our 10, but 5 of ours were on target and only one of theirs. Some of our best chances don’t even his that count e.g. the Grealish chance near the end was a whisker from being a goal but was not any kind of shot. The team are clearly working hard on improving which is currently getting us into scoring positions, and for me, sooner or later those start to go in.
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A little concerned as to where our goals are going to come from on tonight's showing.
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Fair point amfy but in the other hand out actual shots on goal we’re all woeful! (with the exception of SJM’s low shot, which fabianski did well to get a hand to).
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Their 13 shots takes us to 90 shots conceded in 5 games which is second highest after Arsenal. We need to reduce that however it's not effecting us negatively.
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A little concerned as to where our goals are going to come from on tonight's showing.
A bit depressing that the thing that’s fucking us is the exact thing everyone said would fuck us at the start of the season. I wanted to be proved wrong about that, as I hoped we were being run by super smart people.
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I am a bit concerned
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Our corner count must be really low this season. Pretty sure the Everton and Spurs games we didn't have any and can't imagine we had that many v Palace when down to 10 men.
Tonight all I can remember is one in first half we took very quickly and one right at the end when West Ham defender nearly scored an OG. When you're struggling to create much from open play then set plays become pretty important. We scored loads from them last season but hardly getting any corners to work with this season.
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Amazed we've had as many as 14, majority of those must've come in the Bournemouth game when we had a decent amount.
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I think most of us felt that despite what seemed to be a very productive summer in the transfer market the one worry was that we should have signed another striker. We might regret not signing Maupay.
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The lack of attacking options continues to be a big problem. Wesley is no where near the finished article, and at the moment just looks like a big lump holding the ball up. El Ghazi is poor at this level, and Jota is lightweight and mostly ineffective. Bringing Davis on isn't ever going to lead to many goals I fear.
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Yes, part of Wesley’s issue is the formation, he’s really isolated up there on his own.
I want to find a way to get Marvelous and Douglas in the team at the same time., if that means moving Jack higher up the pitch, so be it.
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Yes, part of Wesley’s issue is the formation, he’s really isolated up there on his own.
I want to find a way to get Marvelous and Douglas in the team at the same time., if that means moving Jack higher up the pitch, so be it.
Jack absolutely should be higher up the pitch. I'd also like to see Luiz and Marvelous start, so would think about moving Jack further up instead of either El Ghazi or Jota, both of whom were pretty crap tonight.
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After tonight, yes.
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After tonight, yes.
Welcome to the dark side
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We are going to regret not buying another striker
To currently have the options of Wesley and Davis is nowhere near enough.
Our build up play is also so slow and predictable.
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We are going to regret not buying another striker
To currently have the options of Wesley and Davis is nowhere near enough.
Our build up play is also so slow and predictable.
It’s still too early to judge this team as it’s so new and Dean will need time to turn them into a team rather than a set of individuals. The problem is that the PL doesn’t give you any time and the worry is he starts tinkering and panicking but I suspect he will stick to his principles. Does anybody know how wedded he has been to this 433 at his previous clubs?
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Already 9 point away from Liverpool after 5 games....not acceptable.
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I'm not panicking as I still think we're a decent side with a good manager. But I do think it will be touch and go - I'm not sure there are three worse teams than us. I still think we'll be somewhere between 15 -19. Right now if I was another relegation candidate I'd be looking at Villa as a team we'd hope to finish above.
I've always putting all our eggs in the Wesley basket was a huge risk and it's clear we are short of a striker and winger. I just hope we can stay with the pack until January and strengthen then.
With all that said I do think there will be some games where we click and things would change very quickly if we could put a bit of a run together.
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Difficult match to assess last night.
I thought the central defensive pairing looked excellent last night. Guilbert was excellent as well, although he was caught out a couple of times pushing forward. I thought Taylor was fine defensively and Heaton untroubled all night. In the middle Marvellous was excellent I though apart from his one horrendous cross field pass, Grealish and McGinn weren't on it, although McGinn worked so so hard. Jack was forcing things too much although at times his options were limited. Out wide we really struggled, and Wes just doesn't have the pace to worry defenders. I thought he showed his strength really well with some excellent pinged passes out wide, but he just looks clumsy at times.
Long hard season ahead, which we knew it would be, but I cant see us scoring many goals which is a real worry.
Tempo of the games are noticeably quicker than last season, with better touches from most players.
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So yes worried!
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it's the lack of goals that will do for us, if anything. changing formation may help, but I can see us panic buying in January and paying through thee nose.
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I hate this thread.
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I hate this thread.
Don't read it then?
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I love it. Makes me feel calm.
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We need to get Conor in there somewhere for his delivery , set pieces and goals . especially If we can play Marvelous and Luis together with Jack and Conor further up. Jota and EGZ are very poor at the moment , easily pushed off the ball . Id leave Trez on the bench for now too.
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It would be interesting to know how people would have viewed things generally if palace had not of beaten united, Norwich beaten Man City and Newcastle gone to spurs and won. All results that not many would have predicted. We could do with an “expected win” ourselves. Let’s just hope we get one at the Emirates.
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We need to get Conor in there somewhere for his delivery , set pieces and goals . especially If we can play Marvelous and Luis together with Jack and Conor further up. Jota and EGZ are very poor at the moment , easily pushed off the ball . Id leave Trez on the bench for now too.
Agree. Marvellous and Luiw together would allow jack and john mc ginn to play higher and not tire too soon in the game. JMG disappeared 2nd half.
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A lot of bed wetting going on.
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It would be interesting to know how people would have viewed things generally if palace had not of beaten united, Norwich beaten Man City and Newcastle gone to spurs and won. All results that not many would have predicted. We could do with an “expected win” ourselves. Let’s just hope we get one at the Emirates.
Well if we had held on against Spurs for a win or a point , beaten Bournemouth , drawn at Palace and won last night v West Ham then I know we be viewing things as successful and with far less questioning than the actual
Absolute genius. 😂😂
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- I'm not sure there are three worse teams than us.
We're 4th bottom, so yes, there are.
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I actually thought we looked the most solid as a defensive unit so far this season. West Ham barely looked like scoring and Heaton had little to do. It's the second clean sheet but we rode our luck not to concede against Everton and Palace could have got more. I think Nakamba made a difference protecting, he's got a quicker turn of pace, he's snappier in the tackle and his positional sense is better than Hourahane and Douglas in that defensive position. Those 2 will be more effective further up the field, I'm sure a damn sight more effective than anyone that has played those wing positions so far. The formation we play cries out for quality on those wings, players that won't give the ball away cheaply and will create for others and score goals themselves. We're seeing none of that at the moment, Wesley looks isolated (and I think he'll be a good player with the right support), and I have to say so far Grealish is not having the impact in that attacking midfield role.
Ultimately it's the creativity and lack of quality and numbers in the final third that is letting us down. We need much better from the wingers, better players there or we need to tweak the formation from an attacking point of view.
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- I'm not sure there are three worse teams than us.
We're 4th bottom, so yes, there are.
What a daft comment. Just because there's 3 teams with fewer points after 5 games doesn't mean there are 3 worse teams. Do you truly think we're a better team than Wolves with our current squads?
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- I'm not sure there are three worse teams than us.
We're 4th bottom, so yes, there are.
By that logic if we lose to Arsenal and find ourselves in the bottom 3 you'll be saying we'll be relegated as we'll be one of the worst 3 teams?
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There is nothing wrong with playing one up front, as Spurs have shown. What we need to do is get Grealish and McGinn into the games in the danger areas like Spurs do with Ali, Son and Eriksen. Surely the whole idea of playing just one up front is to give a couple of attacking midfielders the freedom and licence to attack.
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- I'm not sure there are three worse teams than us.
We're 4th bottom, so yes, there are.
What a daft comment. Just because there's 3 teams with fewer points after 5 games doesn't mean there are 3 worse teams. Do you truly think we're a better team than Wolves with our current squads?
So how do you measure that teams are better or worse. So far three other teams have done worse than we have and you could well argue that we'd be higher in the table given our performances against Palace, Bournemouth and to a lesser extent Spurs.
The league is measured on points and where you finish.
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- I'm not sure there are three worse teams than us.
We're 4th bottom, so yes, there are.
By that logic if we lose to Arsenal and find ourselves in the bottom 3 you'll be saying we'll be relegated as we'll be one of the worst 3 teams?
If you extrapolate it across the season, yes we would.
I don't think we're one of the worst 3 and I don't think we've got what we deserved from games but what you deserve and what you get are two different things.
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We need to get Conor in there somewhere for his delivery , set pieces and goals . especially If we can play Marvelous and Luis together with Jack and Conor further up. Jota and EGZ are very poor at the moment , easily pushed off the ball . Id leave Trez on the bench for now too.
Agree. Marvellous and Luiw together would allow jack and john mc ginn to play higher and not tire too soon in the game. JMG disappeared 2nd half.
The trouble is, the only way you get Nakamba, Luis, Grealish and McGinn in the same side is if you do away with wingers and rely on the full backs to provide the width. Guilbert can probably do that, but I don't think Taylor's got it in him. It will also put our centre backs under more pressure.
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- I'm not sure there are three worse teams than us.
We're 4th bottom, so yes, there are.
What a daft comment. Just because there's 3 teams with fewer points after 5 games doesn't mean there are 3 worse teams. Do you truly think we're a better team than Wolves with our current squads?
So how do you measure that teams are better or worse. So far three other teams have done worse than we have and you could well argue that we'd be higher in the table given our performances against Palace, Bournemouth and to a lesser extent Spurs.
The league is measured on points and where you finish.
I make a judgement on how well teams play, not a black and white analysis of results after 5 games (where of course all teams have had different fixtures etc). Based on how we have played so far and taking account the strenth of our squad then as I stated I'm not convinced there are three worse teams than us at the moment. If you think Wolves are, well ok but I doubt many will agree.
If your contribution to this thread will be an update on where we stand in the league each week then fair enough, but it's hardly an informed view of how good we are or where we are likley to end up this season, which was my interpretation of what this thread was really about.
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I also think that we'll stay up, but I don't think you can base anything on a league table after 5 games, our current points per game says we're both wrong that we'll stay up if we do base it on the current table as we'll finish with 30 or 31 points. 3 teams currently being below us is as meaningless as that ppg or us losing and being bottom 3 after Arsenal, which I doubt will have either of us thinking we'll be relegated.
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Worried? I can't bloody wait for every game! We've got a manager and a team looking as committed as any side we've had in 20 years, Villa Park is absolutely rocking, and even if the worst does happen I've lost the fear of relegation as the Championship was great fun for the last 2 years.
I say we go out every week without fear, players and supporters. We've got so much going for us right now that we have to keep it going even if results go against us - stick to what we are doing and we will be more than alright. The absolute worst thing we could do is start to get worried and retreat into our shells. If results go against us then just get louder, play more aggressively and make others worry about us. What was it Dean said last season about not just winning this game, but putting fear into your next opponents? That's what I want to hear from everyone.
I'll leave you with this - imagine being a West Ham fan leaving Villa Park tonight having tasted the atmosphere we will generate. Then imagine having to go back and play in that soulless dome at the weekend. I know whose shoes I'd rather be in.
Worried? Not a chance.
Great fun in the championship? Revisionism comes to mind...The club was weeks away from bankruptcy at one point during all the fun
I don't get how the club's financial status prevented us enjoying winning more games per season than we had since the Martin O'Neil years...
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I also think that we'll stay up, but I don't think you can base anything on a league table after 5 games,
Or ten. Last season after ten games Newcastle had three points. Three draws, seven defeats. They finished 13th.
I think there's more to come from us, think we'll take a hiding or two along the way but am still cautiously optimistic.
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We are going to regret not buying another striker
To currently have the options of Wesley and Davis is nowhere near enough.
Our build up play is also so slow and predictable.
As has been discussed a lot already, the board and manager both wanted to reinforce the attack but as they have publicly stated the right deal for the right player did not come up. This wasn't a belief that we didn't need to buy, but a belief that chucking money up the wall ( again ) for the sake of it was not the answer.
They will be sitting there wishing that they had been able to get something over the line without doubt. But there's a big difference between running a team and running a whole football club and unfortunately in the real world there are other considerations.
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We need to get Conor in there somewhere for his delivery , set pieces and goals . especially If we can play Marvelous and Luis together with Jack and Conor further up. Jota and EGZ are very poor at the moment , easily pushed off the ball . Id leave Trez on the bench for now too.
Agree. Marvellous and Luiw together would allow jack and john mc ginn to play higher and not tire too soon in the game. JMG disappeared 2nd half.
The trouble is, the only way you get Nakamba, Luis, Grealish and McGinn in the same side is if you do away with wingers and rely on the full backs to provide the width. Guilbert can probably do that, but I don't think Taylor's got it in him. It will also put our centre backs under more pressure.
Targett might have it in him, though. Right now the wide players are totally ineffective, so it's worth a go.
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We need to get Conor in there somewhere for his delivery , set pieces and goals . especially If we can play Marvelous and Luis together with Jack and Conor further up. Jota and EGZ are very poor at the moment , easily pushed off the ball . Id leave Trez on the bench for now too.
I thought the end of the game yesterday was crying out for Hourihane.
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We need to get Conor in there somewhere for his delivery , set pieces and goals . especially If we can play Marvelous and Luis together with Jack and Conor further up. Jota and EGZ are very poor at the moment , easily pushed off the ball . Id leave Trez on the bench for now too.
Agree. Marvellous and Luiw together would allow jack and john mc ginn to play higher and not tire too soon in the game. JMG disappeared 2nd half.
The trouble is, the only way you get Nakamba, Luis, Grealish and McGinn in the same side is if you do away with wingers and rely on the full backs to provide the width. Guilbert can probably do that, but I don't think Taylor's got it in him. It will also put our centre backs under more pressure.
I would get rid of the wingers . I wouldnt say Jota is a winger , he hasnt got the pace anyway so Id drop him but I reckon we need to get Targett in there as he could do the job at left back.
Id go 4 2 3 1 and get SJM , Conor and JG to support Wes more and some crosses from the full backs . I thought Marvelous for his first game looks a good player .
We have to support Wes .
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We need to get Conor in there somewhere for his delivery , set pieces and goals . especially If we can play Marvelous and Luis together with Jack and Conor further up. Jota and EGZ are very poor at the moment , easily pushed off the ball . Id leave Trez on the bench for now too.
I thought the end of the game yesterday was crying out for Hourihane.
Either him or Lansbury would have been a good idea. We had a man advantage, but completely failed to make that count and just swapped one ineffective winger for another. We should have been looking to swamp the midfield, but persisted with the same tactics that weren't working. At times towards the end of the second half we had four or five players in our own half doing nothing. Grealish was clearly frustrated, and when he gets frustrated he starts to try too hard, and his game goes to pot.
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We need to get Conor in there somewhere for his delivery , set pieces and goals . especially If we can play Marvelous and Luis together with Jack and Conor further up. Jota and EGZ are very poor at the moment , easily pushed off the ball . Id leave Trez on the bench for now too.
I thought the end of the game yesterday was crying out for Hourihane.
Either him or Lansbury would have been a good idea. We had a man advantage, but completely failed to make that count and just swapped one ineffective winger for another. We should have been looking to swamp the midfield, but persisted with the same tactics that weren't working. At times towards the end of the second half we had four or five players in our own half doing nothing. Grealish was clearly frustrated, and when he gets frustrated he starts to try too hard, and his game goes to pot.
Agree with all these post. The wide men are currently not very effective so why not try midfielder alternatives
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Lots of people predicted that we'd get 'found out' and battered every game, but no one has looked like thrashing us so far and our performances are getting better bit by bit.
Home form - 4 points from 3 games, two of which were against top 10 teams last season who have both spent this summer, and the third we were the better team but a couple of silly nervous mistakes cost us two early goals. Two clean sheets is nothing to be sniffed at in this league either, in fact our last season in the Prem we only kept 6 all season.
Away form - 0 points from 2 games, one of which was against the European runners-up and other could easily have been a draw, one way or another.
Neither of those records is anything to cry about. The Bournemouth game is the big regret because it was two silly mistakes so early that denied us three points that would have us around mid-table and no-one would be bothering with this thread.
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My take on Villa thus far.
Positive:
Villa have a reasonable defence, but it frequently comes under excessive pressure.
Negative:
1. No defined style of play.
2. No proven goalscorers.
3. Midfield lacks coordination in build-up play (see 1).
4. Compared to other Premiership teams Villa appear tentative. They repeatedly fail to impose themselves on the opposition (as with 10 man West Ham), preferring to re-enact their version of the Battle of of the Alamo (as seen at Crystal Palace. Never mind the terrible refereeing, Villa should have lost by several goals).
Outlook:
Unless:
(i) a defined style is introduced with joined up midfield play, suitable for combating Premiership teams and
(ii) the attack is strengthened to enable Villa to score more goals, then there is only one possible outcome, relegation.
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My take on Villa thus far.
Positive:
Villa have a reasonable defence, but it frequently comes under excessive pressure.
Negative:
1. No defined style of play.
2. No proven goalscorers.
3. Midfield lacks coordination in build-up play (see 1).
4. Compared to other Premiership teams Villa appear tentative. They repeatedly fail to impose themselves on the opposition (as with 10 man West Ham), preferring to re-enact their version of the Battle of of the Alamo (as seen at Crystal Palace. Never mind the terrible refereeing, Villa should have lost by several goals).
Outlook:
Unless:
(i) a defined style is introduced with joined up midfield play, suitable for combating Premiership teams and
(ii) the attack is strengthened to enable Villa to score more goals, then there is only one possible outcome, relegation.
The Villa.
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I don't understand how we went from having a define style of play last season to no style at all this season.
The jump was huge, no doubt, but surely we should have an ethos here - whether we carried it with us from the Championship or re-calibrated during the summer.
How have we just regressed to sending XI lads out on the pitch again in the hopes that they'll string moves together as if by magic?
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Lots of people predicted that we'd get 'found out' and battered every game, but no one has looked like thrashing us so far and our performances are getting better bit by bit.
Home form - 4 points from 3 games, two of which were against top 10 teams last season who have both spent this summer, and the third we were the better team but a couple of silly nervous mistakes cost us two early goals. Two clean sheets is nothing to be sniffed at in this league either, in fact our last season in the Prem we only kept 6 all season.
Away form - 0 points from 2 games, one of which was against the European runners-up and other could easily have been a draw, one way or another.
Neither of those records is anything to cry about. The Bournemouth game is the big regret because it was two silly mistakes so early that denied us three points that would have us around mid-table and no-one would be bothering with this thread.
Did anybody predict that we'd get battered every game? Certainly nobody on here that I can recall. I'm not sure our performances are improving to be honest. They've all been similar, but I'd argue that Everton and Bournemouth (silly mistakes aside) were the best. The recurring theme, and that was one theory that was stated on here, is that our attacking options aren't great and we'll struggle to score goals.
All of Wesley, Davis, Trez, Jota and El Ghazi have big question marks against them. At best, they're going to take time to come to terms with the Premier League. At worst, they're just not good enough. That's all of our front three and back ups that have been disappointing so far. Two goals in five games between them. I don't think we'll get battered very often if ever, as Heaton, Mings, Engels and Guilbert are all excellent. The problems are at the other end of the pitch. It's disappointing.
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It’s a new team; new to each other and new to the country in many cases. There is obviously going to be a period of adjustment there are clear signs of how we want to play which is based on a solid defence and an ability to quickly turn defence into attack as our goals against Everton showed. It’s not fully functioning yet but it would be a surprise if it was given that they’ve only played together 5 times and some fewer than that.
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Looking at our next four fixtures if we can carry on keeping things tight at the back we could get something from the Arsenal game. I don't think they offer too much so long as you can keep their front two quiet (which admittedly is easier said than done). We have to fancy ourselves to win our two home games against Burnley and Brighton. I also fancy us to get something at Norwich. I would be more worried if I was a Norwich fan than I am as a Villa fan. They have been the great entertainers so far this season but they are conceding too many goals. The 'you score two and we will score three' spirit is not something they will get away with over a full season in the Premier League.
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My take on Villa thus far.
Positive:
Villa have a reasonable defence, but it frequently comes under excessive pressure.
Negative:
1. No defined style of play.
2. No proven goalscorers.
3. Midfield lacks coordination in build-up play (see 1).
4. Compared to other Premiership teams Villa appear tentative. They repeatedly fail to impose themselves on the opposition (as with 10 man West Ham), preferring to re-enact their version of the Battle of of the Alamo (as seen at Crystal Palace. Never mind the terrible refereeing, Villa should have lost by several goals).
Outlook:
Unless:
(i) a defined style is introduced with joined up midfield play, suitable for combating Premiership teams and
(ii) the attack is strengthened to enable Villa to score more goals, then there is only one possible outcome, relegation.
As soon as I got to the line that Villa should have lost by several goals to Palace I stopped reading because I don't get why some fans seem to think that any half-decent chance a team creates can be used as 'moral defeat' when they're trying to make a point. We conceded 1 and should've scored 1 but for one of the worst decisions any of us will ever see, we were robbed of a point despite not playing as well as we'd like. You add nothing to an argument by giving the opposition bonus goals.
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I'm not worried but like one or two others have said, I do wonder where the goals are coming from and also think that Jack and SJM are both playing too deep. Taylor has done fine defensively but offers nothing going forward. I'd like to see the following formation with the three behind the striker interchanging positions and the full backs getting forward quickly to support. Hourihane gets the nod for his ability to get into the box and for his set pieces but Trezeguet would also do well in there too.
Heaton
Guilbert Engels Mings Targett
Nakamba Douglas
Grealish McGinn Hourihane
Wesley
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NOW are you worried?
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Mildly.
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NOW are you worried?
No, we lost away at Arsenal, with 32 games to go.
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NOW are you worried?
Yes. Reminded me of Leicester in our relegation season
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Very worried now. It won't be long until the players' confidence disappears, and the atmosphere in the ground turns negative. That was utterly shit today. Two games in a row now against ten men, and one point to show for it.
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I am not going to panic after a defeat away to Arsenal, even if they did have a man sent off. The next three games against Burnley, Norwich and Brighton are massive. Struggle in those three and we will know it is looking likely to be a relegation battle.
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Very worried now. It won't be long until the players' confidence disappears, and the atmosphere in the ground turns negative. That was utterly shit today. Two games in a row now against ten men, and one point to show for it.
Get some Tena on your next supermarket trip. We've a lot of games to go.
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Next three games are huge for me.
Going into November still in single figure points isn't going to be pretty. We are already in bottom 3 as it is despite some good play in spells of many games.
Massive missed opportunity lost today I'm afraid.
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It would be nice if we occasionally won any of them.
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I am not going to panic after a defeat away to Arsenal, even if they did have a man sent off. The next three games against Burnley, Norwich and Brighton are massive. Struggle in those three and we will know it is looking likely to be a relegation battle.
Struggle in those three and there won't any likely about it.
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Yes today was massive and could be a catalyst either way.
The players will take some of the blame but also know they got no help from the manager when they needed it.
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Yes today was massive and could be a catalyst either way.
The players will take some of the blame but also know they got no help from the manager when they needed it.
Don't want to compare it to the Leicester game in 2015, but mentally I think it has to be compared.
The week after that game we put in a fucking insipid pathetic display losing at home to WBA.
This time we need a proper response and need to win.
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No.
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Cup match next up.
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I'm not worried as my main concern was whether we are able to compete and I feel satisfied that yes, we do belong here.
I think we're going to need to work on our own naivety as its cost us points this season and again today.
But we're needing 34 points from the last 32. Staying up is the only aim, we certainly can do it, but whether we will of course is another matter.
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It would be nice if we occasionally won any of them.
Haven't we won yet?
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It would be nice if we occasionally won any of them.
Haven't we won yet?
Yep. 1 out of 6, and 4 points.
= relegation form.
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I was always concerned that we, by necessity, had too big a rebuild on our hands. Maybe that was what Purslow was referencing when he said promotion had come a year early. Already tere are grounds to question some of the recent recruitment. I know he has his supporters, and may well prove an astute buy, but imo Konsa was a luxury we could have done without, whilst another forward was a priority we did without for one reason or another. I am bemused by Targett too - i realise he's been injured but he was overlooked immediately after an impressive pre-season in favour of Taylor, who most of us never wanted to see play at left back again. No one knows what the next 32 games will hold for us, but on the evidence of the first six, not much is my guess.
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I was always concerned that we, by necessity, had too big a rebuild on our hands. Maybe that was what Purslow was referencing when he said promotion had come a year early. Already tere are grounds to question some of the recent recruitment. I know he has his supporters, and may well prove an astute buy, but imo Konsa was a luxury we could have done without, whilst another forward was a priority we did without for one reason or another. I am bemused by Targett too - i realise he's been injured but he was overlooked immediately after an impressive pre-season in favour of Taylor, who most of us never wanted to see play at left back again. No one knows what the next 32 games will hold for us, but on the evidence of the first six, not much is my guess.
Konsa is cover for a long hard season. We should have signed another striker as well
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I am not going to panic after a defeat away to Arsenal, even if they did have a man sent off. The next three games against Burnley, Norwich and Brighton are massive. Struggle in those three and we will know it is looking likely to be a relegation battle.
with what confidence do we go into those three games?
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The one thing I do find positive is unlike 15/16 we know the investment is there and we won't be hung out to dry like we we were in January 16. A long long way to go but being patient is difficult, especially as after pretty much three seasons of winning games regularly (lower division or not) the feeling of losing every week is fucking depressing.
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It worries me that most of our players look knackered after half time, McGinn is our only goal threat yet tires badly in the second half.
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I mean, for people worried about the league table, the current top 4 in Spain (as things stand) is Athletic Bilbao, Sevilla, Granada, & Real Sociedad, and much as I'd love an all-Basque/Andalusian top 4 in Spain it really isn't going to happen.
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It is surely too early to factor in the league table too much. Obviously everyone would like a few more points on the board, but I don’t think the sample size is large enough to make definitive judgement.
Same with comparing other teams results at this stage (seen a few mention Watford drawing with Arsenal last week as though it makes today worse). The league seem much more like the Championship (in an everyone can beat everyone way) than it used to. West Ham, for example, I thought were fairly average against us, yet beat Manchester United today, who themselves beat a decent Leicester side last week.
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I think I might start being concerned if these next three league games don't yield a decent points return, particularly with two of them at home. Burnley are a streetwise and dogged team, Norwich and Brighton are games I expect us to be really competitive in and to pick up points. We will see. At some point, I expect the owners to put the feelers out. They would be daft if they didn't, surely they would want to protect their investment? I am not suggesting Dean Smith is ditched at this point but if we are 12 games in and still in the bottom three, I suggest things will get a bit twitchy.
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I mean, for people worried about the league table, the current top 4 in Spain (as things stand) is Athletic Bilbao, Sevilla, Granada, & Real Sociedad, and much as I'd love an all-Basque/Andalusian top 4 in Spain it really isn't going to happen.
If we were top 4 I'd probably think we weren't going to win the title, but being in the bottom three, and playing as we are, I think there's a decent chance we'll go down.
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I mean, for people worried about the league table, the current top 4 in Spain (as things stand) is Athletic Bilbao, Sevilla, Granada, & Real Sociedad, and much as I'd love an all-Basque/Andalusian top 4 in Spain it really isn't going to happen.
If we were top 4 I'd probably think we weren't going to win the title, but being in the bottom three, and playing as we are, I think there's a decent chance we'll go down.
Don't disagree, but it is still premature to draw conclusions.
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After today yes I am worried. The poor results when in 10 men situations is very big issue. Losing today was total incompetence and incompetent teams do not survive,
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We need to win next Saturday.
At the moment table is still condensed and not yet split into many seperate divisions beyond the top 2 who are miles better than everyone else.
We beat Burnley and we move to 7 points so one off Chelsea, Man. United, Sheffield United and a few other teams who have had comfortable starts and don't look like getting relegated.
Struggle to get wins in our next three and it's not going to be a real slog then up to middle of December as that's when the hard fixtures start piling up one after the other. Man. City and then Liverpool in one week at the start of November for example. Minor miracle to even get a point out of those two games.
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Keep saying this, I don’t want to be the plucky side who have a go but come up short. To throw away the game today, to only manage a draw v 10 man West Ham is very poor. It’s ok Dean or others saying it will be ok, fact is, we have thrown away points. We need to get clever and very quickly. 4 points from the next two games and yes things look different, but I can only comment on what has happened.
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Hope this plucky loser shit is not going to be a regular feature.
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Hope this plucky loser shit is not going to be a regular feature.
It won’t be if we start winning games
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There's undoubtedly a chance we'll finish bottom 3. We haven't been beaten out of sight but we've looked shambolic at points in games too often and losing 4 out of 6 tells its own story. Long way to go and as we saw last season form can switch dramatically. Hopefully there's some good times ahead this season but at the moment it's shit. Today was a real choker in particular.
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After today yes I am worried. The poor results when in 10 men situations is very big issue. Losing today was total incompetence and incompetent teams do not survive,
I think this is a nail on head comment.
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All season we’ve been saying played well but we need to learn about the PL quickly and cut out the silly mistakes which is true. But at the moment we appear to be doing neither. How long before the ‘it’s still early season, new team’ excuses start becoming the norm.
I’d say DS has 10/12 games. If we’re still treading water then i’d expect the owners to get twitchy. They like a name and I can see them going for Mouriniho.
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I’d say DS has 10/12 games. If we’re still treading water then i’d expect the owners to get twitchy. They like a name and I can see them going for Mouriniho.
Is there anything from them to suggest that? Surely if that was true they would have gone Henry over Dean Smith in the first place.
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Mourinho, really?
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They’ll either go internal (Terry) or tried and trusted PL experience. Henry was a name (just not a managerial one).
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Mourinho, really?
That’s who I think they’d go for yes.
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Interesting, but a debate / conversation hopefully we don’t have to have
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I hate to use the dreaded 'F' word but we are starting to sound very fickle very quickly. We might be Aston Villa but right now we are a newly promoted club who have spent the best part of a decade struggling to survive in the Premier League, failing to survive in the Premier League and then battling to get back into the Premier League. The criticism of the manager who got us promoted at the first time of asking is particularly unfair. Seriously, did anybody think this season was going to be a cakewalk?
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I hate to use the dreaded 'F' word but we are starting to sound very fickle very quickly. We might be Aston Villa but right now we are a newly promoted club who have spent the best part of a decade struggling to survive in the Premier League, failing to survive in the Premier League and then battling to get back into the Premier League. The criticism of the manager who got us promoted at the first time of asking is particularly unfair. Seriously, did anybody think this season was going to be a cakewalk?
You're right, it won't be a cakewalk, which is why thrown away three points like today are so hard to swallow, I guess.
There's nothing wrong with criticising him. We all fuck up, he just needs to not fuck up with the same thing repeatedly, that's the key.
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I really did not expect to see Dean Smith be so passive as his team were being torn apart by 10 men either.
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Interesting, but a debate / conversation hopefully we don’t have to have
Totally agree, I’d love nothing more than DS to be a massive success and be Villa manager for the next 10 years. It feels so right. But in the meantime he needs a few results on the next 5 games else he might be looking over his shoulder.
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I think he will be given plenty of time. It’s arguable that promotion was achieved ahead of schedule given the position when Dean Smith was appointed (and also in March)
Obviously targets and plans change once promotion is achieved - the owners (and Christian Purslow) are clearly not just going to be happy thinking it’s a bonus we are here let’s see what happens, but I think given the state of the squad following the play off final, he’ll be given a while to work with what is essentially a new team and squad of players.
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Asp from second half v spurs have not been outplayed
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Asp from second half v spurs have not been outplayed
I was at Palace and they outplayed us. I know about the “incident” at the end, but we could easily have been 2-0 down before that.
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Asp from second half v spurs have not been outplayed
We were totally outplayed by 10 men team. A team that played on Thursday but was still had more energy than us in the second half.
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Mourinho, really?
That’s who I think they’d go for yes.
Don't think he'd give us the time of the day. Would be more likely to go for a Javi Gracia if he's still out of work or even Nuno if Wolves sack him.
Obviously hope we don't change manager in near future but it may happen more quickly than people realise if we don't pick up a win or two in next three games. After that it's a tough 8 game period with only Newcastle at home looking really winnable.
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It was the 'Steve Bruce' substitution that fucked us. Bringing Elmo on effectively said to the players "this team, who you've gone toe-to-toe with for 70 minutes, we're now scared of them."
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Mourinho, really?
That’s who I think they’d go for yes.
Don't think he'd give us the time of the day. Would be more likely to go for a Javi Gracia if he's still out of work or even Nuno if Wolves sack him.
I'm basing that on the fact that we seem to like people who have previous connections - that's certainly something we did with our transfer business. I'm fairly sure Mouriniho worked with Purslow at Chelsea so you'd think they'd know each other well and obviously there's a massive connection between Mouriniho and John Terry.
Also he's 56 now, if Mouriniho wants to work in England again he probably needs to be looking at a club outside of the current top tier teams, cant see him pitching up at Man City, Liverpool, Spurs or Arsenal and he's already been at Chelsea (twice) and Man Utd. That leaves someone outside that group as a long term project that can offer him some serious financial backing to achieve it. Which leaves us, Everton and maybe Wolves at a push.
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Not yet no way. We’ve probably been our worst enemy in all our games this season, but we have shown enough quality for me to say we’ll turn it around. Also I’m sure as we did last season learn from this. Dean as much as the squad are new in this league and I have to believe that he and his coaching team will improve enough to finish mid table.
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IanJ,
I wish I had your optimism about turning around the current situation.
The last two games have highlighted the tactical incompetence of Dean Smith.
John McGinn’s post-match comments are illuminating:
But we got deeper and deeper and you can't do that. It is game management. It has cost us dearly this season.
When you force pressure on yourself you get punished. We need to capitalise when things go for us in the game.
If John McGinn can see the problem, why can't the manager? It is so glaringly obvious.
After promotion it was clear that the squad needed serious reinforcement to stand any chance of remaining in the Premiership. Unfortunately Villa seem to have followed Fulham in throwing a lot of money at Championship-standard players.
Despite this, I do think that a different manager who has some tactical nous would be capable of picking up more points with the same raw material.
Villa have chucked away vital points in the last two games thanks to Dean Smith’s tactical inadequacy and naivety at Premiership level.
The situation is only going to get much worse with him in charge. He is completely out of his depth and needs to go pronto.
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Not worried. More exasperated.
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Qwerty, I don't think Guilbert, Heaton, Mings, Engels, Nakamba, and Luiz, but to name a few, are Championship quality level.
Wesley and El Ghazi on current form might be, but they may come good. I've seen El Ghazi on form, and how I wish he could perform consistently. And then there's Trezeguet. I like him and think he'll be a really important player for us.
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alot of teams we will play wount be bothered if they go down to 10 men as it never works in our favor
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qwerty has signed up and made two posts: one telling us we are doomed to relegation, and the other telling us Dean needs to go.
Welcome to the site! I'm eagerly awaiting the third post.
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qwerty has signed up and made two posts: one telling us we are doomed to relegation, and the other telling us Dean needs to go.
Welcome to the site! I'm eagerly awaiting the third post.
Maybe the third one will be to say the owners need to sell up.
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qwerty has signed up and made two posts: one telling us we are doomed to relegation, and the other telling us Dean needs to go.
Welcome to the site! I'm eagerly awaiting the third post.
I'm waiting to see what his mate asdfgh has to say about it all.
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I'm glad I'm not the only one to have spotted the cupboard dwelling, thigh rubbing jerk-off keyboard warrior.
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I'm glad I'm not the only one to have spotted the cupboard dwelling, thigh rubbing jerk-off keyboard warrior.
AKA a Nose.
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also known as a person entitled to an opinion?
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Yes, even though he/she is wrong.
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It's such an obvious giveaway, qwerty the keyboard. His mate azerty will be next.
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also known as a person entitled to an opinion?
Nobody has stopped them from giving one. I gave mine. Politely. I can't see what the problem is.
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Bad English & mr underhill,
Thank you for allowing to have my say on this forum, regardless of whether anybody else agrees with me or just thinks I am talking out of my backside.
Aston Villa is as much my club as it is to all the other fans who post on H & V.
It pains me to see Villa struggling after all that effort to get out of the Championship.
The last thing we all want is for Villa to go down after just one season.
@Abbeyfealeavefc,
I am afraid that you are reading far too much into the name qwerty.
Would it be too much to ask for you to refrain from making such obnoxious comments about other posters in the future?
It does you no credit whatsoever.
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It pains me to see Villa struggling after all that effort to get out of the Championship.
we are not struggling! - we have held our own for most of the matches against Spurs and Arsenal who have finished top 6 for how many years?. More than held our own against a decent West Ham team, beaten Everton and should have beaten Bournemouth. We have been denied 2 points from ludicrous VAR decisions against Palace and Arsenal. Had we got those we would be on 6 points only 2 points behind Spurs and Man Utd! Naïve yes, struggling definitely not. It is a massive learning curve in the step up from the championship to the premier league and this takes time. I will see how we are doing at Christmas time - until then I will ignore the negative opinions of many fickle supporters on here and twitter who are exact same ones calling for Dean Smiths head in January last year and we know what happened after that!
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we are not struggling! - we have held our own for most of the matches against Spurs and Arsenal who have finished top 6 for how many years?. More than held our own against a decent West Ham team, beaten Everton and should have beaten Bournemouth. We have been denied 2 points from ludicrous VAR decisions against Palace and Arsenal. Had we got those we would be on 6 points only 2 points behind Spurs and Man Utd! Naïve yes, struggling definitely not. It is a massive learning curve in the step up from the championship to the premier league and this takes time. I will see how we are doing at Christmas time - until then I will ignore the negative opinions of many fickle supporters on here and twitter who are exact same ones calling for Dean Smiths head in January last year and we know what happened after that!
[/quote]
Nail. Head
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It pains me to see Villa struggling after all that effort to get out of the Championship.
we are not struggling! - we have held our own for most of the matches against Spurs and Arsenal who have finished top 6 for how many years?. More than held our own against a decent West Ham team, beaten Everton and should have beaten Bournemouth. We have been denied 2 points from ludicrous VAR decisions against Palace and Arsenal. Had we got those we would be on 6 points only 2 points behind Spurs and Man Utd! Naïve yes, struggling definitely not. It is a massive learning curve in the step up from the championship to the premier league and this takes time. I will see how we are doing at Christmas time - until then I will ignore the negative opinions of many fickle supporters on here and twitter who are exact same ones calling for Dean Smiths head in January last year and we know what happened after that!
Agree with this. Think we will have a far better idea of where we are after the next three league games.
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It pains me to see Villa struggling after all that effort to get out of the Championship.
we are not struggling! - we have held our own for most of the matches against Spurs and Arsenal who have finished top 6 for how many years?. More than held our own against a decent West Ham team, beaten Everton and should have beaten Bournemouth. We have been denied 2 points from ludicrous VAR decisions against Palace and Arsenal. Had we got those we would be on 6 points only 2 points behind Spurs and Man Utd! Naïve yes, struggling definitely not. It is a massive learning curve in the step up from the championship to the premier league and this takes time. I will see how we are doing at Christmas time - until then I will ignore the negative opinions of many fickle supporters on here and twitter who are exact same ones calling for Dean Smiths head in January last year and we know what happened after that!
I agree with this. The only game I'm pissed off about is the Bournemouth game, we should've won that one, but gave them a 2 goal start. After watching the Newcastle home match on Saturday, they are in a much worse state than us. The team are hopeless, 25% possession at home against Brighton. The club as a whole is in a similar state to when we went down, nobody cares. At least there's optimism back at Villa. I think we'll have enough to stay up, see where we're at Christmas like you say.
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Hahahaha qwerty
Get over yourself mate!
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also known as a person entitled to an opinion?
Why is it that those who moan about not being allowed to have an opinion are invariably the ones who think nobody should ever dissgree with them?
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Yep. This may be crossing-over with the 'Realistic Expectations' thread but I agree there are at least 3 teams who are obviously worse than us and I'd expect after the whole season to see us finish above them;
Watford
Brighton
Newcastle
I'd add that Crystal Palace and Southampton may well perform worse than us as well.
We've begun gelling a new team and that will take time. We have a capable and skilled set of staff, a terrific set of players who are more than good enough to get better and better and, most importantly, a big and growing fanbase wager for good football. The future is bright.
No, I'm not worried, I'm excited. UTV.
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Yep. This may be crossing-over with the 'Realistic Expectations' thread but I agree there are at least 3 teams who are obviously worse than us and I'd expect after the whole season to see us finish above them;
Watford
Brighton
Newcastle
I'd add that Crystal Palace and Southampton may well perform worse than us as well.
We've begun gelling a new team and that will take time. We have a capable and skilled set of staff, a terrific set of players who are more than good enough to get better and better and, most importantly, a big and growing fanbase wager for good football. The future is bright.
No, I'm not worried, I'm excited. UTV.
What also provides some reassurance is the thought that if things do begin to slide badly enough for the button to be pushed on DS, the ambition and the money is seemingly there for a more than decent replacement to be attracted to the club and reinforcements brought in during the January transfer window.
Obviously hope the former of those is not required.
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On Sunday, after the match, I thought we were doomed. I expected to get battered by them, losing 3 or 4 nil, but somehow losing like that was much, much worse. Yesterday, I was angry, mainly with the officiating - it felt a bit like the world was against us.
Today though, I feel much more positive. I've watched our goals back and they are both excellent; the first a long, patient build up, stringing together passes from back to front, right to left - they didn't get near us. And the second was all about Jack - driving 50 yards, with the defence to scared to make a tackle, and our star striker being clinical. It's the goal we've been waiting for all season.
So on Sunday, I was very much of the opinion that if we couldn't get something from that match, how on earth are we going to get enough points to stay up? Not a wholly unreasonable position, but one I've shrugged off. Now I'm thinking that things are just starting to click. That we're seeing glimpses of what we expected to see this team doing: passing through teams, running at defences, taking the game to teams no matter who they are. We outplayed Arsenal for a long time on Sunday, now we have to build on that.
The weaknesses in our team are definitely concerning, but the biggest problem at for us at the moment is mental - the sort of thing you learn with experience and we are getting taught lessons by the bucket load at the moment. It may well stand us in good stead later on in the season.
Personally, I think now is the time to really get behind Dean and the team. A lot of us said that we've got to give Dean time, and even if we went down, we'd trust him to bring us back up and build something lasting. (Presumably, having been relegated without losing a match and playing fantastically every week..!) Well this is the moment we need to all step up - three points on Saturday would be massive, and we need to create an atmosphere like the Everton match.
This time last year we were losing to Millwall, Wednesday and QPR, and look how we turned it around. We're just getting started, there is no need to worry.
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I had to drive down for meetings in Brisbane today. I went back through a few Villa View podcasts from February.
It’s amazing how far we’ve come from where we were then. I’m not suggesting all is rosy but it bloody well cheered me up.
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I'd say at this stage there's a good ten clubs who are all capable of finishing in the bottom three. The difference between staying up and going down will be overall squad ability and depth, allied to team spirit and fan support. If Villa fans, home and away, can stick together throughout the inevitable ups and downs of this particular campaign, and we use our squad and January transfer window wisely, we can survive and build/kick on again next season. Villa Park, especially, will play a crucial part this season, we have to keep the "Everton match atmosphere" up win, lose or draw.
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I had to drive down for meetings in Brisbane today. I went back through a few Villa View podcasts from February.
It’s amazing how far we’ve come from where we were then. I’m not suggesting all is rosy but it bloody well cheered me up.
Exactly, this time last year we were losing 1-2 at home to Sheffield Wednesday. If someone had told me then that we would be back in the top flight a year later, bitterly frustrated due to losing at the Emirates, I wouldn't have believed it. We have travelled a huge distance in a very short time and a lot of the reason for that, in my opinion, is the bond that was rekindled between the Club and the fanbase. If we stick together we can push on.
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I didn't watch the Arsenal game live, but watched a full replay last night, after having watched MOTD on Saturday night, and read people’s reactions on here.
In my opinion we were the better team in the first half, and despite conceding a goal, looked fairly comfortable until around the 70 minute mark – just before Arsenal made their double substitution. The double substitution was a really positive and well-timed intervention to support the pressure Arsenal had started to put on us immediately before this. From that point on we lost control of the game, only coming back into it after Arsenal had taken the lead – although they saw the game out much more competently than we had been doing previously.
I think Terry Gibson was the co-commentator, and whilst it was fairly obvious stuff, I thought he summarised events very well. He was saying early in the second half that we were the better team, but wasteful, and needed to make the extra man count as Arsenal would have a spell at some point in the game despite being a man down. It felt like we were taking things for granted and lacked urgency in that period between the sending-off and the double substitution – we seemed happy to trundle along with a one goal lead.
We obviously need to learn how to make an extra man count. I think this is partly tactical, and comes from the shape and substitutions made by DS, and partly down to the urgency and decisiveness shown by the players. I think both were suspect on Saturday, and we let a game that we should have been bossing escape from us. Arsenal are apparently the only team I n the EPL who have won more matches than they have lost when they have a player sent off. I can understand why this is the case, as the best form of defence is attack, and they generally take the game to the opposition.
The really important thing is to learn from it. We needed to be the team taking the initiative and asking the questions in the second half, and the substitutions needed to be in pursuit of that.
More generally, the two most reliable weapons we currently have in my opinion are Jack carrying the ball towards the opposition penalty box, and Conor taking dead balls. Jack needs to be in the right position to be making those runs with the ball, as they frequently result in goals. I don’t understand why it only happens once or twice a game – we should be trying to orchestrate this at every opportunity.
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We don't seem to be playing as a coherent unit. We look like a group of individuals, with individual ideas, who occasionally link for the odd bit of good play, seemingly by accident rather than design.
Obviously this is mostly down to playing in a new division with a lot of new players. Dean's job is to get us playing as that coherent unit, and quickly, otherwise we will go down.
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This is by no means a certain-doom prediction, but we've taken 2 points from Bournemouth, West Ham and Burnley at home, and 0 points away. I think we're a good side, but at the moment I don't think we're better than 3 other sides in this division.
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I honestly can't remember how we stopped up during those Lambert seasons; all I know is that somehow we did. That's what I'm hoping for this time around, because quite honestly I don't have the stomach for a promotion battle again. Just work it out, Smith, ffs.
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Hopefully we’ve not yet played the teams who are worse than us to finish above.
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Yes because we’re continuing to make the same sort of mistakes.
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I think back to the relegation season and a lot of the games blur into one mass of utter shit. But I remember winning the opener at Bournemouth and thinking we'd be okay, and eventually getting that home win against Palace in January or whenever it was, and knowing it was a blip. Right now I'm considering the Everton match and trying to work out whether it's a Bournemouth moment.
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This is by no means a certain-doom prediction, but we've taken 2 points from Bournemouth, West Ham and Burnley at home, and 0 points away. I think we're a good side, but at the moment I don't think we're better than 3 other sides in this division.
at the moment we're the third worst team in the prem
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I honestly can't remember how we stopped up during those Lambert seasons; all I know is that somehow we did. That's what I'm hoping for this time around, because quite honestly I don't have the stomach for a promotion battle again. Just work it out, Smith, ffs.
Lambert's first season actually reminds me very much of this one.
At the time it was seen as promising summer window but we still signed largely a number of unknowns who lacked prem experience. We were in games just as we are now but were struggling to score and get wins on the board.
Were in bottom 5 pretty much first half of the season and then that nightmare December run happened and we look dead and buried after that.
There's always a way to stay up. January window is looking huge. We can't gamble on signing more project players, we have enough of those at the club.
Need 2 experienced and proven final third players on loan or here full time. Plenty on fringes of top sides will want to go and play week in week out with Euro 2020 so don't buy any argument we couldn't sign them.
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This is by no means a certain-doom prediction, but we've taken 2 points from Bournemouth, West Ham and Burnley at home, and 0 points away. I think we're a good side, but at the moment I don't think we're better than 3 other sides in this division.
Completely agree that we should be targeting more points from those games, and I would obviously be more concerned with our results and performances, but I can imagine that fans of a few other teams around us probably thinking something similar (with some similar fixtures):
Brighton - 2 points from West Ham, Burnley and Southampton at home
Newcastle - Draws against Watford and Brighton at home
Watford - Zero points from West Ham and Brighton at home
Norwich - Zero points or goals against West Ham, Burnley and Palace away
Even heard two Everton fans on a phone in (not the best place to gauge an opinion granted) last week saying they couldn’t think of three teams that had been worse than them this season.
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I think back to the relegation season and a lot of the games blur into one mass of utter shit. But I remember winning the opener at Bournemouth and thinking we'd be okay, and eventually getting that home win against Palace in January or whenever it was, and knowing it was a blip. Right now I'm considering the Everton match and trying to work out whether it's a Bournemouth moment.
Start of that season we had WBA, Swansea, Stoke, Sunderland, Watford and West Ham as home games up to January. We managed 2 points from that.
Blunt truth is to stop up you need to average around 25-30 points from home games over a season. If you can't beat enough bottom half teams than that dosen't half put some pressure to get a shock win or two.
Given our dismal record v likes of liverpool, Arsenal and of course Man. United on our turf it's not an advisable tactic for us.
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Agree it is a bit like Lambert's first season, funnily enough though I don't think Yacouba Sylla would improve our midfield as much as he did those first few months he was here.
Genuinely can't remember who we had playing next to Vlaar. Was it Clark ?
Actually think only the 2012 Agbonlahor and Benteke would get into today's team.
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Agree it is a bit like Lambert's first season, funnily enough though I don't think Yacouba Sylla would improve our midfield as much as he did those first few months he was here.
Genuinely can't remember who we had playing next to Vlaar. Was it Clark ?
Actually think only the 2012 Agbonlahor and Benteke would get into today's team.
Yes Clark was regular that year at CB. Full back were Lowton and mainly Bennett with cameos from Lichaj/Enda Stevens/Baker.
Midfield was pretty poor for much of the season until the run in when Delph-Westwood-Sylla did a good job covering ground for the front three.
I think we had much better options than we did in defence and midfield back then. Can't say the same about final third though.
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Agree it is a bit like Lambert's first season, funnily enough though I don't think Yacouba Sylla would improve our midfield as much as he did those first few months he was here.
Genuinely can't remember who we had playing next to Vlaar. Was it Clark ?
Actually think only the 2012 Agbonlahor and Benteke would get into today's team.
Yes Clark was regular that year at CB. Full back were Lowton and mainly Bennett with cameos from Lichaj/Enda Stevens/Baker.
Midfield was pretty poor for much of the season until the run in when Delph-Westwood-Sylla did a good job covering ground for the front three.
I think we had much better options than we did in defence and midfield back then. Can't say the same about final third though.
Yeah, although I'm perhaps being overly harsh on Vlaar and Delph.
I Definitely wouldn't fire up the delorean for the fullbacks or GK though!
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Blunt truth is to stop up you need to average around 25-30 points from home games over a season. If you can't beat enough bottom half teams than that dosen't half put some pressure to get a shock win or two.
Given our dismal record v likes of liverpool, Arsenal and of course Man. United on our turf it's not an advisable tactic for us.
Admittedly I’m trying to look at things in a positive light, but we are averaging what, a shade under 24 points over the season currently, so not far off that target.
Yes, we have the toughest fixtures to come, but we have also played two teams many expected to finish in the top eight this season, so have a decent amount of ‘bottom half’ teams to play at home still.
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Actually just checked back. In Lambert seasons and McLeish year we only averaged about 20 points over the season at VP so I probably set back a little too high and we're on course to beat that.
Need to start picking up some points on the road starting in Norfolk.
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Yeah, I wouldn’t be too concerned with our home form just yet. Disappointed that we haven’t taken a couple of good opportunities to register more points, but not particularly worried.
Would definitely be nice for the squad to get a result away from home, for their confidence and belief to do so if nothing else. However, the three teams we have played away have only lost a single home game between them so far, so definitely easiest games to come there.
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Tonight we are 16 points behind Liverpool. I am beginning to think we will struggle to catch them😏
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Tonight we are 16 points behind Liverpool. I am beginning to think we will struggle to catch them😏
Leave the room. We need believers.
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The positive thing is that we're not being royally fucked over every week. We're in games but stupid errors cost us.
We can do this. And I believe we will.
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The positive thing is that we're not being royally fucked over every week. We're in games but stupid errors cost us.
We can do this. And I believe we will.
Me too.
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I honestly can't remember how we stopped up during those Lambert seasons; all I know is that somehow we did. That's what I'm hoping for this time around, because quite honestly I don't have the stomach for a promotion battle again. Just work it out, Smith, ffs.
Was thinking about that during the game today. We were dire under Lambert, but still managed to stay up. I think we are a better side than then, but we did have Benteke back then, who was a real threat and we haven't got anything close to him at the moment.
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I have a horrible feeling we are shaping up for one of those 'plucky losers, came and tried to play the game the right way, but went straight back down' relegations.
It's much better than our last relegation, which was a comedy one, mind.
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I honestly can't remember how we stopped up during those Lambert seasons; all I know is that somehow we did. That's what I'm hoping for this time around, because quite honestly I don't have the stomach for a promotion battle again. Just work it out, Smith, ffs.
Was thinking about that during the game today. We were dire under Lambert, but still managed to stay up. I think we are a better side than then, but we did have Benteke back then, who was a real threat and we haven't got anything close to him at the moment.
Benteke of 2013/14 in this team would see us upper mid table now for sure.
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I honestly can't remember how we stopped up during those Lambert seasons; all I know is that somehow we did. That's what I'm hoping for this time around, because quite honestly I don't have the stomach for a promotion battle again. Just work it out, Smith, ffs.
Was thinking about that during the game today. We were dire under Lambert, but still managed to stay up. I think we are a better side than then, but we did have Benteke back then, who was a real threat and we haven't got anything close to him at the moment.
Benteke of 2013/14 in this team would see us upper mid table now for sure.
agree
Makes a hell of a difference having a player as good as he was.
I think we are in trouble and Smith is worrying me because he seems a bit stuck.
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It’s because we have no striker options. Kodja being injured leaves only Davis. If Smith sticks with 4-3-3 he has to play Wesley who lacks consistency along with AEG and Trez.
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It’s because we have no striker options. Kodja being injured leaves only Davis. If Smith sticks with 4-3-3 he has to play Wesley who lacks consistency along with AEG and Trez.
Davis showed more in 10 minutes than Wesley in nearly 90.
Davis has to be given a chance.
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Not that worried yet. We've shown we're capable (despite obvious quality issues in key areas), but we do need to improve.
The next 6 league games have 4 games we should be looking to get points from. 2 wins, 2 draws and 2 losses would see us on 1 point per game of 13 from 13.
It's not ideal but if we can stay around that ratio until January hopefully we can get some short term signings to keep us up. We should be looking at Premier League proven players now (ahem Batshuayi and Damarai Gray), who can come in and make an impact.
My main concern is that the bottom 3 are the teams with the worst forwards. Watford have Welbeck and Deeney to come in, and above us Norwich have Pukki and Southampton have Ings who look capable to score enough to keep them up.
Trezeguet improved from the bench so that's a positive. Anwar looked good. Wesley needs to improve but there are positives. Just need to stay with it, and should we go down we should stick with Smith (unless something changes wildly.
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I’m not worried about any aspect of the team apart from our striker situation (which is obviously a concern).
What’s the situation with free agents and is there anyone still out there we can look to get an hour out of at least?
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We're one point off 17th, (which effectively should be our target).
We're 3 points off 11th (and being above Man Utd).
One draw behind Norwich, one win behind Sheffield United.
If we'd not lost all those points from winning positions we'd have another 8 and be third.
Basically this is absolutely not the time to panic. We're giving away silly goals but we can, and will, get better.
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I’m not worried about any aspect of the tram apart from our striker situation (which is obviously a concern).
What’s the situation with free agents and is there anyone still out there we can look to get an hour out of at least?
I occasionally wonder if typos are deliberate to take threads off track into punathons.
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I’m worried, but not panicking. I see much good in the team. We are a million miles away from where we were last two seasons on this league.
But, the bottom line is we’re in the bottom three with nearly a quarter of the season gone. We haven’t had, on paper, a hard start. We need to win home games against the likes of Bournemouth and Burnley and a 10 man West Ham really). Mistakes get punished instantly in this league, and it’s costing us dearly.
I just hope we are learning and improving enough to be ok. It’s hopefully looking like Watford will be the team that will struggle all season, leaving us needing to be better than two other teams. Fingers crossed we will be.
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I'm not too worried either. We were never going to come out of the blocks firing and we've had our fair share of bad luck but we've also not helped ourselves either. I think we'll be fine.
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I always worry when I see a Villa side that collectively shits itself when under the slightest bit of pressure.
We already look like a team that doesn't know how to see a game out and get a win. The fans already expect us to lose a lead, and the players look like they're in the same frame of mind.
Can Smith change that around?
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I’m not too worried. I think that if we had the striker options that we all (including DS) knew we needed in the summer, then we would be comfortably mid-table now. It is important not to panic, as to throw everything out of the window when it’s very close to clicking, would be idiotic. However, it is critical that we are still in touch by January, so that the season is not a write-off, and it is worth signing a striker in the window. Our last season in this division started similarly to this one, but we then hardly picked-up any more points until January I think. It feels like from now until January is what will define our season - it could go either way, but I think staying positive, and doing what we currently are (in broad terms) is the best course of action. That doesn’t mean not trying Davis or Kodjia instead of Wesley or similar tweaks, and closing down games better.
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Is it safe to come back on the site yet? Have all the titty-babbies finished their crying? Have all the infants finished blowing their snot-bubbles? Have all the Mystic Megs finished telling us how the rest of the season will go? From their font of wise and truthful knowledge and their complete stock of inside information?
Good.
The Burnley forum wasn’t wrong when it said we have ‘temperamental’ supporters they just meant infantile and they were referring to times like those we’ve had immediately after the last 2 games. If this were a site for schoolkids you’d feel justified in saying ‘Stop being so childish, you’re fourteen now; act like it’.
‘Smith out’, ‘We’ll be relegated’, ‘We are in trouble’, ‘Questions need to be asked of Grealish’, ‘Wesley is utter shite’, ‘Taylor is crap’, ‘getting embarrassing now’, ‘ I can’t see us surviving’, ‘our striker is a waste of a shirt’, ‘huge couple of games before the tin hats and blindfolds come out’, ‘Deano doesn’t look up to PL standard’, ‘it’s just not good enough’, ‘the honeymoon is over’, ‘As it stands we’re fucked’, ‘I can see us going down, easily’, ‘we’re clearly out of ideas’, ‘we’re going down’, ‘ and that’s just on the post-match thread. With friends like these who needs opponents?
It’s still September; we have a great manager and coaching staff; we have a great playing staff; it’s still September.
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Quite right. Lots of positives, just need to get into the swing. Oh and hope no opposition players get sent off!
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The positive thing is that we're not being royally fucked over every week. We're in games but stupid errors cost us.
We can do this. And I believe we will.
On a negative note in 15/16 the first time we lost a game by more than one goal margin was middle of that October!
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It’s because we have no striker options. Kodja being injured leaves only Davis. If Smith sticks with 4-3-3 he has to play Wesley who lacks consistency along with AEG and Trez.
The striker situation isn't great but we are scoring enough goals to win games. It's the conceding of goals that is a more urgent problem.
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Is it safe to come back on the site yet? Have the self proclaimed stoics acting the hard man gone yet?
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Is it safe to come back on the site yet? Have all the titty-babbies finished their crying? Have all the infants finished blowing their snot-bubbles? Have all the Mystic Megs finished telling us how the rest of the season will go? From their font of wise and truthful knowledge and their complete stock of inside information?
Stop being so childish, you’re fourteen now; act like it.
;)
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Posted this in post Burnley thread but probably better off here...
Marvellous is turning world class and is our best performer by far. Watching live yesterday, his no nonsense tackling, constant distribution, going forward decision making and loads of taps and flicks to dispossess opposition was top drawer. Luiz started season well and I liked him but something dramatic needs to happen to get his place back unless Luiz plays odd game as a sitter with marvellous further forward giving jack or mcginn an occasional rest .
Good to see Connor back and Targett will be reliable if they can get his hamstrings sorted. I’m glad Deano had balls to tweak system and personal.
He needs to have balls to put Hause LB whilst Targett out and drop Engels for a bit as he’s made poor decisions last few weeks and cost penalties/goals to give Konsa a chance to play with mings .
Until we get another quality striker option to start as choice from Wesley and another decent option off bench we will be in the bottom 5 until January unfortunately .
If we make those January acquisitions and pull a run out of the bag half as good as last year between feb - April hopefully we’ll survive
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I'm concerned that we've conceded five very preventable goals in the last two games due to defensive lapses. That was our strong point up to then. I'm concerned that Wesley doesn't seem to be cutting the mustard but Smith seems wary of giving Davis a run. Surely it's worth a try? I'm concerned Smith is persisting with Taylor who is (usually) just about ok defensively but offers nothing going forward. I'm concerned that Trezeguet shows some good touches but lacked composure when wasting two or three clear chances which could have given us two goal cushions. I'm also concerned that refs and VAR officials have given some bloody awful decisions against us, a trend that needs to change if we are to have any chance. I'm concerned that we can't seem to last more than 70 minutes without looking knackered. I'm concerned that we seem to fall apart when faced with only 10 men. I'm concerned that Smith seems dumbfounded when the opposition make formation and tactical changes, and slow to react when our players are obviously knackered. I'm concerned that there aren't any obvious relegation fodder teams in the PL this year - even Watford looked they could play a bit against Arsenal.
Apart from that everything is fine and dandy, and it is only September....
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'Titty babies', good grief. We've had a concerning start to the league season and look to have done problems. As I said, I think we're a good side, but it's a tough league and good sides can and will go down.
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Is it safe to come back on the site yet? Have all the titty-babbies finished their crying? Have all the infants finished blowing their snot-bubbles? Have all the Mystic Megs finished telling us how the rest of the season will go? From their font of wise and truthful knowledge and their complete stock of inside information?
Good.
The Burnley forum wasn’t wrong when it said we have ‘temperamental’ supporters they just meant infantile and they were referring to times like those we’ve had immediately after the last 2 games. If this were a site for schoolkids you’d feel justified in saying ‘Stop being so childish, you’re fourteen now; act like it’.
Says the man who wants to start a petition against a referee because 'it's not fair.'
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I'm concerned that we've conceded five very preventable goals in the last two games due to defensive lapses. That was our strong point up to then. I'm concerned that Wesley doesn't seem to be cutting the mustard but Smith seems wary of giving Davis a run. Surely it's worth a try? I'm concerned Smith is persisting with Taylor who is (usually) just about ok defensively but offers nothing going forward. I'm concerned that Trezeguet shows some good touches but lacked composure when wasting two or three clear chances which could have given us two goal cushions. I'm also concerned that refs and VAR officials have given some bloody awful decisions against us, a trend that needs to change if we are to have any chance. I'm concerned that we can't seem to last more than 70 minutes without looking knackered. I'm concerned that we seem to fall apart when faced with only 10 men. I'm concerned that Smith seems dumbfounded when the opposition make formation and tactical changes, and slow to react when our players are obviously knackered. I'm concerned that there aren't any obvious relegation fodder teams in the PL this year - even Watford looked they could play a bit against Arsenal.
Apart from that everything is fine and dandy, and it is only September....
You Titty Baby. ;)
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We're one point off 17th, (which effectively should be our target).
We're 3 points off 11th (and being above Man Utd).
One draw behind Norwich, one win behind Sheffield United.
If we'd not lost all those points from winning positions we'd have another 8 and be third.
Basically this is absolutely not the time to panic. We're giving away silly goals but we can, and will, get better.
So what you're saying is that if we had more points, we'd have more points, and be higher up the table. Can't really argue with that I suppose.
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I'm sorry but saying "we have a great playing staff" is horseshit.
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Other than the defence, the rest of the team isn't really much of an improvement on last year, and in effectively swapping Tammy for Wesley, we've massively weakened the front three.
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Would you not say that Nkamaba looks like he will be a big improvement on playing Hourihane as a number six, Risso? Or that Trezeguet is a step up from Adomah/Green?
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Would you not say that Nkamaba looks like he will be a big improvement on playing Hourihane as a number six, Risso? Or that Trezeguet is a step up from Adomah/Green?
I would yes. And as for replacing a much loved striker that wasn’t ours, it was always going to be difficult as a newly promoted club.
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The only position our best 11 this season isn't either stronger or at least on a par with the best 11 of last season is the striker imo.
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The only position our best 11 this season isn't either stronger or at least on a par with the best 11 of last season is the striker imo.
agreed. If we just had the same, so if Tammy was still with us we'd be in a much better position. For the grief some gave Tammy last year (I really didn't get why) his movement and instinct are off the chart compared to Wesley. Such a shame really that Chelsea had the transfer ban.
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The only position our best 11 this season isn't either stronger or at least on a par with the best 11 of last season is the striker imo.
Agreed. Would have loved to keep Abraham.
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If we had Tammy this season I agree we'd most likely be in a better position, if we had the team from last season we'd be nailed on for the drop imo.
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Yes, I think my worries about Abraham were definitely wrong. But whether I thought he was up to it or not, there was never any chance of him coming here again.
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Yeah, he was never coming this season sadly. While he always spoke warmly of us while he was here, I can understand him having an emotional attachment to Chelsea and wanting to try and make it there given he has been there since he was seven or eight.
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Michy Batshuyai is very similar to Tammy. Won't offer huge amount in build up play but get crosses into six yard box and he'll get on the end of them.
Would be looking for someone like him in January, reasonably proven and will want to play with Euro 2020 coming up. Palace got him on six month loan last January.
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The only position our best 11 this season isn't either stronger or at least on a par with the best 11 of last season is the striker imo.
agreed. If we just had the same, so if Tammy was still with us we'd be in a much better position. For the grief some gave Tammy last year (I really didn't get why) his movement and instinct are off the chart compared to Wesley. Such a shame really that Chelsea had the transfer ban.
ten years of worrying about FFP and it ends up affecting us because another club broke the rules.
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I'm not worried.
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Would you not say that Nkamaba looks like he will be a big improvement on playing Hourihane as a number six, Risso? Or that Trezeguet is a step up from Adomah/Green?
Was impressed with Nkamaba again yesterday and can only really remember him giving the ball away once. Liked McGinn in that more advanced role, but thought Hourihane was pretty anonymous and the game passed him by. If Douglas can get up to speed then him and Nkamaba with McGinn in front of them could be a pretty decent midfield trio.
Thought Trezeguet offered more than El Ghazi in the time he was on, even though the latter did get a goal.
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We're one point off 17th, (which effectively should be our target).
We're 3 points off 11th (and being above Man Utd).
One draw behind Norwich, one win behind Sheffield United.
If we'd not lost all those points from winning positions we'd have another 8 and be third.
Basically this is absolutely not the time to panic. We're giving away silly goals but we can, and will, get better.
So what you're saying is that if we had more points, we'd have more points, and be higher up the table. Can't really argue with that I suppose.
Yeah, that's right Risso. For once you can't find something to argue about. Do you want to complain about it anyway?
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You’re such a pant wetter Drummond.
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You’re such a pant wetter Drummond.
They're sipping wet Risso. I think you're just mistaking it for excitement though.
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You see, Risso, I'm not the one who's worried. I'm not the one who thinks the end is nigh, who thinks everyone is shit, a waste of money and out of their depth. I think we'll be fine. I think our manager is great, will do a fine job for us and will be talked about for years.
We're not having the best run, but we're not being fucked over either. We haven't got a divine right to walk the league or to beat anyone. Based on the league positions last year, we started this as the lowest ranked.
We spent a lot of money replacing half the squad or making loans permanent. Given all the changes I think we need time to gel but already there are some great signs.
Of course I'd rather we won every game, of course I'm disappointed when we don't, but let's not cry about it eh?
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I’m with you on this one Drummond, I actually like watching us play, although I do get frustrated. We could do with a bit of luck, that would be nice. However I’m still very confident this team will start getting the results soon.
My brother, has already, after their might win against Watford started the “Mind the Gap” now they are above us. That’s the first time they have even taken the lead in a match this season!
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I find it weird when people only seem to see things in a binary way. We are neither absolutely dreadful or brilliant. Dean is not a great manager, he may get there one day he may not, but he’s also not hopeless. Villa aren’t doing great at the minute, but it doesn’t mean we need to sack the manager and equally it doesn’t mean we give him a lifetime contract and can’t question him.
We need to be better and hopefully Dean knows how to sort it, if he doesn’t he won’t last.
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I find it weird when people only seem to see things in a binary way. We are neither absolutely dreadful or brilliant. Dean is not a great manager, he may get there one day he may not, but he’s also not hopeless. Villa aren’t doing great at the minute, but it doesn’t mean we need to sack the manager and equally it doesn’t mean we give him a lifetime contract and can’t question him.
We need to be better and hopefully Dean knows how to sort it, if he doesn’t he won’t last.
That's very deep. Too deep for me anyroad
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I think a fair few people got excited after the euphoric end to last season. That and maybe seeing premier league not being great last few seasons led to a few thinking we'd actually do a Wolves and be comfortable in top half.
Reality for me and I said it in the pre season prediction thread was 14th place on 42 points. I don't think I'll be that far out either way.
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16th.
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Watching Newcastle and Watford certainly helps you be less worried. We’re miles better than them and certainly at least 1 other team in this division.
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Brighton and Norwich are massive games. Burnley is one we should have won, but I thought they were actually a trickier opponent for us than better teams, because of the physicality and shithousery, which we don’t cope well with.
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Watching Newcastle and Watford certainly helps you be less worried. We’re miles better than them and certainly at least 1 other team in this division.
I really think we need to stop thinking we are miles better than any one in this league.
We quite obviously are not.
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Disagree, I think our league position is a slightly false reflection of how we’ve played 1 extra point (I’m looking at you Kevin Friend) makes a difference such is the congested league.
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I'm concerned that we've conceded five very preventable goals in the last two games due to defensive lapses. That was our strong point up to then. I'm concerned that Wesley doesn't seem to be cutting the mustard but Smith seems wary of giving Davis a run. Surely it's worth a try? I'm concerned Smith is persisting with Taylor who is (usually) just about ok defensively but offers nothing going forward. I'm concerned that Trezeguet shows some good touches but lacked composure when wasting two or three clear chances which could have given us two goal cushions. I'm also concerned that refs and VAR officials have given some bloody awful decisions against us, a trend that needs to change if we are to have any chance. I'm concerned that we can't seem to last more than 70 minutes without looking knackered. I'm concerned that we seem to fall apart when faced with only 10 men. I'm concerned that Smith seems dumbfounded when the opposition make formation and tactical changes, and slow to react when our players are obviously knackered. I'm concerned that there aren't any obvious relegation fodder teams in the PL this year - even Watford looked they could play a bit against Arsenal.
Apart from that everything is fine and dandy, and it is only September....
You Titty Baby. ;)
Fuck yeah always up for a bit of titty.
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I do think though that we were absolutely robbed of a point by Friend and robbed of a chance of a point by Jon Moss not giving a clear pen against Arsenal. With those two extra points we'd be mid table and things would look a whole lot different. Neither of those were the players or Smith's fault.
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You see, Risso, I'm not the one who's worried. I'm not the one who thinks the end is nigh, who thinks everyone is shit, a waste of money and out of their depth. I think we'll be fine. I think our manager is great, will do a fine job for us and will be talked about for years.
We're not having the best run, but we're not being fucked over either. We haven't got a divine right to walk the league or to beat anyone. Based on the league positions last year, we started this as the lowest ranked.
We spent a lot of money replacing half the squad or making loans permanent. Given all the changes I think we need time to gel but already there are some great signs.
Of course I'd rather we won every game, of course I'm disappointed when we don't, but let's not cry about it eh?
Nobody thinks everything is shit, including me, but the start has been extremely disappointing and lots of people are pointing out the faults. This still feels hugely different from the last time when we went down, but if the end result is the same, it'll still be a massive and costly failure. I don't think we will though, as if we're struggling into January then the owners will surely put their hands in their pockets again. The front three situation is very bad though, with nobody of Premier League quality at all (yet).
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This is a general point, not aimed at any people in particular but after reading the site the last few days ....
Can't we stop using inflammatory terms like 'knicker wetters', 'happy clappers' and whatnot, from either sides, stuff we all know pisses people off?
Yeah, some people think we are going to struggle and risk relegation, others think we are going to be fine. Some of us think Dean is doing a good job, others think he's showing signs of naivety.
Can't we just accept that we won't all agree on things and stop being so fucking confrontational about it all the time? It's like making your point and countering an argument isn't enough unless you've slipped in something you really know is going to rile someone (and when lots of us have been here for years, we all know what these things are)?
It's a football discussion website, we're not all going to agree all the time, anyone who can't handle conflicting opinions should probably waste their work time spend their leisure time elsewhere.
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I haven't seen anybody who thinks we should be "winning all 7 games"?
I know plenty that have expected us to win, given the opposition, more than one though. Moaning, entitled bastards that they are.
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"most points lost from a winning position" is a horrible stat, but I'd much rather be sat here having lost leads we'd earned, than never having looked like leading games. Clearly we have a problem in either finishing off teams, or holding on to leads - that reason might be tactical, it might be psychological, who knows - but I do know I'd rather be supporting a team that struggles to hold to leads than trying to get them in the first place.
We haven't had a lot of luck, and VAR has cost us too, and these are things that will hopefully even themselves out over the course of the season, but we clearly need to be doing better. That said, it's still so early we're literally a couple of wins from upper mid-table and I'd like to see us get at least one of those this weekend. This team feels a million miles better than the one that was relegated, and I'm still confident it will come good (even if 'good' means midtable mediocrity).
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With the players we've got and the way they go about their work, even mid-table mediocrity will be nothing if not blummin entertaining. I'll have that for now.
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This is a general point, not aimed at any people in particular but after reading the site the last few days ....
Can't we stop using inflammatory terms like 'knicker wetters', 'happy clappers' and whatnot, from either sides, stuff we all know pisses people off?
Yeah, some people think we are going to struggle and risk relegation, others think we are going to be fine. Some of us think Dean is doing a good job, others think he's showing signs of naivety.
Can't we just accept that we won't all agree on things and stop being so fucking confrontational about it all the time? It's like making your point and countering an argument isn't enough unless you've slipped in something you really know is going to rile someone (and when lots of us have been here for years, we all know what these things are)?
It's a football discussion website, we're not all going to agree all the time, anyone who can't handle conflicting opinions should probably waste their work time spend their leisure time elsewhere.
Can I still say "humbug"?
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Draw at Norwich, beat Brighton and I will feel better
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You see, Risso, I'm not the one who's worried. I'm not the one who thinks the end is nigh, who thinks everyone is shit, a waste of money and out of their depth. I think we'll be fine. I think our manager is great, will do a fine job for us and will be talked about for years.
We're not having the best run, but we're not being fucked over either. We haven't got a divine right to walk the league or to beat anyone. Based on the league positions last year, we started this as the lowest ranked.
We spent a lot of money replacing half the squad or making loans permanent. Given all the changes I think we need time to gel but already there are some great signs.
Of course I'd rather we won every game, of course I'm disappointed when we don't, but let's not cry about it eh?
I agree with everything you said here 100%
the biggest problem i have is we were having massive arguments last season because you were saying exactly the same thing about Bruce
not trying to be horrible but your track record of calling it is a bit rubbish really
I’m on your side re Smith but wasn’t re Bruce just hoping your judgement improved a bit else we’re all doomed
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You see, Risso, I'm not the one who's worried. I'm not the one who thinks the end is nigh, who thinks everyone is shit, a waste of money and out of their depth. I think we'll be fine. I think our manager is great, will do a fine job for us and will be talked about for years.
We're not having the best run, but we're not being fucked over either. We haven't got a divine right to walk the league or to beat anyone. Based on the league positions last year, we started this as the lowest ranked.
We spent a lot of money replacing half the squad or making loans permanent. Given all the changes I think we need time to gel but already there are some great signs.
Of course I'd rather we won every game, of course I'm disappointed when we don't, but let's not cry about it eh?
I agree with everything you said here 100%
the biggest problem i have is we were having massive arguments last season because you were saying exactly the same thing about Bruce
not trying to be horrible but your track record of calling it is a bit rubbish really
I’m on your side re Smith but wasn’t re Bruce just hoping your judgement improved a bit else we’re all doomed
I believe in giving people a chance.
The difference this season is that Smith's career has always had an upwards trajectory and I believe he's still improving.
Bruce was dealt a shit hand at the beginning of last season and had a lot to cope with but deserved to go in the end.
I just don't want dissenting voices taking over and for Smith not to get a proper chance.
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I think a fair few people got excited after the euphoric end to last season. That and maybe seeing premier league not being great last few seasons led to a few thinking we'd actually do a Wolves and be comfortable in top half.
Wolves stormed the Championship and won it, we went up via play-offs so anyone expecting us to perform similarly to Wolves need to manage their expectations. It's quite remarkable for any newly promoted team to have a season like that anyway.
I think some of our fans got used to us winning a lot last season and expected more of the same despite the step up in quality.
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I think a fair few people got excited after the euphoric end to last season. That and maybe seeing premier league not being great last few seasons led to a few thinking we'd actually do a Wolves and be comfortable in top half.
Wolves stormed the Championship and won it, we went up via play-offs so anyone expecting us to perform similarly to Wolves need to manage their expectations. It's quite remarkable for any newly promoted team to have a season like that anyway.
I think some of our fans got used to us winning a lot last season and expected more of the same despite the step up in quality.
we are performing similar to Wolves this season though they are just two points ahead of us
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It's been very fine margins. We've been on the end of some rank decisions and our naivety seems to have been punished disproportionately.
It wouldn't be particular unfair to argue we ought to be on 11 or 12 points.
But here we are, learning, but certainly giving cause for optimism as much as concern. Watford and Newcastle have the stretch of relegation about them while we're playing ok.
Conversion from ok to points must start to happen though. 4-6 points from the next two ought to be in our grasp. Anything from the next two thereafter would be highly unexpected.
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Not worried, plenty of goals in our wingers, midfield and forward. They will come and so will the points, we’re playing well 👍
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I haven’t looked this up but how did Eddie Howe start when Bournemouth first game up? He’s a manager who’s grown with his role and responsibilities as a PL manager. Always impressed with him and it could be that Dean is just learning his job, making mistakes, doing some good things. Just all part of the process.
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I haven’t looked this up but how did Eddie Howe start when Bournemouth first game up? He’s a manager who’s grown with his role and responsibilities as a PL manager. Always impressed with him and it could be that Dean is just learning his job, making mistakes, doing some good things. Just all part of the process.
W2 D1 L4 from the first 7. (wins both against teams with 10 men, though they were already winning both games).
The it was DLLLLDD. Including two games shipping 5.
We beat them first game after they had 59% possession, out passed us and had more shots too. Gestede scored the only goal.
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When you compare our squads this season to last, you can break down our current plight to this:
GK - IMPROVEMENT - Heaton -(*Though Steer I felt was unlucky to lose the shirt - Not a critical upgrade imo)
DF - IMPROVEMENT throughout - Better, more mobile RB and LB in Guilbert and Targett, additions of Engels and Konsa improves depth in CB positions too.
DM - IMPROVEMENT - Replacing Whelan and Jedinak with Nakamba and Douglas Luiz. Younger, bettter players.
WINGS - IMPROVEMENT - Additions of Jota and Trezeguet
FWD - WORSE - Wesley is so far not showing enough - Not enough effort, doesn't hold the ball up, and is rarely in the right position for a lone CF
I must admit, whilst I appreciate what Tammy did for us last season, I wasn't too bothered about not getting him back this season, as I didn't think he'd cut it in the Premier League (didn't set the world alight with Swansea or his cameo appearances for Chelsea). How wrong was I!
It's clear as day that our CF position is the problem. The team is generally playing well, but by not having someone that can show for the ball (and hold it up!), it's putting way too much pressure on them -especially later in games - which i think is why they're tiring so easily leading to silly mistakes.
I thought it would be risky putting all of our eggs in the Wesley basket, and so far, this has proved true. If Dean and the owners can get someone in as soon as that January window opens, I think we'll be okay - A good second half to the season in fact! If he persists with him, we're only heading in one direction imo.
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With regards to Abraham, it mustn't be overlooked that at Chelsea he's surrounded by a more accomplished group than we've assembled. If all things remained the same and we transpose him for Wes, he'd still not have a hatful because we don't create that many chances for a centre-forward. His conversion rate with us wasn't stunning anyway.
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Kind of agree. Maybe Tammy isn't the answer, but if it was a straight choice between him and Wesley at the moment, it certainly wouldn't be the latter.
Regardless of who it is in that slot, I do think our achilles heel has been that FW position. We're crying out for someone that the team can just ping the ball to (and it sticks), to give them a little breather. This league is relentless compared to where we've just come from, and I think our main issue is that they're all fooked after 60mins* due to there being no let up for them.
*On that note, you've also got to question Dean's constant stubborness to not make subs until it's too late.
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Not worried, plenty of goals in our wingers, midfield and forward. They will come and so will the points, we’re playing well 👍
Don't see plenty of goals tbh. Think McGinn is looking good for double figures and could well be our leading goalscorer this season. The rest look in 5-8 goal bracket to me, yes even Wes.
Could still be enough if we get back to keeping clean sheets.
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I think we are a pretty good side, barring some iffy play from Wesley at times (hopefully this is a learning curve).
The biggest issue is that we just haven't been able to maintain the required level of performance consistently over 90 minutes. If we can improve on that, I think we'll be fine.
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Not worried, plenty of goals in our wingers, midfield and forward. They will come and so will the points, we’re playing well 👍
Don't see plenty of goals tbh. Think McGinn is looking good for double figures and could well be our leading goalscorer this season. The rest look in 5-8 goal bracket to me, yes even Wes.
Could still be enough if we get back to keeping clean sheets.
Appreciate that this looks easier to say after today, but I did post elsewhere about sharing the goals around should Wesley not get too many.
If you say we would need to score roughly 40-45 goals (read somewhere that goals scored correlates quite closely to points gained) then hopefully something like this wouldn’t be unrealistic:
Wesley/Davis/Kodjia - 15-18 goals
El Ghazi/Trezeguet/Jota - 10-12 goals
Midfield - 10-15 goals
Defence - 3-5 goals
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Don't see plenty of goals tbh.
This comment has not aged well!!! ;) ;D ;D ;D
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I’m starting to get worried about how much Champions League tickets are going to cost.
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Don't see plenty of goals tbh.
This comment has not aged well!!! ;) ;D ;D ;D
I predicted a 2-2 draw.
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Don't see plenty of goals tbh.
This comment has not aged well!!! ;) ;D ;D ;D
Always delighted to be proved utterly wrong at times!
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I’m starting to get worried about how much Champions League tickets are going to cost.
#Levels 😁
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Slightly less.
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I’m starting to get worried about how much Champions League tickets are going to cost.
#Levels 😁
I worry about how much we will be fined by UEFA for "Not respecting the Champions League anthem".
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Don't see plenty of goals tbh.
This comment has not aged well!!! ;) ;D ;D ;D
Always delighted to be proved utterly wrong at times!
Well done good Sir for acknowledging it, me I’m just delighted to be right on occasion 😀
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Obviously still worried in a literal sense. It's a tough division, and nobody is owed anything - just ask Norwich, going from beating the best team on earth (IMO) to getting trashed by a fellow promotion side at home!
It's a crazy league, and good sides will go down as I've always said. I just feel happy to have a team to be proud of. They showed today they have quality, desire, and a willingness to not stay still but to always strive for more. So happy to be a Villan this evening.
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With Manchester United and Spurs looking likely to fill two of the three relegation places I reckon we will be fine.
;)
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Thank McGrath we won but another game we didn't do enough v 10 men, it's an itch we really need to scratch going forward.
Going into injury time I think it was one corner and one shot on target in the second half.
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I'm worried about the paltry allocation of tickets for next season's Champions League Final.
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What I think is interesting is that we're now joint 5th for goal scoring so our problems aren't going forward, despite us looking a bit toothless at times. We just need to learn to be a bit more ruthless. Generally the league starts to take shape after 9-10 games and we're bang in mid-table, pretty much where the vote on here (whichever thread it was) predicted. Today also saw our first goal from a defender, I doubt many would've predicted Targett for that particular stat.
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Worried? Nah
(https://i.ibb.co/xLbNsRN/IMG-1384-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xLbNsRN)
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It was more likely than Taylor!
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With Manchester United and Spurs looking likely to fill two of the three relegation places I reckon we will be fine.
;)
Haha! If only.
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Won as many games now as we did in the season went down...
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It was more likely than Taylor!
Well yeah but if more likely to score than Taylor is your bar then most of this forum probably come above him.
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I still think there's a strong chance of us being in the scrap come the final months of the season, so wins like today are really really important with the long-term in view. In the short term, we've got very tough run of games coming up now, so it was absolutely vital that a possible 2-3 consecutive defeats/winless games didn't become 3-4. We won't be in the relegation zone after the next round of fixtures barring a small mathematical miracle, and that's good to know.
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Yes I'n worried that the shite VAR may cost us a top six finish!!
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I still think there's a strong chance of us being in the scrap come the final months of the season, so wins like today are really really important with the long-term in view. In the short term, we've got very tough run of games coming up now, so it was absolutely vital that a possible 2-3 consecutive defeats/winless games didn't become 3-4. We won't be in the relegation zone after the next round of fixtures barring a small mathematical miracle, and that's good to know.
I think there will be half the division still in the scrap come the last few games. A lot of teams you would see in it look decent and nobody looks rank bad.
But I believe we will improve, and we have Grealish who is as good if not better than anyone outside the top two, and McGinn.
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One thing I like about us under Dean Smith is that we never give up.
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Think we could still do with getting another striker in during the January window.
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Think we could still do with getting another striker in during the January window.
I think Kodjia could play a part still but otherwise, I agree.
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If we can hold a mid table position by the time we have played Chelsea away we will be comfortable. However if, as it is likely, we are 16th or lower then we will be involved in the relegation scrap all season.
36 points will be enough and we need 25 from 29 games. Surely that's do able?
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Win the next 2 league games, and the title is as good as ours. Guilbert with a back heel to Grealish who dummies a pass before playing it perfectly through to McGinn bursting through from midfield to slot it past the keeper and wrap up the game in front of a rammed Holte as we show Liverpool who truly are the best now.
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I still think there's a strong chance of us being in the scrap come the final months of the season, so wins like today are really really important with the long-term in view. In the short term, we've got very tough run of games coming up now, so it was absolutely vital that a possible 2-3 consecutive defeats/winless games didn't become 3-4. We won't be in the relegation zone after the next round of fixtures barring a small mathematical miracle, and that's good to know.
I think there will be half the division still in the scrap come the last few games. A lot of teams you would see in it look decent and nobody looks rank bad.
But I believe we will improve, and we have Grealish who is as good if not better than anyone outside the top two, and McGinn.
Agree with this. With every team below Liverpool looking fallible and all the bottom teams being capable of good performances/games I think it could be over of those where the league is tight all the way down and a high total is needed to be out of the shit.
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There's still teams with less than a point per game though so 35-36 will probably be about the level, which isn't all that unusual, I suspect a few teams will find some consistency through the middle of the season and
going into the last 7-8 it will be 1-2 that look fucked and 4-5 others in the battle, so long as we don't look like we're getting drawn into that then it'll have been a good season.
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No 😎🍺👍😄
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I’m with robbo.
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There's still teams with less than a point per game though so 35-36 will probably be about the level, which isn't all that unusual, I suspect a few teams will find some consistency through the middle of the season and
going into the last 7-8 it will be 1-2 that look fucked and 4-5 others in the battle, so long as we don't look like we're getting drawn into that then it'll have been a good season.
Think it will be higher.
The league table from 9 games in last year had a bottom 4 of:
Cardiff 5 points
Fulham 5 points
Huddersfield 3 points
Newcastle 2 points
Brighton in 12th actually had 11 points so that's similar.
Much bigger gap to bottom 4 than now and also Fulham and Huddersfield hardly won a game for months so those two were both cut adrift quickly.
Don't see the same happening this season, can see Watford at some stage of the season winning 3/4 and getting out of bottom 3 so we still have plenty of work to do. Last two weeks have shown we are capable of winning the games we really need to so that's very promising so the odd shock result now would help.
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Apart from Palace away that was our worst performance of the season yesterday and we still won
May not pull up any trees this season but we will be safe
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On the plus side, I think Norwich are fairly determined to get relegated.
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I think we will be ok but the performance yesterday hopefully reminds people that come out with, we are much better than ............
Because we are really not much better than any one in this division.
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We're better than the teams below us.
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Anyway, a little less now.
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I don’t think we’ve been appreciably better or worse than any of our opponents so far. Probably didn’t deserve a win yesterday, but that’s more than offset by games where we were unlucky one way or another and didn’t get the points we deserved.
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Played 6 of 10 teams above us, drawn 2 lost 4. Played 3 won 3 9f 9 teams below us. Table would suggest we're in about the right position
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Seems a very strange league this year. There are the top two and then everyone else. That could possibly result in a higher than normal points mark to stay up. Norwich hardly spent any money so must have been planning for a relegation battle. A number of other teams could get drawn into it. Next 4 games going to be huge for our chances.
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Seems a very strange league this year. There are the top two and then everyone else. That could possibly result in a higher than normal points mark to stay up. Norwich hardly spent any money so must have been planning for a relegation battle. A number of other teams could get drawn into it. Next 4 games going to be huge for our chances.
Behave. The next three mean diddly squat for our chances, unless you're talking about us winning the league!
Newcastle at home is one we really need 3 points from though.
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Seems a very strange league this year. There are the top two and then everyone else. That could possibly result in a higher than normal points mark to stay up. Norwich hardly spent any money so must have been planning for a relegation battle. A number of other teams could get drawn into it. Next 4 games going to be huge for our chances.
Behave. The next three mean diddly squat for our chances, unless you're talking about us winning the league!
Newcastle at home is one we really need 3 points from though.
And we'd better fucking get them otherwise the 'mad few' will be mad as hell!
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4 points is achievable from Wolves-Newcastle.
Other two is probably just about keeping the GD in healthy state although Liverpool haven't exactly blown teams away outside of Anfield this season, poor today and only won by one goal at Sheffield United and Southampton.
Important we don't gift them a goal early on and keep it 0-0 as long as possible.
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May as well dust this one off. Three straight defeats and today the worst of all of them. We looked dreadful for 95% of the game. And Dean Smith just has no idea how to set up when Jack isn't in the game. As it stands we are going to be very lucky if we can find 3 teams worse than us. Dean Smith needs to figure this out or he might be looking for a new job. The owners won't want their investment playing Championship football again next season.
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I think we are going down.
It's all well and good putting together patches of decent play in the big games but ultimately futile if you come away with zero points.
Where are the matches where we can really be expected to take three points?
The full strength side is barely good enough and even the slightest exposure to injuries and we look like a lower half championship side.
I am sure we will have plenty of games where we will be able to say we played well, but in too many of those games we will fail to take points.
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We'll stay up no problem.
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No
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To think the 140m or whatever it was we spent got us to become a bottom six side. And we will drop even lower without another 50m being spent in January. Our forward options are fucking mince.
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We've got half the team out, and we've narrowly lost to a team that qualified for Europe and another that won the European Cup. I'm not going to reach for the razor blades just yet. Get Grealish fit and bring on Newcastle.
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I think we are going down.
It's all well and good putting together patches of decent play in the big games but ultimately futile if you come away with zero points.
Where are the matches where we can really be expected to take three points?
The full strength side is barely good enough and even the slightest exposure to injuries and we look like a lower half championship side.
I am sure we will have plenty of games where we will be able to say we played well, but in too many of those games we will fail to take points.
Two of the teams we beat last month?
We play Norwich, Southampton and Watford over 7 days in December. I think it's fair to say with Liverpool cup game also thrown into the mix that is a hugely critical part of the season and will set the tone for how big the task is from January onwards.
We'll stay up but we need to keep our big players fit. Newcastle is winnable game but that will be a struggle if likes of Heaton and Grealish are out as they simply gives the whole team more confidence and quality out there.
Today to me showed the mistake in not doing more on August 31s. We lack quality in the final third.
Let's remember we barely won a game for three months without Grealish in the championship so not sure why people are expecting us to go to established prem teams away from home and get at least a point.
I fully expected us to lose when I saw the team at 1pm. Good at least for our GD we somehow only lost by one goal.
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While I have a hard time seeing any squad currently in the bottom three accumulating more points than us, I AM NOT HAPPY with the product right now.
Dean is doing a poor job, there's no way around that fact. We can't play into our lone striker, our wingers are terrible and we throw away points.
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Wesley seems to have two settings - best player on the pitch or absent.
Not buying another striker was a mistake.
I don't think we'll be experiencing a comedy relegation like the last time we went down, I think we'll be one of those sides people think try to play good stuff but ultimately fail.
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Newcastle will nick a 1-0 off us, nailed on.
I think the team is too lightweight tbh.
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No. We’ve had one transfer window where we rebuilt the squad. It was always going to be a tough first year back.
Some smart additions in Jan and I think we will be fine.
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Newcastle won't be a pushover at all. They've won 2 straight, will be very confident. If Jack is back I can see us getting something from it, and that something needs to be a win. But if not then I just don't see how we can win.
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No, not at all.
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I think we are going down.
It's all well and good putting together patches of decent play in the big games but ultimately futile if you come away with zero points.
Where are the matches where we can really be expected to take three points?
The full strength side is barely good enough and even the slightest exposure to injuries and we look like a lower half championship side.
I am sure we will have plenty of games where we will be able to say we played well, but in too many of those games we will fail to take points.
Two of the teams we beat last month?
We play Norwich, Southampton and Watford over 7 days in December. I think it's fair to say with Liverpool cup game also thrown into the mix that is a hugely critical part of the season and will set the tone for how big the task is from January onwards.
We'll stay up but we need to keep our big players fit. Newcastle is winnable game but that will be a struggle if likes of Heaton and Grealish are out as they simply gives the whole team more confidence and quality out there.
Today to me showed the mistake in not doing more on August 31s. We lack quality in the final third.
Let's remember we barely won a game for three months without Grealish in the championship so not sure why people are expecting us to go to established prem teams away from home and get at least a point.
I fully expected us to lose when I saw the team at 1pm. Good at least for our GD we somehow only lost by one goal.
The point about Grealish - that's exactly it. He gets injured and we can't be expecting to get anything against a team barely above us in the league.
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Grealish missing is a nightmare for us, if affects the whole team.
On the flipside, when he comes back it'll give the whole team a boost and we will batter someone.
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No. We’ve had one transfer window where we rebuilt the squad. It was always going to be a tough first year back.
Some smart additions in Jan and I think we will be fine.
Same for me. I said in August 14th place and 42 points.
Think Norwich and Southampton will start getting cut adrift in next few weeks, the danger is Watford could go on a run, they have some streaky players.
Again I get the feeling some were getting carried away after the Norwich and Brighton wins and thinking top half was a certainty. Reality is Norwich are the worst team in this league and Brighton played with 10 men for 50 minutes and we only just beat them.
Since then we've lost three games in which I only really expected a point at best (and we should've got that point unexpectedly last week) And we played two of those games without our best player.
There are reasons if you look beyond the reactionary stuff. I was more worried in August when we weren't winning and didn't really look like scoring much.
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The truth is while Jack is an outstanding player we only have one player anywhere near that quality. In the PL that's just not enough.
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I'm getting a bit fed up of Smith's lack of flexibility regarding formation. Try something else.
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The truth is while Jack is an outstanding player we only have one player anywhere near that quality. In the PL that's just not enough.
Fair to a point. I think some of the recruitment, Nakamba, Engels, Guilbert to name 3 have the potential to be decent premiership players.
We’re not getting battered (yet!) by anyone which if I compare to Watford, Norwich and Southampton is a big plus.
I think a team could stay up this year on 34.
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Our next five fixtures...outside of Newcastle who are actually in decent form...fuck me. Sheff Utd at their place will be rock hard. We might only get 4 points from the next 15
NEWCASTLE H
MAN U A
CHELSEA A
LEICESTER H
SHEFF UTD A
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The truth is while Jack is an outstanding player we only have one player anywhere near that quality. In the PL that's just not enough.
That's an issue when you just buy young and up coming players from smaller leagues. No problem with that policy but we also need some experienced players.
We need to do this in January, step up the transfer quality a little.
People wonder why Wolves are again top half and pretty much through to europa league knock outs. Moutinho in midfield has about 80 caps for Portugal. Neves was starting in the CL at 19 years old. Jimenez, 22 goals in 70 games for Mexico.
That's the sort of proven quality we need in next two transfer windows if we are serious about being top half in this league this time next year.
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This is exactly what I feared about getting back into the PL, particularly with a manager ,who I love, but with no relevant experience.
We’re doing a full circle, with or without Grealish.
It’s going to be a long hard winter and January signings are essential.
Obviously too early to say we’re going down but it’s a distinct possibility as things stand.
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I can't see many points there. The plus side is we won't be suffering the same sort of January transfer window we had in 2016.
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All about January now. I’ll be extremely surprised if we’re not in the bottom 3 at Christmas and if we don’t spend big money, at least, on a striker and one wide player, we may as well admit we’re down.
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The Man City/Liverpool double-header always had the potential to destabilise us a little. We have to regroup now and not panic or lose our heads.
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Our next five fixtures...outside of Newcastle who are actually in decent form...fuck me. Sheff Utd at their place will be rock hard. We might only get 4 points from the next 15
NEWCASTLE H
MAN U A
CHELSEA A
LEICESTER H
SHEFF UTD A
The 5-6 fixtures after that will decide our season I think.
Norwich (h)
Southampton (h)
Watford (a)
Burnley (a)
Man. City (h) (o.k let's ignore that one).
Brighton (a)
Watford (h)
Make or break period certainly. We need to get our key players fit and ready to win 2-3 of those and then things will look much better.
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Of course there's a chance we're going down, the same applies to at least half the division. We shouldn't even be in the top flight considering where we were 9 months ago. The changes we've undergone meant it was going to be a struggle at times, and is underlined by 9 months ago we were about to lose 2-0 at home to Albion to kill off any hopes of promotion. I'd bet that hardly any of us seriously believed we had a chance after that game. 2 players started today that started that Albion game, that's how much we've had to change things in such a short time.
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We won't go down. Have people forgotten just how shit Norwich, Watford and Newcastle are?!
And that's before we get to 9-0 Southampton, Sheff United who will drop off sooner or later and a host of other extremely average bottom half clubs.
We're currently missing our best player, our goalie and one of our centre halves. To compound matters, the guy we brought in as back up to our best player is also injured. And in our last three games we've played the two best teams in the league and possibly Europe.
It's really not that bad.
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No. We’ve only played 12 games so far with a new squad. There will be 3 worse teams than us.
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We won't go down. Have people forgotten just how shit Norwich, Watford and Newcastle are?!
And that's before we get to 9-0 Southampton, Sheff United who will drop off sooner or later and a host of other extremely average bottom half clubs.
We're currently missing our best player, our goalie and one of our centre halves. To compound matters, the guy we brought in as back up to our best player is also injured. And in our last three games we've played the two best teams in the league and possibly Europe.
It's really not that bad.
Newcastle have just won their last 2 games and Watford are better than their position suggests. They won't go down.
We need to worry about ourselves first and foremost and there are concrete things to worry about.
11 points from 12 games with a really tough run of games after Newcastle is something to worry about.
We cannot afford to get into a death spiral.
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Newcastle are looking o.k atm, that's a very dangerous game for us particularly if we don't have our full 11 out. They have rapid players on the counter attack.
Get the feeling Watford are going on a run, they have some winnable games over next five fixtures.
Southampton and Norwich do look relegation material though. That said Southampton could well change their manager, they've done that previous two seasons and stayed up just.
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I think it depends on what players are bought in January and if Dean can change the formation.
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Losing games from winning positions.
Confidence beginning to ebb.
We don’t have a striker for this level and unless that changes we are in deep shit.
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Wesley seems to have two settings - best player on the pitch or absent.
Not buying another striker was a mistake.
I don't think we'll be experiencing a comedy relegation like the last time we went down, I think we'll be one of those sides people think try to play good stuff but ultimately fail.
Genuine question but when has Wesley been the best player on the pitch?
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Wesley seems to have two settings - best player on the pitch or absent.
Not buying another striker was a mistake.
I don't think we'll be experiencing a comedy relegation like the last time we went down, I think we'll be one of those sides people think try to play good stuff but ultimately fail.
Genuine question but when has Wesley been the best player on the pitch?
Everton
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I’m concerned after today
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Newcastle is really huge in the context of our season.
Win that and we could pick up the odd surprise draw in the next four fixtues. Don't and we could very well not win until December 21st so would more than likely be in bottom 3 by then.
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It's going how I expected so far, a few highs and lots of disappointments.
I'm positive there will be three teams below us, at least.
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I don’t think we will go down. Can understand people that are worried though.
We are just so naive and make too many poor decisions - particularly in both boxes. Both the players and the coaching staff that is. Just today, Luiz should be taking the yellow for bring Adama down for the second goal and the system Smith has us playing was just so open it was asking for trouble, especially in the first half.
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Im genuinly not worried, I've seen more than eno7gh to suggest we will stay up comfortably.
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Southampton and Norwich are goners for me, so we just need to beat 1 more team, but the lack of goals and threat is a big worry for me - I'd expect us to buy in Jan.
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Southampton and Norwich are goners for me, so we just need to beat 1 more team, but the lack of goals and threat is a big worry for me - I'd expect us to buy in Jan.
Lack of goals? Weren't we the highest scorers just a few weeks back?
We just don't have the proven forward quality to trouble the best defences in the league. Wolves have a very good defensive structure, it's only twice this season they've conceded more than one goal in a league game.
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Looking at the next five, yes. I'm starting to. If we don't get three points against Newcastle, things could start getting really tough.
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Said at the start of the season we'd survive but only barely, finishing 16th or 17th. Not overly worried as I haven't seen anything to change that for better or worse.
That said I think even finishing 17th requires 1 or 2 quality signings in January. A striker is a must. I expect the owners, Suso and Smith will all be on the same page there.
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Yeh, lets just buy a striker in January, easy.
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Yeh, lets just buy a striker in January, easy.
Is football supposed to be easy? I must have missed the memo.
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Not too worried. It was always going to be tough coming up through the playoffs and having to replace so many in the summer. Overall we've played well so far this season, things like the goal against Palace being disallowed and conceding late goals against the big boys make it seem worse than it really is.
Still have full confidence in Smith, we're in a much better position now than when he took over. Bit more quality in January and beating the teams around us (especially at home) will see us home. It's a long term project, we have a lot of potential and a good coach, keep the faith.
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7 defeats out of 12 isn't good. Three teams worse than us at the moment so could be worse. My concern is teams immediately above us are West Ham, Tottenham and Everton and realistically they're not going to be down there come season's end. Likes of Newcastle, Brighton, Sheff U have stolen a march on us. Long way to go and overall I'm pretty confident we'll be fine but would be nice to be more comfortable.
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No.
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Yeh, lets just buy a striker in January, easy.
Didn't we buy Darren Bent, one of the highest scorers in Premier League history, in January?
Edit: And pick up Robbie Keane on loan?
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7 defeats out of 12 isn't good. Three teams worse than us at the moment so could be worse. My concern is teams immediately above us are West Ham, Tottenham and Everton and realistically they're not going to be down there come season's end. Likes of Newcastle, Brighton, Sheff U have stolen a march on us. Long way to go and overall I'm pretty confident we'll be fine but would be nice to be more comfortable.
Dropped points against 10 man Arsenal and West Ham have proved costly. They are two very average sides. Few extra points now would have us comfortable. It's worrying enough to be honest, particularly if Grealish cant shake off his current injury quickly. Summer signings seems a very mixed bag and we continue to concede late goals.
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Yeh, lets just buy a striker in January, easy.
Didn't we buy Darren Bent, one of the highest scorers in Premier League history, in January?
Exactly
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7 defeats out of 12 isn't good. Three teams worse than us at the moment so could be worse. My concern is teams immediately above us are West Ham, Tottenham and Everton and realistically they're not going to be down there come season's end. Likes of Newcastle, Brighton, Sheff U have stolen a march on us. Long way to go and overall I'm pretty confident we'll be fine but would be nice to be more comfortable.
Dropped points against 10 man Arsenal and West Ham have proved costly. They are two very average sides. Few extra points now would have us comfortable. It's worrying enough to be honest, particularly if Grealish cant shake off his current injury quickly. Summer signings seems a very mixed bag and we continue to concede late goals.
Add in Burnley. Niggly team to play against but we were leading twice against them. Bournemouth was also a disappointment given it was our first home game back, nightmare first 10 minutes.
That period we should've got more points on the board given the match situations and way this league is it hurts you when you then get a run of fixtures against better teams and start losing.
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7 defeats out of 12 isn't good. Three teams worse than us at the moment so could be worse. My concern is teams immediately above us are West Ham, Tottenham and Everton and realistically they're not going to be down there come season's end. Likes of Newcastle, Brighton, Sheff U have stolen a march on us. Long way to go and overall I'm pretty confident we'll be fine but would be nice to be more comfortable.
Dropped points against 10 man Arsenal and West Ham have proved costly. They are two very average sides. Few extra points now would have us comfortable. It's worrying enough to be honest, particularly if Grealish cant shake off his current injury quickly. Summer signings seems a very mixed bag and we continue to concede late goals.
Add in Burnley. Niggly team to play against but we were leading twice against them. Bournemouth was also a disappointment given it was our first home game back, nightmare first 10 minutes.
That period we should've got more points on the board given the match situations and way this league is it hurts you when you then get a run of fixtures against better teams and start losing.
You have to take the opportunity in this league and we have thrown points away now we face difficult games and injuries and lack of form is beginning to tell.
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I would say though we were unlucky after those back to back wins and being 11th we got Man. City and Liverpool straight after. It would be like Newcastle in good form having those two games up next rather than us and I think Southampton at home.
Add in how we messed up the end of the Liverpool game and it's a real momentum killer. Let's hope we come out firing v Newcastle to try to get back on track.
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The next few games now look a bit daunting - not panicking yet but my earlier thoughts of how teams promoted through the play off struggle are resurfacing
The gamble on Wesley doesn't seem to be returning anything
Newcastle ain't gonna be easy - I'm worried that SJM is starting to look jaded
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We need to never hit the lows of the first half again.
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We need to never hit the lows of the first half again.
Very true. I think the first half today, Palace and possibly the first twenty minutes against Bournemouth have been the only times where I would say that our performances have been poor though.
The rest of the time I think we have been fairly decent performance wise, but the problem for me is that, while I reckon we would have a good chance of beating 14/15 teams when we are good, we just look vulnerable and unable to dig out a result even when our performance levels are ok.
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We are too easy to beat and too easy to score against. If the team doesn't toughen up and make things harder for the opposition then we are going down. We need more of a never say die attitude. Expansive football is great and I'm not advocating going Bruceball but we can't be so open so often. Teams more often than not are not earning their shots against us. Simply too comfortable to play against and it isn't helped either by the lack of closing down by any of our ''front 3''. The ball comes back too often and too quickly against us.
Must do better, a lot better.
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Surely our GD would be much worse if we were easy to beat, I'm talking Southampton with -18 and Norwich with -17.
Even after the last three defeats we're still only on -3. Everyone bar Spurs above us to Brighton have worse GD than we do.
As negative as all that sounds in the final few weeks that will act as an extra point so it could prove very crucial come May.
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Any names other than Morelos?
TBH I'd be happy with him, concerns obviously about his temprement but he looks a real warrior from the front.
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Talk Chelsea will let Giroud go for 5m. Don't know if he'd want to come up here but that would be a move that would be ambitious and also give us what we need upfront, guy who's vastly experienced and can score and hold it up.
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Surely our GD would be much worse if we were easy to beat, I'm talking Southampton with -18 and Norwich with -17.
Even after the last three defeats we're still only on -3. Everyone bar Spurs above us to Brighton have worse GD than we do.
As negative as all that sounds in the final few weeks that will act as an extra point so it could prove very crucial come May.
Most of our goal difference is the Norwich game. Take that away and we have the 4th worst goal difference, we are currently the 4th worst side in the division and we've lost 7 out of 12 games. We are easy to score against and too easy to beat. We need a bit more metal. We've also given up the most shots and most chances in the division this season. It's not time to throw the baby out with the bath water but something isn't quite right and open teams that concede a lot tend to get relegated. We need to tinker a little, the current system is ok at times and at others isn't making it hard enough for the opposition.
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I think the fact that only the top four teams have won over a third of their games shows the evenness/stodginess of the rest of the league.
I think are biggest problem so far is that we have had to be pretty much bang on it to win games. Yes, we have been unlucky with some decisions, but are too naive and haven’t really shown that we can dig out a result when we are not performing at a high level enough (West Ham/Burnley/Arsenal/Liverpool etc.)
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I'd go even further, instead of just taking away 1 win, if we take away all of the goals we've scored then we're hammered on a regular basis.
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I'll be surprised if we're not in the bottom 3 after the run of games up until Christmas after Newcastle. 3 points against SB's boys is an absolute must.
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I’m certainly worried as this is a relegation battle no doubt. I’ve been disappointed with the fact that we’re so inflexible on formation and we’ve not learnt at all from our mistakes. It’s gonna be a long hard season.
Not being able to change things up top is costing us. We never seem to have a plan B.
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Enjoy it.
Worried? I was after the Fulham playoff final.
I'm not now.
I think we have enough quality to survive, but more importantly the players have the right character.
As for the two week international break - I'm starting to miss the non stop championship games.
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I'd rather we didn't get relegated however!
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The International break has actually fallen well for us. A chance to get key players fit for what is a massive game against Newcastle.
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Enjoy it.
Worried? I was after the Fulham playoff final.
I'm not now.
I think we have enough quality to survive, but more importantly the players have the right character.
As for the two week international break - I'm starting to miss the non stop championship games.
The Championship stops for internationals, too. I don't mind a bit of time off, tbh. I'm not even going to depress myself by watching sodding Scotland.
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Enjoy it.
Worried? I was after the Fulham playoff final.
I'm not now.
I think we have enough quality to survive, but more importantly the players have the right character.
As for the two week international break - I'm starting to miss the non stop championship games.
This, we have enough to survive this season. Then I have no doubt we will continue to build again.
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Enjoy it.
Worried? I was after the Fulham playoff final.
I'm not now.
I think we have enough quality to survive, but more importantly the players have the right character.
As for the two week international break - I'm starting to miss the non stop championship games.
This, we have enough to survive this season. Then I have no doubt we will continue to build again.
I really hope you are right. I must admit to being a bit worried
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I disagree, I do not think we have enough to survive this season.
A Centre forward is an absolute must if we are to survive.
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I'd like one, but not sure it's an "absolute must" bearing in mind we are currently outside the relegation zone and only six clubs have scored more goals than us. Last year Southampton didn't have a single player who scored more than seven and stayed up relatively comfortably.
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We'll be fine. Eventually.
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Not just a centre forward though, the midfield is lacking Luiz hasn't impressed me although Marvellous has done well and we really need cover for Jack I honestly believe if he had played today we may have got the points that's why we need cover for him don't ask me who.
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I am also concerned that we seem stuck with a rigid 4 3 3 system that is often not working for us.
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Enjoy it.
Worried? I was after the Fulham playoff final.
I'm not now.
I think we have enough quality to survive, but more importantly the players have the right character.
As for the two week international break - I'm starting to miss the non stop championship games.
This, we have enough to survive this season. Then I have no doubt we will continue to build again.
I really hope you are right. I must admit to being a bit worried
Last 3 results have put pressure on us to beat Newcastle, but I believe in the long run our philosophy will see us survive comfortably.
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We're in the middle of a tough run of fixtures. If we don't win against Newcastle we'll probably be in the relegation zone in 3 games time. I wouldn't be panicing though as it gets easier after that.
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The International break has actually fallen well for us. A chance to get key players fit for what is a massive game against Newcastle.
I agree, we need them all out there. If Grealish was only 50/50, Engels only got a knock and Heaton has a calf strain they should all be ready for Newcastle in 15 days.
What today has shown is we won't be beating any reasonably good premier league team if we have a mini injury crisis. That needs to be improved in January otherwise more points will slip by in second half of the season.
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For once, playing on the Monday night gives us a boost as we won't be in the bottom three and can concentrate on getting players fit.
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Those burned points early in the season was always going to come back to haunt us. Spurs, Bournemouth, Arsenal, West Ham, Burnley, Liverpool were all games where we were the architects of our own downfall. Losing leads/points late or just not taking advantage of playing 10 men. Should taken at least 8 points from those games - instead we took 2.
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I'm worried.
But not at all about football and our place in this league.
Today we were without our first choice keeper, and then lost the second choice keeper to injury. We lost our first choice centre half before the game and our first choice left back during it.
We were without our best player, and captain, and his direct replacement.
We've just lost three in the bounce to three teams who between them have squads worth a fuck load more than ours (at least one of which probably has a player worth almost as much as our whole squad cost), who qualified for Europe, 2 in Champions League including the reigning champions, who will comfortably finish top two again.
We lost by a 1 goal margin in 2 games and in the other the team that beat us scored the average number of goals they've scored this season.
My pants are dry.
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And yes, we were shit today.
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I am a little worried, I think with Dean Smith being ‘one of our own’ there brings some blindness, the 433 hasn’t worked, it didn’t really last season until greaish was fit & it papered over the cracks & it’s not working now at all, the wingers are championship standard, it leaves us open & the midfield lightweight & Wes isolated, all these problems we’ve been saying since last year! I don’t think Smith is learning, I don’t think we have played that well apart from about 2 games, yes, he needs time, from the Newcastle game till Xmas will be a crucial period for Dean smith.
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Not at all, we’ve played a few of the best teams in this league over the last few weeks. We held our own against 2 of them the a good part and we just failed to turn up yesterday, which happens once and a while. It was a bad day at the office.
We knew it would be tough, even tougher when injuries kick in, but other than yesterday there is nothing to suggest in my view we’ll be relegated.
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There is zero creativity without Grealish and he is seemingly the only one who can keep the ball as we gave it away everytime we had it yesterday. Our attacking options worry me though, I said at the start of the season I couldn't believe we spent so much money but left ourselves so short up front. If we don't sign a striker in January we'll go down.
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I am a little worried, I think with Dean Smith being ‘one of our own’ there brings some blindness, the 433 hasn’t worked, it didn’t really last season until greaish was fit & it papered over the cracks & it’s not working now at all, the wingers are championship standard, it leaves us open & the midfield lightweight & Wes isolated, all these problems we’ve been saying since last year! I don’t think Smith is learning, I don’t think we have played that well apart from about 2 games, yes, he needs time, from the Newcastle game till Xmas will be a crucial period for Dean smith.
Dean Smith is poor at making tactical changes during a game. Before Targett's injury we were being utterly annihilated throughout the pitch. The back four simply had to push further up the pitch, this was corrected at half time but at that stage Wolves should have been home and hosed.
It's all well and good giving good copy in post match interviews but managers earn their crust during the 90mins. Subs remain poor, Lansbury for Nakamba was another strange one.
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I am a little worried, I think with Dean Smith being ‘one of our own’ there brings some blindness, the 433 hasn’t worked, it didn’t really last season until greaish was fit & it papered over the cracks & it’s not working now at all, the wingers are championship standard, it leaves us open & the midfield lightweight & Wes isolated, all these problems we’ve been saying since last year! I don’t think Smith is learning, I don’t think we have played that well apart from about 2 games, yes, he needs time, from the Newcastle game till Xmas will be a crucial period for Dean smith.
Yes. I’ve had huge doubts about Smith since last year and promotion didn’t change that. Grealish came back and pulled us up, before that came some of the worst football I’d ever seen from a Villa side. That 14 game run before Derby when Grealish came back told us more about Smiths capabilities than what came after. He needed to find a way of doing something different during that run and didn’t.
The never changing formation, no matter who you are playing and who you have available didn’t work between December and March, so it certainly wasn’t going to work in the Premier League. Other than Rotherham away when we had no choice because of Mings being sent off, I can’t remember a single minute of a single game under Smith where we have played anything other than 4-3-3. He’s great at getting us a lead, but there’s not much point in that if you don’t change anything once the opposition make a change. I’ve never had such dread as I have under Smith when the opposition make a substitution. I can’t think of any other manager that has never tried a different formation. His game management is very poor. A prime example being leaving Grealish on against Man City when the game was gone. I said to my uncle ‘why is he leaving Grealish on to get injured or sent off?’. Sure enough one of those inevitably happened.
People say Smith will learn. There’s no evidence of it, just like there wasn’t between Leeds at home and Stoke away last season. You can only learn if you are willing to change things, and I don’t count playing Grealish on the left as a real change. Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool are all games that we might have won had Smith parked the bus or at least tried doing something different with 20 mins to go. Any substitutions are always like for like keeping the 4-3-3 which just won’t work at this level. It didn’t work at Wigan away last season either when he made that triple substitution, so no, he doesn’t learn. People say play 4-2-3-1 which I agree with but under Smith we know that isn’t going to happen.
We’ve beaten a dreadful Everton side on that Friday, a dreadful Norwich side and got extremely lucky against a Brighton side that were running rings around us until Mooy got sent off. If Smith stays I think we are going down. At the moment we are in danger of wasting a great opportunity
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Our midfield is not good enough to play 4-3-3. Yesterday he should have played 4-2-3-1, or 4-1-4-1, offer some protection, Dean in my humble opinion is to rigid to one system, without Jack we often look poor
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Our midfield is not good enough to play 4-3-3. Yesterday he should have played 4-2-3-1, or 4-1-4-1, offer some protection, Dean in my humble opinion is to rigid to one system, without Jack we often look poor
Looks to me as if we were playing 4231 with Luiz and Nakamba sitting?
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My worry is the lack of fight and intensity, there is simply no excuse for that. Perhaps what happened in the last few minutes against Liverpool has dented confidence in the players?
However, a less talented and expensive squad at Sheffield United seem to stand up to the pressure and look like they'll survive in May.
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However, a less talented and expensive squad at Sheffield United seem to stand up to the pressure and look like they'll survive in May.
Much like Wolves yesterday, Sheffield United have a very good manager who has had pretty much the same group of players for 2-3 seasons and coach them very well to play the way that he wants them to.
Dean has only had 12 games with the majority of players that played yesterday. I’ve got faith that he will work it out as you can see for at least periods of pretty much all our games that when we are good we are a match for most teams. We do need to more more difficult to play against though when we are not at the top of our game. Think that is Smith’s biggest test at the moment.
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Our midfield is not good enough to play 4-3-3. Yesterday he should have played 4-2-3-1, or 4-1-4-1, offer some protection, Dean in my humble opinion is to rigid to one system, without Jack we often look poor
Looks to me as if we were playing 4231 with Luiz and Nakamba sitting?
I think it’s 4 3 3 with SJM roaming a bit from the right.
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I'm not questioning Smith and even if we go down he should stay, but his in game management hasn't been great this season. His subs are strange and poor most of the time and he doesn't seem to react very quickly to what's happening on the pitch. Yesterday in the first half you could see very early on that something wasn't working and we couldn't keep the ball but we didn't change anything and just plodded on until half time.
Then we had one sub left and he brings Lansbury on who didn't touch the ball. When you need a goal why would you not bring Kodjia on who is frustrating but can create something out of nothing at times or Hourihane who would have been a threat with any set piece around the box late on.
I also don't think we practice set pieces in training because ours are dreadful when Hourihane doesn't play. So many short corners or piss poor balls into the box.
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Our midfield is not good enough to play 4-3-3. Yesterday he should have played 4-2-3-1, or 4-1-4-1, offer some protection, Dean in my humble opinion is to rigid to one system, without Jack we often look poor
Looks to me as if we were playing 4231 with Luiz and Nakamba sitting?
From the Steve Bull stand it looked 4-3-3, maybe I’m wrong, then again at times I didn’t really know what I was looking at!!
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I am a little worried, I think with Dean Smith being ‘one of our own’ there brings some blindness, the 433 hasn’t worked, it didn’t really last season until greaish was fit & it papered over the cracks & it’s not working now at all, the wingers are championship standard, it leaves us open & the midfield lightweight & Wes isolated, all these problems we’ve been saying since last year! I don’t think Smith is learning, I don’t think we have played that well apart from about 2 games, yes, he needs time, from the Newcastle game till Xmas will be a crucial period for Dean smith.
Yes. I’ve had huge doubts about Smith since last year and promotion didn’t change that. Grealish came back and pulled us up, before that came some of the worst football I’d ever seen from a Villa side. That 14 game run before Derby when Grealish came back told us more about Smiths capabilities than what came after. He needed to find a way of doing something different during that run and didn’t.
The never changing formation, no matter who you are playing and who you have available didn’t work between December and March, so it certainly wasn’t going to work in the Premier League. Other than Rotherham away when we had no choice because of Mings being sent off, I can’t remember a single minute of a single game under Smith where we have played anything other than 4-3-3. He’s great at getting us a lead, but there’s not much point in that if you don’t change anything once the opposition make a change. I’ve never had such dread as I have under Smith when the opposition make a substitution. I can’t think of any other manager that has never tried a different formation. His game management is very poor. A prime example being leaving Grealish on against Man City when the game was gone. I said to my uncle ‘why is he leaving Grealish on to get injured or sent off?’. Sure enough one of those inevitably happened.
People say Smith will learn. There’s no evidence of it, just like there wasn’t between Leeds at home and Stoke away last season. You can only learn if you are willing to change things, and I don’t count playing Grealish on the left as a real change. Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool are all games that we might have won had Smith parked the bus with 20 mins to go. Any substitutions are always like for like keeping the 4-3-3 which just won’t work at this level. It didn’t work at Wigan away last season either when he made that triple substitution, so no, he doesn’t learn. People say play 4-2-3-1 which I agree with but under Smith we know that isn’t going to happen.
We’ve beaten a dreadful Everton side on that Friday, a dreadful Norwich side and got extremely lucky against a Brighton side that were running rings around us until Mooy got sent off. If Smith stays I think we are going down. At the moment we are in danger of wasting a great opportunity
The frightening thing about this post is that it is well argued, largely correct and worryingly convincing.
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When we were circling the plug for a few seasons prior to our relegation I always looked at the goal difference of the other sides around the bottom of the league compared to us and almost invariably those with the smaller gap were the ones that stayed up. This season the least worst are still 12 goals worse than us. Until that changes I remain confident that we’ll be ok.
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I am a little worried, I think with Dean Smith being ‘one of our own’ there brings some blindness, the 433 hasn’t worked, it didn’t really last season until greaish was fit & it papered over the cracks & it’s not working now at all, the wingers are championship standard, it leaves us open & the midfield lightweight & Wes isolated, all these problems we’ve been saying since last year! I don’t think Smith is learning, I don’t think we have played that well apart from about 2 games, yes, he needs time, from the Newcastle game till Xmas will be a crucial period for Dean smith.
Yes. I’ve had huge doubts about Smith since last year and promotion didn’t change that. Grealish came back and pulled us up, before that came some of the worst football I’d ever seen from a Villa side. That 14 game run before Derby when Grealish came back told us more about Smiths capabilities than what came after. He needed to find a way of doing something different during that run and didn’t.
The never changing formation, no matter who you are playing and who you have available didn’t work between December and March, so it certainly wasn’t going to work in the Premier League. Other than Rotherham away when we had no choice because of Mings being sent off, I can’t remember a single minute of a single game under Smith where we have played anything other than 4-3-3. He’s great at getting us a lead, but there’s not much point in that if you don’t change anything once the opposition make a change. I’ve never had such dread as I have under Smith when the opposition make a substitution. I can’t think of any other manager that has never tried a different formation. His game management is very poor. A prime example being leaving Grealish on against Man City when the game was gone. I said to my uncle ‘why is he leaving Grealish on to get injured or sent off?’. Sure enough one of those inevitably happened.
People say Smith will learn. There’s no evidence of it, just like there wasn’t between Leeds at home and Stoke away last season. You can only learn if you are willing to change things, and I don’t count playing Grealish on the left as a real change. Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool are all games that we might have won had Smith parked the bus with 20 mins to go. Any substitutions are always like for like keeping the 4-3-3 which just won’t work at this level. It didn’t work at Wigan away last season either when he made that triple substitution, so no, he doesn’t learn. People say play 4-2-3-1 which I agree with but under Smith we know that isn’t going to happen.
We’ve beaten a dreadful Everton side on that Friday, a dreadful Norwich side and got extremely lucky against a Brighton side that were running rings around us until Mooy got sent off. If Smith stays I think we are going down. At the moment we are in danger of wasting a great opportunity
The frightening thing about this post is that it is well argued, largely correct and worryingly convincing.
I agree. There is absolutely no flexibility in what Smith does at all. It's always the exact same formation, and then his substitutions are always like for like, and more often than not makes matters worse on the pitch. At our best we play some very good football, but when we come under the cosh we never have any answer to it. We got away with it in the Championship, but are getting punished regularly in the Premier League in the second half of an awful lot of games. I expected a little bit more than hoping that there are three worse teams than us. Still relatively early in the season, but the Newcastle game is looking huge.
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I think we'll batter Newcastle. Steve Bruce gets very confused by teams that play football.
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They beat Spurs and Bournemouth who both play football. Both sides beat us playing football. For all his shitness Bruce has got something going at Newcastle even if in the it will all come crashing down. But right now I don't fancy us without Grealish because we are just predictable.
The post by Mr Ketzster is very good
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It's all very well to say if we'd parked the bus we might have won. How many times did we slag of Bruce (and previous managers) for doing exactly that? If you sit deep and invite pressure, more ofyen than not a good team will exploit it.
We do seem to have a soft underbelly, but we have been playing deeper to try to see games out, it's just that Smith likes to keep attacking options open with his subs to keep the oposition thinking. I'm not saying I don't hink he's made mistakes, but I can often see the logic in what he is trying.
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They beat Spurs and Bournemouth who both play football. Both sides beat us playing football. For all his shitness Bruce has got something going at Newcastle even if in the it will all come crashing down. But right now I don't fancy us without Grealish because we are just predictable.
The post by Mr Ketzster is very good
You're right. I should have said that he gets confused when he plays a Dean Smith side.
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7 of the starting 11 yesterday were signed in the Summer so Smith's had precisely 12 games to work with them. On top of that, we were missing our best player, his replacement, one of our centre halves and our goalie. And then lost the replacement goalie and left back to injury in the first half.
And despite all that we lost by just 1 goal, away from home, to a team who qualified for Europe last year.
I really don't think it's time to get the razor blades out just yet.
I think we'll stuff Newcastle in a fortnight but even if we don't it's not the end of the world. There's a long way to go in this season. Anyone who thought we'd be comfortable was dreaming - it was always going to be a struggle but there's some absolutely abysmal teams in this division and we'll be fine. Remember, it was only a week ago that we were getting plaudits for giving the European champions the scare of their lives.
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Let's be honest, if Jack misses 13 games this season like he did last, we will be down. We won 2 of 13 in the Championship without him, OK so we've improved a bit in a few areas since then, but at this level I think we'd go on a similar run. Hopefully he's back for Newcastle and stays fit.
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Our midfield is not good enough to play 4-3-3. Yesterday he should have played 4-2-3-1, or 4-1-4-1, offer some protection, Dean in my humble opinion is to rigid to one system, without Jack we often look poor
Looks to me as if we were playing 4231 with Luiz and Nakamba sitting?
I think it’s 4 3 3 with SJM roaming a bit from the right.
Not sure about that, certainly when Grealish played recently it looked very much a 4231 with AEG, McGinn and Grealish the three. In truth we were a complete rabble in that first half so it was hard to know where anyone was playing, the players seemed in the same boat. McGinn definitely dropped deeper next to Luiz when Nakamba went off and Lansbury seemed to be playing up near Wesley, got in the box a good bit anyway.
I was very critical of Smith earlier in the season with the "two number eights" formation, which had Hourihane sitting and McGinn and Grealish further forward. Teams played through us at will. Nakamba has certainly added a bit of bite and mobility in there and Luiz is the natural partner for him. But he can start earning his spot on the team through performances on the pitch not on reputation from now on. We were pushing hard for an equaliser yesterday when he bottled physical contact with Traore for the second goal.
I'm not a huge fan of 352 or 343 but I think its something we could consider. Konsa in the middle with Engels and Mings on either side. We are far too easy to play against and arent creating enough chances, not a great combination.
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A team that continually alters its formation has a manager that doesn't know his best side.
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A team that continually alters its formation has a manager that doesn't know his best side.
It doesn't need to be continual change, just the ability to alter the formation or the type of substitutions once in a while to get a result.
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Let's be honest, if Jack misses 13 games this season like he did last, we will be down. We won 2 of 13 in the Championship without him, OK so we've improved a bit in a few areas since then, but at this level I think we'd go on a similar run. Hopefully he's back for Newcastle and stays fit.
When you think about it we've been pretty good with injuries this season. McGinn and Mings have played every game, Jack up to Liverpool had also played every game and I think Wesley has aswell. He's obviously not as good as the others but considering the lack of depth we have upfront it's important he stays fit.
So all our key players have been available up to Liverpool for every league fixture. I think bar Trez being suspended for West Ham the two regular wingers have also been available.
It's very difficult to do that for even half a season and now we're coming up to December knocks and strains are happening. Where we are at the club currently is we need our first choice 11 out to be confident of winning premier league games. I doubt I was the only one at 1pm yesterday looking at team news and thinking it would be a massive struggle to even get a point and so it proved.
It's not just us btw. West Ham's defence has completely gone to pot since Fabianski got injured, that joker they've got in goal now is one of worst premier league keepers I've seen since Mark Bunn was playing in this league. Also Man. United have looked better going forward since Martial returned.
Really shows you how crucial January is. At the very least we need to sign 2-3 who can be decent game changers off the bench and come in when likes of McGinn or Jack aren't available. A 2007 type window would be great as Young and Carew not only improved us that season but for the following seasons afterwards.
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I agree HQ, we were throwing away points with a full squad to pick from, now those points are going to be even harder to achieve.
Relying on the January transfer window is risky but as you say we need some quality recruits in some critical positions.
Centre Forward being the most important.
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We we have been slightly unfortunate with injuries is that the player who is perhaps closest to Jack in terms of skill set, in Jota, was also injured at the same time.
Would be the same with the GK position if Heaton is out for any length of time (not sure what the prognosis is for him?) as not many sides get down to their third choice keeper.
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A team that continually alters its formation has a manager that doesn't know his best side.
It doesn't need to be continual change, just the ability to alter the formation or the type of substitutions once in a while to get a result.
I know what you're saying but the squad isn't deep enough yet. We just don't have the creativity once Jack is out. We have no third winger to put pressure on Trezeguet and El Ghazi unless Jack plays wide. We need three or four more in come the transfer window.
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I think people hoping for 3 or 4 signing in January will be dissapointed. My guess is we'll be looking at one or maybe two at most. And even for those we'll probably be held to ransom until the end of the window.
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I think people hoping for 3 or 4 signing in January will be dissapointed. My guess is we'll be looking at one or maybe two at most. And even for those we'll probably be held to ransom until the end of the window.
A couple of very good additions is all we need. The defence has more than an enough cover, and so has the midfield 3. It's up front where we're woefully short. A proper striker and another decent attacking option and we'll be good.
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I think people hoping for 3 or 4 signing in January will be dissapointed. My guess is we'll be looking at one or maybe two at most. And even for those we'll probably be held to ransom until the end of the window.
A couple of very good additions is all we need. The defence has more than an enough cover, and so has the midfield 3. It's up front where we're woefully short. A proper striker and another decent attacking option and we'll be good.
yep i would agree with that
I actually think we are those two ‘very good’ additions away from having a top half starting 11 (maybe eleven a top eight)
Obviously then as we go forward can strengthen the squad
on the subject of the thread title
I will get a bit worried if we lose to Newcastle
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As an outsider looking at this I can understand the frustration, you’re lost to top teams after leading, you’ve lost quite few games by the odd goal, what did really you expect at the start of the season? If look at the three teams below you, your goal difference is far better that’s worth a point, I said the same thing at the start of the season, this is were John Terry earn his corn, what you need now between now and Christmas two or three scrappy 1-0 wins, at the moment your only a couple of wins away from the safety of mid table.
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Personally I have to say we are a season away form being a really great team.
Glimpses have been shown and keep these lot together every bloody last one of them will improve with our main man and coach supreme Deano!
Additional moves are needed in window however, hope they are more of the ready to come in to first team rather than a development type player.
I also have a strong belief as this squad have more time together and play games together the better they will become as players and as a team.
Finally I have so much faith in Smith that he will develop this team this season and Villa will show the progression and will be a good standing team come season end.
It takes some time to come together however it will come together and basically Villa will improve as season goes on.
That's what I think anyway.
So that's why I'm not worried (right now!)
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I admire your optimism. Personally I think we will struggle this season but survive and hopefully move on to more comfortable things next season.
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I admire your optimism. Personally I think we will struggle this season but survive and hopefully move on to more comfortable things next season.
Seconded
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i think we will survive but the old frustrations of the previous 4-5 years in the Premier League have really got to me again after three seasons of enjoyment in admittedly a lower quality division. The plethora of late goals against, the inability to beat the Sky teams, the patronising opposition fans, i haven't missed this at all. And to top it all off its bloody difficult getting a ticket this season. Having said that we have the best set up and management in years and the team is full of decent players who do seem to care (Sunday aside!). I am sure in January Deano wont be hung out to dry and denied transfer funds like Garde was. In 2016 the white flag was being waved in January (if not earlier than that), this year our backers will do what it takes to strenghen the team. Beat Newcastle and things will look a whole lot better, i just think we need to be more positive in terms of playing two strikers up front because Wesley is extremely isolated in most of the games hes played. He hasnt impressed me bar one or two games but i would be interested to see how he got on with someone playing closer to him.
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I think people hoping for 3 or 4 signing in January will be dissapointed. My guess is we'll be looking at one or maybe two at most. And even for those we'll probably be held to ransom until the end of the window.
A couple of very good additions is all we need. The defence has more than an enough cover, and so has the midfield 3. It's up front where we're woefully short. A proper striker and another decent attacking option and we'll be good.
Agree that a striker and another wide option are a must in January. I would ideally like another central midfielder to go alongside Marvelous, as I think Douglas is struggling a bit to adapt at the moment and I don't think Hourihane and Lansbury are good enough if we want to push on in this league. Attacking options are the priority though and I would forego strengthening other areas if it meant investing heavily in two players in those positions.
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Difficult to know how good Lansbury is. If we get a decent Centre Forward I will be happy, I think we have options every where else.
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I think Lansbury is a talented player, the problem is, to really settle and get the best out of him, he needs a run of games, which is never going to happen because after one or two matches, he'll trip over an inconveniently positioned blade of grass, do his hamstring and be out for six weeks.
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2 or 3 is really all we need. Many of our problems have, I think, stemmed from the squad still integrating and getting to know each other. The last thing we need to do is start that process all over again.
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2 or 3 is really all we need. Many of our problems have, I think, stemmed from the squad still integrating and getting to know each other. The last thing we need to do is start that process all over again.
I agree. I also think that as time goes on, those players who people think maybe aren't ready will keep playing and will be good enough. It takes a bit of time to build that knowledge and way of playing together.
I'd like another striker and an out-and-out pacy winger. Other than that we're ok for now.
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If we have got 20 points after the Norwich game on Boxing Day and I think we will be ok
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If we have got 20 points after the Norwich game on Boxing Day and I think we will be ok
That has to be the target. Wins v Newcastle, Southampton and Norwich would get us there.
Think we always used to be around that total in Lambert's three seasons and we only just stayed up in all three seasons. Anything less and it will be a major struggle as (on paper) we have a hard home run in the second half of the season.
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If we have got 20 points after the Norwich game on Boxing Day and I think we will be ok
That has to be the target. Wins v Newcastle, Southampton and Norwich would get us there.
Think we always used to be around that total in Lambert's three seasons and we only just stayed up in all three seasons. Anything less and it will be a major struggle as (on paper) we have a hard home run in the second half of the season.
Where we play the same teams we did in the first half... ;)
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If we have got 20 points after the Norwich game on Boxing Day and I think we will be ok
That has to be the target. Wins v Newcastle, Southampton and Norwich would get us there.
Think we always used to be around that total in Lambert's three seasons and we only just stayed up in all three seasons. Anything less and it will be a major struggle as (on paper) we have a hard home run in the second half of the season.
Where we play the same teams we did in the first half... ;)
Mainly teams stay up on their home form. If you get 25 points over a season at home then you only then to get 10 points away to stay up.
We have been o.k at home but still let some winnable games like Burnley and West Ham slip through our grasp.
After xmas we have to play Man. City, Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea and Man. United at VP. Beatable teams but they will still be playing for european places and we have terrible records v them bar Chelsea at Villa Park.
In an ideal fixture list I'd rather play all the top teams at home v xmas (given how poor Man. United and Spurs have been so far this season) and then you have all the relegation six pointers at home in the run in.
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If we bring a proven goalscorer in during January we will get over the line. As for being worried I think it is natural for anyone involved with a newly promoted club to be worried about being in a relegation battle. I think Norwich will struggle due to how many goals they concede and Sheffield United have done well so far but can they do it over a whole season? Add to that Southampton and Watford both seem to be having problems and Newcastle haven't totally convinced me despite doing well recently and I am hopeful of us keeping our heads out of the bottom six as the season goes on.
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get Jarred Bowen in January .. can play winger/upfront/support the striker . . scores and assists . .
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get Jarred Bowen in January .. can play winger/upfront/support the striker . . scores and assists . .
I agree. I think Bowen will get snapped up by a PL team soon and would love it to be us.
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Who?
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We're in a run of very tough games right now (we're three fixtures into a seven-game run where we play 7 of the current top 8 in the league), so I wouldn't expect us to get too many wins in the next four games.
BUT - our run over Xmas is actually quite kind, with our four games seeing us playing the current bottom three and Burnley again. The current tough run, is balanced by that easier Xmas. So I won't start to worry too much unless our position isn't improved after that Xmas run. In the short run, I certainly don't expect us to be heading too far up the league in the next few weeks, but we should do enough to keep touch with lower mid-table.
Win against Newcastle and one of the others from Chelsea, Leicester, ManU or Sheff Utd, and things will start looking a lot better. Get nothing from those games, and we'd need 9 points over Xmas, definitely.
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At the moment, i think Southampton and Norwich are highly likely to finish below us and i think 1 or 2 from Watford, Newcastle and Brighton will as well so i'm going to predict us finishing 16th or 17th.
I'd be happy enough with that, as i think the nature of the club at the moment, manager, back room, squad, owners can only go one way and i think it would give us a foundation to build on. We should be back to being comfortably a top half side in 3-4 years all being well.
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2 or 3 is really all we need. Many of our problems have, I think, stemmed from the squad still integrating and getting to know each other. The last thing we need to do is start that process all over again.
I agree. I also think that as time goes on, those players who people think maybe aren't ready will keep playing and will be good enough. It takes a bit of time to build that knowledge and way of playing together.
I'd like another striker and an out-and-out pacy winger. Other than that we're ok for now.
This was a point I tried to make in the summer, making loads of new signings is really exciting and lets fans get a bit carried away with thinking about how good we could be if everyone settles and performs to the level we want but it doesn't happen all that often. More likely you get a settling in period where you see good and bad from the players and you see some issues where players aren't quite used to playing together. It was my biggest problems with Bruce, he'd sign 6-7 players every summer and 3-4 every January and we'd be left looking like a new team after every window. The only time it didn't happen was when we signed Grabban and Tuanzebe and that led to us getting into the playoffs.
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Not worried at all at the moment.
Think Southampton and Norwich look very weak defensively, at least one of them is going down and probably both. I think Newcastle and Crystal Palace will both be in for a bit of a struggle too. Honestly, I think if we pick up a few points before Christmas, we'll be well out of it come the end of the season.
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I must admit I 'm starting to get worried. We're nearly a third of the way through the season and averaging less than a point a game. Yes, we've been robbed by poor officiating, and if Jack had played against Liverpool I think we'd have hung on for at least a point. We couldn't clear our lines for the last 20 minutes when we were hitting the ball long and it was coming straight back. With Jack in the side we'd have had someone who could carry the ball and slow things down or make things happen. Against Wolves we were by and large simply shocking, and we are where we are, and we don't really know when Jack will be back.
I think Norwich and Southampton are in deep trouble, but I think Watford will pull away especially now that they've got Deeney fit again. After Newcastle we've got a tough run of 4 games, and although we've got a relatively 'easy' run over Christmas, if a gap opens up it may be psychologically difficult to close that and we could be playing catch-up all season. Of course if we pick someone up in January who'd have the sort immediate impact Dion Dublin or Darren Bent had we'd be fine, but I don't know who that player might be. I have faith in the owners to make funds available to protect their investment, but I'm now officially worried.
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The problem is confidence
Win a couple like we did recently and we cannot wait for the next games, even though it was City and 'The Mighty Reds YNWA' we all was up for the games. Lose 3 on the bounce , as we have done, and all of a sudden every game in the upcoming fixtures looks daunting.
Every team puts in a few below par games when it just seems we are not at the races - lets hope the break snaps us out of it and we can get some of the critical players not only fit but firing again
Not prepared to give up just yet or even get too worried
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The bookies currently have Norwich as the relegation favourites with Watford and Southampton making up the bottom three. They have Newcastle, Villa and West Ham completing the bottom six. There is a it of a jump in the odds then to Brighton, Bournemouth and Palace. Everton come next. At the moment they rate Sheffield United and Burnley's chances of staying up more than Everton's.
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From hearing Everton supporters on the radio of late, there's plenty of concern amongst them. They can't see where a turnaround is going to come from. That was a bad result at the weekend, maybe there's something in those worries.
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Not any more. Think we will lose a lot of games but win enough to stay up comfortably. Can't see us drawing many.
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Get past Christmas above the bottom 3, which we will, we’ll be safe and sound mid table by March.
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1 point per game until we can get a forward in. If we get a goalscorer in January (or Wes becomes on) we will stay up comfortably (baring injuries). If not then we will be right in the mix.
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1 point per game until we can get a forward in. If we get a goalscorer in January (or Wes becomes on) we will stay up comfortably (baring injuries). If not then we will be right in the mix.
6th highest scorers in the league and you think more goals are needed?
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It would be nice.
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1 point per game until we can get a forward in. If we get a goalscorer in January (or Wes becomes on) we will stay up comfortably (baring injuries). If not then we will be right in the mix.
6th highest scorers in the league and you think more goals are needed?
Agree with this sentiment, even watching Wesley Monday his hold up play and lay offs to others count. It was noticeable that the fans in the Holte were behind him when he missed/ had his effort saved for the potential third goal. I think keeping it tighter at the back will bring more reward as let’s face it we’ve dropped more points from leading positions than most if not all teams in this division. That’s not me being critical of the defence either as I think we have several great combinations and plenty waiting in reserve it might just be that they are all finding their feet still as a relatively new squad ?
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From hearing Everton supporters on the radio of late, there's plenty of concern amongst them. They can't see where a turnaround is going to come from. That was a bad result at the weekend, maybe there's something in those worries.
Everton have a horrible fixture list coming up:
Leicester away
Liverpool away
Chelsea home
Man. United away
Arsenal home
They also play Man. City away on Jan 1st!
Probably why they haven't sacked Silva yet as they won't be getting a new manager bounce from those matches.
West Ham also have a tough run so I'd fancy us to be above both come the new year which you wouldn't have thought in August.
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A lot less worried after Monday result..
Still concerned about striker options, Smiths game management and our over reliance on Jack.
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From hearing Everton supporters on the radio of late, there's plenty of concern amongst them. They can't see where a turnaround is going to come from. That was a bad result at the weekend, maybe there's something in those worries.
Everton have a horrible fixture list coming up:
Leicester away
Liverpool away
Chelsea home
Man. United away
Arsenal home
They also play Man. City away on Jan 1st!
Probably why they haven't sacked Silva yet as they won't be getting a new manager bounce from those matches.
West Ham also have a tough run so I'd fancy us to be above both come the new year which you wouldn't have thought in August.
Arsenal doesn't count as a "horrible" game for anyone except us. Those bottling twats are determined to relegate us.
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1 point per game until we can get a forward in. If we get a goalscorer in January (or Wes becomes on) we will stay up comfortably (baring injuries). If not then we will be right in the mix.
6th highest scorers in the league and you think more goals are needed?
A quality goal scorer would be nice, but most teams around the world are after one of them. I would settle for someone who can chip in with goals, but more importantly can hold the ball up and bring others into play.
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I'm starting to worry a bit now - the points are beginning to look harder to pick up - giving Smith a contract extension at this stage of the season was a strange one - I'm finding it hard to comprehend that we are currently looking to play catch up with the likes of Brighton, (should read Palace) Burnley and Bournemouth - I guess that demonstrates just how low we fell. Trying to find a decent available striker in January may prove difficult - Wesley isn't exactly setting the place on fire is he? At the moment he looks a poor signing .......I was becoming confident of us staying up, now I'm having doubts - those doubts centre around Smith's apparent inability to make timely substitutions or changes of set up to counter act the opposition and the lack of a prolific striker .....there is a long way to go and it may just go to the wire
Not sure my nerves will take it ..........still we've got the right manager in place for the Championship :(
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Brighton are below us at the moment. They've lost their last four games and they'll have to beat Arsenal away by three or four goals tonight in order to go above us (I hope I've counted correctly; I know the bean-counters are watching).
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After these games (Man U - Chelsea - Leicester) I expected us to be in the bottom 3. It seems unlikely that will happen now. We are also beating the teams in or expected to be in the bottom 8. We responded to three straight defeats by beating an in-form Newcastle. I think there is enough there, along with hopefully some Jan reinforcements to mean we can finish 15-16th.
I don't have the same vibe from the team that we had in the last couple of years in the Prem. There is naivety but a willingness to improve and a togetherness which gives me hope.
I may be worried if we are in the bottom 3 in mid January.
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Brighton are below us at the moment. They've lost their last four games and they'll have to beat Arsenal away by three or four goals tonight in order to go above us (I hope I've counted correctly; I know the bean-counters are watching).
I realised that as I posted - BE
I should have typed Palace :)
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Also Brighton only need a point to go above us
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8 or 10 points from Sheff U, Saints, Norwich and Watford puts us on 23 or 25 after 20 games and well on course for survival.
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I think our destiny this season is going to hinge on what we do in the transfer window and, to a lesser extent, how quickly we do it.
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Also Brighton only need a point to go above us
And we know what a bunch of bottling Villa-shafting ****** Arsenal are.
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Get a striker in Jan and we'll be fine - as it has always been it's about how we do against the bottom clubs. We'll fluke (play brilliantly) against the odd top 10 team and win like they do. But Arsenal and Spurs are annoying the bejeesus out of me for being so c**p at pivotal times.
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I said a couple of weeks ago that if Smith stays we will go down, so I was disappointed with the new contract. If we go down, Grealish will leave, and we saw last season that Smith was clueless without him before he came back against Derby. He wasn’t willing to try anything different in that dreadful run last season, and he isn’t willing to try anything different now, like last night when it was clear to everybody 4-3-3 wasn’t working. The playing out from the back as well for example is fine, but it has cost us a few times and nearly cost us in the play off semi final second leg last season. People rightly blame Mings for Man United’s first goal on Sunday, but surely Smith should tell them to consider who they are playing and to judge the situation accordingly. You can probably get away with it against Milwall at home, but Man United away requires a different approach. Mings was still messing around on the edge of his own box last night so when people say Smith will learn, he evidently never does. He sets up the same regardless of who we are playing, and it just won’t, and doesn’t work.
In my opinion he is a mid championship level manager and wouldn’t get us back up if we go down. People will say he got us up last season, but that was much more to do with Grealish than Smith. I have had serious, serious doubts about Smith as a manager since January and promotion didn’t change that
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Almost half of our fixtures so far have come against last seasons top seven, and all but one of them away from home. These fixtures have, somewhat understandable, made up the majority of our defeats.
It was disappointing that we gave up points in some ‘easier’ games at the start of the season, but I still think the team have shown enough improvement and quality since then that will we be fine.
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Southampton at home in a few weeks is looking a bigger game than it usually would be. Adams will probably break his goal drought then not score again all season.
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Almost half of our fixtures so far have come against last seasons top seven, and all but one of them away from home. These fixtures have, somewhat understandable, made up the majority of our defeats.
It was disappointing that we gave up points in some ‘easier’ games at the start of the season, but I still think the team have shown enough improvement and quality since then that will we be fine.
The problem is, because other teams around us are picking up points against the bigger teams, like Norwich and Newcastle against Man City for example, just winning our easier games isn’t going to work. We are pretty much the only team not to pick up any points against the higher sides and we aren’t going to win every game against those around us
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The only thing that really concerns me is that whilst we are scoring goals from midfield, we don't have that 15 goal a season striker that the likes of Southampton have in Ings. If we can pick up a decent striker and another other winger in January I think we'll be ok. We're playing decent football but just lack some quality in the final third in some of the tougher games. Need to cut out Mings' casual mistakes as well!
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Almost half of our fixtures so far have come against last seasons top seven, and all but one of them away from home. These fixtures have, somewhat understandable, made up the majority of our defeats.
It was disappointing that we gave up points in some ‘easier’ games at the start of the season, but I still think the team have shown enough improvement and quality since then that will we be fine.
The problem is, because other teams around us are picking up points against the bigger teams, like Norwich and Newcastle against Man City for example, just winning our easier games isn’t going to work. We are pretty much the only team not to pick up any points against the higher sides and we aren’t going to win every game against those around us
To be fair, the only times we have been outclassed this season are the second half last night and Man City away arguably. We probably came closer than any team this season in beating the champions elect.
Flip side of that is the plucky losers tag, like Mowbrays West Brom isn't a great one for a relegation battle. Sheff Utd for example seem far better set up to dig in and get points. Maybe we need some more pragmatic team selections at times like Hause at left back.
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Almost half of our fixtures so far have come against last seasons top seven, and all but one of them away from home. These fixtures have, somewhat understandable, made up the majority of our defeats.
It was disappointing that we gave up points in some ‘easier’ games at the start of the season, but I still think the team have shown enough improvement and quality since then that will we be fine.
The problem is, because other teams around us are picking up points against the bigger teams, like Norwich and Newcastle against Man City for example, just winning our easier games isn’t going to work. We are pretty much the only team not to pick up any points against the higher sides and we aren’t going to win every game against those around us
To be fair, the only times we have been outclassed this season are the second half last night and Man City away arguably. We probably came closer than any team this season in beating the champions elect.
Flip side of that is the plucky losers tag, like Mowbrays West Brom isn't a great one for a relegation battle. Sheff Utd for example seem far better set up to dig in and get points. Maybe we need some more pragmatic team selections at times like Hause at left back.
Wolves away was diabolical and we were totally outplayed by Brighton until Mooy got sent off. Smiths lack of tactical ability was also demonstrated during that game, at Arsenal away and West Ham at home where we played against ten men for long periods.
Everybody keeps saying ‘Dean should try this, try that’, but Smith never ever does. Last season after Wigan away we said he needed to, he didn’t. We said after Reading away he needed to, he didn’t. The only change he made last season was picking Grealish against Derby.
All of arguments that Smith will learn, needs time with the players etc would work if it wasn’t for the fact that we have the evidence from the dreadful run last season where he didn’t change anything. Even during the 10 game run there was some pretty ordinary football like Rotherham away in the first half. Eventually the fact that we had better players than the other teams around us meant that we would win a few games. Unfortunately, this time, because other teams have better players we don’t have that luxury and we are reliant on Smith’s tactical ability. And his tactical ability and in game management isn’t good enough for this level. It barely was in the championship
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20 points after the Norwich game on Boxing Day and we will be ok, if we don’t get to 20, I will start to get concerned. Being 1 point of the relegation places is a worry though.
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Also Brighton only need a point to go above us
That's it! I'm never commenting on points and tables again. Fucking useless!
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Also Brighton only need a point to go above us
That's it! I'm never commenting on points and tables again. Fucking useless!
Thick fucker!
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Almost half of our fixtures so far have come against last seasons top seven, and all but one of them away from home. These fixtures have, somewhat understandable, made up the majority of our defeats.
It was disappointing that we gave up points in some ‘easier’ games at the start of the season, but I still think the team have shown enough improvement and quality since then that will we be fine.
The problem is, because other teams around us are picking up points against the bigger teams, like Norwich and Newcastle against Man City for example, just winning our easier games isn’t going to work. We are pretty much the only team not to pick up any points against the higher sides and we aren’t going to win every game against those around us
That’s fair, although I wouldn’t completely rule out us picking up some points against them in the return home fixtures. Haven’t looked, but it can’t be many teams that have played them all away like we have. And while part of it can definitely be put down to our naivety, we have been quite unlucky in some of those games as well.
Also, the other teams seem to be losing or dropping points more regularly to other teams around them (hence being below or on similar points to us still despite these ‘big’ wins) whereas our more recent form against similar teams has been pretty good.
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Almost half of our fixtures so far have come against last seasons top seven, and all but one of them away from home. These fixtures have, somewhat understandable, made up the majority of our defeats.
It was disappointing that we gave up points in some ‘easier’ games at the start of the season, but I still think the team have shown enough improvement and quality since then that will we be fine.
The problem is, because other teams around us are picking up points against the bigger teams, like Norwich and Newcastle against Man City for example, just winning our easier games isn’t going to work. We are pretty much the only team not to pick up any points against the higher sides and we aren’t going to win every game against those around us
That’s fair, although I wouldn’t completely rule out us picking up some points against them in the return home fixtures. Haven’t looked, but it can’t be many teams that have played them all away like we have. And while part of it can definitely be put down to our naivety, we have been quite unlucky in some of those games as well.
Also, the other teams seem to be losing or dropping points more regularly to other teams around them (hence being below or on similar points to us still despite these ‘big’ wins) whereas our more recent form against similar teams has been pretty good.
How we do against the Champions League challengers is not going to define our season. If we can pick up 30 points at home, we'll stay up - so far we've got 11 from 7 games which is pretty much bang on target. With Southampton and Norwich two of our next three home games I'm expecting a minimum of 6 points which leaves us on 17 points from 10 games, putting us ahead of target.
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I think Jack is hitting form at a good time. Trezeguet is playing well. Mings is all about simple concentration and just being given a tougher time by the coaching staff. Someone needs to roast him for these silly errors, but he's a quality player. Cut the nonsense and he'll be top drawer. I'd give McGinn a rest against Sheff Utd too. He's just looking a bit jaded. We have to remember he is actually human. He's dropping below par at the minute. AEG has goals in him.
January is coming. 2-3 in (a striker is a must).
With how our midfield is coming along and the potential of hopefully another striking option (which in the end I think will actually benefit Wesley, rather than being a death knell), I think we'll finish quite strongly. We have to look at it too, because we've had a fucking horrible run of games recently too. City, Liverpool, Wolves (A), Utd, Chelsea. Newcastle was surprisingly comfortable, but thankfully that was a must win. Have we done worse than expected over that run? I'd have probably expected a point at Wolves and the atypical loss at Utd (so it's a switheroo on that) but that aside everything as is. I think Leicester will beat us. If we get a point we've done very well. They're ruthless. Sheff Utd is a big, big game. We need to take something from it.
It's the next three after that. Southampton, Norwich and Watford. We need to take 6 points minimum. Bare minimum from that. By the end of December if we've taken 7 points we'll be on 22 points and probably on course to be safe at 38-40 points at the end. Those latter 3 games also give us a chance to just kick em below us a bit and keep distance. If we've got 9-10 points by the end of the month that'll be more comfortable and it's not out of the realms of possibility.
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Almost half of our fixtures so far have come against last seasons top seven, and all but one of them away from home. These fixtures have, somewhat understandable, made up the majority of our defeats.
It was disappointing that we gave up points in some ‘easier’ games at the start of the season, but I still think the team have shown enough improvement and quality since then that will we be fine.
The problem is, because other teams around us are picking up points against the bigger teams, like Norwich and Newcastle against Man City for example, just winning our easier games isn’t going to work. We are pretty much the only team not to pick up any points against the higher sides and we aren’t going to win every game against those around us
That’s fair, although I wouldn’t completely rule out us picking up some points against them in the return home fixtures. Haven’t looked, but it can’t be many teams that have played them all away like we have. And while part of it can definitely be put down to our naivety, we have been quite unlucky in some of those games as well.
Also, the other teams seem to be losing or dropping points more regularly to other teams around them (hence being below or on similar points to us still despite these ‘big’ wins) whereas our more recent form against similar teams has been pretty good.
How we do against the Champions League challengers is not going to define our season. If we can pick up 30 points at home, we'll stay up - so far we've got 11 from 7 games which is pretty much bang on target. With Southampton and Norwich two of our next three home games I'm expecting a minimum of 6 points which leaves us on 17 points from 10 games, putting us ahead of target.
I get this, but it does put more pressure on the games against the lower teams. We mustn't just write off matches against the top teams which unfortunately is what has happened far too regaularly in the past. E.g. from the BBC:
"Aston Villa have picked up just one point from their last 42 available in away games against sides starting the day in the top four".
Also the teams around us will be targeting points against us in just the same way.
If we hadn't just been promoted, then I think a lot of fans would be worried to be just a point above the relegation zone.
We have generally been competitive as Dean keeps saying, but we have thrown in some poor performances as well whether in games as a whole or for parts of matches: Palace, Arsenal - the last half an hour versus 10, Wolves, yesterday, and the inability to impose ourselves against the 10 men of West Ham and Brighton (apart from a last kick winner).
I just hope they have a decent striker lined up for January; and at the start not a January 31st panic buy.
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We've taken 11 points from our last 10 games which is the ratio you need to pass the magic 40 points. And that 10 game run has included Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City, Wolves, Man Utd away plus Liverpool at home.
After Leicester we have a run of 9 games where the only 'top' side we play are Spurs, I reckon that's the run that will show if it should be time to worry, not during the run of fixtures we're in.
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From another thread, this was my prediction which is still stand by:
Man U A - D
Chelsea A - L
Leicester H - D
Sheff Utd A - D
Soton H - W
Norwich H - W
9 points. You heard it here first.
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Lots of comments on the site about Wesley but I am just as concerned at our defensive frailties - collective rather than individual.
Sheffield United - with a more settled team who have been together for a while - seem to be able to hunt down the opposition and limit space and chances. They also seem to have a mental toughness to come back and secure points against some of the better team like Chelsea, Spurs and Man U. For certain away games I would be much happier if we had played a tighter formation 4-5-1 and limited space. This would be easier if we had genuine pace as an outlet though.
I think we really need a signature win against a team well above us in the table to give the players more belief. A point at Manyoo was a step in the right direction but only our 4th away point. The real missed opportunity for me was Arsenal, where we were very good for an hour, albeit against 10 men for a chunk of that.
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I'm starting to worry a bit now - the points are beginning to look harder to pick up - giving Smith a contract extension at this stage of the season was a strange one - I'm finding it hard to comprehend that we are currently looking to play catch up with the likes of Brighton, (should read Palace) Burnley and Bournemouth - I guess that demonstrates just how low we fell. Trying to find a decent available striker in January may prove difficult - Wesley isn't exactly setting the place on fire is he? At the moment he looks a poor signing .......I was becoming confident of us staying up, now I'm having doubts - those doubts centre around Smith's apparent inability to make timely substitutions or changes of set up to counter act the opposition and the lack of a prolific striker .....there is a long way to go and it may just go to the wire
Not sure my nerves will take it ..........still we've got the right manager in place for the Championship :(
Cheer up clive.
We are the grand of no points behind Brighton (pending Arsenal gifting them points as CDBW says)1 point behind Bournemouth (and they have some of the fixtures we've had recently coming up) and 3 behind Burnley who have Spurs away on Saturday. Do your Everton friends take such offence at being behind all these apparent minnows?
The crucial part of the season was always going to be Southampton-Norwich-Watford- Burnley over 10 days at the end of the year. It's important we don't mess that part up as 7-9 points from those four games will massively change things. We could well be in the top half and looking up and looking forward to the January transfer window.
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Almost half of our fixtures so far have come against last seasons top seven, and all but one of them away from home. These fixtures have, somewhat understandable, made up the majority of our defeats.
It was disappointing that we gave up points in some ‘easier’ games at the start of the season, but I still think the team have shown enough improvement and quality since then that will we be fine.
The problem is, because other teams around us are picking up points against the bigger teams, like Norwich and Newcastle against Man City for example, just winning our easier games isn’t going to work. We are pretty much the only team not to pick up any points against the higher sides and we aren’t going to win every game against those around us
It's worked so far, we're above the bottom 3. With our very decent GD we're pretty much got 40% of the points we need already to stay from a pretty tough first 15 games on the fixture list.
Things will get easier on paper from this point on. I know the home games will get tougher but given how we've played in some of the away games I reckon we can get 2 wins and the odd draw when Arsenal, Man. United, Chelsea and Spurs all come to VP after xmas.
Of course a Grealish injury would be a major issue but we have January transfer window to do something about that.
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Also Brighton only need a point to go above us
That's it! I'm never commenting on points and tables again. Fucking useless!
Thick fucker!
He’s probably spent all day in bed, smoking Gauloises, reading Sartre and drinking cheap Pinot Noir while he’s on strike the lazy French bastard.
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Also Brighton only need a point to go above us
That's it! I'm never commenting on points and tables again. Fucking useless!
Thick fucker!
He’s probably spent all day in bed, smoking Gauloises, reading Sartre and drinking cheap Pinot Noir while he’s on strike the lazy French bastard.
Tres bien JC :)
Made me smile
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A little bit worried.
Results tonight not been kind to us!
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Ask me after the Burnley game on NY Day !
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Also Brighton only need a point to go above us
And we know what a bunch of bottling Villa-shafting c***s Arsenal are.
Why didn't I have money on this? FFS.
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Weird league. If everyone below the top 3-4 is much is a muchness, which seems to be the case, presumably that translates into a very high points total to avoid relegation?
Can someone other than BE (wink) explain this to me?!
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hope those three points we threw away at Arsenal arent going to come back and bite us.
Great win for Brighton, they seemed a lot more compact than we do away from home.
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It would be lovely if results from teams around us went our way for a bloody change.
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Mind you, Brighton are a good team and shouldn’t be where they are. They were really impressive against us and we never would have beaten them without the red card.
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A lot of pressure now on the Leicester match
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Does anyone else find we're a little slow compared to other teams, we need to up the pace and pile the pressure on,we do it here and there for very short spells but most of the time it's back to the wall . The only team that have seemed as bad for it were Newcastle against us but Bruce seems to have found a way to pick up points against the big/decent teams
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It would be lovely if results from teams around us went our way for a bloody change.
You mean like last night when Watford, Norwich, West Ham, and Everton all lost?!
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Norwich lost to Southampton so you can't really count that as a result in our favour (or against us, for that matter).
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Does anyone else find we're a little slow compared to other teams, we need to up the pace and pile the pressure on,we do it here and there for very short spells but most of the time it's back to the wall . The only team that have seemed as bad for it were Newcastle against us but Bruce seems to have found a way to pick up points against the big/decent teams
There are often times when we begin to attack and then someone plays a negative pass when attacking options are available and we start going backwards.
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Norwich lost to Southampton so you can't really count that as a result in our favour (or against us, for that matter).
I'd say any night where 4 of the bottom 5 (excluding us) lose is a very good night for us.
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The worry this year is that there aren't really any obvious fall guys.
Watford are struggling, but they've got decent quality and could turn it around. Everton are surely too strong. Pretty much everyone else is picking up results.
We're playing some pretty good football and look too strong to go down, but we're still getting dragged into it. I think it will be a high points total cut off this season and we'll be in the mix. I thought 15-19th at the start and still feel that's about right. The Jan window will be vital.
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Agree with the minimum points tally. Cannot see it being 36-38 as in previous years. West Ham went down with 42 once didn’t they. Could be similar to that.
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A little bit now, but we've got some very winnable games coming up. Kind of.
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I think anything over 20 points at the halfway mark [after the Norwich game] would mean we're slightly ahead of the curve.
We have played most of last years top 7 away from home already, I think we've only not played Liverpool away. So there are plenty of opportunities to go and pick points up away from home in the second half of the season and we've already shown at home we're extremely competitive.
The other results are white noise as far as I'm concerned at this stage, if we get 42 points there will be three teams below us at the end of the season.
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Watford and Norwich look nailed on to go down. Watford would have to win the next 4 in a row to get to more than a point a game and they've only won 1 all season.
Similarly, Norwich would need to win 3 out of 4 to be above a point a game at the half way point. For a team averaging more than 2 goals conceded every match I just don't see it happening.
So for me that's 2 of the 3 spots wrapped up. You've then got 5 points separating Everton in 18th from Sheff Utd in 9th. Any of that lot (Arsenal excluded) could go down and we're right in the middle of it.
It obviously won't be easy but with the run of games we've got coming up we should be picking up plenty of points. If we don't, we deserve to go down.
Ultimately though, we just need to be better than just one of Newcastle, Southampton, West Ham, etc, etc, all of whom look dreadful.
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I usually just watch the goal difference until the mid-point of the season, ultimately points decide it but early in the season a few freak results - or an easy/hard run of games - can massively skew the table.
On that basis, I don't think we're in any realistic danger. We score goals at rate you'd expect from a top-half team, and are more like bottom-half for goals conceded but not awful. I'm saying we're basically a mid-table team who's had a hard run of fixtures. Not bad for a newly promoted team who've mostly been playing together for less than 6 months.
Absolutely no worries about Villa, Smith, or anything else.
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Our form against the bottom 10 reads P7 W4 D2 L1. Over a 38 game season would give us 76 points.
As someone else has said, we've played all bar Liverpool of last seasons top 7 away from home, and were unfortunate not to take more points from those.
A good couple of additions in Jan and more games to conti ue gelling the squad together, we'll be fine come the end of the season.
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Nigel Pearson is expected to be the new manager of Watford. That’s one relegation spot locked in. Need to avoid the other two.
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Not sure we can say it's a guaranteed relegation when he's never been relegated and escaped relegation in hugely unlikely circumstances last time he was in this league.
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Given he was dumped earlier this season from a Belgian First Division B side I’ll take my chances on them going down or him not lasting long enough to see it happen.
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Mental club appoints mental manager, what could possibly go wrong.
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Pearson really has had an impressively weird career hasn't he?
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Given he was dumped earlier this season from a Belgian First Division B side I’ll take my chances on them going down or him not lasting long enough to see it happen.
Well, it's entirely possible. But far from a guarantee. Especially given that even that useless bellend Newcastle manager has been getting decent results! 😥
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The worry this year is that there aren't really any obvious fall guys.
If we were Watford fans we'd be feeling doomed right now.
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I’m probably a little irrationally fucked off right now at some of our results this season. But on the whole we’ve competed well against the top sides even if we have blown the games. What gives me hope is that against the sides around which is really the league we are in we’ve done quite well. That’s what will matter in the end this season. Watford for me look fucked. Then after that it will be crap shoot for those last two spots. I still think it will be Norwich, and then any one of about 6 teams. And yes it includes us. We need a good January window. Pay what is needed and/or loan for whoever is needed for us to stay up.
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Not sure we can say it's a guaranteed relegation when he's never been relegated and escaped relegation in hugely unlikely circumstances last time he was in this league.
I think it's a really poor appointment for Watford. They've basically picked the short term British fix option and gone for arguably the worst one.
Nigel Pearson last managed in the prem in May 2015. Since then he lasted two months at Derby and did a poor job in Belgium second division.
Watford's next 3 games are Palace and Man. United at home and Liverpool away so they could easily be 10 + points off 17th by the time they play us.
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I think we should probably have learned my now not to look ahead at fixtures and start deciding clubs won't be getting any points in them. Other than Liverpool, they're all a bunch of bottling bastards working a conspiracy to relegate Villa.
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I’m probably a little irrationally fucked off right now at some of our results this season. But on the whole we’ve competed well against the top sides even if we have blown the games. What gives me hope is that against the sides around which is really the league we are in we’ve done quite well. That’s what will matter in the end this season. Watford for me look fucked. Then after that it will be crap shoot for those last two spots. I still think it will be Norwich, and then any one of about 6 teams. And yes it includes us. We need a good January window. Pay what is needed and/or loan for whoever is needed for us to stay up.
Agree with that TV. It feels like it's been a fairly decent season so far, but we've been in the lower reaches of the league for the majority of it. The games against Southampton, Norwich and Watford are going to be very big - get 7-9 points out of those three and we should be able to climb the table a bit.
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4th from bottom
What a result or everton
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4th from bottom
What a result or everton
And tomorrow we could be above them.
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4th from bottom
What a result or everton
And tomorrow we could be above them.
You can only control what YOU can control.
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I think the reality is that this year you could make an argument for saying every team is too good to go down. We need another striker, we need to get much better at holding onto winning positions and we need grealish to stay fit.
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I think the reality is that this year you could make an argument for saying every team is too good to go down. We need another striker, we need to get much better at holding onto winning positions and we need grealish to stay fit.
Or of course everyone deserves to!
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Yep. There’s usually 1-2 teams who look out of their depth stinking up the league, like we did when we went down. There’s nobody like that this year. Even Watford have looked decent, although hopefully the new manager will change that.
Above them, Southampton and Everton have good players, too good to be in serious danger you’d think, Bruce ball is working for Newcastle, annoyingly, and if Norwich can keep pukki scoring they could get a run together. We see going to have to be good to stay up.
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I love Dean Smith but I hope he's not serious about not needing a striker.
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It’s make or break for me in terms of My views on owners/smith/survival prospects. I’d be extremely surprised and disappointed if we didn’t pull the stops out to add a decent option up front.
If we don’t, it will be criminally negligent and a complete waste of an opportunity to consolidate our place in this league.
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I love Dean Smith but I hope he's not serious about not needing a striker.
He isnt going to announce to the world we need a striker that's the worst thing he could do on two counts. One would totally demoralise Wesley and two any enquiries we made would push the price up massively.
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I love Dean Smith but I hope he's not serious about not needing a striker.
He isnt going to announce to the world we need a striker that's the worst thing he could do on two counts. One would totally demoralise Wesley and two any enquiries we made would push the price up massively.
Agreed.
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I hope you're right. Not getting an extra striker in July was foolish. Not adding one in January would be insane.
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Yeah I’d add to the above that I also agree that we’re not going to be that daft and Smith is being tactical in his use of language, which I get.
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Frustrating we have yet to play Watford and Southampton this season. We must be the only team in the league who haven't played either of them?
Not saying we're just going to beat them but many teams have inflated their points tallies by beating them and we've yet to have that chance. Given how ridiculously tight the league is I'd say that's been a big difference.
Everton deserved their win today but worth noting 6 of their 17 points came with wins at home to Watford and at Southampton.
As frustrating as it is to be slowly drifting into the bottom 3 again there are reasons and I'd prefer to wait until we have played every single team in the league and then make proper judgement.
Generally we've been good v bottom half teams so I'm confident we can get 7 points from the xmas games which will change things.
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Yah good point. The problem is by playing them later the games become must wins which isn’t ideal.
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Yah good point. The problem is by playing them later the games become must wins which isn’t ideal.
We play Watford twice by end of January. Odd quirk of the fixture list but we won't be playing them in last ten games when it will become six pointer shoot out.
Ultimately need to be taking 4 points off them as that will be another two games they don't win.
Personally think Watford and Norwich are the two certs to go down. No idea at all on who the third will be as when one settles on 18th they suddenly start winning games again.
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Not based on todays scores so far no. Bournemouth losing heavily at home to Liverpool, Spurs thrashing Burnley and Watford and Palace drawing 0-0.
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Burnley's GD taken a hammering over last four days.
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Yeah I’d add to the above that I also agree that we’re not going to be that daft and Smith is being tactical in his use of language, which I get.
We are probably scouring the world for a good striker at a decent price. But so many other clubs will be doing the same. Finding a prolific striker at a reasonable price is like finding someone at the sty that has more than two brain cells.
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One thing to consider is the fact we’ve played all the top Sky clubs away so far bar Liverpool.
That said we’ve taken just the 1 point from 18 on offer.
Has any other team in the bottom half played all the big 6 with 5 of them away?
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But does this mean we’re going to have a second half of the season with lots of ‘lesser’ teams away, where they will be harder to beat, while playing teams at home who will beat us anyway? That’s my optimistic take anyway.
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But does this mean we’re going to have a second half of the season with lots of ‘lesser’ teams away, where they will be harder to beat, while playing teams at home who will beat us anyway? That’s my optimistic take anyway.
There is no way we should be writing off home games v Man. United, Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs after January. After the nightmare opening 10 minutes v Bournemouth we've actually been decent at home I think.
When you push Liverpool for 94 minutes and nearly get at least a draw from that you shouldn't be just writing off other home games as a few of those teams above struggle to win away from home for a reason.
To me our only proper winnable away game so far was Norwich and we won that 5-1 so think we can get draws when wins when we play some of the bottom half.
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We should've won at Arsenal.
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We should've won at Arsenal.
You'd never have thought it in August but that was our worst result of the season, even before you look at the circumstances of the game.
In the three months since Arsenal have only won one league game and failed to win at home v Palace, Wolves, Brighton and Southampton.
I'm sure cdbully will give a better evaluation of their strengths and weaknesses than I can though.....
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We should've won at Arsenal.
You'd never have thought it in August but that was our worst result of the season, even before you look at the circumstances of the game.
In the three months since Arsenal have only won one league game and failed to win at home v Palace, Wolves, Brighton and Southampton.
I'm sure cdbully will give a better evaluation of their strengths and weaknesses than I can though.....
We battered them for an hour and then caved to their reputation.
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I wonder if we helped the rest by showing how to play against them.
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I think the players just didn't believe in themselves. My main worry is that a lot of them see themselves as Championship/newly promoted players rather than Aston fucking Villa players.
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Although Watford were unlucky not to beat them before our game as well, and they exposed a lot of the shortcomings.
I think the point about reputations is right. If we had that exact game against them now I reckon we’d feel like we had more of a right to finish them off.
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I've been worried all season unfortunately. I worry that once we drop into the bottom three again, we'll lose so much confidence and will need another Deano special run.
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I think we will be fine but we do need another striker.
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a couple of weeks ago had a bit more hope, but very worried now
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Norwich, Watford and Bournemouth really better than us? Not to mention Soton
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This thread needs a touch of the Ron Saunders spirit, “do you want to bet against us”.
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This thread needs a touch of the Ron Saunders spirit, “do you want to bet against us”.
Exactly right. We will be fine
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Those that are worried will be relieved when we beat Leicester.
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It’s how inconsistent we are results wise. We need to win scrappy as good performances and no points is not helpful. It reminds me at times of lambert era when we scored first then inevitably got battered in the dying minutes.
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Those that are worried will be relieved when we beat Leicester.
Robbo my dear antipodean friend I truly hope you're right.
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You have to hope we will be ok as without hope what else do you have.
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Expectation? We'll be fine.
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(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/78693588_3266622580031944_1827552844085985280_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ohc=WCQMZwtExXQAQkzpn8IPZN0xkfUJO2JmOh5CaXhf1MFnfasCA4Xi9R7Aw&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=f562d7b1ec53688d1fdd57dc775cca6e&oe=5E76D30C)
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Down with the Watford I’m afraid.
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It's going to be a very high total this season to stay up.
Just looking at the table. West Ham on 16 but I can see them beating Arsenal with the state they're in. Bournemouth on 16 but think they'll go on a run when they get their injured players up.
Everything else will be on 18 or 19 points if Southampton hold on and we're not even at halfway stage. 35-36 points won't be enough even with our GD.
We need 7 more wins.
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It's not great right now, but I won't be too worried until we see where we are before play Man City on 12th Jan. After the run we're coming to end of, against pretty much every team vying for Champions League places, we've now got Sheff Utd, Southampton, Norwich, Watford and Burnley. Nine points from that lot and things will look a lot healthier. If we're still on less than 20 points, we're in trouble.
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We're definitely not making things easy for ourselves.
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Next 12 fixtures and these are the ones that will either see us safe or relegated imo.
A) Sheff Utd
H) Saints
H) Norwich
A) Watford
A) Burnley
H) Man City
A) Brighton
H) Watford
A) Bournemouth
H) Spurs
A) Saints
H) Sheff Utd
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Next 12 fixtures and these are the ones that will either see us safe or relegated imo.
A) Sheff Utd
H) Saints
H) Norwich
A) Watford
A) Burnley
H) Man City
A) Brighton
H) Watford
A) Bournemouth
H) Spurs
A) Saints
H) Sheff Utd
Wow. Shit or bust with those games
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Just over two months ago Newcastle went to Leicester and lost 5-0.
For all the stick we all give Bruce Newcastle response since that game has been excellent. Just two losses to us and Chelsea away.
Today is first time we've been battered at this level since promotion. Even in Man. City game it was 0-0 at half time so we were in it more than today.
We need to grow a pair and go out and battle for a point at Sheffield no matter how we play or who isn't injured and take things from there rather than just feeling sorry for ourselves or start worrying the fans will turn.
Buying or loaning a striker in January might help aswell.
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Beyond worried now.
Management is naive and the players are knackered and largely mediocre.
Big changes required.
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At the start of the season I said I'd be over the moon with 17th and that hasn't changed. We've spent a lot of money on a lot of players who aren't contributing.
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Maybe I am clutching at straws but of the bottom eight teams we have the best goal difference.
Burnley -8
Everton -9
Bourmemouth -6
West Ham -8
Villa -5
Southampton -17
Norwich -17
Watford -21
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Yep if we play like we have the last two games.
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After 16 games we're 1 win short of being on the points average we need to stay up. Beat Saints and Norwich at home and at the halfway mark we're back on target for 42 points.
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I'm not worried as of yet as it's quite a poor league down at our end, if we struggle to beat the likes of Watford, Southampton, Norwich ( again ) then ill start shitting my pants.
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The next five will probably give us an indication of where we're heading. We've got to be picking up 9 points absolute minimum and making up the ground we've lost in what has been a torrid fixture run. I'm thankful we caught Newcastle on a bad day because that should have been a tougher game than it was. I don't think we've done any worse than we should have expected between the Man City game and now.
Okay it never particularly applies to Villa because we're so good at shooting ourselves in the foot but, the second half of the season looks a little easier than the first half. Then depending on what we do in January as far as signings, I'd expect us to finish solidly.
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Today needs to be the kick in the balls Dean Smith needed. If we come out with the same bollocks next week, same system, same fucking inability to adapt he's going to be fucked The next string of games won't relegate us but if we fuck it up Dean Smith will be fired in my opinion.
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He won't.
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Im still not worried in the slightest.
But I am an idiot.
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Sorry but without a big spend up in January, this team is going down
Just not enough quality in it.
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Annoyingly, it feels like every other hopeless team in the bottom half have managed to pull a wonder result out of their arse. Okay, you'd rather beat your Burnleys and Norwichs, but an unexpected three points today would have taken so much pressure off the run to come.
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The loss today was not a surprise but the apparent lack of desire and fight is worrying ..... Sheffield won't be easy if we fail to match their competitiveness and team spirit
Starting to get twitchy right now
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How many good performances resulting in actual wins this season? Just Everton and Norwich for me.
We seem to have saved our best performances for our valiant defeats and games like Brighton don’t give me that much hope we can rack up enough wins in those crucial bottom half team at home fixtures. Really hope I’m wrong.
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How many good performances resulting in actual wins this season? Just Everton and Norwich for me.
We seem to have saved our best performances for our valiant defeats and games like Brighton don’t give me that much hope we can rack up enough wins in those crucial bottom half team at home fixtures. Really hope I’m wrong.
Newcastle.
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Everyone around us seems happy we'll get a good result at Sheffield and then beat the next three.
I wish I shared their confidence. That team looked devoid of ideas and belief today. There's a lot of work to do.
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Everyone around us seems happy we'll get a good result at Sheffield and then beat the next three.
I wish I shared their confidence. That team looked devoid of ideas and belief today. There's a lot of work to do.
Those of us who rocked up at Sheffield for the 4-1 drubbing last season will be under no illusion as to the task ahead.
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How many good performances resulting in actual wins this season? Just Everton and Norwich for me.
We seem to have saved our best performances for our valiant defeats and games like Brighton don’t give me that much hope we can rack up enough wins in those crucial bottom half team at home fixtures. Really hope I’m wrong.
Newcastle.
I think that was more about them being shite and a bit of magic from hourihane on dead balls than our overall game.
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Sorry but without a big spend up in January, this team is going down
Just not enough quality in it.
Stick a decent goal scoring striker in our team and it will make a big difference.
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There are other areas to improve but yes I agree a good striker would change everything. It must be so depressing playing alongside wes. I think a lot of the frustration and fatigue we are seeing now is a result of midfielders having had to score all the goals and defenders having to fill in gaps behind them for the last 7 games.
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Sorry but without a big spend up in January, this team is going down
Just not enough quality in it.
Stick a decent goal scoring striker in our team and it will make a big difference.
Yes this is an absolute must, the squad need a boost.
I am worried about the next 4 games as we are beginning to become undone.
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Improving the attack is essential.
However, after conceding 23 attempts today, that takes the total attempts against us to over 300 (!) this season which is a staggering and dreadful statistic in itself and is by some distance the most in the Prem.
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I said initially at start of season that Villa would stay up and be competitive to achieve 36 points. I did the stats and that's the points tally. Which will see us safe
A breakdown and successful example * is
9 wins 9 draws
*Brighton achieved to stay up last season. 36pts.
Villa currently :4 wins and 3 draws.
Villa need 5 more wins
Look at the winnable potential fixtures from 11 remaining at home
Southampton h
Norwich h
Watford h
Palace h
Sheff utd h
Wolves h
And Villa need 6 draws -we take some away points from rivals (and maybe even wins )
Away at
Southampton ,
Watford,
Brighton ,
Bournemouth.
West Ham
The other matches to play
Sheff utd away
Man City home
Spurs home
Chelsea home
Newcastle away
Wolves home
Liverpool away
Man utd home
Everton away
Arsenal home
Villa could only get 3 more wins but get 12 more draws we stay up.**
**Southampton in 17/18 36pts
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There are other areas to improve but yes I agree a good striker would change everything. It must be so depressing playing alongside wes. I think a lot of the frustration and fatigue we are seeing now is a result of midfielders having had to score all the goals and defenders having to fill in gaps behind them for the last 7 games.
At one point in the second half, he was completely free in the penalty area and Trezegeut opted to shoot rather than cut it back to him. Not sure if it was greed or just a lack of faith in him from Trez.
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The number of shots we concede doesn't speak volumes for the defence, but it also doesn't say a lot for what Luiz and Nakamba are supposed to be doing.
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Until our next win, I’m worried
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Luiz looked atrocious today. Sloppy passing, not even that hard to get off the ball and worryingly slow. There were a few occasions where him and targett were the closest players to a Leicester attacker and their inability/unwillingness to get after them was shocking.
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I feel like we’ve looked worse since we’ve tried to fit Luiz into the side.
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Luiz, Hourihane, McGinn all nowhere near the mark today. Luiz is baffling me.
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I feel like we’ve looked worse since we’ve tried to fit Luiz into the side.
I thought he was excellent personally v Newcastle and did well in early games this season.
Most of our team are young players playing in premier league for first time so ups and downs in form are inevitable. Konsa is another one, did o.k v Newcastle and Wolves but struggled since.
Tom Heaton is showing that sometimes buying proven and premier league experience players isn't always the wrong move. Kept the score down in a few defeats and we'll need him to keep this form in next few weeks.
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Luiz, Hourihane, McGinn all nowhere near the mark today. Luiz is baffling me.
Erm.
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Luiz, Hourihane, McGinn all nowhere near the mark today. Luiz is baffling me.
Erm.
In fairness, Connor was fairly close to Marc on the bench until the latter came on late doors.
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In fairness, Hourihane contributed more than Wesley today.
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Err yeah, that's what I meant. Yeah. 8)
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We might well stay up, but I am fairly sure we will be in the relegation mix at the death.
We can't play 4-3-3 against the top teams. We are now labeled easy meat in their books. You hate to see it.
The upcoming fixtures against less powerful opponents are now crucial.
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We will and we will be.
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This 4 3 3 is really hindering us. We're carrying AEG and Trez. Leicester's diamond system ironically enough looks like it would suit us so much better.
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Sorry but without a big spend up in January, this team is going down
Just not enough quality in it.
Stick a decent goal scoring striker in our team and it will make a big difference.
Did you see Smith's post match interview?
Words to the effect of "people keep telling me we're need a striker but we conceded 23 chances today at home. That's a bigger concern for me".
I get that he's not going to tell the whole world we're desperate for a striker (if it needs saying) but he seems very, very insistent that he's not in the market for one...
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This 4 3 3 is really hindering us. We're carrying AEG and Trez. Leicester's diamond system ironically enough looks like it would suit us so much better.
This.
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Or he's not going to destroy an already low on confidence striker by announcing to the press that we're looking to buy another one as Wesley has been crap.
I'd find it hard to imagine that the owners would spend 140m then watch us sleep walk into relegation.
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This 4 3 3 is really hindering us. We're carrying AEG and Trez. Leicester's diamond system ironically enough looks like it would suit us so much better.
This.
Really? 4-3-3 with Grealish in one of the front 3 positions actually had us on a nice little run before we hit the Man. City-Liverpool double trouble games.
I prefer it to early in the season when we had two out and out wingers and Grealish in the middle three and we looked very unbalanced at both ends.
My worry is in terms of major changes DS will go back to this and Sheffield United will expose the gaps between defence and midfield quite easily.
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Or he's not going to destroy an already low on confidence striker by announcing to the press that we're looking to buy another one as Wesley has been crap.
I'd find it hard to imagine that the owners would spend 140m then watch us sleep walk into relegation.
We need another one regardless. Given Kodj can't get any minutes off the bench in games we're losing it's safe to say he'll be off in January. Davis out with another injury. We must be only premier league club for years who've effectively played half the season with one out and out striker.
Given he's not very good it's a minor miracle we've scored so many goals this season.
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This 4 3 3 is really hindering us. We're carrying AEG and Trez. Leicester's diamond system ironically enough looks like it would suit us so much better.
This.
Thought their system worked so well today because their full-backs were excellent and got forward at every opportunity. Can't see ours providing the kind of outlet to make that system work well.
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5 defeats out of 7 but let's be realistic six of those games were against the current top 6. Too soon to panic.
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There full backs were excellent, especially Pereira. They knew exactly when to go and when to stay. I like both Guilbert and Targett but they dont have the same disciplined approach.
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Gulibert is good imo and can improve further. Good cross on him, knows when to get forward and got good pace to get back from upfield. Plenty to work with.
Targett on the other hand is alright in final third but he's another in the long line of left backs who isn't very good when one on one v a winger and isn't quick at all. He reminds me of Warnock a bit. Also seems to pick up a few injuries.
There is a reason why he couldn't get a regular game at a very poor Southammpton team last few years.
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Targett is a strange one, he lacks pace and is not great defensively but what he does have is a good understanding with Grealish on when to over lap and a very good delivery, he should of easily had 3 assists in the last 3 games if El-Ghazi had finished the sitters. The problem is when we dont finish them we are massively vunerable on the counter because he does not have Guilberts stamina to get up and down.
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Just watching MOTD such a positve, fast, energetic team in Sheffield United.we're slow and predictable and some of our players look tired, why? We aren't playing European football or have extra games.
Same set up, same tactics, same subs, playing with one striker, won't give other striker a chance, poor in game management. It's a good job Deano is villa or there'd be upraor
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It's a good job Deano is villa or there'd be upraor
There wouldnt and he's been questioned loads of times on here.
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Its clear to me looking at the team we dont have many game changers form the bench. Pereira looked a class above jota, el ghazi and trez. He was a lot better than grealish as well who had a absolute stinker 2nd half.
We need to get rid of Taylor, kodjia and elmo in jan and replace them. None of them are good enough.
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Coming out of the international break I was feeling good about the Newcastle and Man U games but other teams' results meant we were closer to the bottom 3 than before it. Now a couple of entirely predictable defeats and the table is looking decidedly dodgy. I think we'll be OK but picking up points over the next few games is crucial.
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I think Tresequet needs to start over El Ghazi. I've nothing against El Ghazi at all, I quite like him but Tresequet seems a lot better at sneaking into the box. As for Wes, id drop him for Kodjia personally for a game or two. I think he needs to do something at least.
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I know that Wesley cost £20m or whatever, but Kodj wasn't exactly a snip at £12m either, and he's proved in the past that he's a much better goal scorer and all round footballer than Wesley.
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This 4 3 3 is really hindering us. We're carrying AEG and Trez. Leicester's diamond system ironically enough looks like it would suit us so much better.
This.
Really? 4-3-3 with Grealish in one of the front 3 positions actually had us on a nice little run before we hit the Man. City-Liverpool double trouble games.
I prefer it to early in the season when we had two out and out wingers and Grealish in the middle three and we looked very unbalanced at both ends.
My worry is in terms of major changes DS will go back to this and Sheffield United will expose the gaps between defence and midfield quite easily.
It's not really a 433 anyway, El Ghazi/Trez tend to stay fairly wide on the right but Grealish is tucked in somewhere between a left winger and a 10. The change I'd make is to get the right winger doing the same. If it's Jota of Trez I'd want them on the ball and invovled in the build-up, if it's AEG I'd be getting him pushing into the box a lot more.
It all relies on us retaining possession better though, that's where we're losing games, we let teams recycle the ball far too easily and it means we get trapped in our own half and that's when Wesley looks terrible because he can't hold the ball up long enough to get people around him.
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Keep calm and carry on. Former Ipswich Chairman John Cavendish Cobbold was once asked if the club was in crisis. He replied "We only consider it to be a crisis when we run out of red wine in the boardroom".
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Keep calm and carry on. Former Ipswich Chairman John Cavendish Cobbold was once asked if the club was in crisis. He replied "We only consider it to be a crisis when we run out of red wine in the boardroom".
Pedant alert - wasn’t it white wine <winky thing>
Anyway as someone above said the template is better ball retention and Trying to get better support closer to Wesley, I don’t care how he does it in terms of formation, he just needs to sort it.
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This 4 3 3 is really hindering us. We're carrying AEG and Trez. Leicester's diamond system ironically enough looks like it would suit us so much better.
This.
Really? 4-3-3 with Grealish in one of the front 3 positions actually had us on a nice little run before we hit the Man. City-Liverpool double trouble games.
I prefer it to early in the season when we had two out and out wingers and Grealish in the middle three and we looked very unbalanced at both ends.
My worry is in terms of major changes DS will go back to this and Sheffield United will expose the gaps between defence and midfield quite easily.
It's not really a 433 anyway, El Ghazi/Trez tend to stay fairly wide on the right but Grealish is tucked in somewhere between a left winger and a 10. The change I'd make is to get the right winger doing the same. If it's Jota of Trez I'd want them on the ball and invovled in the build-up, if it's AEG I'd be getting him pushing into the box a lot more.
It all relies on us retaining possession better though, that's where we're losing games, we let teams recycle the ball far too easily and it means we get trapped in our own half and that's when Wesley looks terrible because he can't hold the ball up long enough to get people around him.
It also requires the midfield 3 to have some discipline and why I think that SJM is not necessarily suited to the role at this level.
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I know that Wesley cost £20m or whatever, but Kodj wasn't exactly a snip at £12m either, and he's proved in the past that he's a much better goal scorer and all round footballer than Wesley.
That past was some time ago unfortunately. That ankle injury finished him really. Thought he was really poor in the championship in the last two seasons, particularly when he played down the middle but also his application out wide was dire (West Brom comes to mind).
At this stage, the kit man could be a better option than Wes so I'm not sure how Kodjia isn't even getting a chance. But he isn't remotely good enough to be a starting option in the prem. I'd have some hope for Davis and unfortunately he got injured at the wrong time.
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This 4 3 3 is really hindering us. We're carrying AEG and Trez. Leicester's diamond system ironically enough looks like it would suit us so much better.
This.
Really? 4-3-3 with Grealish in one of the front 3 positions actually had us on a nice little run before we hit the Man. City-Liverpool double trouble games.
I prefer it to early in the season when we had two out and out wingers and Grealish in the middle three and we looked very unbalanced at both ends.
My worry is in terms of major changes DS will go back to this and Sheffield United will expose the gaps between defence and midfield quite easily.
It's not really a 433 anyway, El Ghazi/Trez tend to stay fairly wide on the right but Grealish is tucked in somewhere between a left winger and a 10. The change I'd make is to get the right winger doing the same. If it's Jota of Trez I'd want them on the ball and invovled in the build-up, if it's AEG I'd be getting him pushing into the box a lot more.
It all relies on us retaining possession better though, that's where we're losing games, we let teams recycle the ball far too easily and it means we get trapped in our own half and that's when Wesley looks terrible because he can't hold the ball up long enough to get people around him.
It also requires the midfield 3 to have some discipline and why I think that SJM is not necessarily suited to the role at this level.
I'd probably change the midfield around a touch and play both Luiz and Nakamba as holding players, Nakamba with the remit of breaking up play and Luiz as a deep play maker looking to move the ball a bit quicker. That way McGinn can be the one who break forward and gets to the edge of the box. We need to work on his timing though so he's arriving late. At the moment he's playing with his back to goal too often, which is a big part of why he's not been as effective.
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I know that Wesley cost £20m or whatever, but Kodj wasn't exactly a snip at £12m either, and he's proved in the past that he's a much better goal scorer and all round footballer than Wesley.
Against Championship defenders so difficult to make an informed comparison. We do need a different option but I don’t think he’s it.
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There full backs were excellent, especially Pereira. They knew exactly when to go and when to stay. I like both Guilbert and Targett but they dont have the same disciplined approach.
Chilwell was the standout for me. I was sat on his side in the North Stand and he just kept motoring up and down that flank until he went off. He blew past Elmo on a number of occasions and his delivery into the box was very good.
With him and Alexander-Arnold on the other side, England look pretty strong in the full-back area.
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This 4 3 3 is really hindering us. We're carrying AEG and Trez. Leicester's diamond system ironically enough looks like it would suit us so much better.
This.
Really? 4-3-3 with Grealish in one of the front 3 positions actually had us on a nice little run before we hit the Man. City-Liverpool double trouble games.
I prefer it to early in the season when we had two out and out wingers and Grealish in the middle three and we looked very unbalanced at both ends.
My worry is in terms of major changes DS will go back to this and Sheffield United will expose the gaps between defence and midfield quite easily.
It's not really a 433 anyway, El Ghazi/Trez tend to stay fairly wide on the right but Grealish is tucked in somewhere between a left winger and a 10. The change I'd make is to get the right winger doing the same. If it's Jota of Trez I'd want them on the ball and invovled in the build-up, if it's AEG I'd be getting him pushing into the box a lot more.
It all relies on us retaining possession better though, that's where we're losing games, we let teams recycle the ball far too easily and it means we get trapped in our own half and that's when Wesley looks terrible because he can't hold the ball up long enough to get people around him.
It also requires the midfield 3 to have some discipline and why I think that SJM is not necessarily suited to the role at this level.
I'd probably change the midfield around a touch and play both Luiz and Nakamba as holding players, Nakamba with the remit of breaking up play and Luiz as a deep play maker looking to move the ball a bit quicker. That way McGinn can be the one who break forward and gets to the edge of the box. We need to work on his timing though so he's arriving late. At the moment he's playing with his back to goal too often, which is a big part of why he's not been as effective.
agree, but that is a change of system and Smith seems stuck on a flat 3 across the middle.
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Still pretty confident. We need to be more conservative against the top 8 or so teams but our record against the poorer sides should see us alright
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There full backs were excellent, especially Pereira. They knew exactly when to go and when to stay. I like both Guilbert and Targett but they dont have the same disciplined approach.
Chilwell was the standout for me. I was sat on his side in the North Stand and he just kept motoring up and down that flank until he went off. He blew past Elmo on a number of occasions and his delivery into the box was very good.
With him and Alexander-Arnold on the other side, England look pretty strong in the full-back area.
Poor selection by Smith. No way Elmo should start ahead of Guilbert.
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Vardy has proven time & again he can leave many defences bamboozled, with the gift of hindsight I would have sacrificed Luiz from the starting line-up and would have had Guilbert man-marking Vardy throughout the game, (leaving the other 4 defenders as they were).
A rigid formation only works when you are one of the top teams in the division.
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We're never going to win a game conceding 26 shots at goal.
Sometimes our midfield looks empty, and the defence worries me with a mish mash of zonal and man marking, which is a pet hate of mine.
Mings, who likes to be spare from corners and free kicks, alarmingly does not attack the ball, which surely he is supposed to do.
Next five will decide if we're in a shitfight until the end of the season or can look towards the sunny uplands of mid-table.
Personally, I would change it a bit to three at the back, we have a good lefty (Hause), a good spare (Mings) and a good righty (Engels), allowing our full backs Guilbert and Targett to use the width and make us more solid when we don't have the ball.
It would also allow us to play two up top, I doubt very much this will happen.
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Personally, I would change it a bit to three at the back, we have a good lefty (Hause), a good spare (Mings) and a good righty (Engels), allowing our full backs Guilbert and Targett to use the width and make us more solid when we don't have the ball. It would also allow us to play two up top, I doubt very much this will happen.
You're right it probably won't, but who would your three in midfield be?
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We're never going to win a game conceding 26 shots at goal.
Sometimes our midfield looks empty, and the defence worries me with a mish mash of zonal and man marking, which is a pet hate of mine.
Mings, who likes to be spare from corners and free kicks, alarmingly does not attack the ball, which surely he is supposed to do.
Next five will decide if we're in a shitfight until the end of the season or can look towards the sunny uplands of mid-table.
Personally, I would change it a bit to three at the back, we have a good lefty (Hause), a good spare (Mings) and a good righty (Engels), allowing our full backs Guilbert and Targett to use the width and make us more solid when we don't have the ball.
It would also allow us to play two up top, I doubt very much this will happen.
Sky have an article today that refers mainly to Arsenal but does making passing reference that only Norwich and us allow more shots on goal than Arsenal. We urgently need to change tactically to stop that continuing, otherwise we will be going down with Norwich. Arsenal at least have the forwards to keep them out of trouble, we don't.
I'm not usually a fan of three at the back but it could be worth trying at Sheff Utd to match them. Depending on how fit Mings is I guess, as Konsa urgently needs to come out I think. Alternatively, Hause to come in at left back to improve the balance of the defence physically with Targett dropping out. No matter what combination we try in midfield we still look too open. Just think Hause's presence can help us a lot at set piece time alone.
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I’d agree on Hause but if Mings isn’t fit as left CB in my view. If Mings is fit then Targett hasnt done enough to keep the shirt.
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We're never going to win a game conceding 26 shots at goal.
Sometimes our midfield looks empty, and the defence worries me with a mish mash of zonal and man marking, which is a pet hate of mine.
Mings, who likes to be spare from corners and free kicks, alarmingly does not attack the ball, which surely he is supposed to do.
Next five will decide if we're in a shitfight until the end of the season or can look towards the sunny uplands of mid-table.
Personally, I would change it a bit to three at the back, we have a good lefty (Hause), a good spare (Mings) and a good righty (Engels), allowing our full backs Guilbert and Targett to use the width and make us more solid when we don't have the ball.
It would also allow us to play two up top, I doubt very much this will happen.
Sky have an article today that refers mainly to Arsenal but does making passing reference that only Norwich and us allow more shots on goal than Arsenal. We urgently need to change tactically to stop that continuing, otherwise we will be going down with Norwich. Arsenal at least have the forwards to keep them out of trouble, we don't.
I'm not usually a fan of three at the back but it could be worth trying at Sheff Utd to match them. Depending on how fit Mings is I guess, as Konsa urgently needs to come out I think. Alternatively, Hause to come in at left back to improve the balance of the defence physically with Targett dropping out. No matter what combination we try in midfield we still look too open. Just think Hause's presence can help us a lot at set piece time alone.
All of this is why all the focus on blaming Wesley and calling for a replacement in January is ignoring the real problem. As I said earlier, we need to hold onto the ball better and not let clubs have 10-15minute spells where they get 7-8 attempts in and we barely cross halfway.
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We're never going to win a game conceding 26 shots at goal.
Sometimes our midfield looks empty, and the defence worries me with a mish mash of zonal and man marking, which is a pet hate of mine.
Mings, who likes to be spare from corners and free kicks, alarmingly does not attack the ball, which surely he is supposed to do.
Next five will decide if we're in a shitfight until the end of the season or can look towards the sunny uplands of mid-table.
Personally, I would change it a bit to three at the back, we have a good lefty (Hause), a good spare (Mings) and a good righty (Engels), allowing our full backs Guilbert and Targett to use the width and make us more solid when we don't have the ball.
It would also allow us to play two up top, I doubt very much this will happen.
Sky have an article today that refers mainly to Arsenal but does making passing reference that only Norwich and us allow more shots on goal than Arsenal. We urgently need to change tactically to stop that continuing, otherwise we will be going down with Norwich. Arsenal at least have the forwards to keep them out of trouble, we don't.
I'm not usually a fan of three at the back but it could be worth trying at Sheff Utd to match them. Depending on how fit Mings is I guess, as Konsa urgently needs to come out I think. Alternatively, Hause to come in at left back to improve the balance of the defence physically with Targett dropping out. No matter what combination we try in midfield we still look too open. Just think Hause's presence can help us a lot at set piece time alone.
All of this is why all the focus on blaming Wesley and calling for a replacement in January is ignoring the real problem. As I said earlier, we need to hold onto the ball better and not let clubs have 10-15minute spells where they get 7-8 attempts in and we barely cross halfway.
Part of holding the ball better is to have a functioning number 9, I know it’s not just down to him. The overall pattern of play seems to allow opposing teams to get at our back 4 very easily.
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If we had a decent number 9, we could try a diamond formation, like:
Heaton
Guilbert Engels Mings Targett
Nakamba
McGinn Luiz
Jack
El Ghazi/Trez Anybodybutwesley
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We're never going to win a game conceding 26 shots at goal.
Sometimes our midfield looks empty, and the defence worries me with a mish mash of zonal and man marking, which is a pet hate of mine.
Mings, who likes to be spare from corners and free kicks, alarmingly does not attack the ball, which surely he is supposed to do.
Next five will decide if we're in a shitfight until the end of the season or can look towards the sunny uplands of mid-table.
Personally, I would change it a bit to three at the back, we have a good lefty (Hause), a good spare (Mings) and a good righty (Engels), allowing our full backs Guilbert and Targett to use the width and make us more solid when we don't have the ball.
It would also allow us to play two up top, I doubt very much this will happen.
Sky have an article today that refers mainly to Arsenal but does making passing reference that only Norwich and us allow more shots on goal than Arsenal. We urgently need to change tactically to stop that continuing, otherwise we will be going down with Norwich. Arsenal at least have the forwards to keep them out of trouble, we don't.
I'm not usually a fan of three at the back but it could be worth trying at Sheff Utd to match them. Depending on how fit Mings is I guess, as Konsa urgently needs to come out I think. Alternatively, Hause to come in at left back to improve the balance of the defence physically with Targett dropping out. No matter what combination we try in midfield we still look too open. Just think Hause's presence can help us a lot at set piece time alone.
All of this is why all the focus on blaming Wesley and calling for a replacement in January is ignoring the real problem. As I said earlier, we need to hold onto the ball better and not let clubs have 10-15minute spells where they get 7-8 attempts in and we barely cross halfway.
Part of holding the ball better is to have a functioning number 9, I know it’s not just down to him. The overall pattern of play seems to allow opposing teams to get at our back 4 very easily.
Possibly but all too often his bad performances come when we're camped in our own half and he's got 3-4 defenders around him and has to wait for support. When we get players around him and control the tempo for a while we look a far better side and he looks a much better player, the trick is finding ways to do it against good sides.
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Leicester's midfield diamond ripped us to shreds by flooding the midfield, Iheanacho dropping off and the full backs pushing up to totally overwhelm our quite static three in the middle and the slightly muddled up positioning of the wingers and full backs. We have the personnel to play a similar system, Jack naturally in the number ten position, Nakamba holding and Doug and Conor the link (John really needs a break right now). We'd need to bring back Fred obviously, and I'd like to see Trez in the second striker role with either Wes or Davis, who at least deserves a go in that pure holding up role with another forward there to relieve him off the sole goalscoring burden.
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Leicester's midfield diamond ripped us to shreds by flooding the midfield, Iheanacho dropping off and the full backs pushing up to totally overwhelm our quite static three in the middle and the slightly muddled up positioning of the wingers and full backs. We have the personnel to play a similar system, Jack naturally in the number ten position, Nakamba holding and Doug and Conor the link (John really needs a break right now). We'd need to bring back Fred obviously, and I'd like to see Trez in the second striker role with either Wes or Davis, who at least deserves a go in that pure holding up role with another forward there to relieve him off the sole goalscoring burden.
i thought Davis did OK when he came on at City. I’d be tempted to give him a run in the next few games. I’ve defended Wesley up til now, but I’m starting to agree with the view that perhaps he may not be up to the required standard. I do like him, but it’s not really clicked yet for him and he seems to have gone backwards in his progress the last few games. Maybe give Davis a run for a bit through the Xmas / New Years fixtures?
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Last 10 games.
Whqt more would you reasonably expect us to have won?
(https://i.ibb.co/ZmzBzgR/FB-IMG-1575964471668.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZmzBzgR)
free image hosts (https://imgbb.com/)
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Last 10 games.
Whqt more would you reasonably expect us to have won?
(https://i.ibb.co/ZmzBzgR/FB-IMG-1575964471668.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZmzBzgR)
free image hosts (https://imgbb.com/)
Here's the problem. We had some poor results before this run of games, which other clubs near us have also had, but with one caveat - teams like Newcastle have also got some results from 'unreasonable' sources, balancing out defeats like the one against us.
There've been a lot of excuses this season - losing to Bournemouth at home because we weren't gelled yet as a squad, losing points late against Spurs and Arsenal because hey, they're great teams (who then go on to be terrible against everyone else), all that kind of stuff. Sooner or later the excuses run out, and if you're losing against most of the other teams it's because they're currently better than you. We need to improve, and soon.
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I think we should be aiming to get something at Bramall Lane. Though they are a form team.
We really need to pick up more points over the next run of games though. In the reverse fixtures to those 10 I'd hope we pick up a point or two in the home games.
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Yes, the so-called "free hits" are proving anything but. We need to improve our record against the moneyed elite, especially with most of them at Villa Park in the second half of the season. I'll be annoyed if wr don't pick up any points from very average looking Arsenal and Tottenham sides, and we are due a win against Man U... it'll be a decade on Thursday.
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So in summary we have several injured players, others that look totally drained of energy, a centre forward who doesn’t remotely resemble a professional footballer, a well meaning manager who’s lack of PL experience is being exposed match by match and we’re on the brink of dropping into the bottom three.
Worried? Erm...yeah.
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Talking to a few Evertonian mates over the last few days and I asked what the difference was against Chelsea …... they all mentioned the word passion - new manager bounce maybe, but Ferguson had them up for the game. This is what I expect from Smith, especially this weekend when they will be up against a team ready to battle …… having said that if we are already showing signs of fatigue I think we will be found out even more in the coming weeks - fitter teams will just be able to pick us off.
Looking at 3 poorer/weaker teams than us right now is proving evermore difficult ….. sort it out Villa
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Yes, the so-called "free hits" are proving anything but. We need to improve our record against the moneyed elite, especially with most of them at Villa Park in the second half of the season. I'll be annoyed if wr don't pick up any points from very average looking Arsenal and Tottenham sides, and we are due a win against Man U... it'll be a decade on Thursday.
Arsenal perhaps but they showed last night that they can still be dangerous, if they sort their defence out there’s a good team there. I think Spurs have turned a corner and will be back pushing for a top 6 place, they have underperformed so far but putting five past Burnley should boost their confidence. They’re not the sort of games that will decide our season it is making sure we pick up the points against other teams in the bottom half of the league and we play a lot of them over the next few weeks.
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Talking to a few Evertonian mates over the last few days and I asked what the difference was against Chelsea …... they all mentioned the word passion - new manager bounce maybe, but Ferguson had them up for the game. This is what I expect from Smith, especially this weekend when they will be up against a team ready to battle …… having said that if we are already showing signs of fatigue I think we will be found out even more in the coming weeks - fitter teams will just be able to pick us off.
Looking at 3 poorer/weaker teams than us right now is proving evermore difficult ….. sort it out Villa
That approach worked for them at the weekend because I think it took Chelsea by surprise, it’s not a trick that they can repeat very often. They probably have enough to stay clear of trouble but given that they have spent near to half a billion under this owner they really should have a lot more to show for it.
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Starting to feel a bit uneasy now ......must win games looming and we all know how we do in those ;)
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While our current run is depressing, I’m filled with rage about all of the dropped points earlier in the season. There are so many examples, the Arsenal game being especially aggravating. I’d hoped it wouldn’t come back to bite us, and of course here we are.
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While our current run is depressing, I’m filled with rage about all of the dropped points earlier in the season. There are so many examples, the Arsenal game being especially aggravating. I’d hoped it wouldn’t come back to bite us, and of course here we are.
At least in the early art of the season we looked like we had a plan, kept to it and generally played well. I miss those days.
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In answer to the question in the thread title, yes. Very.
Our best players are starting to struggle. Our worst are not good enough (including our £22m “striker”).
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While our current run is depressing, I’m filled with rage about all of the dropped points earlier in the season. There are so many examples, the Arsenal game being especially aggravating. I’d hoped it wouldn’t come back to bite us, and of course here we are.
Yes we messed up badly in the first few weeks. Not beating ten men West Ham, leading twice v Burnley at home and also the headless chicken opening 10 minutes v Bournemouth which cost us at least a point.
Worry for me is it's all gone flat very quickly and the goals are drying up so not a good combination at all for the huge games coming up in next two weeks.
Given our options up front it's a minor miracle we've scored as many as we've had although that is starting to balance up.
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While our current run is depressing, I’m filled with rage about all of the dropped points earlier in the season. There are so many examples, the Arsenal game being especially aggravating. I’d hoped it wouldn’t come back to bite us, and of course here we are.
Couldn’t agree more and Smith was the major reason why we threw those points away and in terms of game management nothing has changed.
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Lack of fight worries me. A basic requirement in this League. Also, lack of fitness is a major concern.
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No
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I honestly think the players have sussed Wes out as a dud and the whole team is suffering. No hold up play leads to knackered legs on 70mins.
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Yes, the so-called "free hits" are proving anything but. We need to improve our record against the moneyed elite, especially with most of them at Villa Park in the second half of the season. I'll be annoyed if wr don't pick up any points from very average looking Arsenal and Tottenham sides, and we are due a win against Man U... it'll be a decade on Thursday.
Arsenal perhaps but they showed last night that they can still be dangerous, if they sort their defence out there’s a good team there. I think Spurs have turned a corner and will be back pushing for a top 6 place, they have underperformed so far but putting five past Burnley should boost their confidence. They’re not the sort of games that will decide our season it is making sure we pick up the points against other teams in the bottom half of the league and we play a lot of them over the next few weeks.
Surely we could do something against Chelsea at home? They've just lost to a Bournemouth team with about 12 players out. Also lost to West Ham and Everton on bad runs. Our meek performance down there dosen't look too clever now.
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Anyway another week outside the bottom 3 so that's an important thing to cling onto. We're poor but not poor enough to fall into relegation zone yet.
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No. We’re still out the bottom 3 with two struggling teams coming up at home. We could be 4-6 points clear of the bottom 3 come the half way stage. I don’t care what anybody says, stopping up has always and will always be the goal for this season and so far we are on track to do that.
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The next 3 games define our season.
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9 points from the next 3 is both realistic and essential.
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Just had a look at Southampton's run after next weekend's game. Up to 1st Feb they have:
Chelsea away
Palace home
Spurs home
Leicester away
Wolves home
Palace away
Liverpool away
O.k a guarenteed 3 points at Chelsea due to Lampard desperately trying to relegate us but reality is we win next week or at worst not lose and there's a good chance we could build up a decent points buffer over 18th by end of January.
Not going to go too negatively unless we come out next weekend and play dismally.
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You’re right soccer. On paper were in an ok place, in with a chance heading into January when we will surely buy the players needed to plug gaping holes in the team.
It’s the nature of the last few results I’m worried about - lack of fight, lack of intelligence. Everyone said Leicester are the form team, always going to be a hard game etc. But look at their result today at home. Chelsea and today were also abysmal.
We just have that whiff about us.
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Right now I don’t trust these players to beat anyone, players have off days, moments, but bloody hell we’ve gone into our shells and Smith and his coaches seem unable to coach them out of them. Nakamba for example, ran the show against Brighton, he’s been pish ever since, McGinn, where do you start, Luiz has been bobbins.
We need a win Tuesday, any kind will do followed up with an assured victory on Saturday, nothing else will do.
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The next 3 games define our season.
December 21st to January 21st will define our season. Southampton (H), Norwich (H), Watford (A), Burnley (A), Man City (H), Brighton (A), Watford (H)
Apart from Man City we couldn't hope for a better run of fixtures to try to climb the table.
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Right now I don’t trust these players to beat anyone, players have off days, moments, but bloody hell we’ve gone into our shells and Smith and his coaches seem unable to coach them out of them. Nakamba for example, ran the show against Brighton, he’s been pish ever since, McGinn, where do you start, Luiz has been bobbins.
We need a win Tuesday, any kind will do followed up with an assured victory on Saturday, nothing else will do.
Consistency is the issue with the players. All our players are good on their day and can change games but everyone of them including grealish has off games quite regularly and quite a few of them like AEG are all or nothing.
We’ve only had a couple games where everyone clicked, Everton and Norwich.
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Right now I don’t trust these players to beat anyone, players have off days, moments, but bloody hell we’ve gone into our shells and Smith and his coaches seem unable to coach them out of them. Nakamba for example, ran the show against Brighton, he’s been pish ever since, McGinn, where do you start, Luiz has been bobbins.
We need a win Tuesday, any kind will do followed up with an assured victory on Saturday, nothing else will do.
Consistency is the issue with the players. All our players are good on their day and can change games but everyone of them including grealish has off games quite regularly and quite a few of them like AEG are all or nothing.
We’ve only had a couple games where everyone clicked, Everton and Norwich.
Our inconsistency isn't just a game to game thing. We are too inconsistent during games too.
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It's worth remembering many of these players have not played at this level before or very limited experience. We may have signed some of them for big money but bang average players go for at least 15m these days as Targett is showing. Guy couldn't even get in a poor Southampton team regularly in last two seasons.
Hause was a back up CB at Wolves who didn't play when they went up, Lansbury hardly played in prem at other clubs and settled in championship.
We have signed some good players but most were just punts from abroad or lower end here. Now if we'd signed 4-5 with the top level experience that Heaton does I'd be much more disappointed as the expectation would be greater then. Like it was in the MON days when we had an 11 full of solid internationals.
This is why January is crucial to me. Not just to stay up but to build for the next 18 months. We need to up our transfer sights a little imo and go after proven international class players.
Wolves signed Neves, Moutinho and Raul Jimenez and they are thriving at prem level and in europa with those three the heartbeat once they cross the halfway line.
It's surely not too much to ask to sign players of that standard?
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I honestly think the players have sussed Wes out as a dud and the whole team is suffering. No hold up play leads to knackered legs on 70mins.
Perleeeeeaase. Behave.
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It's worth remembering many of these players have not played at this level before or very limited experience. We may have signed some of them for big money but bang average players go for at least 15m these days as Targett is showing. Guy couldn't even get in a poor Southampton team regularly in last two seasons.
Hause was a back up CB at Wolves who didn't play when they went up, Lansbury hardly played in prem at other clubs and settled in championship.
We have signed some good players but most were just punts from abroad or lower end here. Now if we'd signed 4-5 with the top level experience that Heaton does I'd be much more disappointed as the expectation would be greater then. Like it was in the MON days when we had an 11 full of solid internationals.
This is why January is crucial to me. Not just to stay up but to build for the next 18 months. We need to up our transfer sights a little imo and go after proven international class players.
Wolves signed Neves, Moutinho and Raul Jimenez and they are thriving at prem level and in europa with those three the heartbeat once they cross the halfway line.
It's surely not too much to ask to sign players of that standard?
How many of the Sheff Utd players have played at this level? Has the manager managed at this level? They seem to be adjusting very well despite their lack of PL experience.
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It's worth remembering many of these players have not played at this level before or very limited experience. We may have signed some of them for big money but bang average players go for at least 15m these days as Targett is showing. Guy couldn't even get in a poor Southampton team regularly in last two seasons.
Hause was a back up CB at Wolves who didn't play when they went up, Lansbury hardly played in prem at other clubs and settled in championship.
We have signed some good players but most were just punts from abroad or lower end here. Now if we'd signed 4-5 with the top level experience that Heaton does I'd be much more disappointed as the expectation would be greater then. Like it was in the MON days when we had an 11 full of solid internationals.
This is why January is crucial to me. Not just to stay up but to build for the next 18 months. We need to up our transfer sights a little imo and go after proven international class players.
Wolves signed Neves, Moutinho and Raul Jimenez and they are thriving at prem level and in europa with those three the heartbeat once they cross the halfway line.
It's surely not too much to ask to sign players of that standard?
Absolutely spot on. Some real quality and experience on top of what we have is really needed. We are not too bad and in a rut but we seriously need something more.
I’m still convinced Smith can get us out of trouble. Too many players out of form but Awe don’t have the squad to mix it up.
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Three wins on the bounce over Xmas would do us a world of good. I am concerned it's looking like 3 out of 4 currently. Long way to go of course.
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It's worth remembering many of these players have not played at this level before or very limited experience. We may have signed some of them for big money but bang average players go for at least 15m these days as Targett is showing. Guy couldn't even get in a poor Southampton team regularly in last two seasons.
Hause was a back up CB at Wolves who didn't play when they went up, Lansbury hardly played in prem at other clubs and settled in championship.
We have signed some good players but most were just punts from abroad or lower end here. Now if we'd signed 4-5 with the top level experience that Heaton does I'd be much more disappointed as the expectation would be greater then. Like it was in the MON days when we had an 11 full of solid internationals.
This is why January is crucial to me. Not just to stay up but to build for the next 18 months. We need to up our transfer sights a little imo and go after proven international class players.
Wolves signed Neves, Moutinho and Raul Jimenez and they are thriving at prem level and in europa with those three the heartbeat once they cross the halfway line.
It's surely not too much to ask to sign players of that standard?
How many of the Sheff Utd players have played at this level? Has the manager managed at this level? They seem to be adjusting very well despite their lack of PL experience.
Oh they're performing brilliantly but there is always one outlier team every season and they are it. The norm though is for promoted teams to struggle, Norwich finished what 20 points ahead of us but didn't add much and they've struggled more than we have.
This time last week we were only 4 points behind Sheffield United so it wasn't like they were miles ahead of us until last two games.
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It's worth remembering many of these players have not played at this level before or very limited experience. We may have signed some of them for big money but bang average players go for at least 15m these days as Targett is showing. Guy couldn't even get in a poor Southampton team regularly in last two seasons.
Hause was a back up CB at Wolves who didn't play when they went up, Lansbury hardly played in prem at other clubs and settled in championship.
We have signed some good players but most were just punts from abroad or lower end here. Now if we'd signed 4-5 with the top level experience that Heaton does I'd be much more disappointed as the expectation would be greater then. Like it was in the MON days when we had an 11 full of solid internationals.
This is why January is crucial to me. Not just to stay up but to build for the next 18 months. We need to up our transfer sights a little imo and go after proven international class players.
Wolves signed Neves, Moutinho and Raul Jimenez and they are thriving at prem level and in europa with those three the heartbeat once they cross the halfway line.
It's surely not too much to ask to sign players of that standard?
Not easy to recruit Prem quality players when you are sitting just above the relegation zone.
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You can recruit anyone you want when you’ve got owners as rich as ours.
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So explain why the purchase of Maupay was sanctioned by Pitarch.
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You can recruit anyone you want when you’ve got owners as rich as ours.
I think there is a little bit more to it than that.
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Not easy to recruit Prem quality players when you are sitting just above the relegation zone.
No it isn't easy, but that's what we've got to do. No excuses.
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Sadly, the position we are likely to find ourselves in when the transfer window opens is just the position you don't want to be in when looking to attract quality players.
However, I would say that two strikers are an absolute must - and preferably two who might gel together up top. Ideally, one who is hungry to play and succeed at the highest level, and one who's been there and still has something to offer. I'm not saying these are the ones we should go for or might get, but one like Ollie Watkins of Brentford (ok, I know) and one like Charlie Austin, Glenn Murray or Dannie Ings. But a couple who between them might score 10-12 goals over the remaining fixtures and can even bring something out of Wesley. As it is, with only Wesley as an option up front, we are truly stuffed.
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You can recruit anyone you want when you’ve got owners as rich as ours.
I think there is a little bit more to it than that.
Outside a few elite teams and world class players, I really don’t think it matters that much. If they’re in the right league and they’re paid enough, good players will come and play for us.
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Sheffield United came into the top flight with two good years of stability and momentum behind them. We came into the top flight with a few months of stability and momentum.
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Wilder is also a much better manager than Smith.
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Sheff Utd have spent 87p to go from midtable in division 3 to top 5 in the PL in just over 3 years.
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Sheff Utd have spent 87p to go from midtable in division 3 to top 5 in the PL in just over 3 years.
Yes but they spent it well.
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It's worth remembering many of these players have not played at this level before or very limited experience. We may have signed some of them for big money but bang average players go for at least 15m these days as Targett is showing. Guy couldn't even get in a poor Southampton team regularly in last two seasons.
Hause was a back up CB at Wolves who didn't play when they went up, Lansbury hardly played in prem at other clubs and settled in championship.
We have signed some good players but most were just punts from abroad or lower end here. Now if we'd signed 4-5 with the top level experience that Heaton does I'd be much more disappointed as the expectation would be greater then. Like it was in the MON days when we had an 11 full of solid internationals.
This is why January is crucial to me. Not just to stay up but to build for the next 18 months. We need to up our transfer sights a little imo and go after proven international class players.
Wolves signed Neves, Moutinho and Raul Jimenez and they are thriving at prem level and in europa with those three the heartbeat once they cross the halfway line.
It's surely not too much to ask to sign players of that standard?
Not easy to recruit Prem quality players when you are sitting just above the relegation zone.
We signed Darren Bent when we were bottom 3 weren't we? Also signed Carew when we were in bottom half in 2007. Robbie Keane aswell in 2012 when we were probably floating around 12th given it was the Mcleish year.
Three international quality forwards who helped improved us when they came in so that's the standard we should be looking at.
People are saying we're going to be challenging for europe in a year or two. We need to raise the bar in signings if we're really going to do that.
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Bent was the one that came to mind.
Surely if we are looking to stay up this year then go crazy next year using the ridiculous resources at our disposal we aren't a hard sell.
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The more I think the more I can’t decide where the real issue is. Is Wesley shit or unsupported? Is smith letting the players down or are they letting him down? Maybe it’s a bit of everything which is the really worrying thing.
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Wes simply isn't good enough to start week in week out. I'm convinced at every other club he'd be a back up. He's simply not better than likes of Ings, Deeney, Pukki so wouldn't be a starter at those clubs.
He reminds me of Kozak. Big and gangly and can poach a few goals but overall not good enough to be a regular starter. Kozak started a few when Benteke picked up injuries but was largely a squad striker before his unfortunate injury and that's what Wesley should've been but we messed up the decision on Maupay and then didn't pursue a replacement.
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Even when we were playing ok, Wes was still shit. He really is hopeless.
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No.
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After watching yesterday's game, a bit more than I was a few weeks ago.
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All the teams at the bottom appear to be playing better than us, the team seems to have lost its spirit and togetherness, Jack may well be looking to next season already.
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No
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We are on the brink now. We have absolutely squeezed the pips out of our 5 goals against Norwich to stay out of bottom 3. We need MINIMUM 4 points from our next two games otherwise we will be in the horrific dog fight for the rest of the season.
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17th will do for me. I think we will scrape 16th.
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It's a sobering thought that we won't even be able to scrape 20 points by the halfway point.
However, it will be just the halfway point and any talk of being 'on the brink' is a bit premature.
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Everton win today and the bottom 4 getting cut a drift a little ..thats a worry as then turns into a mini league to stay up.
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It's a sobering thought that we won't even be able to scrape 20 points by the halfway point.
However, it will be just the halfway point and any talk of being 'on the brink' is a bit premature.
We are on the brink of whether we will be stuck in the mire all season or have it a little easier knocking around 15th to 12th.
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It's a sobering thought that we won't even be able to scrape 20 points by the halfway point.
However, it will be just the halfway point and any talk of being 'on the brink' is a bit premature.
If we beat Saints and Norwich at home then we'll be on 21 points after 19 games.
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In a word, yes. Haven't been worried up to now, but the next three league matches define our season, so it's hard not to be. All of them are six-pointers, and we've put ourselves in a position where we now can't afford to lose any of them really.
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My biggest concern right now is we're not even competing. Add to that, we look disjointed, a group of players brought in for their development rather than current ability. We overpaid massively in the summer on some players, I recall Brugge fans valuing Wesley at €7m and Saints fans thought we gave the £10m more than Targett was worth.
What has worried me most of this season is none of our front three (Wesley, El Ghazi and Trez) are anywhere near good enough and don't look like they ever will be. It's little wonder our midfield looks knackered when they're carrying them week after week.
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It's a sobering thought that we won't even be able to scrape 20 points by the halfway point.
However, it will be just the halfway point and any talk of being 'on the brink' is a bit premature.
If we beat Saints and Norwich at home then we'll be on 21 points after 19 games.
And that is great, however there are worrying signs, 10 defeats is poor, only my opinion
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It's a sobering thought that we won't even be able to scrape 20 points by the halfway point.
However, it will be just the halfway point and any talk of being 'on the brink' is a bit premature.
If we beat Saints and Norwich at home then we'll be on 21 points after 19 games.
Of course yes, thanks for the correction.
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More and more worried. We're a mess and the odd flash apart, have been since that out-of-the-blue wowzer at Norwich City.
It's as if Dean is picking Wes to spite Jesus for buying such a pile of old shite.
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Fairly worried, as we seem to be going in to a crunch time of the season a bit out of form and low on confidence, also Mings not being there to organise defence and lead the team and be vocal is a miss.
Like 99% of us I'm not impressed with Wesley but in all honesty Dean is probably picking him in the hope he somehow improves as we don't have a better alternative. Very rare teams sign someone early in Jan too, so I think we will have played 25 games or so before we have genuine competition up there.
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How much influence does DS have over who we buy who calls the shots?
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Pitarch.
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How much influence does DS have over who we buy who calls the shots?
We signed two over the summer from Brentford so he certainly signed those two.
This reminds me of Sherwood waxing lyrical when we signed likes of Ayew and Gana and then two months later it was "nothing to do with me guv."
I do have sympathy with DS though if he really wanted Maupay but got overruled and then had Wes inflicted onto him.
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Still not worrying.
Pissed off after Saturday? Yes.
But we've just had the sort of run of games that would have any team in difficulties.
We really mustn't give in. There were always going to be some torrid spells and results, let's give the first team a break, let the reserves play against Liverpool and take it from there.
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Errr...
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Started to get worried now..
I'm starting to have doubts about Smith.
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Yes
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Officially worried now.
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We are going down.
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I think he's maybe avoided a rough ride in recent weeks because of the fact he's a Villa fan, if he wasn't I think people would have turned quicker - regardless of him getting us up.
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This first half is like it was under Remi Garde. it's lifeless, no fight, no leadership, no organisation, basics all wrong - the players just don't seem to be as interested as they was a few months ago. I'm worried for Smith, there's no plan B.
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Big half time talk.
I’ve been squarely in the not worried camp but that first half was horrific.
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Extremely worried now. Wouldn't mind if we were losing playing well. Smith needs a fucking idea fast, but appears to have zero.
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It will all be fine ........Dean is one of us so he can't fail :(
The new contract or pay rise, whatever it was, seems to have been somewhat premature
It would seem that neither the club nor this coach were ready for the step up
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We wern't ready for promotion not fit enough not good enough manager not good enough.
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As it stands there are not three teams worse than us in this league
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I agree with you, TV.
It's very worrying.
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100%. That first half had relegated stamped all over it.
If we don't even look like turning this around in the second half, then we're right in the shit.
I'm worried for Boxing Day now and we're only at HT here!
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Now worried.
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Worth remembering we have no youth forcing their way into the team. As per usual
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I'm now officially worried. Abysmal today.
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We're on board the relegation express, heading for a cliff. It's going to take a miracle to save this.
Absolutely garbage today from start to finish. Same mistakes week in, week out.
Same not-working formation and almost the same line up every week, regardless.
Leaves it way too late to make changes, never changes our set up to counter the opposition and the way they play. Relies on players who are clearly not delivering.
Just rubbish and getting worse.
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Very worried we won't be finishing top 4.
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Well that's the 'we've only played top sides recently' excuse blown away. Today we went from possible relegation to probable relegation.
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As good as down.
Can’t see a way back unless the owners have the balls to pull the trigger asap.
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I’m not worried anymore. I’m resigned.
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As good as down.
Can’t see a way back unless the owners have the balls to pull the trigger asap.
Two men worth over $7 billion probably don't care for this romantic chapter of Aston Villa's history. Making money is more important than "he's one of us". I'm sure they would rather protect their investment. I'm more concerned they won't buy a real striker in January.
Trez and Jota were poorly scouted wingers and Wesley is just an abomination. If they rely on what they have it's going to end poorly.
The 4-3-3 has to stop.
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Yep. We’re literally doing a Fulham 😢
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I’m worried we might finish bottom. Again.
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We're on board the relegation express, heading for a cliff. It's going to take a miracle to save this.
Absolutely garbage today from start to finish. Same mistakes week in, week out.
Same not-working formation and almost the same line up every week, regardless.
Leaves it way too late to make changes, never changes our set up to counter the opposition and the way they play. Relies on players who are clearly not delivering.
Just rubbish and getting worse.
Rather than a miracle we need to immediately replace this bang average, Championship level manager. Then we’ll have a chance.
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Who are we going to haul back into the bottom three? They all keep winning at least once every so often.
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Break out the orange dot.
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Yep, I'm officially worried now.
It's not the fact the players aren't good enough (though some clearly aren't), it's the fact that in both the Leicester game and today they look like they've given up.
A lack of ability sometimes ends in relegation. A lack of desire always does.
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why did we grant Smith a new contract?
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I still think we have good enough players. But sadly we need a new manager. Dean is out of his depth just like his favourite player. He's lost the players.
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3 points adrift now. Lots of games coming up and no sign that things are turning around.
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Season has totally changed because of today. I worry today's result will do untold damage in the coming months.
We've been very lucky not to drop into bottom 3 last two weeks. Now we're in the drop zone and now all of a sudden 3 points off 17th.
We're going into crucial matches without our spine as I doubt McGinn will be back anytime soon. As much as him and Mings have lost form in recent weeks we looked a championship 11 out there without either today.
Not good is it? The frustration is it didn't have to be like this. It's different to 2015 when the club really was on its knees at this level and begging to get relegated.
Maybe we came up too early. It's looking that way with the manager really struggling now to stop the poor form.
I have to say one wish for me whoever the manager is during January is we finally stop talking and go out and sign some proven players. Believe it or not but they do sign for clubs threatened by relegation.
People like to mock Wolves on here but they went out and signed Neves, Jimenez, Rui Patricio and Joao Moutinho. Top class internationals. Three were signed when they were newly promoted.
Wolves to me don't just talk about doing stuff, they go out and sign that and with them in knock outs of europa and not far off top 4 they're not too far off what we were in 08/09.
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Okay, worried now.
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Masssively worried.
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Who are we going to haul back into the bottom three? They all keep winning at least once every so often.
That's the main worry for me.
If Southampton sort out their home form they could well make 40 points as they're decent on the road.
Everton picking up points regularly and that will surely continue with Ancelotti. Probably same for West Ham aswell.
Likes of Newcastle, Palace and Burnley all in 25 point range although history shows a team around that figure can plummet. We did it one season under Lambert and Brighton did it last season.
Bournmouth look most vulnerable currently but they did beat Chelsea away just last week.
We could easily get another 20 points and still go down. Worry is on paper the second half of the season looks much harder than what we've had so far.
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The players have absolutely no confidence at all in what they are told to do week after week. When your best player is on the wing despite being one of the best central attacking midfielders in the country and we continue to persist with a CF who is useless, or at least useless being played as a target man then players are left frustrated. We cannot defend crosses. We don’t have any midfield cohesion or structure. We constantly punt long balls down the flanks and defences have wised up, dropped deeper and push our wingers wider and wider so they have no space. The manager has no flexibility at all in his approach. Picking Wes today was a fucking joke of a decision. I’m done with it.
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Some very poor signs on the pitch today. Players not wanting the ball, injuries, a lack of confidence, an intransigent manager. Not good signs at all. I’m sure our chief executive is also aware of it too. A decision of stick or twist will need to be made before the January window opens.
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The players have absolutely no confidence at all in what they are told to do week after week. When your best player is on the wing despite being one of the best central attacking midfielders in the country and we continue to persist with a CF who is useless, or at least useless being played as a target man then players are left frustrated. We cannot defend crosses. We don’t have any midfield cohesion or structure. We constantly punt long balls down the flanks and defences have wised up, dropped deeper and push our wingers wider and wider so they have no space. The manager has no flexibility at all in his approach. Picking Wes today was a fucking joke of a decision. I’m done with it.
Its that god damned 4-3-3. Your most central player has to be a defensive-minded holding midfielder. Which leaves Jack to create something from the outside. Its a sin to have him out there in a formation like this, with Wesley to play in to.
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I have been worried all season, today is the day it's hit us all in the face. We are currently not good enough.
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Yes
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I think the owners (unless something remarkable happens next month) are going to reap what they sowed. They showed a lot of sentimentality in keeping Smith despite his lack of PL pedigree. I’d have probably done the same thing tbh. As things stand we look odds on to sray in the bottom three for the duration.
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I have been worried all season, today is the day it's hit us all in the face. We are currently not good enough.
Same here.
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Beyond worried. We look like relegation dead certs at the moment.
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We need to grind out a couple of results and then buy a centre forward. And a winger. And depending on SJMs injury, a centre midfielder.
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3 big ticket signings in January are essential. If we don’t sign them we’re planning for life in the championship next season.
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4 points from 27 and the lack of progress has relegation written all over it, if the owners can’t see that then we really are doomed.
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This season as I have stated since the start of the season is purely about survival. A rookey manager in charge of a squad of players inexperienced at this level was always going to a hell of a high risk strategy. I guess we are going to find out what our ownership structure is made of now.
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The only grain of comfort I had leaving the ground is that we were in this kind of position and worse for a number of seasons before we actually went down.
It’s not looking good at the moment and is getting worse, but I do think some good signings in January could change things for the better.
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At this moment I am very worried
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Put Terry in charge or splosh big on Poch?
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I have been worried all season, today is the day it's hit us all in the face. We are currently not good enough.
Same here.
The writing was on the wall in the first couple of home games .....performances like those against Everton,Norwich and Newcastle have been the exception and not the rule - Smith is failing strategy wise whilst the players need to look at their levels of commitment - Do we have a fitness coach? If so he needs a kick up the arse
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Put Terry in charge or splosh big on Poch?
I like Terry but I'd put him nowhere near it except as a placeholder for a game or two.
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Anyone who thinks Smith is getting the bullet two weeks after signing a four year contract needs to stop drinking!
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The owners will ask the question: is this Head Coach getting, or capable of getting the best out of these players. The fact is that we are getting worse, so the answer is no. Is another Man more capable of getting more out of them? If the answer is yes, then we know the likely outcome.
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The only grain of comfort I had leaving the ground is that we were in this kind of position and worse for a number of seasons before we actually went down.
It’s not looking good at the moment and is getting worse, but I do think some good signings in January could change things for the better.
In other seasons though, and Im thinking of Lamberts last game v Hull particularly, we had a few players who were comfortably good enough but just not performing. Benteke and Delph come to mind. I look at our midfield, today and all season, and you wonder are any of them capable of getting a grip of things in the middle. Wes from far from our worst today but is nowhere near good enough.
If we dont get results in the next two games we could be cut adrift. A young team and manager could well be sunk at that stage.
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Anyone who thinks Smith is getting the bullet two weeks after signing a four year contract needs to stop drinking!
Giving him a contract extension was idiotic in the extreme and is the type of thing I didn't think the new owners would be doing - this club never seems to learn - Ellis was criticised for his corner shop mentality - expecting a coach adept at working with the likes of Walsall and Brentford to step up in the Premier League now seems ill thought and a bit naive - I accept others have made the transition but Smith doesn't appear to be as progressive and adaptable as Dyche / Howe for example .
Maybe Purslow had been on the Chiraz when he offered Smith the new contract :)
Time for Purslow to step up to the plate and find a manager/coach who is up to the job and give him the experienced players on loan or otherwise to keep us in this league - Relegation is unthinkable - not just financially but for the standing of this once mighty football club - it would appear the comparison to Fulham weren't too wide of the mark
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Anything less than 3 from the next 3 and I genuinely think the bullet may happen
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We have no idea what was in the contract and what the get out clauses are. We don’t know if after year two for example it ramps up financially because we are a secure PL team. Nor do we know if the club struggles that the exit clauses kick in to allow both parties to get out with an agreed settlement. None of knows what it’s in it. What I can absolutely guarantee is that the club knows that whatever it will cost to get out if it pales in comparison the financial disaster that would be relegation. So the contact is nothing more than a number and a fraction of the alternative and far more dreadful consequence of inaction.
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I'd hate to think the owners might keep Smith on purely because he's just signed a new contract. I'd be surprised if they did that. If / when the time comes that they no longer believe he's the right man he should go then, new contract or not.
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Anything less than 3 from the next 3 and I genuinely think the bullet may happen
3 wins or 3 points? If we only get 3 points from 9 he's in big trouble.
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3 points
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I'd hate to think the owners might keep Smith on purely because he's just signed a new contract. I'd be surprised if they did that. If / when the time comes that they no longer believe he's the right man he should go then, new contract or not.
They absolutely won’t. Whatever Dean is on it doesn’t even compare to some of the contracts for example Wes Edens has signed in the NBA. These two and even Purslow aren’t mugs. They will be considering all of their options tonight. Firing him new contract or not is absolutely one of them.
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I'd hate to think the owners might keep Smith on purely because he's just signed a new contract. I'd be surprised if they did that. If / when the time comes that they no longer believe he's the right man he should go then, new contract or not.
They absolutely won’t. Whatever Dean is on it doesn’t even compare to some of the contracts for example Wes Edens has signed in the NBA. These two and even Purslow aren’t mugs. They will be considering all of their options tonight. Firing him new contract or not is absolutely one of them.
I'm sure you're right TV but it has to be said they offered the new contract in the first place. As you say though, if they're as minted as we're led to believe then it shouldn't matter that much.
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I'd hate to think the owners might keep Smith on purely because he's just signed a new contract. I'd be surprised if they did that. If / when the time comes that they no longer believe he's the right man he should go then, new contract or not.
They absolutely won’t. Whatever Dean is on it doesn’t even compare to some of the contracts for example Wes Edens has signed in the NBA. These two and even Purslow aren’t mugs. They will be considering all of their options tonight. Firing him new contract or not is absolutely one of them.
Didn't Edens fire a friend of his who was the Bucks coach at the time? I don't think they'll hesitate at all - I'm just hoping Deano gets this turned around, somehow, before that point.
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His apparent blindness to Big Fucking Wes, and the limitations therein, may well cost him his position very soon. I can see the chop coming before the week is out.
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All I know about the legitimacy of Wes Edens is that the basketball team he part owns is fucking brilliant. Great coaching hires and brilliant player recruitment. Randy F Lerner he ain’t. I’m sure he bought Villa not so they piss around the arse end of the PL or go down.
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I hope they act quickly before January.
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I’ve been worried since Crystal Palace hence the thread but for the first time I now think it’s probable and not possible that we’ll get relegated. Something needs to change and that’s something that has not looked remotely like changing so far, namely the managers formation and personnel.
DS has 2 games against Norwich and Watford to save his job, 6 points required, 4 at the very least or he’ll be potted. Whatever happens we need to reinforce in January.
This is where we’ll really find out about the owners.
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With today's loss, I'm thinking that the next two games are now very much 'must win' - anything less and it's the end of the road for Dean.
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Losing the next two games would absolutely screw us though, we’ll be right in it. I’m not convinced that we’re suddenly going to bring in some quality players during January either.
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I’m officially worried. Completely inept on and off the pitch today. We’re in big relegation trouble unless something changes in January...whether that be new signings or a change in management.
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In danger of falling behind those above us too. Need two wins just to lift us a couple of places.
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I'd hate to think the owners might keep Smith on purely because he's just signed a new contract. I'd be surprised if they did that. If / when the time comes that they no longer believe he's the right man he should go then, new contract or not.
They won't keep him because he's signed a new contract. And they won't keep him because it's expensive to sack him. They'll keep him because 22 days ago they thought he was part of the long term future of the club.
This wasn't a Rodgers at Leicester new contract No one was going to steal Smith from us. So the only reason to give him a new contract was because they're genuinely committed to him.
They're not going to turn around 3 weeks later and go, "actually, we fucked that up massively, he's gone".
It's looking grim, but I don't think a new manager is part of the short term solution.
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Yes, I'm worried. I reached the tipping point today.
The nature of the recent losses and the sheer number of games we have lost over the season are appalling. Players that were excellent earlier in the season are under-performing and some that have never performed have somehow managed to get worse.
Sorry Dean, you have a very short time to turn this around and as nice as you are, Villa are bigger than one man and there is little room for sentiment.
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This new contract thing is a red herring. As it at the time of his 1 year anniversary I’m more inclined to think it was part of a pre existing agreement 1 year in. They’ll also be KPI’s and attached clauses should we be on the bottom 3 etc. the new contract won’t save him. The long term vision might but that’ll be an enormous gamble.
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I officially moved to the worried camp today.
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Unless there is significant changes on the management and playe front this week we'll be going down IMO. As to who we get in I don't know. But Purslow needs to review the recruitment strategy as we have most recruited overpriced shit.
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Worried
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Sad. And worried.
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I'd hate to think the owners might keep Smith on purely because he's just signed a new contract. I'd be surprised if they did that. If / when the time comes that they no longer believe he's the right man he should go then, new contract or not.
They won't keep him because he's signed a new contract. And they won't keep him because it's expensive to sack him. They'll keep him because 22 days ago they thought he was part of the long term future of the club.
This wasn't a Rodgers at Leicester new contract No one was going to steal Smith from us. So the only reason to give him a new contract was because they're genuinely committed to him.
They're not going to turn around 3 weeks later and go, "actually, we fucked that up massively, he's gone".
It's looking grim, but I don't think a new manager is part of the short term solution.
I would love to know what is then.
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There is nothing surprising about this result if you have been paying attention to the form of this team and the managers lack of attention to the obvious failing of individuals and the system he has deployed.
This was a devastating result and performance and one we may not recover from.
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We’ve not recovered since Liverpool truth be told.
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I love Deano and really want him to turn thus around but can’t help but sense his stubbornness to try anything different will be what kills him
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At the moment we are playing as badly as anyone in the league. There certainly aren't 3 teams worse than us. We look like a relegation team. With Ming's and Mcginn out with injury, it's hard to see any short term fix.
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Yes, I'm worried. I reached the tipping point today.
The nature of the recent losses and the sheer number of games we have lost over the season are appalling. Players that were excellent earlier in the season are under-performing and some that have never performed have somehow managed to get worse.
Sorry Dean, you have a very short time to turn this around and as nice as you are, Villa are bigger than one man and there is little room for sentiment.
A big thing in any walk of life is confidence, especially in sport. The players look scared apart from Jack. Confidence is shot to pieces and I'm not sure DS can turn this round. He should've signed Maupay and Benrahma not Wesley and Trezeguet.
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Yes, I'm worried. I reached the tipping point today.
The nature of the recent losses and the sheer number of games we have lost over the season are appalling. Players that were excellent earlier in the season are under-performing and some that have never performed have somehow managed to get worse.
Sorry Dean, you have a very short time to turn this around and as nice as you are, Villa are bigger than one man and there is little room for sentiment.
A big thing in any walk of life is confidence, especially in sport. The players look scared apart from Jack. Confidence is shot to pieces and I'm not sure DS can turn this round. He should've signed Maupay and Benrahma not Wesley and Trezeguet.
That's the thing. We were so desperate for a result, but if we'd been unlucky, robbed by the ref or VAR et , I could just about accept that.
The fact we just caved in, collapsed, and showed no spine at all is THE concern now. Who's to say Norwich won't do exactly the same to us on Boxing Day.
Whoever is picked better start that game on the front foot, or it will be a long excruciating game.
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Officially worried now. I have got through the last month with tough teams but we need 9 from 9 over Christmas. I checked the score at 3.40 yesterday and swore.
Ah well this is how it always is with the Villa! We really need the next six points otherwise championship here we come. I was looking for a game to go to in the second half of the season and realised they were almost all grade A games, that fills me with dread!
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I'd hate to think the owners might keep Smith on purely because he's just signed a new contract. I'd be surprised if they did that. If / when the time comes that they no longer believe he's the right man he should go then, new contract or not.
They won't keep him because he's signed a new contract. And they won't keep him because it's expensive to sack him. They'll keep him because 22 days ago they thought he was part of the long term future of the club.
This wasn't a Rodgers at Leicester new contract No one was going to steal Smith from us. So the only reason to give him a new contract was because they're genuinely committed to him.
They're not going to turn around 3 weeks later and go, "actually, we fucked that up massively, he's gone".
It's looking grim, but I don't think a new manager is part of the short term solution.
I cant believe the owners are so committed to Smith that they will take relegation to honour this new contract.
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Neither can I. They haven't got to be as rich and successful as they are by being that stupid.
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Far too hasty handing DS a 4 year contract. Perhaps at the end of the season if we stayed up. I think they'll be writing a hefty compensation cheque soon....
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I'd hate to think the owners might keep Smith on purely because he's just signed a new contract. I'd be surprised if they did that. If / when the time comes that they no longer believe he's the right man he should go then, new contract or not.
They won't keep him because he's signed a new contract. And they won't keep him because it's expensive to sack him. They'll keep him because 22 days ago they thought he was part of the long term future of the club.
This wasn't a Rodgers at Leicester new contract No one was going to steal Smith from us. So the only reason to give him a new contract was because they're genuinely committed to him.
They're not going to turn around 3 weeks later and go, "actually, we fucked that up massively, he's gone".
It's looking grim, but I don't think a new manager is part of the short term solution.
I cant believe the owners are so committed to Smith that they will take relegation to honour this new contract.
Honestly, try reading my post again if that's what you think I said.
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Very much so. Dean’s inability to change stuff will kill us.
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I officially moved to the worried camp today.
Me too. Shove over.
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Does anyone have a copy of the Villa badge torn asunder? Asking for a friend in Midlands journalism.
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Very much so. Dean’s inability to change stuff will kill us.
There was a Brentford fan who posted (i think it was on h&v) He wished Dean all the best and thanked him for everything he did at their club. However the one thing he did say that is now becoming painfully obvious is exacty that. He either can't or won't change things during a match and seems to get out thought by the opposition. He has got to change this. He's got to learn to have a plan B up his sleeve otherwise i'm afraid he'll be toast before this season ends.
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I officially moved to the worried camp today.
Me too. Shove over.
Room for another one?
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It’s becoming obvious that we have bought players who show promise and can at times look like they belong at this level, but we don’t have enough of them and end up playing with too many players out of form, this then morphs into confidence plummeting and we play painfully slow, ponderous, safe football. The higher quality, better conditioned opposition get into their defensive positions quickly and easily and we look lost going forward. At the back, we need a defensive boot camp, yesterday was amateur hour.
We need new players, I worry that they will have to come in from abroad into a relegation battle and that’s far from ideal.
If we an get some belief back, all is far from lost.
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We’ve looked pretty decent at times this season but we are not improving and are actually getting worse which for me is the most worrying thing of all
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Very much so. Dean’s inability to change stuff will kill us.
There was a Brentford fan who posted (i think it was on h&v) He wished Dean all the best and thanked him for everything he did at their club. However the one thing he did say that is now becoming painfully obvious is exacty that. He either can't or won't change things during a match and seems to get out thought by the opposition. He has got to change this. He's got to learn to have a plan B up his sleeve otherwise i'm afraid he'll be toast before this season ends.
Which was my worry when his name was first touted to replace Bruce in summer 2018. Whilst he did well at Brentford and they were always top half of the table They never threatened to get in the play-offs or get promoted as I recall. So not really great track record
Leicester Was the game when I started getting worried as it was poor tactically and an abject surrender from the team.There have simply been to many games like yesterday where we just haven’t turned up.
Smith hasn’t been helped by some of the signings we made which I suspect he didn’t 100% approve
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I officially moved to the worried camp today.
Me too. Shove over.
Room for another one?
How big is your bum?
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If they can’t/don’t want to sack smith, what about Big Sam being brought in as DoF or something, just to get some bloody experience in the club?
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If they can’t/don’t want to sack smith, what about Big Sam being brought in as DoF or something, just to get some bloody experience in the club?
Jesus Christ no.
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I can't get that photo of Grealish flat out on the pitch at the end of the game out of my mind. He so wants to be a success with us and not someone else.
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Watford beating Man Ure at home now, bloody hell we seem doomed!
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I have to say, worried or not, the spectre of Big Sam being rolled out by some on here worries me more. He will do nothing for us, he is s spent force, if he rolls through the gates I probably would give games a miss for a while. It would make bruceball look like Messi and Bale!
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I have to say, worried or not, the spectre of Big Sam being rolled out by some on here worries me more. He will do nothing for us, he is s spent force, if he rolls through the gates I probably would give games a miss for a while. It would make bruceball look like Messi and Bale!
A resounding 'no' to Allardyce. In any shape or form.
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I am trying to understand the logic of playing a high line with a snail pace centre half against a very pacey forward line, that's two games Leicester and Southampton where his tactics were woeful.
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This is why I’ve pretty much lost faith in DS. It’s not like it’s small margins costing us either it’s errors so basic that a Sunday pub team would be embarrassed. Look at the capitulation against Arsenal, the marking at set pieces where on several occasions he’s openly admitted we got these wrong due to poor communication, the lack of possession in virtually every game we play, the consistently dreadful way we start 2nd halves, the stubborn persistence with 4-4-3 and belatedly poor use of substitutions.
People have a crack at Wesley for not getting up to speed but our poorest performer so far this season has been Dean Smith imo. He’s 2 games to save his job, I hope he still can but the time for excuses and learning from mistakes has passed.
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This is why I’ve pretty much lost faith in DS. It’s not like it’s small margins costing us either it’s errors so basic that a Sunday pub team would be embarrassed. Look at the capitulation against Arsenal, the marking at set pieces where on several occasions he’s openly admitted we got these wrong due to poor communication, the lack of possession in virtually every game we play, the consistently dreadful way we start 2nd halves, the stubborn persistence with 4-4-3 and belatedly poor use of substitutions.
People have a crack at Wesley for not getting up to speed but our poorest performer so far this season has been Dean Smith imo. He’s 2 games to save his job, I hope he still can but the time for excuses and learning from mistakes has passed.
This. Sums it up for me. If Dean rolls out the same team and same approach on Boxing Day, he will be toast
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Thing is we have all been guilty of expectations being higher than our ability. We have some genuine talent on the pitch but as a team it isn’t gelling and by the time we do gel I fear it is too late. I believe the side has the makings of a good side but it is one that maybe needed a season in the championship to gel. Our financial position then and now means that it wasn’t an option but coming up when we did and with huge chunks of the play off final team no longer here has affected us, massively. The we are a big club bollocks hasn’t helped as since our absence there is s new order in the prem. Changing managers every 5 minutes is only a short term effect and only creates a viscous circle. I don’t think smith is the right manager for us at the moment but to drop him now will again only potentially give us a short term managers boost. He has been found out at this level and the coaching staff need to be proactive not reactive. Any reactive changes need to be done quickly as we have massively been found out. I got ripped apart when I said this run of form was typically dean smith as it happened with Brentford and with us (comparisons were made and consensus was we arent in championship anymore) but this win or lose will be dangerous as results need to be ground out at times. More than anything the lambert years are back with no ball retention a hell bent for leather first minutes and then shitting ourselves defending a 1 nil lead. Then we did have a striker who could score. The lack of striking power is pathetic and we might as well play 10 men but also Wesley needs service. At the moment just like the lambert years the service is patchy or non existent.
If I’m honest we are crocked this season unless the team and coaches step up and wake up to the situation and focus on tactics that work rather than slavishly adopting a system of 433 that is clearly not working. The teams around us are hitting form. To close the gaps it’s now or never but I just think our heads have dropped and where we are lacking is leaders on and off the pitch.
Sorry for the ranting.
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I think we have come to the point where we need to close this thread and start a new one asking if anyone is NOT starting to get worried. Although at the moment it would almost certainly be a short lived thread.
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After the next five league games we will either be happy, suicidal or somewhere in between.
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Good post Wince.
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I'm definitely worried. When the players stop running and hide then it's the beginning of the end. Having seen it several times now. Maybe there will be a good reaction for the Norwich game, but I suspect morale is flat.
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I'm definitely worried. When the players stop running and hide then it's the beginning of the end. Having seen it several times now. Maybe there will be a good reaction for the Norwich game, but I suspect morale is flat.
Can you imagine VP if Norwich score first?
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Seconded, good post Wince
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Cheers lads. I am not as astute on tactics as some but surely a 352 would be better. I’m having a break from caring at moment as wont let football get in the way of Christmas. But let’s get behind the villa and hope we survive and get our mojo back
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Nice one Wince ......I'm no longer worried, just resigned
Going into the season without at least two recognised/experienced strikers was naive at best .....fucking stupid more like
If the club fail to act now then I guess they too are resigned to going back down or are placing blind faith in Smith come what may - hence the contract renewal
If Smith is integral to the "plan" and therefore the future of the club I suggest it will competing against the likes of Rotherham and Wigan rather than Liverpool or Citeh .... over the top reaction? Maybe ,but I am extremely disappointed that the euphoria,goodwill and momentum generated at Wembley, and after,will be lost ........we need to behave like a big club if we are to be taken seriously - that starts with the appointment of a manager who can manage a big club
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I think our position, and the spending to even be there shows just how far behind we are following years of neglect. It's going to take an awful lot more money and time to get us competing.
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I think our position, and the spending to even be there shows just how far behind we are following years of neglect. It's going to take an awful lot more money and time to get us competing.
ouch ....that's the reality and it hurts :(
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I think our position, and the spending to even be there shows just how far behind we are following years of neglect. It's going to take an awful lot more money and time to get us competing.
Yeah, I just didn't realise how established the "established teams" are. It's going to take a lot of effort, from all elements of this club, to stay in this division
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I think our position, and the spending to even be there shows just how far behind we are following years of neglect. It's going to take an awful lot more money and time to get us competing.
ouch ....that's the reality and it hurts :(
It does.
But it's true that we need a project, a plan, and to stick with it through tough times as well as the good.
We were 17th in the Championship a year ago with a load of loan players (the good ones) and old players who were all due to leave. It's a miracle we got promoted to be honest.
We're on the way, just slowly this season. 2 or 3 decent signings and we'll be ok, I really believe it. However, there is certainly a twitchiness there!!!
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It's the harsh reality that gets to you ......currently we are not able to beat teams like Southampton, Sheffield Utd and Bournemouth
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It's the harsh reality that gets to you ......currently we are not able to beat teams like Southampton, Sheffield Utd and Bournemouth
Out of that lot, the South coast sides ahve been in the top division, safely for years. Sheffield United have a good manager, a stable squad and have built together.
We've just put a bunch of players together not 6 months ago and we should have no expectation of beating anyone. It's shit but it's the truth.
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Fair comment ......you are right it is shit
For the likes of me I can say " I've seen it all before"
It's my lad and his generation I feel for - he was so upbeat after Wembley and was able to hold his head up living up here
Now the Redshite are on the march again ( we didn't overcelebrate the cup win ) and Everton are thinking big
Villa have this knack of bringing us down to earth :(
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It’s a bad bad situation but I have to believe that our owners must appreciate how damaging it would be for us to be relegated and will do all they can to make sure it doesn’t happen.
But maybe I’m deluded. We’ll see.
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I wasn't too worried up to recently because we were generally playing well and had been unlucky with VAR and ref decisions which had costs us a few deserved points.
I'm worried now, almost resigned. From about the Wolves game we seem to have gone rapidly downhill (apart from Man Yoo), we don't seem to press, there's little movement, the defence is leaky, the attack shot shy, the midfield is neither covering the defence or providing chances, we're poor in possession and worse without the ball, we're slow all over the pitch and we've got players hiding or going missing. And Smith shows no sign of knowing how to fix any of it.
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I think our position, and the spending to even be there shows just how far behind we are following years of neglect. It's going to take an awful lot more money and time to get us competing.
ouch ....that's the reality and it hurts :(
It does.
But it's true that we need a project, a plan, and to stick with it through tough times as well as the good.
We were 17th in the Championship a year ago with a load of loan players (the good ones) and old players who were all due to leave. It's a miracle we got promoted to be honest.
We're on the way, just slowly this season. 2 or 3 decent signings and we'll be ok, I really believe it. However, there is certainly a twitchiness there!!!
Sticking with a bad plan is just idiocy though. It's becomingly increasingly clear that Smith is a Championship level manager with only one way of playing. His tactics are poor, and his game management really naive. It's Paul Lambert all over again.
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I think our position, and the spending to even be there shows just how far behind we are following years of neglect. It's going to take an awful lot more money and time to get us competing.
Yeah, I just didn't realise how established the "established teams" are. It's going to take a lot of effort, from all elements of this club, to stay in this division
Most of the established teams have been s*** this season. This is arguably the worst Arsenal and Man. United teams for decades. Spurs were poor and remain hit and miss under Mourinho. Chelsea been better but also inconsistant. You compare those four to their teams when we were trying to get top 4 under MON and there's a huge difference.
Ultimately given all the points they've donated to our relegation rivals so far this season we're going to have to beat a couple of them at VP to stay up imo and from his tactics I don't think DS will be capable of that.
This year has been a freak season. Last year the standard in the bottom half was really poor, you had Huddersfield and Fulham pretty much relegated at xmas and Cardiff were much poorer than all the sides we're trying to finish above in that area.
I still reckon we'll stay up although I concede it will probably have to mean a managerial change which for me isn't ideal as DS is a manager I've really got behind.
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I think our position, and the spending to even be there shows just how far behind we are following years of neglect. It's going to take an awful lot more money and time to get us competing.
ouch ....that's the reality and it hurts :(
It does.
But it's true that we need a project, a plan, and to stick with it through tough times as well as the good.
We were 17th in the Championship a year ago with a load of loan players (the good ones) and old players who were all due to leave. It's a miracle we got promoted to be honest.
We're on the way, just slowly this season. 2 or 3 decent signings and we'll be ok, I really believe it. However, there is certainly a twitchiness there!!!
Sticking with a bad plan is just idiocy though. It's becomingly increasingly clear that Smith is a Championship level manager with only one way of playing. His tactics are poor, and his game management really naive. It's Paul Lambert all over again.
Nail on head there Risso - he too is beginning to remind me of Lambert
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I think our position, and the spending to even be there shows just how far behind we are following years of neglect. It's going to take an awful lot more money and time to get us competing.
ouch ....that's the reality and it hurts :(
It does.
But it's true that we need a project, a plan, and to stick with it through tough times as well as the good.
We were 17th in the Championship a year ago with a load of loan players (the good ones) and old players who were all due to leave. It's a miracle we got promoted to be honest.
We're on the way, just slowly this season. 2 or 3 decent signings and we'll be ok, I really believe it. However, there is certainly a twitchiness there!!!
Sticking with a bad plan is just idiocy though. It's becomingly increasingly clear that Smith is a Championship level manager with only one way of playing. His tactics are poor, and his game management really naive. It's Paul Lambert all over again.
Nail on head there Risso - he too is beginning to remind me of Lambert
And it now looks like they are going to spend their way out of trouble in January. Massive gamble. If they eventually sack him, we are back to square one with another load of players that the next bloke won't want. I hope they know what they are doing!
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That's the thing though, we're trying a system and way of playing and the next manager would be expected to play a similar way...
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Sheffield United were in an even bigger mess than us not so long ago and they seem to be doing alright.
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I drove back home from London tonight and listened to the Monday night football thing on 5 Live.
Discussing us, Micah Richards said he thinks we will stay up but injuries have hit us hard. Bigged up Jack massively. He seems to have watched a lot of our games this season and reckons we have concentration issues rather than a major weakness ( I think he is wrong on that. Darren Fletcher was on too, and he said Grealish is one of the best ball carriers he has ever played against. Both of them and Rory Ketland Jones (sp?) said that adding an end product has made a massive difference to his game.Jones actually made the valid point that Grealish and Maddison are different players - the ball carrier and the short, zippy pass and move merchant. I can’t believe more people outside Villa Park haven’t noticed this when comparing them.
A valid discussion ensued, started by Fletcher I think, about leaving ourselves too open. Two full backs bombing on with no defensive midfielder filling in is suicide. He says the way to beat us is to suck us in and hit us on the counter with a 2 v 2 scenario. Leicester and Southampton being recent examples of this. He also said we don’t seem to have a player who is suited to the defensive midfielder role. He reckons we should be more pragmatic and sacrifice some style for solidity. If only....
Richards said that the key for Jack to create is to play higher up the pitch, and that was a recurring message at Bodymoor Heath. Stay out of your own half, basically. All three reckoned he would be good enough for a team at the top end of the table.
As an aside I like Fletcher as a pundit. I thought he was underrated as a player and he seems intelligent and pretty articulate. I have no idea how the BBC thought that Clinton Morrison could fulfil a similar role for them.
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That's the thing though, we're trying a system and way of playing and the next manager would be expected to play a similar way...
“Sorry Poch, unless you’re prepared to stick rigidly to the previous manager’s 4-3-3 that’s served us so well, there’s no deal.” 😉
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That's the thing though, we're trying a system and way of playing and the next manager would be expected to play a similar way...
I hope they're not thinking that. It's the tail wagging the dog.
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Pat, I think they summed it up. No midfielder able to protect the back 4 and none of them seem to want to play that role. I think the 3 in the middle makes the situation worse as there is no definitive role for any of them.
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That's the thing though, we're trying a system and way of playing and the next manager would be expected to play a similar way...
“Sorry Poch, unless you’re prepared to stick rigidly to the previous manager’s 4-3-3 that’s served us so well, there’s no deal.” 😉
oh yeh, and you are not allowed to make substitutions until the opposition have scored in the second half.
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[quote author=Pat McMahon
As an aside I like Fletcher as a pundit. I thought he was underrated as a player and he seems intelligent and pretty articulate. I have no idea how the BBC thought that Clinton Morrison could fulfil a similar role for them.
[/quote] I said the same about Morrison, how can he even apply for a job that requires him to speak, and who the hell appointed him.
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That's the thing though, we're trying a system and way of playing and the next manager would be expected to play a similar way...
“Sorry Poch, unless you’re prepared to stick rigidly to the previous manager’s 4-3-3 that’s served us so well, there’s no deal.” 😉
He wouldn't come to us. Not until the summer at least.
We need a style and approach. We've chopped and changed so many times its ridiculous. You want to tear it up and start all over again? And what happens when we lose 3 under the next manager? Change it again?
Smith may not be the long term answer. Though I dearly hope he is. There have been plenty of examples of us playing well. Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool, Everton, Norwich... And plenty of bad ones too. The question really is about which is the more likely? At the moment, in the midst of a really bad run, it's easy to plump for the latter. When we're doing well, the former.
He's been here a year so far. And has moved us 20 places up the league ladder into the toughest division in the world. Arguably we'd have been better off still down there, growing an identity and system that we could bring up, like Sheff Utd and Wolves did.
It's tough and I don't think we should twist yet.
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The thing is over the last decade or so - since O'Neill probably - the one thing we haven't done is absolutely push the boat out to get a manager who is somewhere approaching the top of the game. We may have tried, I don't know, but we haven't succeeded. If it comes to replacing Smith, that's what I think we should do. It's the single most influential post at the club. You look at the list of the no marks who have managed us since O'Neill left us in the lurch (jury still out on Smith) and it makes me cringe. The problem is not that we've appointed a lot of managers; we've had no choice but to because we've kept appointing shit ones.
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Last year 35 pts was enough to stay up but looking at this years table, it will be 40 IMO. That’s 25 pts we need from 18 games or more pertinently a return of 60% greater than we were able in the first 18 games.
Honestly I don’t see it - if we don’t beat Norwich and start that climb then we are in a world of trouble.
Yes worried
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Point of order, if you're correct about 40 points, it's 25 points from 20 games, not 18, or an improvement of about 30%. A big job, to be sure, but not out of reach if we recruit wisely in January and start putting some results together.
I suspect though, that come May, we'll look back at the Southampton game as the point at which a lot of us knew it was going wrong. I just don't see us turning it around and won't be surprised if we're bottom by NYD.
Boxing Day is absolutely key, IMO. I won't be confident we're staying up if we win,. but I'll be certain we're going down if we don't. Sadly, I expect a comfortable win for Norwich.
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Must confess after that absymal showing against Saints and with 4 League defeats in a row, i am getting a little bit jittery---admittedly there is a good way to go and time for improvement--but confidence seems rock bottom we must start to win games BEGINNING with Boxng Day!!
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[quote author=Pat McMahon
As an aside I like Fletcher as a pundit. I thought he was underrated as a player and he seems intelligent and pretty articulate. I have no idea how the BBC thought that Clinton Morrison could fulfil a similar role for them.
I said the same about Morrison, how can he even apply for a job that requires him to speak, and who the hell appointed him.
[/quote]
On Sunday he referred to a manager saying “he is good at speaking and that sort of thing” :)
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Pat, I think they summed it up. No midfielder able to protect the back 4 and none of them seem to want to play that role. I think the 3 in the middle makes the situation worse as there is no definitive role for any of them.
We probably need two holding midfielders and have done for sometime. I like Marvellous but he is getting pulled everywhere and overwhelmed in games. Hourihane and Lansbury aren't going to cut it in the top flight in that kind of role and Luiz is struggling with the pace of the game.
We desperately need someone with a bit of experience and quality to come in and sit in midfield alongside Nakamba and with McGinn out, move Grealish into a more central role in front of them.
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I think the major problem is the midfield aren’t actually doing anything of use. They neither shield the defence, nor do they create anything or set the pace of the game.
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I think the major problem is the midfield aren’t actually doing anything of use. They neither shield the defence, nor do they create anything or set the pace of the game.
This
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There's just a giant hole where midfield should be.
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Quite right, unless he solves the midfield problem from a defensive perspective, any changes he makes is shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic.
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After showing early promise, it turns out that most of our business in the summer was shite, and we’ve spent well over £100m on players that simply aren’t good enough...
Wes
Trez
AEG
Targett
Marv
Luiz
Jota
...with question marks over Engels and Konsa.
Whether it’s the players or the management team, it’s like history is repeating itself.
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I think wes trez and aeg havent been good signings tj be hinest. Jota has been injured so unfair on hik just yet.
I think luiz marevllous engels and konsa have been goid signings.
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Nakamba is a fucking liability’s
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We've bought some absolute shite in the summer, we need a midfielder a striker and a winger absolute bare minimum if we are to stay up.
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Almost as worrying as our lack of footballing ability is the teams around us and the form they're currently hitting. Fucking Southampton beating Chelsea 2-0 away from home like. What the fuck is that about. Pricks.
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We need another 20 points to stay up imo.
Going to be a tough ask. Lots of tough home games left. Bar Man. City we simply can't write off any home games left. Need to show some balls and go out and beat some of the teams we never beat anymore, Arsenal, Spurs and Man. United. Other teams around us don't seem to have much issue beating them or Chelsea.
2-3 away wins would help aswell. Think the next two games will say more about our survivial prospects than today. 3 points today has just about stopped us drowning for now.
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Man city are beatable. Need to get the goal difference up before Anfield though.
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As much as people give stick to our summer business you only have to look at Adama on a weekly basis now to see a bit of patience with young players is needed on occasions. Guy is now one of the best wide attackers in the league.
Not saying Trez is going to hit those heights but given he's scored a few goals while settling in he does have some talent and I'd say the same for likes of Douglas Luiz who shows glimmers of a very good central midfield player but obviously lacks consistancy at this stage.
What we need to do is provide 3-4 ready made top level players for these guys to learn off in the next few windows. If we can't get them in January, hopefully we'll sign well enough to stay up and we can target again in the summer.
Don't get people dismissing likes of Giroud or Pedro as January options. Guess there's nothing a 65 cap Spanish international and someone who played 200 times for Barca can teach Trez I guess.
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Villa need 4 more wins and 6 draws
To get 36 points in remaining 19 matches
Firstly let's take the fixtures at home .
9 remaining ,and in order of difficulty .
This is based on table away form since season start. Easier matches first.
Watford
Spurs
Man Utd
Arsenal
Palace
Wolves
Sheffield Utd
Chelsea
Man city
Away fixtures
These based on difficulty from the home form table
Watford
Southampton
West ham
Bournemouth
Brighton
Burnley
Newcastle
Everton
Leicester
Liverpool
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We have blown so many of our easier Home games, our away games look easier except we have the worst away record in the league ( except Norwich).
We need at least 5 wins.
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There's just a giant hole where midfield should be.
mainly a McGinn shaped hole. Does anybody know how much longer he is likely to be out for? Along with Jack, he’s obviously one of our most influential players when he’s on form. He did look like he needed a rest after the last international round of matches, but I think our form will improve when he comes back in (hopefully soon).
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There's just a giant hole where midfield should be.
mainly a McGinn shaped hole. Does anybody know how much longer he is likely to be out for? Along with Jack, he’s obviously one of our most influential players when he’s on form. He did look like he needed a rest after the last international round of matches, but I think our form will improve when he comes back in (hopefully soon).
He is out for 3 months my most accounts.
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There's just a giant hole where midfield should be.
mainly a McGinn shaped hole. Does anybody know how much longer he is likely to be out for? Along with Jack, he’s obviously one of our most influential players when he’s on form. He did look like he needed a rest after the last international round of matches, but I think our form will improve when he comes back in (hopefully soon).
He is out for 3 months my most accounts.
yes - just read on Pravda, he has fractured his ankle. That’s a fker. Oh well he should be back to help our push for top 4 at the end of the season!
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The problem with a lack of midfield cover was evident with SJM playing.
I also think that he has had a lot of criticism but I think he has been giving all of his energy trying to cover defensively. The flat 3 midfield has not worked for sometime now.
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If anyone is really starting to worry, I can recommend putting the following into the YouTube search box: "Aston Villa Sweet Caroline Wembley". It's excellent for the soul. We've got this.
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The last time 40+ PTS was needed to stay up was in 2010/11 and before that was in 2002/03 43pts and clubs only needed 4 times in 25 seasons to reach 40+ points other years being
96/97 41 pts
97/98 41 pts
Minimum number of points needed to stay up
11/12 37pts
12/13 37pts
13/14 34pts
14/15 36pts
15/16 38pts
16/17 35pts
17/18 34pts
18/19 35pts
For me 36 -38 PTS max to stay up.
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I am after seeing the team v Watford I am
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Fuck it. Yes.
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I was worried half a dozen games ago. Now I'm convinced we'll be relegated.
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Me, too. Completely. It's taken until that first half to get to the completely stage.
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Beyond worry to despondency.
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Too many players brought in with little or no experience of top flight football in England.
I think Wesley, Nakamba and Luiz may well be ok given time but we don't have time.
I find it maddening.
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The foreign players are always a risk so you need a balance with some prem based experience. However, we should have known everything about Targett. Southampton fans were pissing themselves over the £17m. Crazy
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shitting my pants now
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Lose today, with Burnley and Man City coming up, we'll be adrift before we can get any new players in and settled.
We don't honestly look like we have the fighting spirit in the squad to stay up.
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Keep Dean Smith and we will go down.
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Keep Dean Smith and we will go down.
Too late we are done
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We’re toast. We look far and away the worst team in the league.
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We’re gone.
Any change from that would be a massive bonus. We are now officially a doomed joke.
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Very little hope now.....bollocks, complete and utter bollocks.
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We need swift action from the owners to save us. We will see.
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It is very clear that there is something fundamentally wrong. The lack of a tactical idea is one thing, but the absolute lack of effort/energy is abysmal.
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I think we’re gone. It’s got too bad and the rot is too deep. It’s going to be a painful 2020. Unless we buy a stonking striker and midfielder in the window there is just the slow slide back into the championship.
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Since the first Vardy goal in Leicester game we've looked a proper relegation side, championship 11 masquerading in the top division.
Hard to believe the Man. United performance was less than a month ago. We look proper bobbins atm. Even the Norwich win we were very lucky to win given the chances we gave them and we spectacularly failed to back up that win today.
We're not good enough. The worry I have is we won't make the managerial change at the right time just like in 15/16. Back then we let Sherwood have countless six pointers and we failed to win any of them.
Remi Garde started with a home game v Man. City. Didn't win that and then got thrashed in a difficult away game at Everton so we simply couldn't get new manager bounce.
We let Dean go after Burnley and the next game is Man. City at home and then Brighton away who comfortably beat Bournemouth at home.
Ultimately though we do little bar sign some more lower level projects and we'll struggle to win more than three more games this season and will go down by quite a distance.
At least a new manager would give us a chance of 5-6 wins and that could well be enough. We need to stay up. I can't understand anyone who'd be happy to just go down and be back to being a big fish in a small pond.
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Lost for words. Not worried any more cos worried implies there is still little hope. I just can' see any. Really sad today.
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We're not doomed at all, considering how shit we've been recently we're only 2 points from safety with 18 games to go. If we'd beaten Saints we'd be 15th, that's how small the margins are so i'm not waving the white flag yet.
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If we continue to perform as we have we are toast.
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I can't understand anyone who'd be happy to just go down and be back to being a big fish in a small pond.
If there was even a slight chance of us competing properly at this level (I don't mean getting into Europe; I'd settle for a few years of mid-table mediocrity or, at least, not needing a miracle to avoid relegation), I'd be as ecstatic as the next fan. However, there's nothing I've seen - apart from a few flashes - that make me think we can with this set-up. I want Smith gone; top-level players brought in and for Villa to stay up but, if that doesn't happen, going back down and playing at the right level for squad and manager would be a relief, to be honest. At least I'd enjoy it more than I do the current cockwash on offer.
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Yes (reluctantly)
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I can't understand anyone who'd be happy to just go down and be back to being a big fish in a small pond.
If there was even a slight chance of us competing properly at this level (I don't mean getting into Europe; I'd settle for a few years of mid-table mediocrity or, at least, not needing a miracle to avoid relegation), I'd be as ecstatic as the next fan. However, there's nothing I've seen - apart from a few flashes - that make me think we can with this set-up. I want Smith gone; top-level players brought in and for Villa to stay up but, if that doesn't happen, going back down and playing at the right level for squad and manager would be a relief, to be honest. At least I'd enjoy it more than I do the current cockwash on offer.
We just need to sign better.
I don't mind young promising players but 2-3 at the most, there has to be a balance and I'm staggered we've gone down the same route as in summer 2015. The result is a bit better but we're still in the bottom 3.
As I've said many times Wolves is a template. We need to swallow our pride and look at how they've done things. Signed young players like Neves and Adama but also proven quality like Joao Moutinho.
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Norwich winning. We'll be bottom by end of January.
Leicester also missed a penalty v West Ham (Fabianski saves on his return) and they've put out a really weak 11.
Even when we were doing o.k it seems results from elsewhere have gone against us all season.
At the moment we're nowhere near good enough to stop up whatever else happens.
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To top if off norwich are winning. We are gone. We only have ourselves to blame.
Grealish mcginn and mjngs will all go
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We have time, we are not cut adrift. But we must sack Smith immediately. A new manager could get us to safety. Smith will relegate us.
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Norwhich are showing something. They are playing together.
We haven't done anything like this since man united. Something has to be done. Bring in players for sure. Sacking Smith maybe. I'd be sorry for him because i like him but if it needs doing ...
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Oh look norwixh beatings spurs 2-0
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Norwhich are showing something. They are playing together.
We haven't done anything like this since man united. Something has to be done. Bring in players for sure. Sacking Smith maybe. I'd be sorry for him because i like him but if it needs doing ...
I wonder if the Norwich fans were calling for the managers head when they lost a few games.
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Norwhich are showing something. They are playing together.
We haven't done anything like this since man united. Something has to be done. Bring in players for sure. Sacking Smith maybe. I'd be sorry for him because i like him but if it needs doing ...
I wonder if the Norwich fans were calling for the managers head when they lost a few games.
They were at the start of last season
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Oh look norwixh beatings spurs 2-0
1-0 an armpit hair was offside according to VAR.
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I’m not so much worried as resigned. The only positive is there’s half a season left... but I’m struggling to see how that’s going to help us.
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Oh look norwixh beatings spurs 2-0
1-0 an armpit hair was offside according to VAR.
Nah it was a stray beard hair. If only he had trimmed it this morning
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Norwhich are showing something. They are playing together.
We haven't done anything like this since man united. Something has to be done. Bring in players for sure. Sacking Smith maybe. I'd be sorry for him because i like him but if it needs doing ...
I wonder if the Norwich fans were calling for the managers head when they lost a few games.
In all fairness, Norwich are not Aston Villa. And anyway, could you see Farke consistently playing a player of Grealish's talent out of position on the left wing, and/or sticking with Wesley up front every game? No. Me neither.
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Starting to get worried? Christ...beyond worried, it's happening and we are fecking awful. Awful and all this if Deano did this, if we beat Southampton, if we didn't lose Mings...if if if. If nothing changes we're down, and only a fool can't see that. It's happening once again that we sleepwalk to relegation. We learn nothing at the Villa, nothing.
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Norwhich are showing something. They are playing together.
We haven't done anything like this since man united. Something has to be done. Bring in players for sure. Sacking Smith maybe. I'd be sorry for him because i like him but if it needs doing ...
I wonder if the Norwich fans were calling for the managers head when they lost a few games.
Ultimately they spent very little compared to us in the summer.
They do actually remind me of us in how naive they are in periods of matches. Given the bigger teams better games though given they beat Norwich, should've beaten Arsenal and deserve to be 1 up v Spurs.
To stay up we're going to have to beat some of those in second half of the season whoever the manager is.
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We need swift action from the owners to save us. We will see.
After a bit of sulking, I do think this is salvageable if the right actions are taken quickly. This isn't like when we had a disinterested Lerner and his clueless sidekicks running us into the ground, but the new owners and the hierarchy of the club have now got to make some massive decisions. We are nowhere near cut adrift at this point, but do run the risk of becoming so if this continues much longer.
They have put faith in Dean Smith and his staff, and had a transfer policy in the summer geared towards younger players. We are now halfway through the season and it hasn't worked and it is rapidly getting worse.
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Good points tomd. I am feeling pretty downbeat but when you look at the table all is not lost. Bit of decisive action by the ownership, whatever that may be, and there is time for the club to be galvanised this season. Certainly shouldn't be the pathetic surrender of 2016.
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The similarities to 2016 is the strength and experience of the team, some good potential but not enough experience.
This time the club has a management structure and owners recently invested.
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Feeling really low so dared to look at the table and had to remind myself how tight it all is. We could/should so easily be upper mid table but thanks to some appalling game management and Kevin Friend we’re not. The performances are the greatest worry as we look utterly shot.
We’re effectively 2 points from safety with 54 still to play for. That’s not panic stations. The performances over the last 4 weeks most certainly have been. Very worried but not resigned like I was in 2015/16. Over to Purslow and the owners.
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We are going to be in the mix whatever happens. None of the teams at the bottom are as bad as those of 5 or 6 years ago.
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TBH I've always thought we'd go down because the recruitment in the summer mirrored that of 2015. I can honestly say i haven't enjoyed our return much at all. Needless to say, I will be renewing my ST at the earliest opportunity to do my tiny bit for the club.
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Anyone know what the FFP implications are of us returning to the shithole that is The Championship?
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Frightening
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Anyone know what the FFP implications are of us returning to the shithole that is The Championship?
We sell Jack Mings and SJM
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Jack Mings? Is he in the U23s? Do you think it might be worth playing him instead of Concrete Wes?
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:o
Jack Mings? Is he in the U23s? Do you think it might be worth playing him instead of Concrete Wes?
Jack Ma would be better than concrete Wes
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Whats scary will be intransigence, lack of ruthless decision making and watching the club sink in a very relaxed way, we all know where this can go, Aston Villa virtually vanished just a short while back.
If its not working fix it, or at least try.
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Anyone know what the FFP implications are of us returning to the shithole that is The Championship?
I get the feeling we'd get a points deduction. All the other clubs were whinging about us but we got up and out of their way. Think the FL would act given they've done it to our neighbours and to shut everyone up, would also be a good warning to everyone else.
We really can't get relegated as it would set us back another three years imo but looks much more likely than three weeks ago (morning of the Leicester game which shows how quickly football can change).
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8 games in 32 days coming up including 3 cup games.
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8 games in 32 days coming up including 3 cup games.
On that fixture schedule on present form we could be on here by the 29th Jan, just a few short weeks away saying we need to think about life after Grealish, Mings, Heaton, McGinn and how we will rebuild for the Championship.
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8 games in 32 days coming up including 3 cup games.
On that fixture schedule on present form we could be on here by the 29th Jan, just a few short weeks away saying we need to think about life after Grealish, Mings, Heaton, McGinn and how we will rebuild for the Championship.
Don’t worry we have got Brighton Watford and Bournemouth coming up. :)
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8 games in 32 days coming up including 3 cup games.
On that fixture schedule on present form we could be on here by the 29th Jan, just a few short weeks away saying we need to think about life after Grealish, Mings, Heaton, McGinn and how we will rebuild for the Championship.
Don’t worry we have got Brighton Watford and Bournemouth coming up. :)
That's okay then, is it wrong to say a win from the Watford game is nailed on?
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The situation is very far from irredeemable. There are six teams within six points of us. Of them, Bournemouth and West Ham are also in woeful form. Burnley don’t score any goals. Above them, you wouldn’t expect Newcastle to keep getting better results than their performances deserve. Feels like a long shot given the last few games, but even four points from Burnley and Brighton over our next few games would likely see us move up the table.
The key, I guess, is whether you believe Smith is capable/willing to make the changes that we desperately need. Make us more solid, find a way to free up the good players that we do have to make more of an impact and make us a bit more streetwise and we can absolutely get out of this. Probably does require two/three good additions in January though.
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8 games in 32 days coming up including 3 cup games.
On that fixture schedule on present form we could be on here by the 29th Jan, just a few short weeks away saying we need to think about life after Grealish, Mings, Heaton, McGinn and how we will rebuild for the Championship.
Don’t worry we have got Brighton Watford and Bournemouth coming up. :)
That's okay then, is it wrong to say a win from the Watford game is nailed on?
Yes they are all ready down apparently.
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Jan 18th Brighton
Jan 21st Watford
Feb 1st Bournemouth
Three massive fixtures and we have time to hopefully bring in a player or two before those games.
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Jan 18th Brighton
Jan 21st Watford
Feb 1st Bournemouth
Three massive fixtures and we have time to hopefully bring in a player or two before those games.
6 points from those, if against Watford and Bournemouth, would be good.
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Man City have shown themselves beatable. Get a performance like the Liverpool one and we have a chance. Not much of one ...
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Imagine if at the start of August, someone would have told you that by the halfway point we'd have won as many games as Arsenal, and only two fewer than Man Utd and Spurs.
I'd have snapped their hands off.
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*silently corrects grammar and weeps*
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Jan 18th Brighton
Jan 21st Watford
Feb 1st Bournemouth
Three massive fixtures and we have time to hopefully bring in a player or two before those games.
6 points from those, if against Watford and Bournemouth, would be good.
6 points from those 3 games plus the Man City game would be good. In fact, if we average 6 points from 4 games though the end of the season, we'd be on 46 points come end of the season and survival.
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Our second half of the season looks a lot tougher than the first half.
We now have serious injuries to contend with.
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Let's hope we make some astute signings.
I'm hopeful that with a decent midfielder and 2 strikers we'll be fine.
Do you mean the 2nd half looks harder because of the injuries or just in general?
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The run of games from March until Mid April looks extremely difficult, and we need as many points on board before then:
7/3 Leicester away
14/3 Chelsea home
21/3 Newcastle away
4/4 Wolves home
11/4 Liverpool away
18/4 Man U home
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Let's hope we make some astute signings.
I'm hopeful that with a decent midfielder and 2 strikers we'll be fine.
Do you mean the 2nd half looks harder because of the injuries or just in general?
The home fixtures look pretty difficult with only Watford out of the bottom 10 at home.
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The run of games from March until Mid April looks extremely difficult, and we need as many points on board before then:
7/3 Leicester away
14/3 Chelsea home
21/3 Newcastle away
4/4 Wolves home
11/4 Liverpool away
18/4 Man U home
Leicester and Liverpool away are but the others are all beatable.
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The run of games from March until Mid April looks extremely difficult, and we need as many points on board before then:
7/3 Leicester away
14/3 Chelsea home
21/3 Newcastle away
4/4 Wolves home
11/4 Liverpool away
18/4 Man U home
Leicester and Liverpool away are but the others are all beatable.
We have played quite a few beatable teams this season, without beating most of them.
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The run of games from March until Mid April looks extremely difficult, and we need as many points on board before then:
7/3 Leicester away
14/3 Chelsea home
21/3 Newcastle away
4/4 Wolves home
11/4 Liverpool away
18/4 Man U home
Leicester and Liverpool away are but the others are all beatable.
We have played quite a few beatable teams this season, without beating most of them.
That made me chuckle CL :)
A lot of fans as well as the manager/coaches have really underestimated the ability of the opposition this season - in fact I will go so far as saying we've not prepared tactically for the majority of our games .....is that lazy or just down to lack of quality of our coaches/squad?
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The run of games from March until Mid April looks extremely difficult, and we need as many points on board before then:
7/3 Leicester away
14/3 Chelsea home
21/3 Newcastle away
4/4 Wolves home
11/4 Liverpool away
18/4 Man U home
Leicester and Liverpool away are but the others are all beatable.
We have played quite a few beatable teams this season, without beating most of them.
That made me chuckle CL :)
A lot of fans as well as the manager/coaches have really underestimated the ability of the opposition this season - in fact I will go so far as saying we've not prepared tactically for the majority of our games .....is that lazy or just down to lack of quality of our coaches/squad?
I think the manager got stuck, did not know or want to change things until his job was on the line. I am not convinced by the Burnley result because we let them back in second half.
I agree that we have underestimated the opposition.
I think that we go into a tougher second half of the season weaker.
We need the same sort of January transfer activity that help transform our form last season.
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I do fear for us. 3/4 quality additions this January and no further injuries are absolutely crucial.
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Two more away wins and I reckon we'll be o.k. Bournemouth and Newcastle are certainly winnable for me, we are well overdue a win at St James.
Do that and I reckon 10 points from our home games would keep us up. Difficult given some of the teams we're playing but we simply have to step up against the better teams in the league which our relegation rivals seem to have no trouble doing.
Spurs at home for example. They're poor away from home (continued under Mourinho) and Kane will likely be out so that's a game we should be looking at a point minimum from imo.
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By Feb 2 And the break we will have played Brighton A Watford H Bournemouth A..
This will decide our season.
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I really, really, really hope we beat the Gerodies away from home.
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I really, really, really hope we beat the Gerodies away from home.
Gerodies ;)
Yes it would be good to shit on the Magpies and then unfurl a banner dedicated to Ant and Dec " Log on the Tyne" :)
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Norwich gone, now West Ham Burnley Bournemouth Brighton Newcastle Watford and us..
Pick 2 from 7
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I would include Watford in that bunch. Two from seven.
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Other than today and Liverpool away we are capable of getting points from all the remaining games IMHO
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only if we score goals - and for that we need at least one new forward.
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Will Liverpool be champions by the time Villa gets to play them? In the closing weeks, it'll be interesting to see who could potentially be on the beach should we still be in the mire late on.
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Win the big 3 games looming and we're three-quarters safe. Lose them and we can expect relegation. It'll likely fall somewhere in the middle, but as a minimum 4 points from Watford and Bournemouth is needed.
Probably not the most insightful post of all time!
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Will Liverpool be champions by the time Villa gets to play them? In the closing weeks, it'll be interesting to see who could potentially be on the beach should we still be in the mire late on.
They will probably be, but also chasing the best ever points tally and possibly unbeaten.
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I would include Watford in that bunch. Two from seven.
Yes, amended
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Will Liverpool be champions by the time Villa gets to play them? In the closing weeks, it'll be interesting to see who could potentially be on the beach should we still be in the mire late on.
We're actually the game they could beat the Arsenal 49 unbeaten run.
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Will Liverpool be champions by the time Villa gets to play them? In the closing weeks, it'll be interesting to see who could potentially be on the beach should we still be in the mire late on.
We're actually the game they could beat the Arsenal 49 unbeaten run.
Ah good they'd take the draw then !
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Less Worried with the change of formation. With the caveat that we sign better players this window than last. Need a striker far better than Wesley and another winger. Fine in goal and central defense. A better defensive midfielder would be nice too if possible.
Don't make decent signings and back to being worried.
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Burnley gave me a lot of hope. Play like that for the rest of the seasons and make a few good signings, and we will be ok. Starting with 2 strikers
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Well watford for me are not going down
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Watford and Southampton really have had a fantastic winter.
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No longer worried ....just resigned
Poor management, poor recruitment .....fucking awful squad
Dean Smith ...from legend to leg end inside 8 months
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Just fucking raging.
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I think today has killed off our title challenge.
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It is going to be an interesting couple of weeks until the end of January. We have the transfer window, our next three games are all six pointers and there will be constant question marks over our manager.
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I think today has killed off our title challenge.
It might have kick started our Championship title challenge for next season. ;)
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Can we just concede to Leicester please?
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Mightily.
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Bournemouth are in free fall but they will still beat us. We won't beat Watford. We are screwed.
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I think I am teetering somewhere on the brink of worry and resignation.
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This result will break us. We are going down.
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A shot!
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This result will break us. We are going down.
It really shouldn't. West Ham, Southampton and Newcastle all been thrashed this season by Leicester and Man. City and all responded with their best runs of the season.
Would just be another excuse and ways to stop it is always to bring in some fresh faces.
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This match is like those moments in Goodfellas where the action freezes:
That was the moment we knew we were going to get relegated.
That was the moment when Jack Grealish decided he would push for a move to another club in the Summer.
On the bright side, it was more fun in the Championship than this, that's for sure.
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We’ve got two good players and no tactical clue. We’re in a lot of trouble.
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Way too ambitious in the Summer and it may cost us. The signings were based on ideology and not in practicality.
Much like Summer 2015 - the players aren't bad, but you can't integrate that many without a solid unit and expect to get away with it. The squad we went down with were the second worst squad in Premier League history, a few years on and look at Amavi, Gana Gueye, Veretout, Adama and Ayew now. They'd form half of a solid midtable side.
We went for the juggular with our approach, trying to uneaerth gems and refused to take any loans. Imagine another world where we'd have been more pragmatic and looked at Cahill, Phillips and Delph and loned in Wilson and Benteke instead of Engels, Nakamba, Luiz and Trezeguet. We'd have been much better off and given us a solid base to allow the younger and inexperienced players to develop from.
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Way too ambitious in the Summer and it may cost us. The signings were based on ideology and not in practicality.
Much like Summer 2015 - the players aren't bad, but you can't integrate that many without a solid unit and expect to get away with it. The squad we went down with were the second worst squad in Premier League history, a few years on and look at Amavi, Gana Gueye, Veretout, Adama and Ayew now. They'd form half of a solid midtable side.
We went for the juggular with our approach, trying to uneaerth gems and refused to take any loans. Imagine another world where we'd have been more pragmatic and looked at Cahill, Phillips and Delph and loned in Wilson and Benteke instead of Engels, Nakamba, Luiz and Trezeguet. We'd have been much better off and given us a solid base to allow the younger and inexperienced players to develop from.
We really should have pushed the boat out to get Phillips. He is miles better than any of our other midfielders. Agree 100% with you, some of the new signings have potential but we don't have a solid spine in the team that fits it all together.
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We currently have a spine of
Nyland
Mings
Drinkwater
El Ghazi
That isn't even top 6 championship to be honest. 2 out of us, Burnley and Bournemouth will get relegated. We are fannying around signing 37 year olds and playing with no Striker. It doesn't take a genius to work out how this is going to end up.
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Sounds obvious but I honestly think if we get our forward recruiting right in January we’ll be fine. Trouble is all our targets are either getting injured or won’t want to join this current shit show. We’ll be left with the scraps and that’s not going to be good enough.
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This result will break us. We are going down.
It really shouldn't. West Ham, Southampton and Newcastle all been thrashed this season by Leicester and Man. City and all responded with their best runs of the season.
Would just be another excuse and ways to stop it is always to bring in some fresh faces.
Absolutely. We were also garbage against Watford and then won the next game, with a pretty decent performance as well, against Burnley.
Every team gets injuries, so you definitely can’t solely blame them (and our manager should have done more to help the players today and on some other occasions) but we have been particularly unlucky in who has been hit my them. McGinn, Heaton and Wesley are, for different reasons, all absolutely massive losses to a club in our current situation.
The next three weeks will be huge in terms of our season - both in respect of who we are playing and the players we bring in. Get it right and there is absolutely no reason at all that we can’t stay up.
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If folks mean Kalvin Phillips I don't think there's any chance he'd have joined in the summer. Leeds didn't want to sell hence the £30m price tag and he's their Jack, local lad playing for his club since he was a kid, and would have been like Jack was for us last season, 1 last push with his club this season
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Cahill should've been picked up, no excuse on that one considering he was a freebie. Been excellent for Palace as I suspected he would be.
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I'd say its probably 50/50 us staying up, and as someone who had no delusions about the quality of the Bruceball side coming up, I probably would have taken that at the start of the season. The one scrap of comfort after tonight was even though we got handed our arse, there isn't the whiff of decay about the club as there was last time, or the stink of bad eggs coming from the dressing room. Smith needs to develop a siege mentality in the side. stop the defence shipping goals at will, decide his best side/formation and stick with it. Find some sort of vaguely coherant midfield, buy a striker who everyone else has missed who can score 15 goals between now and May...... Easy.
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Cahill should've been picked up, no excuse on that one considering he was a freebie. Been excellent for Palace as I suspected he would be.
Palace play, and more importantly, defend in a completely different way to us though. I’m not sure Cahill playing in our much more wide open team would would have made a huge amount of difference.
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Way too ambitious in the Summer and it may cost us. The signings were based on ideology and not in practicality.
Ideology. That is it. I tried to address this in another thread but that is it.
Sometimes you have to walk before you can run. A first season back of consolidation and steady building would have been what was needed.
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Summer 2019 -
Aston Villa spend £133m
Sheff Utd spend £42m
How much we've spent is almost as alarming as the thought of giving Dean Smith (or whoever buys the players) more money in the January panic.
As a slight aside, JT is supposedly one of the best defenders ever in Premier Leagues - so how come we defend worse than an U11 team? What exactly is he doing?
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I've stopped worrying. The manner of our defeats against Southampton, Watford and today just suggests that we don't have the stomach for a fight, let alone enough talent.
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Way too ambitious in the Summer and it may cost us. The signings were based on ideology and not in practicality.
Ideology. That is it. I tried to address this in another thread but that is it.
Sometimes you have to walk before you can run. A first season back of consolidation and steady building would have been what was needed.
Was it ideology or desperation? I mean even with a blank cheque book no manager wants to bring in 10 plus players at once.. I'm just looking at our team in the Play-off final and its pretty slim pickings for a premier league side. Take out Tuanzebe and Abraham, you've got Mings, McGinn and Grealish as the only players i'd say was the basis of a premier league 1st team. Even with our high spending its a big ask to find 8 premiership quality players and another 5 squad players capable of doing a job.
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Yes, but why were we so ideologically opposed to a couple of loans? Why couldn't we have tried for a premier league standard loan or two? Instead, we went for young players with very little experience - it was, in hindsight, a risk.
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Yes, but why were we so ideologically opposed to a couple of loans? Why couldn't we have tried for a premier league standard loan or two? Instead, we went for young players with very little experience - it was, in hindsight, a risk.
yeah, fair point..
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Personally I think we will go down, so yes worried. I have gone from from positive to despair, over the season. Agree with everyone who has said that the squad & management lack experience. The experiment should stop now, it hasn’t worked. Get Raffa in & give us a chance
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I think if they were going to punt Smith it’s have happened after Watford with an almost full window for the new manager to work with. It won’t happen now, particularly after a drubbing by Citeh. I think he’ll see it out now for better or for worse.
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I think my main concern is the shear lack off tactical ability. This is a genuine question. How many games have we won after going behind? I worry that Dean can’t positively change a game.
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I think my main concern is the shear lack off tactical ability. This is a genuine question. How many games have we won after going behind? I worry that Dean can’t positively change a game.
One. Brighton. After they went down to ten men.
While I agree with the broad point and it’s quite clearly not a good thing, I don’t think it’s untypical of teams in this part of the table. I’ve only had a very quick glance, so apologies if this is wrong, but I believe that none of Norwich, Bournemouth, Watford, West Ham or Burnley have won a single game after going behind.
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Fair enough. I think my primary concern, and clearly less of an issue today as we were dead within 30 mins, but it’s how we just tail off in games so much.
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I really don't think we can cope with teams who press us.
We really struggled v Brighton before they went down to 10 men. Southampton and Watford were two disasters and then add Man. City who can hyper press and have world class players in final third.
Playing physical teams who don't have much technical quality and just hit long diagonals is really the best we can cope with the squad currently, our two best wins this season have been v Newcastle and Burnley arguably and those two are arguably the least technical in the league.
It was the same in the championship when you look at it. We struggled v likes of Leeds and Fulham but could beat the more functional teams quite convincingly.
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I can't see where the next win is going to come from. We have bugger all threat up front and leak goals at the back. It doesn't look good right now and it will also be very difficult attracting a quality striker in our position.
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It’ll obviously be on what we do ourselves whether we stay up or not but, bearing in mind we will need to overhaul a team or two, we are not exactly the only team with issues:
Bournemouth look woeful at the moment
Burnley have scored four goals in their last nine games.
Newcastle have won one of their last six and have loads of injuries
Even Brighton, who I don’t think will go down, have only won two in eleven
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I think it’s 3 out of this 4 for the drop
Bournemouth
Burnley
Norwich
Villa
Watford, Brighton, Spam Southampton will all have to much
Newcastle I thought we’re nailed on to go down but are picking up points and look ok for now but could make it a 3 out of 5
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Right now, Watford look everything that we aren’t. They’ll stay up no problem.
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The problem I have is that Burnley and Bournemouth have a style of play, method , identity and are used to the Premier League.
In comparison we are all over the place and appear to be making it up game to game.
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I've always looked at staying up this season as 'being better than three other teams'. And at various points I've been quite confident of that. The issue at the moment is there are teams I was certain we were better than five weeks ago, who are now chasing mid-table positions, and the teams I think we ARE better than are a few points ahead of us.
The way the teams at the bottom (barring Norwich) seem capable of stringing a few results together suggests we could be looking at the highest total for a relegated side in a few years. Right now I'm not certain 40 points would definitely save us.
The next three games are absolutely huge, 6 points and things will look a LOT healthier, but lose two of them and we'll have lost a lot of ground on the teams above us.
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having no strikers is a massive problem but for me its not the biggest
biggest problem is the fact that the whole team but the midfield in particular treat the ball like a hot coal,
cant control it, cant pass it, rabbits in headlights when they have it, hide away from it, pass it backwards for safety to often, have no confidence on the ball at all, its like we are a bunch of amatures, embarrassing to watch
we can bring in a great striker but it still doesn't get us over that problem
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realistically we need 19 points from 16 games left.Thats 5 wins and 4 draws.
are we really only going to not take anything from 7 games left..............
THATS whats worrying me
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I'm not worried concerned maybe let's see what who we can bring in during this transfer window to help us who we get could be the difference of staying up or going down.
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having no strikers is a massive problem but for me its not the biggest
biggest problem is the fact that the whole team but the midfield in particular treat the ball like a hot coal,
cant control it, cant pass it, rabbits in headlights when they have it, hide away from it, pass it backwards for safety to often, have no confidence on the ball at all, its like we are a bunch of amatures, embarrassing to watch
we can bring in a great striker but it still doesn't get us over that problem
Completely agree, and no closing down either.
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We lack leaders and personality. Heaton, Mings, Jack and McGinn have some of it but we've barely had all 4 of those on the pitch this season. Without it, we're found wanting.
Shouldn't have let Jedinak and Whelan go and kept them and let Lansbury go instead. Even if they wouldn't have played much - one of those two coming on in the games we've been unable to see out or being around the squad would surely have had a positive impact when the heads drop.
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Worried yes but it's not like we are cut adrift, far from it. The other 6 teams in the mix are pretty poor too.
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I think my main concern is the shear lack off tactical ability. This is a genuine question. How many games have we won after going behind? I worry that Dean can’t positively change a game.
One. Brighton. After they went down to ten men.
While I agree with the broad point and it’s quite clearly not a good thing, I don’t think it’s untypical of teams in this part of the table. I’ve only had a very quick glance, so apologies if this is wrong, but I believe that none of Norwich, Bournemouth, Watford, West Ham or Burnley have won a single game after going behind.
That Brighton game is the only one out of the last 53 in which we've gone behind (or conceded first, can't remember which) in the Premier League.
Which backs up your point because we've been at the arse end of this division for the last 10 years we've been in it.
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having no strikers is a massive problem but for me its not the biggest
biggest problem is the fact that the whole team but the midfield in particular treat the ball like a hot coal,
cant control it, cant pass it, rabbits in headlights when they have it, hide away from it, pass it backwards for safety to often, have no confidence on the ball at all, its like we are a bunch of amatures, embarrassing to watch
we can bring in a great striker but it still doesn't get us over that problem
Just add can't throw a ball to our own player from a throw in and I think we've reached 15/16 levels of incompetence.
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McGinn is the leader of our midfield. He chases, protects and tackles. The rest are lightweight.
As for throw ins we've been horrendous at them for as long as I can remember.
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They're going to be horrendous when City have 5 players around the ball and at best we have one or two well shackled players trying to show for it.
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Avoiding relegation was always going to the the main priority with the added difficulty of a manager (I don't rate) with no experience at this level. Pretty much as I expected so not worried.
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As mentioned above, we are far from cut adrift at this point, but my concerns have increased a bit after witnessing that hammering at the weekend.
Although we have picked up a couple of results, performances have not been great for a while now and we just seem to be panicking a bit on the transfer front and adopting a bit of a scattergun approach.
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To me, apart from the next 3 games, there isn't a run of fixtures that will allow us to get on a good run which is a concern. Newcastle away in March is between Leicester, Chelsea, Wolves, Liverpool and Man United. The 'easy' looking games are against in form teams like Southampton and Sheff Utd. We have to hope we can get results v Spurs and Arsenal at home (and maybe Wolves) otherwise it's hard to see us getting 20 points from the last 16.
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To me, apart from the next 3 games, there isn't a run of fixtures that will allow us to get on a good run which is a concern. Newcastle away in March is between Leicester, Chelsea, Wolves, Liverpool and Man United. The 'easy' looking games are against in form teams like Southampton and Sheff Utd. We have to hope we can get results v Spurs and Arsenal at home (and maybe Wolves) otherwise it's hard to see us getting 20 points from the last 16.
As nice as it would be, teams down the bottom of the table don’t tend to go on that much of a good run. Of the bottom eight teams only West Ham, at the start of the season, and Watford recently have really had anything approaching a good run. Think the best any of the others have managed is 2-3 games unbeaten.
Our wins probably will be fairly sporadic for the remainder of the season as will be the case with most struggling teams. I do agree that we need a few ‘unexpected’ results in order to give us the best chance of staying up.
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What does worry me is that we haven't yet won a game that others around us will think 'fuck', such as Watford beating Yernited, Southampton at Leicester etc etc. We are extremely predictable when it comes to games we don't expect to win - we don't. That has to change.
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And SOuthampton have hit a purple patch. 2nd on to Lpool at the moment
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Oh for those heady days of 10 wins in a row, we can't string 10 passes in a row these days.
As many others have pointed out, these next 3 league games are everything, 6 points has to be the absolute bare minimum, I'd prefer 7 and but absolutely over the moon with 9. Imagine that, 3 wins on the trot.
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Oh for those heady days of 10 wins in a row, we can't string 10 passes in a row these days.
As many others have pointed out, these next 3 league games are everything, 6 points has to be the absolute bare minimum, I'd prefer 7 and but absolutely over the moon with 9. Imagine that, 3 wins on the trot.
I wonder when we last did that in the top division.
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John Gregory? Or was that just an unbeaten run?
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Oh for those heady days of 10 wins in a row, we can't string 10 passes in a row these days.
As many others have pointed out, these next 3 league games are everything, 6 points has to be the absolute bare minimum, I'd prefer 7 and but absolutely over the moon with 9. Imagine that, 3 wins on the trot.
I wonder when we last did that in the top division.
2010.
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Oh for those heady days of 10 wins in a row, we can't string 10 passes in a row these days.
As many others have pointed out, these next 3 league games are everything, 6 points has to be the absolute bare minimum, I'd prefer 7 and but absolutely over the moon with 9. Imagine that, 3 wins on the trot.
I wonder when we last did that in the top division.
2010.
10 fucking years.
That's disgraceful but shows just what we're having to come back from. We are a long term project.
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We have to get at least draws against Brighton and Watford and beat Bournemouth.
Just to stay in touch, any worse and I thing we are done and any better will give us a fighting chance.
It’s pretty desperate now.
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We have to get at least draws against Brighton and Watford and beat Bournemouth.
Just to stay in touch, any worse and I thing we are done and any better will give us a fighting chance.
It’s pretty desperate now.
I know it feels desperate, but we're only 1 point off safety and have suffered some really bad luck both in terms of decisions and injuries in getting into this position. It was always going to be a tough season and realistically somewhere between 15-20th was always on the cards. It still is.
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A point Saturday would be good, although a win would really flush Man City out the system.
We have to be looking to beat Watford and I think Bournemouth away is the most winnable of the lot.
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Watford game at Tranmere tonight in the cup replay has been called off. New date is Thursday 23rd. We are supposed to play them on Tuesday the 21st. It may get moved.
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Watford game at Tranmere tonight in the cup replay has been called off. New date is Thursday 23rd. We are supposed to play them on Tuesday the 21st. It may get moved.
That's potentially good news - gives us time to get the new strike force in place and "Drinky" up to match fitness
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Watford game at Tranmere tonight in the cup replay has been called off. New date is Thursday 23rd. We are supposed to play them on Tuesday the 21st. It may get moved.
That's potentially good news - gives us time to get the new strike force in place and "Drinky" up to match fitness
Too soon to lock the thread?
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Watford game at Tranmere tonight in the cup replay has been called off. New date is Thursday 23rd. We are supposed to play them on Tuesday the 21st. It may get moved.
They've picked that date in knowledge of the league fixtures. Surely they wouldn't move our game at that short notice?
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It's definitely staying as the 21st the FA insisted on the replay 23rd to get sorted before the 4th round.
Won't affect us much as Pearson has already stated the cup is not important compared to staying up.
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Brighton stayed up with 36 points last time so even 40 points in 16 games - 1.2 points per game - is extremely gettable. I'm also not convinced that teams like Watford and Southampton have turned it round. Possibly a bit of new manager bounce in the case of the former.
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Oh for those heady days of 10 wins in a row, we can't string 10 passes in a row these days.
As many others have pointed out, these next 3 league games are everything, 6 points has to be the absolute bare minimum, I'd prefer 7 and but absolutely over the moon with 9. Imagine that, 3 wins on the trot.
I'd be happy with 5 personally.
Point at Brighton is obviously good on the back of an awful defeat. While it would be great boost to beat Watford at home you have to accept they're most inform team outside of top 2 and we could easily lose that.
Bournemouth is the critical one. We really need a win there otherwise things will start to get pretty difficult.
Anyway 5 points would put us on 26 points with still 13 games left. We could only then need 3 wins and a couple of draws to stay up.
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We have to get at least draws against Brighton and Watford and beat Bournemouth.
Just to stay in touch, any worse and I thing we are done and any better will give us a fighting chance.
It’s pretty desperate now.
We'd be clear of bottom 3 if we got 5 points I think. Obviously keeps Bournemouth down below us and West Ham have Everton, Leicester and Liverpool as their next 3 so can't see much there although like so many they can pull off a shock result from time to time.
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9 would be infinitely preferable.
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9 would be infinitely preferable.
Feels like we last won three in a row at this level when Pongo Waring was still leading the line so wouldn't hold your breath on that one lee!
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John Gregory might beg to differ.
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John Gregory might beg to differ.
We didn’t appreciate when we had it good.
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John Gregory might beg to differ.
Nearly twenty years ago under JG, scary how quickly time flies. Leeds at home in the cup was one of my all time favourite matches, that was in Jan 2000 (Carbone hatrick/Merse spilling blood).
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I'm worried about this weekend if I'm honest, Brighton were well drilled when they came to Villa Park earlier in the season and arguably should have got at least a point, we were full strength and scraped a win in the 94th minute.
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I wouldn't say we scraped a win, when we had a perfectly good goal disallowed and they scored from a ludicrous free kick. I still think they're not a bad side, though. Webster is about the best defender I've seen at Villa Park this season. It's a struggle to find three rubbish teams to finish below us, to be honest.
Maybe we were hasty in laughing when Blose went down.
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I wouldn't say we scraped a win, when we bad a perfectly good goal disallowed and they scored from a ludicrous free kick. I still think they're not a bad side, though. Webster is about the best defender I've seen at Villa Park this season. It's a struggle to find three rubbish teams to finish below us, to be honest.
Maybe we were hasty in laughing when Blose went down.
Ah yes, I forgot about that VAR decision, you just know Maupay will grab a brace Saturday.
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We've got to get 6 from 6 in the next two or I think we might as well start bracing for the Championship. Trouble is, Watford have vastly improved under Pearson and Brighton look fairly safe and pretty well drilled. We looked like we'd twigged a system and finally knew how to organise ourselves, but that's all gone to fuckery of the City game. You can excuse losing to them given our injuries, but in that manner? It was utterly clueless. It just felt like we'd dick drilled ourselves firmly back into square one.
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I wouldn't say we scraped a win, when we bad a perfectly good goal disallowed and they scored from a ludicrous free kick. I still think they're not a bad side, though. Webster is about the best defender I've seen at Villa Park this season. It's a struggle to find three rubbish teams to finish below us, to be honest.
Maybe we were hasty in laughing when Blose went down.
Ah yes, I forgot about that VAR decision, you just know Maupay will grab a brace Saturday.
That VAR decison was just absolute bollocks.
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We've got to get 6 from 6 in the next two or I think we might as well start bracing for the Championship. Trouble is, Watford have vastly improved under Pearson and Brighton look fairly safe and pretty well drilled. We looked like we'd twigged a system and finally knew how to organise ourselves, but that's all gone to fuckery of the City game. You can excuse losing to them given our injuries, but in that manner? It was utterly clueless. It just felt like we'd dick drilled ourselves firmly back into square one.
We'll struggle to get 2 points I reckon.
I'm not sure why we need 6 points from next two. otherwise it means instant relegation though. West Ham's next three are Everton and Liverpool at home and Leicester away. They could easily take just 1 point from that so we could just beat Bournemouth and go above them and be back up to 17th.
Bournemouth is surely the biggest must win in next few weeks. They are below us and playing terribly so vital to me we go there and win and feasibly finish them off so just one more team to finish above.
If we can be up to 25 points by end of that game, take a point off Spurs and then get 4 off Sheffield United-Southampton then we'd have 30 points by start of March and so can then stay up taking less than a point a game given they'd be 10 left.
If people don't believe after the window closes we wouldn't be capable of taking points off the teams I've mentioned then I wonder what the point is of signing players as clearly they wouldn't be better than ones we've currently got.
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Worried and losing confidence/getting frustrated in the management team particularly with the much needed transfer activity...I’m fickle though and that can easily be changed with a few wins and decent signings that will show that we can stay in this division.
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To stay in we need forwards and we haven't got any. Trying to solve a problem in two weeks that should have been addressed in the summer is madness.
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I must admit I thought as we all did after missing out on another striker in the summer we’d have already had a number of players lined up ready for contact as soon as January started, it does seem we hadn’t. It seemed a huge priority before Wes was injured even if he was playing very well and scoring, now it’s crucial. That lack of forward planning seems a bit naive from the management. I did think we’d have been far more progressive and ruthless now we have this new set up in place.
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I must admit I thought as we all did after missing out on another striker in the summer we’d have already had a number of players lined up ready for contact as soon as January started, it does seem we hadn’t. It seemed a huge priority before Wes was injured even if he was playing very well and scoring, now it’s crucial. That lack of forward planning seems a bit naive from the management. I did think we’d have been far more progressive and ruthless now we have this new set up in place.
We absolutely would have had plans and targets. And back up plans. And probably plan C, D, E etc.
It’s not just as straightforward as that though. And plans can fall apart quite easily/quickly. It’s not unlikely that because there are a reduced amount of players available that several clubs target the same players, so that takes time. Plus players may well wait to later in the window to see if they get other/better offers.
Then you have the additional complication that we have now that it is blindly obvious we are desperate for a CF so clubs will, being businesses, increase the price or delay the process thinking we get more desperate and pay more money.
As we have seen with Drinkwater and Reina, the players that are readily available come with conditions - not match fit, declining ability, can’t get into their current team.
Couple all that with the fact that (and I don’t know enough about FFP so happy to be corrected if I’m wrong here) it seems that we are not in a position to spend loads of money/overpay to force a solution and patience is going to be key here - as much as this forum probably won’t like it!
January is a pretty difficult window anyway even before we picked up three key injuries right at the start of it. The fact that we have managed to replace two of them pretty quickly (if you’re prepared to reserve judgement on those players a little!) isn’t bad going. Don’t think we can judge the club too harshly until we see what they have done by the end of the window.
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Agree. But bloody hell we need someone of quality up front.
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We certainly do and now McGinn is injured that is such a key area.
I understand that Luke, it's just very frustrating. I was just hoping I suppose with this new backroom set-up of scouts and directors of football and with very rich owners we might have been a bit more aggressive and forceful when the window opened in January. Maybe we have been and are as we talk, who knows, all we have heard is rumours and paper talk.
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Realistically who can we finish above? I’d go Norwich, Bournemouth and Newcastle, who could get dragged back into it.
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We certainly do and now McGinn is injured that is such a key area.
I understand that Luke, it's just very frustrating. I was just hoping I suppose with this new backroom set-up of scouts and directors of football and with very rich owners we might have been a bit more aggressive and forceful when the window opened in January. Maybe we have been and are as we talk, who knows, all we have heard is rumours and paper talk.
Oh, I complete understand people being frustrated. I just think it’s easy to underestimate from the outside what a tricky job it can be sometimes. The new set up/staff addition have only been in place for a short time period really and it’s pretty widely agreed that they we working from a point where we have been badly run for pretty much a decade.
The huge rebuilding job in the summer will obviously have had an influence on what we are able to do this month as well.
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Realistically who can we finish above? I’d go Norwich, Bournemouth and Newcastle, who could get dragged back into it.
I don’t think you can categorically rule out anyone from Newcastle down really. Some are less likely obviously, but all have their flaws/reasons for being in the position that they currently are.
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West Ham, Watford and Burnley could all get dragged down...
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Realistically who can we finish above? I’d go Norwich, Bournemouth and Newcastle, who could get dragged back into it.
Burnley too.
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We certainly do and now McGinn is injured that is such a key area.
I understand that Luke, it's just very frustrating. I was just hoping I suppose with this new backroom set-up of scouts and directors of football and with very rich owners we might have been a bit more aggressive and forceful when the window opened in January. Maybe we have been and are as we talk, who knows, all we have heard is rumours and paper talk.
Oh, I complete understand people being frustrated. I just think it’s easy to underestimate from the outside what a tricky job it can be sometimes. The new set up/staff addition have only been in place for a short time period really and it’s pretty widely agreed that they we working from a point where we have been badly run for pretty much a decade.
The huge rebuilding job in the summer will obviously have had an influence on what we are able to do this month as well.
It is a huge job, it's massive I agree. There has been so much to change and there still is probably. I hope the new owners and staff do know what they are doing. We've been there so many times now which doesn't help everyones nerves and confidence in that department. I'm sure if Big Wes hit the ground running and the team in general didn't have that dip in form from November we'd all be a lot less nervous and frustrated. I'd include the players in that statement too. If only we hadn't of collapsed against Liverpool, I wonder how we would have gone on from there.
In hindsight signing Maupay, even for the silly money stated would have been money very well spent, but you know what they say about hindsight.
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Realistically who can we finish above? I’d go Norwich, Bournemouth and Newcastle, who could get dragged back into it.
Burnley too.
I hope so, but let's face it, all those clubs will also be definitely listing us as an obvious target they can finish above. Three teams have to go down, and we are one of the favourites. I spend far too long thinking about other clubs' prospects and results which is a sure sign of how poorly we are doing.
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Not worried at all. Simply resigned to what is currently looking like the inevitable.
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Not good enough. The management team are the problem.
If we had sacked him in December I fancy we would be doing better now. The players haven't really been at the level they were at up to December.
Relegation this time is even worse - after all the optimism of having better owners than we had when the arse fell out of the club in 2010.
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Not worried at all. Simply resigned to what is currently looking like the inevitable.
Same, felt that way for a while.
I think Watford will finish us off on Tuesday and that will be all she wrote.
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Two defeats, today and v Watford, I don’t see how we can or will stop that. Hasn’t happened yet, gulp!
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That point was important, but fucking hell we need to be so so much better.
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As we are now i think we're down. It's going to be nigh on impossible to win a game without a striker. So much depends on who we get in.
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Game last 90 minutes.
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I think it's going to take 40 points this season rather than the recent years total 38.
5 wins
3 draws
7 defeats
From our last 15, or 6 wins and 9 defeats to put it a less likely way.
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Hard to see how we’re not cattle trucked, but you never know.
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We need fluky results like the Tyneside man babies just did. I’m drowning self in real ale and it has given me a dodo-esque hope I can peck the hunters to death tomorrow belief. Maybe get drinkenwasser to get our squad pissed and we might play better.
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We need fluky results like the Tyneside man babies just did. I’m drowning self in real ale and it has given me a dodo-esque hope I can peck the hunters to death tomorrow belief. Maybe get drinkenwasser to get our squad pissed and we might play better.
Whilst that analysis is clearly based on the real ale consumption, I think that is a very lucid examination of our position. Except it should be Trinkenwasser.
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We need fluky results like the Tyneside man babies just did. I’m drowning self in real ale and it has given me a dodo-esque hope I can peck the hunters to death tomorrow belief. Maybe get drinkenwasser to get our squad pissed and we might play better.
Whilst that analysis is clearly based on the real ale consumption, I think that is a very lucid examination of our position. Except it should be Trinkenwasser.
Lol! I’m two pints in and already forgotten my schoolboy German. But give me a few more pints and I will be putting everything to rights!
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That loss for Southampton today could be a momentum killer. Each and every one of the bottom half teams are average/poor, you could make an argument for any of them to go down. Next two games define our season I think. Need four points minimum.
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Less worried this morning, more resigned to it.
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Burnley winning is a bit of a fuck.
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Burnley winning is a bit of a fuck.
They finished strong today. Leicester seem to be running on fumes a bit.
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There's a worrying thing. Clubs around us digging out a result against top half sides. You just dont see us doing it. We're just glad to get a point against Brighton.
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To be fair, we also dug out a result against Leicester recently, to set up a second league that nobody wants to win.
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There's a worrying thing. Clubs around us digging out a result against top half sides. You just dont see us doing it. We're just glad to get a point against Brighton.
Which is when Smith comes out with stuff like losing to City won't define our season its pretty much bollocks , as we have just seen Burnley and Newcastle have taken 3 points off the teams 2nd and 4th in the league , we won't stay up if we have the mindset we just need to beat those around us
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Have to win the next 2. If we can’t beat teams around us then we don’t have a much of a chance vs better opposition. And 6 points would be very useful.
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Bollocks to the other teams.
What worries me is how poor we are. There needs to be a big change.
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No win from the next 2 games doesn't bear thinking about.
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If you're relying on others then you're done for.
We need 4 or 5 more wins and a smattering of draws to take us to the extra 18 points needed to be sure. We could be half way there by 17:00 on the 1st February.
If you're going on Tuesday, then play your part. Park the frustrations and let's make a racket.
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It just feels like we cannot get catch a break. Other seasons it used to feel like you could rely on their being teams who wouldn't get wins. This season, we needed a year like that and instead find that nobody else really looks done.
It is irritating to say the least.
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I think we have get a win and a draw out of the next 2 just to stay in touch, anything less and we will start to need snookers.
It’s not looking good.
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Win on Tuesday and the picture changes. One game at a time!
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We just have to win some games, the Brighton draw was decent,nothing more, nothing worth celebrating, we need to beat some teams.
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Positive is away form is slowly improving with easier run of games than we had in first half of the season. We've just won on a ground Leicester lost at and also got 1-1 at Brighton, same as Chelsea did on NYD.
To have a serious chance of staying up Bournemouth is a must win. Then if we can add 4 points from Southampton and Newcastle visits (we are long overdue a win at St James Park) then we might only need 10 points from the home games to stay up.
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Win on Tuesday and the picture changes. One game at a time!
Couldn't agree more about one game at a time.
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If it carries on at this rate there could be 6 teams facing the drop on the last day of the season. And we are at west ham.
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The loss of McGinn is a huge factor at the moment. Smith needs an enforcer type like Nzonzi in the middle. Drinkwater is nowhere near adequate as a replacement.
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Less worried this morning, more resigned to it.
I'm heading that way. I actually don't think we're as bad as we pretend to be but when you can't get the basics right, you know you're in trouble. I'm struggling to think of a team that play worse football than us. One thing is not having a striker, it's another when you can't see anything constructive behind the non-existent striker. Tactics are as poor as anything over the last 10 years, other than give it to Jack. Second worst defence in the league, one goal less than Norwich. Put that on your CV, John Terry. Most worrying is the lack of fight. Other than Jack, nobody seems to want to take any responsibility. Maybe they think we're too big to go down. We're not.
One thing I grew up with was a Villa team that would give everything and fight until the final whistle. Yesterday second half I saw a glimpse of that mentality. Hopefully we'll see a hell of a lot more of it before the end of the season. Wishful thinking? Probably.
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Worried by the fact we are in the bottom three at this stage of the season but heartened by the fact we have time and are in touching distance of Watford, West Ham and Brighton and not too far adrift of Burnley, Southampton and Newcastle.
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Not getting results from any of the top 10 is disappointing and as for the "winnable" games - we aren't winning enough of them
It's still all to play for obviously but I am of the opinion that the lack of a settled well drilled unit will see us stay in the bottom three - the turnover from the end of May into the new season is taking its toll - exacerbated by a lack of direction , injuries, poor tactics and some players not caring enough
,
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Playing Bournemouth twice!!!
Safe as houses.
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::)
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So let’s pick the 6 games we need to win.
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It's going to take quite a change in fortune to attain another 18 points ....every game looks tough
All the pre season optimism has deserted me !!
The manager (coach) and players really need to up the game massively .......My concern is that most other clubs seem to be able to clearly identify our weaknesses and take advantage of them whilst we seem less able to do that ourselves .....
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The more I look at our last fixture of the season - away at Wet Spam - the more it looks like a massive game that could mean survival or bust for either team. Or not, since they have a game in hand... but I just have a feeling.
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The more I look at our last fixture of the season - away at Wet Spam - the more it looks like a massive game that could mean survival or bust for either team. Or not, since they have a game in hand... but I just have a feeling.
I'm half hoping it is one of those where a draw suits both teams.
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It's going to take quite a change in fortune to attain another 18 points ....every game looks tough
All the pre season optimism has deserted me !!
The manager (coach) and players really need to up the game massively .......My concern is that most other clubs seem to be able to clearly identify our weaknesses and take advantage of them whilst we seem less able to do that ourselves .....
We've taken 7 points from our last 5 league games, which extrapolated over the rest of the season would leave us with mid 40s and comfortably mid-table.
As for West Ham, their game in hand is against Liverpool.
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Surely for once we'll actually give Manure and Arsenal a game at VP. Both are in transition, even Chelsea whose away form is better than home, are still not exactly something to fear.
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It's going to take quite a change in fortune to attain another 18 points ....every game looks tough
All the pre season optimism has deserted me !!
The manager (coach) and players really need to up the game massively .......My concern is that most other clubs seem to be able to clearly identify our weaknesses and take advantage of them whilst we seem less able to do that ourselves .....
We've taken 7 points from our last 5 league games, which extrapolated over the rest of the season would leave us with mid 40s and comfortably mid-table.
As for West Ham, their game in hand is against Liverpool.
I hope your extrapolation becomes reality Ads, I really do :)
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So let’s pick the 6 games we need to win.
While you’re at it pick the six games all of the other teams in the bottom eight need to win.
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It's going to take quite a change in fortune to attain another 18 points ....every game looks tough
All the pre season optimism has deserted me !!
The manager (coach) and players really need to up the game massively .......My concern is that most other clubs seem to be able to clearly identify our weaknesses and take advantage of them whilst we seem less able to do that ourselves .....
We've taken 7 points from our last 5 league games, which extrapolated over the rest of the season would leave us with mid 40s and comfortably mid-table.
As for West Ham, their game in hand is against Liverpool.
I'll take a rerun of that pivotal 90/91 fixture.
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It's going to take quite a change in fortune to attain another 18 points ....every game looks tough
All the pre season optimism has deserted me !!
The manager (coach) and players really need to up the game massively .......My concern is that most other clubs seem to be able to clearly identify our weaknesses and take advantage of them whilst we seem less able to do that ourselves .....
We've taken 7 points from our last 5 league games, which extrapolated over the rest of the season would leave us with mid 40s and comfortably mid-table.
As for West Ham, their game in hand is against Liverpool.
We've also taken 7 points from the last 9 games and using those figures doesn't work so well. Also if you extrapolate just 1 point against the top 10 thus far, it doesn't look good, bearing in mind that we have to play 9 of them again, albeit 7 of them at home.
So stats can be read a number of ways.
Smith says that our season isn't going to be defined by our results against the top teams, but the opposite could be true, and with that way of thinking, we are just giving those teams a free pass against us.
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So let’s pick the 6 games we need to win.
While you’re at it pick the six games all of the other teams in the bottom eight need to win.
Why does a team like Southampton with six more points than us need the same amount of wins?
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I've amended now as moved Bournemouth up to easiest away fixture left
Home fixtures in difficultly level don't seem impossible
Watford
Spurs
Man Utd
Arsenal
Palace
Wolves
Sheffield Utd
Chelsea
Wolves is the toughest game there for me. All the others perfectly winnable.
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It's going to take quite a change in fortune to attain another 18 points ....every game looks tough
All the pre season optimism has deserted me !!
The manager (coach) and players really need to up the game massively .......My concern is that most other clubs seem to be able to clearly identify our weaknesses and take advantage of them whilst we seem less able to do that ourselves .....
We've taken 7 points from our last 5 league games, which extrapolated over the rest of the season would leave us with mid 40s and comfortably mid-table.
As for West Ham, their game in hand is against Liverpool.
We've also taken 7 points from the last 9 games and using those figures doesn't work so well. Also if you extrapolate just 1 point against the top 10 thus far, it doesn't look good, bearing in mind that we have to play 9 of them again, albeit 7 of them at home.
So stats can be read a number of ways.
Smith says that our season isn't going to be defined by our results against the top teams, but the opposite could be true, and with that way of thinking, we are just giving those teams a free pass against us.
Think he said our season wouldn’t be defined by games against Man City, after last weeks battering, not all the top teams, maybe I have that wrong.
Either way, we don’t know know how the second half of the season will pan out. To me on current form it looks like Norwich and Bournemouth are going to go, with the last place between us, Brighton, Burnley, possibly Watford and possibly West Ham. But one or two teams could get a couple of wins and confidence and go on a run. Hopefully that will be us starting on tuesday.
I still think despite their win yesterday, Newcastle are capable of losing another 4 or 5vin a row & being dragged into this. Also whatever the performance yesterday it was a much better result for us than Brighton
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Surely for once we'll actually give Manure and Arsenal a game at VP. Both are in transition, even Chelsea whose away form is better than home, are still not exactly something to fear.
Bournmouth , Newcastle and West Ham all have wins V Chelsea so we shouldn't fear them ...or though in the away game they won fairly easily.
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There's no point picking 'must wins.' We'll lose games we should win but hopefully pick up points we don't expect. Newcastle & Buŕnley wouldn't have been expecting 3 points this weekend and we need to pick up a few results like that if we hope to survive.
Right now we're 1 point for safety whilst navigating a period of massive disruption due to injuries. Hopefully we'll have new players in place over the next two weeks and will hit a decent run in Feb or March. It's going to be tight, but then it always was. But the fat lass is a long way from singing yet.
Up the fucking Villa.
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Draw the next two and maybe 4 more wins with a draw or two may yet be enough? (based on thinking, last week, that we needed about 5-6 wins)
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All this predicting how many we need, remember the same applies to the other teams in and around it too.
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All this predicting how many we need, remember the same applies to the other teams in and around it too.
It's natural, it has always been a thing. When the league had more clubs the target used to be 40 points.
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I've amended now as moved Bournemouth up to easiest away fixture left
Home fixtures in difficultly level don't seem impossible
Watford
Spurs
Man Utd
Arsenal
Palace
Wolves
Sheffield Utd
Chelsea
Wolves is the toughest game there for me. All the others perfectly winnable.
What could help is playing some of them around europa league ties. Two of those will probably go deep in the competition so they'll focus on that rather than premier league.
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I think we will be the one below the line, which I think might be 42 points this season. My biggest worry is what that will leave us with squad wise in the Championship next season. Without Jack, Mings and McGinn for sure. Heaton with the injury is likely to be here but we have Steer anyway. Beyond that I think most of the rest would stay, and we would have a very strong side in the championship. I think my biggest reason to want to stay up it to have a shot at keeping Jack though. Losing him will be the most gut wrenching of any of the ones we have lost over the years.
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I'm officially worried. Really worried, in fact I'm deeply concerned enough to visit this thread for the first time. I had hoped I'd never have to.
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We’re done let’s face it nearly all of the players brought into the squad are either too early in their development to be good enough or just not good enough.
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Fair play we pulled it out of the fire. Douglas has to play in a more advanced role.
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Nope.
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Sitting on the fence and leaning towards the still mildly concerned side.
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Watford, bournemouth, west ham brighton, burnley, newcastle and Everton will all be worried
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10 points out of 18 is a more than decent run.
I'm officially less worried.
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Still worried but with more hope than before that game. A massive win.
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Wow. Everything looks better now. Usually, 25 points now would feel 'safe'. What a crazy season.
3-4 wins and 2-3 draws may still be enough though?
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Taken:
6 points from Norwich
4 points from Burnley
4 points from Brighton
3 points from Watford.... not bad at all.
If we can take points from teams like Everton away, Newcastle away, Bournemouth away, Palace at home, Sheff Utd at home and maybe Wolves at home...the new striker could be massive.
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I take it I'm not the only one to notice we've actually won more league games than Arsenal now.
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I’d love it, love it, if Watford and Burnley went down. The shithousing bastards.
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Since we're now all officially worried how about renaming this to "The Worriers Thread"?
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West Ham have 2 games in hand .....but they are Leicester away and Liverpool at home .
They have a six pointer v Brighton at home - draw might suit us in that
Then they have Man City away and Liverpool away.
They should be well entrenched in bottom 3 by end of Feb I hope
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I take it I'm not the only one to notice we've actually won more league games than Arsenal now.
The league is weird this season.
Southampton were below us, in the bottom three, a month ago. They are three points off fifth place tonight.
We have the same record over the last twelve games as Chelsea. Yet they still sit (fairly) comfortably in fourth.
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In the first Lambert season, we lost 2-1 to Newcastle at home in our 24th game on 29th January 2013. It was a loss but it was the night where it felt as though we were recovering and could fight our way out.We sat 19th, on 20 points after 24 games. We finished on 41 points
Tonight, we have just beaten a relegation rival, with a good performance to boot and a new striker to come in, to move to 25 points after 24 games and sit in 16th.
We can absolutely get out of this- keep the points ticking over any chance we get. Believe.
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Wow. Everything looks better now. Usually, 25 points now would feel 'safe'. What a crazy season.
3-4 wins and 2-3 draws may still be enough though?
Wow. Everything looks better now. Usually, 25 points now would feel 'safe'. What a crazy season.
3-4 wins and 2-3 draws may still be enough though?
Agree, typical that this season there's no clear relegation certainties. Brighton stayed up with 36 points last season. I don't think that will be enough this year. 40 points minimum in a crazy league!
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35, 34, 35, 38, 36, 34, 37, 37, 40, 31, 35, 36, 38, 35 and 34.
Those are the points totals required to.sirgove over the past 15 years. It shows how rare it is that you need 40 points.
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35, 34, 35, 38, 36, 34, 37, 37, 40, 31, 35, 36, 38, 35 and 34.
Those are the points totals required to.sirgove over the past 15 years. It shows how rare it is that you need 40 points.
I’m going for 38 this time
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It’s rather stating the obvious but goal difference has a direct correlation with league position (with the exception of freak high scoring results like Southampton). Our current league position is about right with West Ham only being below us with better GD and 2 games in hand. Keep it tight at the back and score more goals then we’ll edge away from the bottom three...hopefully Reina, Samatta and another forward will help to address that. Football isn’t rocket science.
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We have to follow this up with a result at Bournemouth, a draw at a minimum.
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I’d love it, love it, if Watford and Burnley went down. The shithousing bastards.
Agree, spoiling tactics from both from the off.
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Leicester away and Liverpool at home should hopefully dent West Ham's goal difference.
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Need to get a few more point on the board before shit tough run at the end of March early April.
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West Ham have 2 games in hand .....but they are Leicester away and Liverpool at home .
They have a six pointer v Brighton at home - draw might suit us in that
Then they have Man City away and Liverpool away.
They should be well entrenched in bottom 3 by end of Feb I hope
Ah but are you taking into account the David "It's what I do. I win" Moyes effect?
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Still a long way to go, but I feel a lot more positive than I did after the Southampton game, where having lost three on the bounce after the Old Trafford game I thought we'd lost any momentum we had. As it stands, we're 7th in the form table (for the last 6 games), three of which we've played without a striker in the team. Yes, apart from Man City we've only played teams in and around us in those games, but getting points on the table is a good habit to get into. Three more at Bournemouth and things start looked a LOT healthier.
There are going to be a lot more ups and downs, we'll lose games we should win, and we'll likely win games we wouldn't expect. Everyone at the bottom is capable of winning games (the only team not to have won one of the last five is Palace), and I still suspect someone could get relegated over 40 points this season. The target has to be mid-forties, which is doable if we can keep our current form over the last six games.
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Looking forward to winning games we didn’t expect.
Not happened yet
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Looking forward to winning games we didn’t expect.
Not happened yet
To be fair I don't think many expected to win at Burnley or to beat Watford yesterday given the abject form and lack of a striker. The results have picked up a bit even if the performances haven't.
Be nice to get back to expecting to beat dross like Burnley and Newcastle though. Although I get what you mean, a result against one of the better teams would be most welcome.
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Looking forward to winning games we didn’t expect.
Not happened yet
To be fair I don't think many expected to win at Burnley or to beat Watford yesterday given the abject form and lack of a striker. The results have picked up a bit even if the performances haven't.
Be nice to get back to expecting to beat dross like Burnley and Newcastle though. Although I get what you mean, a result against one of the better teams would be most welcome.
You say performances haven’t improved, but we look and feel more solid since we have gone to three at the back. We certainly aren’t giving away the same volume and quality of chances that we were previously (Man City aberration aside).
I get that we haven’t put in a really good whole team performance yet, but given it’s a new formation and we have been playing without a striker, I’ve been relatively pleased with how we have done and imagine we will improve further going forward.
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Looking forward to winning games we didn’t expect.
Not happened yet
To be fair I don't think many expected to win at Burnley or to beat Watford yesterday given the abject form and lack of a striker. The results have picked up a bit even if the performances haven't.
Be nice to get back to expecting to beat dross like Burnley and Newcastle though. Although I get what you mean, a result against one of the better teams would be most welcome.
He means the so-called bigger and/or better and or much higher placed teams in the league. Everybody else has a win against them, eg:
Burnley - beat Leicester
Norwich - beat Man City
Bournemouth - beat Man U and Chelsea
Watford - beat Man U and Wolves
Brighton - beat Spurs and Arsenal
West Ham - beat Man U and Chelsea
Now it doesn't really matter who we beat, as long as we finish above three other teams, but a win or two against a couple of those sorts of teams would make our job a whole lot easier, as we've got a fairly difficult run in.
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Looking forward to winning games we didn’t expect.
Not happened yet
To be fair I don't think many expected to win at Burnley or to beat Watford yesterday given the abject form and lack of a striker. The results have picked up a bit even if the performances haven't.
Be nice to get back to expecting to beat dross like Burnley and Newcastle though. Although I get what you mean, a result against one of the better teams would be most welcome.
He means the so-called bigger and/or better and or much higher placed teams in the league. Everybody else has a win against them, eg:
Burnley - beat Leicester
Norwich - beat Man City
Bournemouth - beat Man U and Chelsea
Watford - beat Man U and Wolves
Brighton - beat Spurs and Arsenal
West Ham - beat Man U and Chelsea
Now it doesn't really matter who we beat, as long as we finish above three other teams, but a win or two against a couple of those sorts of teams would make our job a whole lot easier, as we've got a fairly difficult run in.
We just need to repeat the 5-0 v Liverpool........ ;-)
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Sheff U and Palarse at home look like the only traditional fixtures left where you'd say we'd be underperforming to come away with less than three points.
But Chris Wilder seems to have the Indian sign over Smith and I don't see that as a home banker at all. And Palarse are doing better than expected this year.
There will never be a better time to do Arsenal and Man U at home.
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I think we will knock one or two of them over. We have to play all of United, Spurs, Chelsea and Arsenal (and Wolves) at home.
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I think we will knock one or two of them over. We have to play all of United, Spurs, Chelsea and Arsenal (and Wolves) at home.
I could be wrong but has Mourhino ever beaten us at home over the years?
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I think we will knock one or two of them over. We have to play all of United, Spurs, Chelsea and Arsenal (and Wolves) at home.
I could be wrong but has Mourhino ever beaten us at home over the years?
Once in 14/15, Lambert's final home game.
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We've got to get points against Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea at home this season, they're genuinely that great.
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I take it I'm not the only one to notice we've actually won more league games than Arsenal now.
I hadn't!
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I take it I'm not the only one to notice we've actually won more league games than Arsenal now.
I hadn't!
And only one win fewer than Sheff Utd who everyone seems to agree are having a great season. They're basically much better at getting draws than us.
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I take it I'm not the only one to notice we've actually won more league games than Arsenal now.
I hadn't!
And only one win fewer than Sheff Utd who everyone seems to agree are having a great season. They're basically much better at getting draws than us.
But that's a more significant feat than we're letting on, in reality.
There are teams in this league with a lot of steel who are good at seeing out games against better opposition, or under the cosh away from home, at which we're very poor.
It's been mentioned we have more wins than Arsenal, but their performance this week is a good example of something we wouldn't be able to do - despite struggling to bed-in a new style of play at the moment, and missing their best player through injury, even after going down to 10 men halfway through the 1st half they managed to claw back a game (twice) against a decent team in Chelsea. That's something we'd be incapable of doing with 10 men and without our best player (Grealish). Can you imagine.
Our game management is really poor. The second half on Tuesday was better than anything we've seen in a while now, but let's not get carried away - we're still well off Arsenal or Sheff Utd's pace.
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But that's a more significant feat than we're letting on, in reality.
There are teams in this league with a lot of steel who are good at seeing out games against better opposition, or under the cosh away from home, at which we're very poor.
It's been mentioned we have more wins than Arsenal, but their performance this week is a good example of something we wouldn't be able to do - despite struggling to bed-in a new style of play at the moment, and missing their best player through injury, even after going down to 10 men halfway through the 1st half they managed to claw back a game (twice) against a decent team in Chelsea. That's something we'd be incapable of doing with 10 men and without our best player (Grealish). Can you imagine.
Our game management is really poor. The second half on Tuesday was better than anything we've seen in a while now, but let's not get carried away - we're still well off Arsenal or Sheff Utd's pace.
It definitely was a big issue, particularly when we were playing 4-3-3 (even when we were playing quite well), but I think it is something that we have shown signs of improvement in from the Burnley game though.
A bit like the Arsenal example you mention, playing a new formation that we are still learning, without our best central midfielder and with absolutely no senior striker at all we have come from behind in the last two games to get a decent draw and a win. Add to that the fact that we saw out the Burnley win relatively comfortably and it’s fair to say that our mentality and game management has been better in recent weeks.
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I take it I'm not the only one to notice we've actually won more league games than Arsenal now.
I hadn't!
And only one win fewer than Sheff Utd who everyone seems to agree are having a great season. They're basically much better at getting draws than us.
But that's a more significant feat than we're letting on, in reality.
There are teams in this league with a lot of steel who are good at seeing out games against better opposition, or under the cosh away from home, at which we're very poor.
It's been mentioned we have more wins than Arsenal, but their performance this week is a good example of something we wouldn't be able to do - despite struggling to bed-in a new style of play at the moment, and missing their best player through injury, even after going down to 10 men halfway through the 1st half they managed to claw back a game (twice) against a decent team in Chelsea. That's something we'd be incapable of doing with 10 men and without our best player (Grealish). Can you imagine.
Our game management is really poor. The second half on Tuesday was better than anything we've seen in a while now, but let's not get carried away - we're still well off Arsenal or Sheff Utd's pace.
I don't disagree that getting draws important, or that Sheff Utd are good at it, but at the same time we're not a million miles from it. We were 4 minutes from drawing with Spurs, 6 minutes from drawing with Arsenal, and 1 minute from drawing with Liverpool. All of which were games we were leading. Add those 3 points and the only difference between us and Sheff Utd is the result against them (which they deservedly won).
Yes, this is a whole of lot of if's but's and maybe's, and I'm certainly not saying we deserve to be higher - we are where we are on merit - I'm just trying to point out the distance to upper mid-table isn't as big as some people think.
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I take it I'm not the only one to notice we've actually won more league games than Arsenal now.
I hadn't!
And only one win fewer than Sheff Utd who everyone seems to agree are having a great season. They're basically much better at getting draws than us.
But that's a more significant feat than we're letting on, in reality.
There are teams in this league with a lot of steel who are good at seeing out games against better opposition, or under the cosh away from home, at which we're very poor.
It's been mentioned we have more wins than Arsenal, but their performance this week is a good example of something we wouldn't be able to do - despite struggling to bed-in a new style of play at the moment, and missing their best player through injury, even after going down to 10 men halfway through the 1st half they managed to claw back a game (twice) against a decent team in Chelsea. That's something we'd be incapable of doing with 10 men and without our best player (Grealish). Can you imagine.
Our game management is really poor. The second half on Tuesday was better than anything we've seen in a while now, but let's not get carried away - we're still well off Arsenal or Sheff Utd's pace.
I don't disagree that getting draws important, or that Sheff Utd are good at it, but at the same time we're not a million miles from it. We were 4 minutes from drawing with Spurs, 6 minutes from drawing with Arsenal, and 1 minute from drawing with Liverpool. All of which were games we were leading. Add those 3 points and the only difference between us and Sheff Utd is the result against them (which they deservedly won).
Yes, this is a whole of lot of if's but's and maybe's, and I'm certainly not saying we deserve to be higher - we are where we are on merit - I'm just trying to point out the distance to upper mid-table isn't as big as some people think.
But this what pisses me off. I can see us getting relegated but if we can just stay up, I think players like Luiz, Nakamba, Engels, Konsa will be solid players by next year so with a few extra signings we could be a reasonable unit. I have a horrible feeling we’ll get relegated and they’ll all be stars next year.
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I take it I'm not the only one to notice we've actually won more league games than Arsenal now.
I hadn't!
And only one win fewer than Sheff Utd who everyone seems to agree are having a great season. They're basically much better at getting draws than us.
But that's a more significant feat than we're letting on, in reality.
There are teams in this league with a lot of steel who are good at seeing out games against better opposition, or under the cosh away from home, at which we're very poor.
It's been mentioned we have more wins than Arsenal, but their performance this week is a good example of something we wouldn't be able to do - despite struggling to bed-in a new style of play at the moment, and missing their best player through injury, even after going down to 10 men halfway through the 1st half they managed to claw back a game (twice) against a decent team in Chelsea. That's something we'd be incapable of doing with 10 men and without our best player (Grealish). Can you imagine.
Our game management is really poor. The second half on Tuesday was better than anything we've seen in a while now, but let's not get carried away - we're still well off Arsenal or Sheff Utd's pace.
I don't disagree that getting draws important, or that Sheff Utd are good at it, but at the same time we're not a million miles from it. We were 4 minutes from drawing with Spurs, 6 minutes from drawing with Arsenal, and 1 minute from drawing with Liverpool. All of which were games we were leading. Add those 3 points and the only difference between us and Sheff Utd is the result against them (which they deservedly won).
Yes, this is a whole of lot of if's but's and maybe's, and I'm certainly not saying we deserve to be higher - we are where we are on merit - I'm just trying to point out the distance to upper mid-table isn't as big as some people think.
But this what pisses me off. I can see us getting relegated but if we can just stay up, I think players like Luiz, Nakamba, Engels, Konsa will be solid players by next year so with a few extra signings we could be a reasonable unit. I have a horrible feeling we’ll get relegated and they’ll all be stars next year.
I’m one for taking the ups when they come. Still buzzing after Tuesday and whilst I’ve been watching villa for too long to get carried away about our chances of staying up after one victory, their are wins and their are wins. To battle back like that can only (hopefully) give us confidence and some momentum.
As has been pointed out we’ve been without our midfield engine for 5 weeks and no forward for last 4 games and apart from Man City we’ve done really well, so credit where credits due.
I agree we’ll have to win one or two against better sides, if we can beat Bournemouth, spurs could be one. 4 more wins.
There are so many teams 5 points ahead of us on 30, I still think one or two will get dragged in, maybe newcastle, proper shite them.
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Some positives:
We're 6th in the current form table (last 6 games), so if momentum is a thing then we have more of it than most of our rivals.
This is despite three of those games being against teams above us on current form, Man City and Watford x 2.
In the other three, as well as Watford, we've taken points off relegation rivals.
This is despite us not playing well in most if not all of those games.
This is despite us not actually having a forward since the Burnley game.
We're the only team to beat Watford in that spell.
Performances haven't been great, and we've looked like relegation fodder on occasion, but results are more important, and we are doing ok in that respect. Plus there is plenty of room for improvement in performances especially if we get a couple of decent forwards in.
Somehow I'm still concerned though.
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25 points at this stage is decent.
The things that are concerning are the form of other teams - it just looks like more is required for survival this year than in previous years and the fact that we should have 2-3 more points on the board from the first 12 games or so. This left us with little margin for error in a season where it will likely take 39-40 points for survival instead of the usual 35-36.
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Every year record points get mentioned, nearly every year it doesn't materialise.
The only time it did was to relegate the Noses, trololololol.
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Every year record points get mentioned, nearly every year it doesn't materialise.
The only time it did was to relegate the Noses, trololololol.
the only thing that will matter is that we are above three other teams at the end of it all. Irrespective of the number of points it will require.
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Every year record points get mentioned, nearly every year it doesn't materialise.
The only time it did was to relegate the Noses, trololololol.
Yes exactly. Not sure why people think 40 is required number. Look at the current table. Less than point a game and you are in the bottom 3. Anything more and you are not.
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I’m worried because everything seems to be focused on our lack of forwards.
The statistics (and my eyes) suggest we are a jittery sack of shite at the back.
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Both for me.
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I don’t disagree, but given where we are it’s a much easier fix to fill the striker shaped hole in the team and score our way out of trouble.
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I think the squad by and large have each shown glimpses of genuine ability at this level - the struggle has been consistency which, given many of them are new to PL football makes sense.
I genuinely believe if we can scrap our way to survival this year, the likes of Nakamba, Luiz, Targett, Guilbert, AEG, Trez etc will all elevate next season as they find their feet - so 2/3 clever acquisitions to supplement Jack, SJM, Heaton, Mings will make the team easily in upper half of the league.
We just have to survive any which way we can which is why I don’t care how - just accumulate the points. Fuck the fancy football - it will come - we need 15 points minimum and we can do it
UTV
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I think the squad by and large have each shown glimpses of genuine ability at this level - the struggle has been consistency which, given many of them are new to PL football makes sense.
I genuinely believe if we can scrap our way to survival this year, the likes of Nakamba, Luiz, Targett, Guilbert, AEG, Trez etc will all elevate next season as they find their feet - so 2/3 clever acquisitions to supplement Jack, SJM, Heaton, Mings will make the team easily in upper half of the league.
We just have to survive any which way we can which is why I don’t care how - just accumulate the points. Fuck the fancy football - it will come - we need 15 points minimum and we can do it
UTV
This is pretty much how I feel. I too think we've got some talent waiting to bloom, and I don't want a repeat of 2016 where it all buggers off and then flowers elsewhere.
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I know it's the hope that kills us but I am really hoping that we have turned a bit of a corner. 10 points from the last 6 games, including the Man City defeat. The new formation is beginning to yield results? The full backs are doing much better and we've done this without a forward on the pitch. I still want a harder central midfielder in there and to see the forward have a more positive effect on the side.
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I just remembered that I put £10 on us to with the league in the post-Wembley euphoria. I backed us each way (I'm not mental). I'm starting to worry that I won't be collecting anything.
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I'm very hopeful we can kick on now and comfortably get the 3-4 wins we need.
Second half is what we need to do v Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal and Man. United. We will get points out of those fixtures if we believe like we did tonight (and also have more inspired keeping displays). Hopefully we've now got that mentality you need against the better teams, certainly the last minute goals will help.
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I doubt we will play a worse team away than Bournemouth, so realistically where are we going to get enough points to survive.
Our away record is awful, we have won 2 and we have top 10 teams to play at home.
We are in deep shit.
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I just remembered that I put £10 on us to with the league in the post-Wembley euphoria. I backed us each way (I'm not mental). I'm starting to worry that I won't be collecting anything.
cash out.
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I doubt we will play a worse team away than Bournemouth, so realistically where are we going to get enough points to survive.
Our away record is awful, we have won 2 and we have top 10 teams to play at home.
We are in deep shit.
Yet in our last two away league games we have taken four points from teams that are better than Bournemouth. Throw in an away draw in the cup against the team in third in between them as well.
We will continue to drop points when we probably don’t expect to and I’m sure the opposite will occur with us picking up some unexpectedly.
I’m not sure if we will stay up. I expect it will go down to the final few games of the season at least. Thinking we are in deep shit is a bit of an overreaction to a poor result/performance in my opinion..
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West Ham vs Aston Villa on the last day of the season. A potential 'winner takes all' scenario?
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I dont think we have a bottom 3 team. Certainly Bournemouth's players are no better than ours. It's just other teams are better set up tactically and are more confident than us.
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I doubt we will play a worse team away than Bournemouth, so realistically where are we going to get enough points to survive.
Our away record is awful, we have won 2 and we have top 10 teams to play at home.
We are in deep shit.
I fancy us at Newcastle. Beyond that it will be a scramble for a draw or two.
Might be enough with 10 points from home games.
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And just as I was beginning to become less worried I’m back to being very worried again. Well done Villa FFS.
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Realistically, when can we get McGinn back?
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Realistically, when can we get McGinn back?
Apparently Smith has said he has a chance of making the LC Final
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Realistically, when can we get McGinn back?
March.
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I dont think we have a bottom 3 team. Certainly Bournemouth's players are no better than ours. It's just other teams are better set up tactically and are more confident than us.
They also appear to want it more.
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It was a classic post cup win game. They got going quicker than us, were first to everything, generally looked like they wanted it more. And that was enough. I don’t think we were that bad, especially in the first half, grealish could have had a couple and there were some bad decisions from the ref. But they just generally looked more like a team who were serious about scrapping their way out of the relegation shit than us.
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We've given Bournemouth a bit of bounce now, which is disappointing. We are still making the same stupid mistakes at the back, we still cannot defend well from the centre of midfield or against set pieces, we seem to lack motivation and consistency. That said, if we can win more of our home games, then we still stand a chance. But, yes, I am worried and don't think we have enough to stay up. Tough fixtures coming up too.
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We could go down this year for sure but there's still 13 games to play and we currently sit outside the bottom 3. I really don't understand the utter conviction some people have that we're doomed. I'm guessing it's some sort of reverse psychology or something to try and soften the blow because there's certainly no logic to it.
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I still think we’ll be ok, just. Those were shattering results for both Watford and West Ham today in their manner.
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Our midfield is so inconsistent play well one week and disappear the next.
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I still think we’ll be ok, just. Those were shattering results for both Watford and West Ham today in their manner.
That’s the thing - obviously what we do ourselves will define whether we stay up or not, but you could genuinely make a case for pretty much anyone from Newcastle down to be concerned about relegation. I might be wrong, but I don’t remember the table being this condensed for a while.
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I’ve just looked at the fixtures for all the sides around us. Plenty of 6 pointers for our rivals and games against both 'The Mighty Reds YNWA' and Citeh with a few juicy derbies thrown in. All look very tough. I think I preferred our run in the most if I’m honest. If there is mid table mediocrity in this league we’ll be playing most of them.
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I am concerned again. The next 10 or so look considerably harder. We're not getting points v the top half and need to start doing that in order to stay up.
We'd have been relatively comfortable with a win yesterday. I think we may look back on this game
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We are - in anger.
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We are - in anger.
Well don’t..... winky thing
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Musical chairs for the next 3 months I’m afraid to say. I’m hoping it doesn’t all come down to Wet Spam on the last day because we just don’t seem to have the minerals.
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Well, Spurs at home and Southampton away seem a little more charitable than Man City and a trip to Anfield. Let's recall the benefits of passing to a Villa player from defence and put a little gap between us and West Ham.
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After that the West Ham have Spurs, Arsenal and Chelsea I think, all of which will know how much their fans want to see West Ham relegated. They’ve the worst run in out of everyone I think.
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It's still anybodies. There's a number of teams in the shit. We still need 4 wins to be sure. I wouldn't say anyone around us is feeling anymore confident that us. Watford's honeymoon looks over, West Ham have a horrible run which could derail them, Norwich are gone, Brighton can't win a raffle and B'mouth have a had a couple of results just like we did. Plenty of twists and turns to come. We do need a result against a team we normally lose to though.
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I said before it’s musical chairs until the final whistle on the last day, we are not going to pull away. Looks like our chance is to win our home games as our away record is dire.
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We should not let a miracle last gasp win against Watford blind us to the fact that 5 or 6 of our regular first team are not (and may never be) of sufficient standard for the Premier League.
FFP has been a massive advantage to those clubs that were able to consolidate before the drawbridge was pulled up.
I have a bad feeling that Jack will not be with us next season.
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I've always been worried about this season and still am. The real disaster of yesterday was gifting Bournemoth another win and helping their mini revival. If we're to stay up my feeling is they will need to be one of the fall guys because I still think Watford and West Ham will have too much.
It's tight, but it was always going to be. We're still one of the form teams in the relegation mix and we've got Jack with McGinn also to come back. If I was one of the other teams I'd be worried about us.
There's a long way to go and there will be plenty of flip flops between 'we're doomed' and 'we look good' between now and the end of the season.
For me, it's too tight to call, which is pretty much what we should really have expected at the start of the season.
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West Ham and Watford have so far proved they've got less than us.
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West Ham and Watford have so far proved they've got less than us.
Just because they're below us doesn't change my view that I think they'll both probbaly have too much between now and the end of the season.
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I said before it’s musical chairs until the final whistle on the last day, we are not going to pull away. Looks like our chance is to win our home games as our away record is dire.
Spot on. I expect we will drop into the bottom 3 at some point before the end of the season. Maybe more than once. It just depends where we are after the final game. We'll just have to stay on tenter hooks.
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West Ham and Watford have so far proved they've got less than us.
Just because they're below us doesn't change my view that I think they'll both probbaly have too much between now and the end of the season.
That's fair enough, but they've not shown it so far.
My bottom 3 would be Norwich, Watford and Brighton.
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We have a squad of players who at some point have all performed like they belong in the Premier league. Unfortunately these performances have been interspersed with some absolute dross and regularly we'll have as many as 7 or 8 players who are off the boil in any given game. On the one hand, that's the problem with youth and inexperience. On the other, this is the Premier League and, even if you got time to learn on the job, we're at the thick end of the season and can't afford to wait for them to kick on.
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I went to West Ham yesterday. It was hilarious. The way crowd turned, and how the team responded, suggested that they're going down.
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West Ham and Watford have so far proved they've got less than us.
Just because they're below us doesn't change my view that I think they'll both probbaly have too much between now and the end of the season.
That's fair enough, but they've not shown it so far.
My bottom 3 would be Norwich, Watford and Brighton.
Stands a fair chance I reckon.
My dream three would be Watford, West Ham and Newcastle. Unlikely but it would be hilarious.
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My dream three would be Watford, West Ham and Newcastle. Unlikely but it would be hilarious.
mine would be Newcastle, West Ham and Wolves - long odds on that.
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Think it might go all the way to West Ham away.
We'll need to score at least twice to cancel out the inevitable Snodgrass goal. Let's see if we still applaud him then !
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We keep showing that we can lose to any one, we give up more chances to the opposition than any other team and have not done anything to address that.
Yesterday’s result was a massive blow and I can’t help thinking if we can’t show up against Bournemouth then there is something fundamentally wrong with the set up.
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Man United, so their ridiculous fan base actually has something to moan about.
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We don't get results against the top half so that was a massive loss yesterday. We can only hope we get a couple of jammy wins - that literally is our hope.
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I think Spurs, Wolves, Man United and Chelsea will yield points at home out the top 8.
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I've always been worried about this season and still am. The real disaster of yesterday was gifting Bournemoth another win and helping their mini revival. If we're to stay up my feeling is they will need to be one of the fall guys because I still think Watford and West Ham will have too much.
It's tight, but it was always going to be. We're still one of the form teams in the relegation mix and we've got Jack with McGinn also to come back. If I was one of the other teams I'd be worried about us.
There's a long way to go and there will be plenty of flip flops between 'we're doomed' and 'we look good' between now and the end of the season.
For me, it's too tight to call, which is pretty much what we should really have expected at the start of the season.
Agree with most of this. Though think West Ham are the classic team that looks too good to go down on paper. But they’ve form for dropping and have been a bit of an unhappy ship for a few years, plus their big name striker really isn’t doing any better than Wes was for us.
As for Watford, given their run I was really expecting a lot more when they came to villa. Someone on the thread mentioned we had a miracle win against them, yes it was last kick of the game, but I thought we were the much better side and they were poor.
For me, despite their comeback yesterday I’d be worried if I was Brighton, play good football most games, but can’t buy a win.
So all is not lost.
It’s going to close and some of our players are very up and down, Nakamba for example, best player on the pitch against Watford and very good against Leicester, then some weeks awful, but that’s how it’s going to be for the rest of the season I think.
Our last 5 games have been 2 wins, 1 draw, 2 defeats, repeat that for the next 5 and the 5 after that we’ll probably be safe with a few games to spare.
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Anyone know what the parachute payment situation is, if you have only been back up for a single season?
Do you get tapering payments over more than one season and is it still a decent wedge?
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Anyone know what the parachute payment situation is, if you have only been back up for a single season?
Do you get tapering payments over more than one season and is it still a decent wedge?
55% in Yr 1, 45% in yr 2 and 20% in yr 3. Approx £80m in yr 1, etc etc
Added to which of course we’d have in excess of £100m from sales of Grealish, Mings, McGinn etcetc
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Anyone know what the parachute payment situation is, if you have only been back up for a single season?
Do you get tapering payments over more than one season and is it still a decent wedge?
55% in Yr 1, 45% in yr 2 and 20% in yr 3. Approx £80m in yr 1, etc etc
Added to which of course we’d have in excess of £100m from sales of Grealish, Mings, McGinn etcetc
That ought to buy a bounce back squad.
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8th in Form league over last 5 games which isn't too bad , I think the 2 week break has come at a good time for us.
2 weeks more training for Samatta , integrate Baston and 2 weeks closer to McGinn return
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I think Spurs, Wolves, Man United and Chelsea will yield points at home out the top 8.
I think we'll beat Shefifeld United if that game gets moved to mid to late April.Get the feeling once they get to 40 points they'll ease off in the manner West Brom used to under Pulis. They'd hardly win a game in last three months of the season.
10 more home points and we'll stay up imo. Think we'll get one more away win.
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All is not lost.
The Aston Villa Women are doing really well.
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Liverpool could have won the league a game or two before they play us so they might play their under 15’s against us again.
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Not sure we’ll get much change off wolves I can see traore ripping our defenders a new one like vardy did.
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Not sure we’ll get much change off wolves I can see traore ripping our defenders a new one like vardy did.
He didn’t do nowt for 40 mins last tuesday
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Not sure we’ll get much change off wolves I can see traore ripping our defenders a new one like vardy did.
We must surely be playing one of Wolves/Arsenal/Man. United inbetween europa league ties if they don't all get knocked out? Given none of them will likely be in top 4 mix they'll all have very little motivation left for the league and it's not like two of them win many games anyway this season.
There is hope. Remember in the Sherwood run in we played Spurs, West Ham and Everton in the last six games who all finished in the top half that season. We won all three.
It's amazing when you play a team who are mentally on the beach how many 50/50s you win.
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Liverpool could have won the league a game or two before they play us so they might play their under 15’s against us again.
I think if they haven't lost once they tie up the league going the season without loss will be the target , if someone does beat them then the rest of the season I expect to see them move the team around alot to give players time on field to get a medal and rest players for champs league.
Teams in Europa league resting players could come into it , main point is its not that easy to simply look at remaining fixtures and pic winners/losers alot will be in the motivation at the time of the games.
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I was already worried and that went up a notch after Saturday as I fancied us for a draw at least. I think it is going to be tight and nervy and could go right to the last day. Having said that 1981, 1988, 1989, last years play off final, we have a decent 'last day' record*.
*Unless the 'last day' is an FA Cup final ;)
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I was already worried and that went up a notch after Saturday as I fancied us for a draw at least. I think it is going to be tight and nervy and could go right to the last day. Having said that 1981, 1988, 1989, last years play off final, we have a decent 'last day' record*.
*Unless the 'last day' is an FA Cup final ;)
In 81, we had to thank Bosko Jankovic for a superb ending as we lost and were the poorest we'd been nearly all season.
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In '88 we drew and relied on a result after we'd finished playing, in '89 we relied on a game played over a week after we'd played and drawn our last of the season. Damo hardly chose the most convining of last day performances!
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In '88 we drew and relied on a result after we'd finished playing, in '89 we relied on a game played over a week after we'd played and drawn our last of the season. Damo hardly chose the most convining of last day performances!
I remember in 1989 West Ham still had two games in hand to overtake and relegate us away against Forest and Liverpool due to Hillsborough. I was drinking in the Red Lion in Shirley when I heard Leroy Rosenior had scored two goals to beat Forest at the City Ground. A few days later I was listening at home on the radio when West Ham took a one nil lead at Anfield and at that point we were down. Fortunately Liverpool hit back and scored five.
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You did well to pass the elite door selection policy of the Red Lion, Damo.
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Our midfield is so inconsistent play well one week and disappear the next.
So many of our players are like this.
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We keep showing that we can lose to any one, we give up more chances to the opposition than any other team and have not done anything to address that.
Yesterday’s result was a massive blow and I can’t help thinking if we can’t show up against Bournemouth then there is something fundamentally wrong with the set up.
Yes, the fundamental issue is that we've had to buy virtually an entire team to play in the toughest league, with minimum preparation.
That we're doing better than the other Play_Off winners have suggests we're actually doing better than we should, not worse. I'm disappointed when we lose, and relegation was always going to be hanging over us this season. I hoped, and thought, that we may have kicked on a bit but it's not happened, yet.
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We keep showing that we can lose to any one, we give up more chances to the opposition than any other team and have not done anything to address that.
Yesterday’s result was a massive blow and I can’t help thinking if we can’t show up against Bournemouth then there is something fundamentally wrong with the set up.
Yes, the fundamental issue is that we've had to buy virtually an entire team to play in the toughest league, with minimum preparation.
That we're doing better than the other Play_Off winners have suggests we're actually doing better than we should, not worse. I'm disappointed when we lose, and relegation was always going to be hanging over us this season. I hoped, and thought, that we may have kicked on a bit but it's not happened, yet.
We had an advantage over many play off teams with Mings SJM and Jack, we bought a Top Goalkeeper. Not many if any play off teams have that luxury.
I think the team is potentially better than the results we are getting.
Like you I thought we turned the corner after Watford away but we obviously haven’t.
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You did well to pass the elite door selection policy of the Red Lion, Damo.
Kenny Rogers lookalike Kenny Fewtrell ran it back then in the late eighties. Years before the 'Regulars Only' sign at the door.
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We keep showing that we can lose to any one, we give up more chances to the opposition than any other team and have not done anything to address that.
Yesterday’s result was a massive blow and I can’t help thinking if we can’t show up against Bournemouth then there is something fundamentally wrong with the set up.
Yes, the fundamental issue is that we've had to buy virtually an entire team to play in the toughest league, with minimum preparation.
That we're doing better than the other Play_Off winners have suggests we're actually doing better than we should, not worse. I'm disappointed when we lose, and relegation was always going to be hanging over us this season. I hoped, and thought, that we may have kicked on a bit but it's not happened, yet.
We had an advantage over many play off teams with Mings SJM and Jack, we bought a Top Goalkeeper. Not many if any play off teams have that luxury.
I think the team is potentially better than the results we are getting.
Like you I thought we turned the corner after Watford away but we obviously haven’t.
I do get what you are saying, but successfully recruiting two very good players is not an advantage - it’s a job well done by the club.
I think the team has shown the potential to be better than our results/current position but a lack of experience/nous is exactly why we are in the position that we are currently in. Most of our players were either young or lacking top flight experience, or both.
I don’t think it’s fair to say we haven’t shown improvement since the Watford away game. We generally look more solid that we previously did and our form and performances have generally been better than they were prior to that game.
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Luke, we have shown improvement in some games then Bournemouth happens.
It was a shit show against a bang average team with 10 men for most of the second half.
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Yeah, but that’s looking at one game in isolation. Since the Watford game you mentioned, we have played seven times with our first team and I would say we have had four at least pretty good performances, one average one (Brighton) and two poor games.
We are as likely to put in a good performance in our next game as a poor one.
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In '88 we drew and relied on a result after we'd finished playing, in '89 we relied on a game played over a week after we'd played and drawn our last of the season. Damo hardly chose the most convining of last day performances!
I remember in 1989 West Ham still had two games in hand to overtake and relegate us away against Forest and Liverpool due to Hillsborough. I was drinking in the Red Lion in Shirley when I heard Leroy Rosenior had scored two goals to beat Forest at the City Ground. A few days later I was listening at home on the radio when West Ham took a one nil lead at Anfield and at that point we were down. Fortunately Liverpool hit back and scored five.
West Ham didn't take the lead, they equalised. So were never in the relegation zone that evening.
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94/95 and Norwich away was last time we were in relegation trouble on last day in top division I think.
Even then it was a pretty small chance we'd go down as think Palace lost anyway.
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94/95 and Norwich away was last time we were in relegation trouble on last day in top division I think.
Even then it was a pretty small chance we'd go down as think Palace lost anyway.
In 2011-12 we could still have gone if there'd been about a twelve goal shift.
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Didn't a Marcus Allback goal get us out of trouble one season?
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Didn't a Marcus Allback goal get us out of trouble one season?
Yes. SGT season in the premier league. That was when West Ham went down on 42 points. Our home form bar one obvious defeat was very good that year but only one away win meant we were hovering in the bottom six pretty much all season, can't remember us ever being in the bottom 3 at any point though so always sensed we'd have just enough and we did.
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Didn't a Marcus Allback goal get us out of trouble one season?
Yes. SGT season in the premier league. That was when West Ham went down on 42 points. Our home form bar one obvious defeat was very good that year but only one away win meant we were hovering in the bottom six pretty much all season, can't remember us ever being in the bottom 3 at any point though so always sensed we'd have just enough and we did.
i probably am wrong, but I remember it was when we had that wheatabix box colour away kit
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Anyway...Anyone starting to get worried?
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Anyway...Anyone starting to get worried?
I actually thought we would be ok until Arsenal away.
Then I realized the frailty of the team and the manager. Any team can score against us.
Every now and then we have a feel good performance and result but there are too many Watford away Bournemouth Southampton outcomes. I also think Wembley is a distraction we could do without.
So still have hope not expectation.
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I think we are in big trouble.
We still have liverpool, united, spurs, chelsea, arsenal, Leicester and wolves to play. We need to win some of these games if we are to have any hope of staying up.
We really dont want this going fonal game away tk west ham who themselves might need the win.
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United, Arsenal and Wolves at home in a local derby represent good opportunities to win games as far as I'm concerned. Arsenal in particular are absolute shite away from home.
Spurs at home, who knows. They barely scarped a 0-0 with Watford, a side 2nd bottom and managed to get battered at home to City and win with 2 shots on target before Son's effort in the 93rd minute to give their keeper a save.
We've already proven we can give Leicester a game too.
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The only Top 10 team we have beaten is Everton.
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We beat a full strength Leicester team last week.
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One game at a time - all that matters right now is Tottenham at home in a weeks time. Big crowd, big atmosphere, big performance needed. Worrying about the other fixtures is needless.
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Yes. I think the world could be coming to an end.
Smith is out of his depth.
Grealish is definitely going, whatever happens.
We're going to be relegated.
We haven't got enough players.
We haven't got enough quality.
The owners aren't ambitious enough.
Our Sporting Director can't see into the future.
The CEO isn't sorting everything out quickly enough.
The past was shit at times so that's bound to carry on.
But most of all I'm worried that I'm not worried about all of the above.
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Smith is struggling at this level but will hopefully come good given time.
Grealish will leave if we get relegated, stay if we stop up.
We could possibly be relegated.
We haven't got enough experienced players at this level.
We have enough quality if they perform to their standards.
The owners have saved us from doing a Portsmouth thanks to Dr Tony.
Our Sporting Director can see what we need to do.
The CEO is doing what he can.
The recent past was shit but the future is looking a lot better than a few years ago.
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Quite.
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50/50 staying up
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I really think that dismal performance at Bournemouth was the tipping point unfortunately. It was a pivotal match, that if we'd won would have given us a bit of respite with the tough run of fixtures coming up. The fact that the manager and team couldn't raise themselves for it speaks volumes. According to most of the bookies, we're amongst the 3 favourites to go down, despite not being in the bottom three.
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Bournemouth was shite, and hugely disappointing given the week we were having, but I don't think it was a tipping point any more than beating Leicester four days before was. It was just a crap result, and a poor performance.
Things would look MUCH better had we beaten them, absolutely, but there are still three teams below us who would happily swap places with us. And the three teams above us are in worse form than us over the last 6 games (even with Bournemouth's win against us).
There is a long way to go, and we're a long way from doomed.
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Bournemouth was shite, and hugely disappointing given the week we were having, but I don't think it was a tipping point any more than beating Leicester four days before was. It was just a crap result, and a poor performance.
Things would look MUCH better had we beaten them, absolutely, but there are still three teams below us who would happily swap places with us. And the three teams above us are in worse form than us over the last 6 games (even with Bournemouth's win against us).
There is a long way to go, and we're a long way from doomed.
The Leicester result was nothing to do with the league, so is of minor importance to the relegation battle either way. We've got a much, much harder run than anybody except West Ham, and they'll probably be joining us in going down.
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Bournemouth was shite, and hugely disappointing given the week we were having, but I don't think it was a tipping point any more than beating Leicester four days before was. It was just a crap result, and a poor performance.
Things would look MUCH better had we beaten them, absolutely, but there are still three teams below us who would happily swap places with us. And the three teams above us are in worse form than us over the last 6 games (even with Bournemouth's win against us).
There is a long way to go, and we're a long way from doomed.
The Leicester result was nothing to do with the league, so is of minor importance to the relegation battle either way. We've got a much, much harder run than anybody except West Ham, and they'll probably be joining us in going down.
Apart from the fact we played at a standard that beat the first team of the club in the 3rd place in the league. Does that not give you any hope?
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Bournemouth was shite, and hugely disappointing given the week we were having, but I don't think it was a tipping point any more than beating Leicester four days before was. It was just a crap result, and a poor performance.
Things would look MUCH better had we beaten them, absolutely, but there are still three teams below us who would happily swap places with us. And the three teams above us are in worse form than us over the last 6 games (even with Bournemouth's win against us).
There is a long way to go, and we're a long way from doomed.
The Leicester result was nothing to do with the league, so is of minor importance to the relegation battle either way. We've got a much, much harder run than anybody except West Ham, and they'll probably be joining us in going down.
Oh, I don't disagree about it's importance, I just meant in terms of it - as a result - being a tipping point (one way or another).
I think the run-ins are important, but less so than in previous years as everyone is so close and taking points of each other. I think everyone bar Liverpool and Man City are genuine opportunities for points - yes, we've not really done it yet, but I'm confident we'll beat at least one of the traditional 'top 8' teams in the run-in. We were close against Spurs, Arsenal and Man Utd (hell, we were close against Liverpool!).
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Let's ignore the previous month's form and concentrate on one poor performance. It's what we're good at.
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Let's ignore the previous month's form and concentrate on one poor performance. It's what we're good at.
Absolutely. We beat Watford, they're 2nd bottom and have been below us the entire season bar one week, but they'll somehow stay up at our expense because we lost to Bournemouth? I cannot follow the logic of that.
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It’s not difficult. We’ve got a much harder run in than they have.
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The last game against Bournemouth really was a must-win, I cannbot see where we're going to get the wins from I'm afraid.
The Spurs game represents an opportunity to prove we have what it takes to stay up by beating a side from the top half of the table, which is what we're going to have to do.
The optimist in me says we will, and we'll get the other four wins we need away at Southampton, and at home to Sheffield United and two of either Wolves, Manure or Palace.
That would give us 37 points, and I still don't think that's enough.
I don't fancy us going to West Ham needing a win to stay up.
The pessimist in me says we're pretty much fucked.
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It’s not difficult. We’ve got a much harder run in than they have.
Because they've been so convincing this season against all those "easy" reverse fixtures. They had a brief up turn, but have now taken 1 point out of 9.
As Dave said, odd that our form gets ignored, which since the turn of the year has us comfortably staying up.
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It’s not difficult. We’ve got a much harder run in than they have.
Because they've been so convincing this season.
They’ve had their new Manager bounce, time to get back to the real Nigel Pearson.
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Bournemouth have a harder run-in than us! They play the current top 8 and nobody from the bottom 6.
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I really think that dismal performance at Bournemouth was the tipping point unfortunately. It was a pivotal match, that if we'd won would have given us a bit of respite with the tough run of fixtures coming up. The fact that the manager and team couldn't raise themselves for it speaks volumes. According to most of the bookies, we're amongst the 3 favourites to go down, despite not being in the bottom three.
A pattern this season seems to be that whenever we have a real chance to put a bit of space between us and the bottom three, we fuck it up. Conversely, though, whenever we look doomed we pull out a vital win to stay in the hunt.
Bournemouth was definitely one of the former, but no reason why we can't get plenty more of the latter sort of results. I reckon we will stay up with a game to go.
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Bournemouth have a harder run-in than us! They play the current top 8 and nobody from the bottom 6.
We play all the top 8 and West Ham away from bottom 6, so our run in its much easier :o
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Watching Bristol city and they aRE suppose to Be one of the best in the championship. Jesus the quality must be really really poor this year
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Bournemouth have a harder run-in than us! They play the current top 8 and nobody from the bottom 6.
We play all the top 8 and West Ham away from bottom 6, so our run in its much easier :o
We've already played Man City twice unless you're counting the cup final ;)
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It’s not difficult. We’ve got a much harder run in than they have.
Watford and Brighton also got really tough run ins.
Watford still have to play Liverpool, Man. City and Leicester at home. Despite their amazing run they are still two points below us with a worse GD and they've only won once away under Pearson so will be banking on home form to stay up. Think they still have to play Chelsea, Arsenal and Man. City away so really don't think they've got an easier run in than us.
If Brighton don't beat Watford today they will have six more home games and four of them are against Arsenal, Man. United, Liverpool and Man. City. Also got aways at likes of Leicester and Wolves.
Of course we have tough home games left aswell but I'd rather play likes of Spurs and Arsenal than Man. City and Liverpool which both those two mentioned still have.
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It’s not difficult. We’ve got a much harder run in than they have.
Watford and Brighton also got really tough run ins.
Watford still have to play Liverpool, Man. City and Leicester at home. Despite their amazing run they are still two points below us with a worse GD and they've only won once away under Pearson so will be banking on home form to stay up. Think they still have to play Chelsea, Arsenal and Man. City away so really don't think they've got an easier run in than us.
If Brighton don't beat Watford today they will have six more home games and four of them are against Arsenal, Man. United, Liverpool and Man. City. Also got aways at likes of Leicester and Wolves.
Of course we have tough home games left aswell but I'd rather play likes of Spurs and Arsenal than Man. City and Liverpool which both those two mentioned still have.
I think this is spot on, what represents a tougher run in is subjective. I was sad enough to look at all the remaining fixtures last week and Brighton’s run looked as equally as tough if not tougher than ours. All the teams will probably get at least one maybe two results in the run in that are not expected, however I think it’s more about who goes on a losing streak of 4 or 5 games in a row, rather than a winning streak, a run like that will kill the hopes of any of the teams down there.
And in my opinion the Leicester game is important as it hopefully gets the players over the psychological barrier of knowing they can beat one of the better teams.
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I’m hoping that these tough looking home fixtures will turn out less difficult than feared. Hopefully our opponents will be heavily involved in one of the European cups/later stages of FA cup or, in Liverpool’s case, be on the longest piss-up in history after winning the league.
I do recall Ferguson’s United often used to switch off a little after walking the league.
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We still never beat them.
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Palace just lost again, they may be getting dragged into the mix. Also 3 out of their next 4 games are against Brighton, Watford and Bournemouth. After that lot they’ll either heavily involved in the relegation battle themselves or will have done us a few favours.
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Palace are like Newcastle, you watch them and wonder how they've got as many as 30 points.
There's usually 1 team that drops from mid table into serious relegation trouble. We were in that position in the McLeish season.
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We still never beat them.
We lost to what was basically their reserves once I recall but that’s just what we do. I was trying to be optimistic!
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We drew 2-2 v them two months ago.
That said I'd take a point if it meant we beat Spurs and Arsenal at home in the run in.
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It was never going to anything but worrying, I've worried all season. We had to spend an incredible amount just to give us a good shot at 17th it was never going to be any other way, especially given we signed a number of players who are either slow burners or not necessarily good enough for this level.
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Watford winning bad news for us. We really cannot a fford a loss against spurs. We bloody need a win
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We drew 2-2 v them two months ago.
That said I'd take a point if it meant we beat Spurs and Arsenal at home in the run in.
You'd take seven points from those? Bit pessimistic mate.
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Thank god they drew tonight. We really have to take advantage of this sunday and pull away from watford.
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it might be naivety or just plain old misplaced optimism but I honestly thought we would be better than this
I don't really mean in points total although I was hoping for better but in the standard of our play and the attacking intent
when Smith first came the style of football changed overnight,
if I remember rightly the results weren't that good straight away but you could see what we were trying to do and we developed a more defined pattern of play,
progressive, open, attacking and this was with the players he had been handed to him by Bruce that were not particularly suited to that way of playing
I thought wow when he starts to bring his own players in we will be something else to watch
then Grealish got injured and the first of the alarm bell moments came, Smith didn't know what to do, he huffed and puffed but couldn't find an answer then the Golden boy returned and we were up returned to the premier league at the Smiths first attempt, and all was well with the world
we now have a team full of Smiths signings and we mostly play more like a Bruce team than what we were told a Smith team plays like
playing out from the back with Hause and Konsa who are maybe ok defenders but not very good footballers is like watching some sort of live car crash
a midfield without McGinn is a massive loss and we are now is totally reliant on one man
I like Luiz and Nakamba but they go from good to bad in the space of a few days, and the back ups Lansbury, Hourahane, Drinkwater, are just not good enough at this level (yes I'm writing off Drinkwater as a mistake already)
the worst two games for me are at either ends of the spectrum, Man City and Bournmouth,
Man City was a disgrace from start to finish, Elmo and Taylor as wing backs a total joke, they are no where near the level we need in this division ( yes I haven't forgot the world class cross from Elmo for Trez against Leicester)
that was a white flag line up and the posters that were saying ' what did you expect' the answer was a fucking lot more than that shit show
Hause just passing the ball to Aguero to go and score his hat trick was just astonishing incompetence
an unfit Drinkwater plodding about like a wallrus was laughable
the team were just dog shit, where was the ' we will give it a go no matter who we play' mantra we were promised
no where that's where
other teams Palace, Norwich, Newcastle have managed to give them a game but no we just bent over and got fucked all over the pitch
absolute shambles
Bournmouth,
we overturn the odds against Leicester and if ever we need to win a game it's this one, we are on a high Bournmouth are on a low
we don't even make it out of the traps, absolute no show
massive questions for the rest of the season here, if you can't get up for this one we've got no chance
only when they go a man short do we look like scoring, just not good enough by a long long way
and that's why I'm worried
where are we getting these 13-15 points from if we surrender so meekly against Bournmouth
totally reliant on Grealish, even Mansfield Town would have a chance of beating a prem club if they had Messi playing for them that's basically where we are,
Smith needs to learn, this is his side now, his players, why arnt we seeing the Smith way
I've not given up yet but I thought we would be further forward by now both tactically and performance wise
yes we've had very bad luck with injuries but we look very vulnerable no matter who we play and that comes down to the management team to instill confiidence
like I say maybe I was hoping for to much and was naive in believing for better, but that's what we were promised with the Smith attacking style of progressive ball retaining football which is to sporadic for me and sometimes no where to be seen
Sorry for the long negative post but the question was 'anyone starting to get worried' and my answer is yes I fucking am right now
although I will feel a lot happier if we win the league cup
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True in the sense that we would be far more organised under Smith, the lack of any sense of urgency against Bournmouth was telling, this is my biggest criticism of Smith if he cannot get the players fired up for such an important game then we are lost, I would imagine no matter how much he loves the club Grealish must be thinking he needs to be with better players.
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We have had a lack of urgency a few times now. I am more concerned about the failure to address the midfield defensive cover during the window. I think the two problems go together.
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Don't hold back!!!
I'd rather stay up than win the league cup. Both would be nice ...
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I’m concerned I guess. I thought we’d need a point a game for 17th and if we could get ahead of that it would be a bit more relaxing, but we sit on exactly a point a game and are in the last safe place. The injuries have killed us. McGinn, Heaton and even Wesley gives us at least another 3 or 4 points than what we’ve got now.
I like the look of Samatta and he will score. But it’s when we scores that will be crucial. Goals in defeats mean nothing. It’s obvious but if he scores 5 winners in matches that otherwise would be draws we’ll be safe. I think he will. Or I hope he will.
We’ve also got a freak result to come, every other team seems to have had one. It might be in the final.
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we now have a team full of Smiths signings and we mostly play more like a Bruce team than what we were told a Smith team plays like
playing out from the back with Hause and Konsa who are maybe ok defenders but not very good footballers is like watching some sort of live car crash
I know what you mean but they aren't Smith's signings. That's not meant to exonerate him, but he was never here to make signings and he doesn't.
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I think the Bruce comparison is a little unfair tbh. Smith introduced a clear pattern of play from the off, with one up too and two wide men and grealish further forward. It looked really good till grealish got injured and looked really good when he came back. That is only partly because grealish is an excellent player, it’s also because it meant McGinn didn’t have to try and over compensate as he had been doing.
Despite some defeats I thought the same shape was doing ok, for the first part of the season, some unlucky defeats like Arsenal and Liverpool, some comfortable wins like Norwich and Newcastle, a couple of no shows like Wolves.
But losing McGinn was huge, as big as losing jack last year, in terms of the team shape and energy in the middle. Smith had to change it to try and survive given the adverse circumstances with extreme injuries we’ve had. I thought Man City he mad wrong team selections, full backs and the slowest of slow midfields, but otherwise I think your being over harsh. Pointing back to Norwich and Newcastle giving city a game is a bit meaningless when we’ve battered both those teams.
I’m positive for the rest of the season until there’s a reason not to be. I’m happy to stay up this year and regroup and as things stand we’re not getting cut adrift and a cup final as well.
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I think the Bruce comparison is a little unfair tbh. Smith introduced a clear pattern of play from the off, with one up too and two wide men and grealish further forward. It looked really good till grealish got injured and looked really good when he came back. That is only partly because grealish is an excellent player, it’s also because it meant McGinn didn’t have to try and over compensate as he had been doing.
Despite some defeats I thought the same shape was doing ok, for the first part of the season, some unlucky defeats like Arsenal and Liverpool, some comfortable wins like Norwich and Newcastle, a couple of no shows like Wolves.
But losing McGinn was huge, as big as losing jack last year, in terms of the team shape and energy in the middle. Smith had to change it to try and survive given the adverse circumstances with extreme injuries we’ve had. I thought Man City he mad wrong team selections, full backs and the slowest of slow midfields, but otherwise I think your being over harsh. Pointing back to Norwich and Newcastle giving city a game is a bit meaningless when we’ve battered both those teams.
I’m positive for the rest of the season until there’s a reason not to be. I’m happy to stay up this year and regroup and as things stand we’re not getting cut adrift and a cup final as well.
Well there is rewriting history. The defeats to Liverpool and Arsenal we’re not unlucky they were self inflicted.
He was playing Jack in midfield and it was not working.
We have been hovering around the bottom all season so it has not been working.
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I think the Bruce comparison is a little unfair tbh. Smith introduced a clear pattern of play from the off, with one up too and two wide men and grealish further forward. It looked really good till grealish got injured and looked really good when he came back. That is only partly because grealish is an excellent player, it’s also because it meant McGinn didn’t have to try and over compensate as he had been doing.
Despite some defeats I thought the same shape was doing ok, for the first part of the season, some unlucky defeats like Arsenal and Liverpool, some comfortable wins like Norwich and Newcastle, a couple of no shows like Wolves.
But losing McGinn was huge, as big as losing jack last year, in terms of the team shape and energy in the middle. Smith had to change it to try and survive given the adverse circumstances with extreme injuries we’ve had. I thought Man City he mad wrong team selections, full backs and the slowest of slow midfields, but otherwise I think your being over harsh. Pointing back to Norwich and Newcastle giving city a game is a bit meaningless when we’ve battered both those teams.
I’m positive for the rest of the season until there’s a reason not to be. I’m happy to stay up this year and regroup and as things stand we’re not getting cut adrift and a cup final as well.
Well there is rewriting history. The defeats to Liverpool and Arsenal we’re not unlucky they were self inflicted.
He was playing Jack in midfield and it was not working.
We have been hovering around the bottom all season so it has not been working.
I think it’s a case of individuals perspective rather than re-writing history. I didn’t expect us to win at Arsenal, bearing in mind at the time we really didn’t know how their season would pan out. Yes we made mistakes particularly for their second, but we also had a stone wall penalty turned down, which potentially means we win the game, so in my view unlucky. We went toe to toe with the current best side in the world and just couldn’t hold on and ok lost a man for the winning goal, but not every player is mane and not every player scores that, so other than wolves giving Liverpool their hardest game of the season is in my view something to look back on, where we currently stand, as a great effort-bad luck. Given the players got a 5 minute standing ovation from the holte at the time, there’s plenty others would agree, at the time anyway.
I hoped we wouldn’t be hovering around relegation all season but expected we would, out of interest what did you expect given the complete over haul of the team and the relative inexperience at this level.?
This thread is whether we’re worried, and I don’t want us to go down, and despite being a middle aged family man with a million things going on in life, it still puts a huge dent in my weekends when villa lose. But I choose not to be over negative until the point we are relegated or looking likely. We are currently holding our own and results went our way yesterday and let’s hope so today. I think 3 more wins and a couple of draws might be enough, and I think we’ll get them.
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I was in the Holte v Liverpool and it was only when I watched the replay did I realize the fuck up that led to their 2 goals.Arsenal were down to 10 men and our manager was a rabbit in the headlights.
I expected us to be lower half the table but safe I did not expect our midfield to be so porous or so many of the abject performances where we have been all over the place, the last being Bournemouth.
We are capable of some very good football but we allways give any opposing team, plenty of opportunities to score against us and this is our biggest problem.
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I think the Bruce comparison is a little unfair tbh. Smith introduced a clear pattern of play from the off, with one up too and two wide men and grealish further forward. It looked really good till grealish got injured and looked really good when he came back. That is only partly because grealish is an excellent player, it’s also because it meant McGinn didn’t have to try and over compensate as he had been doing.
Despite some defeats I thought the same shape was doing ok, for the first part of the season, some unlucky defeats like Arsenal and Liverpool, some comfortable wins like Norwich and Newcastle, a couple of no shows like Wolves.
But losing McGinn was huge, as big as losing jack last year, in terms of the team shape and energy in the middle. Smith had to change it to try and survive given the adverse circumstances with extreme injuries we’ve had. I thought Man City he mad wrong team selections, full backs and the slowest of slow midfields, but otherwise I think your being over harsh. Pointing back to Norwich and Newcastle giving city a game is a bit meaningless when we’ve battered both those teams.
I’m positive for the rest of the season until there’s a reason not to be. I’m happy to stay up this year and regroup and as things stand we’re not getting cut adrift and a cup final as well.
Well there is rewriting history. The defeats to Liverpool and Arsenal we’re not unlucky they were self inflicted.
He was playing Jack in midfield and it was not working.
We have been hovering around the bottom all season so it has not been working.
I think it’s a case of individuals perspective rather than re-writing history. I didn’t expect us to win at Arsenal, bearing in mind at the time we really didn’t know how their season would pan out. Yes we made mistakes particularly for their second, but we also had a stone wall penalty turned down, which potentially means we win the game, so in my view unlucky. We went toe to toe with the current best side in the world and just couldn’t hold on and ok lost a man for the winning goal, but not every player is mane and not every player scores that, so other than wolves giving Liverpool their hardest game of the season is in my view something to look back on, where we currently stand, as a great effort-bad luck. Given the players got a 5 minute standing ovation from the holte at the time, there’s plenty others would agree, at the time anyway.
I hoped we wouldn’t be hovering around relegation all season but expected we would, out of interest what did you expect given the complete over haul of the team and the relative inexperience at this level.?
This thread is whether we’re worried, and I don’t want us to go down, and despite being a middle aged family man with a million things going on in life, it still puts a huge dent in my weekends when villa lose. But I choose not to be over negative until the point we are relegated or looking likely. We are currently holding our own and results went our way yesterday and let’s hope so today. I think 3 more wins and a couple of draws might be enough, and I think we’ll get them.
i didn’t see the Arsenal match, as it was before I got my Optus sport hookup. If it was such a stonewall penalty as you say, did it go to VAR and if not, why not? As I recall at the time everyone was fkd off that we lost when we should have got something.
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It was the most blatant handball you'll see all season at Arsenal. Think the penalty we got at Sheffield United only far more obvious.
Still a chance for Arsenal to get dragged into the relegation scrap. Tarquin, SHA losing, cheating, entitled, twats that they are.
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I was in the Holte v Liverpool and it was only when I watched the replay did I realize the fuck up that led to their 2 goals.Arsenal were down to 10 men and our manager was a rabbit in the headlights.
I expected us to be lower half the table but safe I did not expect our midfield to be so porous or so many of the abject performances where we have been all over the place, the last being Bournemouth.
We are capable of some very good football but we allways give any opposing team, plenty of opportunities to score against us and this is our biggest problem.
As I said perspective and expectations. I expected us to be around where we are and think smith and the players will have achieved something if we stay up with a cup final appearance to boot, given, as I said, over haul of squad and the nature of our injuries being so long term to such key players and positions.
Maybe smith was a rabbit in the headlights, but to be fair to him and going back John e’s comments, he’s learnt to sacrifice some of his preferred formation in order to compete and make us harder to beat. Last 5 league games since that change it’s been win 2 lost 2 draw 1, through in the Leicester cup games that goes to 3 2 2. That’s enough form to keep us up. People will come on say we have no chance of that form in the next five games, but we simply don’t know that yet.
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Throwing in VAR comments?? Really? I can’t remember if it went to VAR and they made another wrong call or they simply made the wrong call by it not going to VAR, but either way it was another wrong call.
I’m surprised anyone’s using VAR as an indication of any point to be honest
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Whatever anybody does, don't search for the handball, it will make you far too irritable for a Sunday morning. Cheating ******.
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Great "perspective" R and B!
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Agreed, very balanced summary R&B and about how I feel as well. Disagree on the Arsenal game as that was one that went begging for me but hopefully we correct that when we play them at home. More generally speaking I am reasonably confident we'll stay up because I think we'll pull out some results when we need to. Just like we did last year and like we did in the semi final.
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Great "perspective" R and B!
Were Rambo and Bruno exponents of Rhythm and Blues?
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we now have a team full of Smiths signings and we mostly play more like a Bruce team than what we were told a Smith team plays like
playing out from the back with Hause and Konsa who are maybe ok defenders but not very good footballers is like watching some sort of live car crash
I know what you mean but they aren't Smith's signings. That's not meant to exonerate him, but he was never here to make signings and he doesn't.
Apart from at least Konsa and Jota? He would certainly have pushed for those.
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Citys games been called off. For me this is good news for two reasons. A the weather conditions might have had a impact on citys performance and secondly means city get less of a break now for cup final as their game wi probably be next weekend now.
City have a awful amount of games coming up
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It will be replayed later in the season I'd have thought.
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They will surely play it next weekend.
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Great Bournemouth winning ffs. I knew sheffield United would cock ut up.
This is what we need to do win games back to back which we are struggling to do consistently
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Great "perspective" R and B!
Were Rambo and Bruno exponents of Rhythm and Blues?
No doubt he'd have recommended them, but I'd have thought they'd have had to be signed off by the 'committee' like all the others. That's £18m worth of business. I can't see the club suspending protocol just because DS knew they were good lads.
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Yessssssss Sheffield united get in !
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They will surely play it next weekend.
I thought that at first but I would imagine they all have holiday booked for next weekend.
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I'm less worried having looked at the form table. For all the talk of a Watford and Bournemouth revival, I'd take Samatta and a soon-to-return McGinn over West Ham and Bournemouth's next few games.
(https://i.ibb.co/vdbg6hz/Screenshot-2020-02-09-at-16-37-36.png) (https://ibb.co/vdbg6hz)
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Palace are slipping into it.
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I'm less worried having looked at the form table. For all the talk of a Watford and Bournemouth revival, I'd take Samatta and a soon-to-return McGinn over West Ham and Bournemouth's next few games.
(https://i.ibb.co/vdbg6hz/Screenshot-2020-02-09-at-16-37-36.png) (https://ibb.co/vdbg6hz)
An obvious understatement, but a win against Spurs next weekend would be very welcome looking at the table after this weekend's games.
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Palace are slipping into it.
Much sooner be in their position.
Their next 4 fixtures also don't feature any of the top teams so if they really did slip into it, they would have probably given Brighton, Watford and Bournemouth a helping hand out of it as well.
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They've not won since Boxing Day and have scored the fewest amount of goals in the league. We've got to be targeting them for 3 points at home.
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There is often a team in lower mid table who seem to be keeping their heads above water but due to complacency sleepwalk into relegation trouble late on. I think that was the case with Small Heath when they got relegated after winning the cup. I don't think Palace have considered being in a relegation battle whereas Villa and Norwich maybe half expected it. Maybe Brighton and Bournemouth half expected it too. I don't think Watford or West Ham were expecting to be in so much trouble either.
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There is often a team in lower mid table who seem to be keeping their heads above water but due to complacency sleepwalk into relegation trouble late on. I think that was the case with Small Heath when they got relegated after winning the cup. I don't think Palace have considered being in a relegation battle whereas Villa and Norwich maybe half expected it. Maybe Brighton and Bournemouth half expected it too. I don't think Watford or West Ham were expecting to be in so much trouble either.
Also us in the McLeish season.
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I thought newcastle would be the team to slip from the middle as I thought they were utterly shite down the villa, but maybe it’s Palace. True they do have to play other relegation fodder in the next few weeks, so they’ll either pull away doing us a favour in the process, or get dragged right into the mire.
Anyway good weekend for the villa and stress free as we never played 😬
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Saunders proved that a team blended from good and mediocre players can win big if they are properly motivated and superfit.
We have a couple of top players but the blend is not right and performances way too inconsistent.
You know you are in trouble when you are following the matches of fellow strugglers in real time and praying for bad results.
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Agreed, very balanced summary R&B and about how I feel as well. Disagree on the Arsenal game as that was one that went begging for me but hopefully we correct that when we play them at home. More generally speaking I am reasonably confident we'll stay up because I think we'll pull out some results when we need to. Just like we did last year and like we did in the semi final.
Im struggling to see where the points will come from in all honesty and think it could go right down to the wire on the last day with all sorts of possible outcomes. Obviously I hope we can find a way to do it. Hopefully Samagoal will go on a streak, Jack stays fit and McGinn comes back sooner than later. It’s going to be tough though I reckon, but I’m hoping they find a way to surprise me. I keep veering between thinking we’ll be Ok and we’ll go down, i suppose that’s a reflection of how close it all is right now. Honestly couldn’t say what will happen. As long as we manage to stay in with a shout- I’ll be happy and see what happens last few games.
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With who they have to play, I sincerely hope Palace are well out of it with straight wins in a few games time.
Still can't believe we didn't get a pen at Bournemouth for the head punch last week.ad thing is, give us the point at Palace, point at Arsenal and point last week at Bournemouth for awful decisions and we are well set to survive. If we do have anything due to us in the last few weeks it's 3 or 4 dodgy decisions to win us some points.
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Dean needs to learn how to motivate this team. Too many poor performances against shit team where we gift them points.
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Agree Ozzy I’m, if Palace are in trouble after the next 4 then they will have helped our closest rivals.
It just proves that the most important results are our own.
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Results have gone for us so far in this winter break round of games.
It's All well and good for those around us to not get points (a good result in Brighton and Watford drawing) but we simply have to beat Spurs.
It would be a massive result and would put us top of the relegation scrap.
Looking at our remaining games I think that Villa Park is the key.
Even though the home games look difficult I think this will be where our fate will be decided.
I fear for us in the away games, I don't think we are going to get much joy away.
We must win at least four games to survive, which means beating the likes of Spurs, Chelsea and Arsenal as well as Wolves and Palace.
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Spurs, Man United and Arsenal on reputation look tough. The reality is, name apart, one is mid-table with fewer wins than us, the other is upper mid-table with their best player out with broken vertebrae and Spurs look a shadow of what they have been, having not won an away game since mid-December.
It doesn't mean we will win or ought to win, but there shouldn't be anything to fear or any reason why we cannot win against these names.
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We need a minimum of 3 home wins, 1 away and 2 draws. I think we will pick up another away win though, especially after McGinn is back.
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Sorry folks, but I just can't see it happening.
Love to be proved wrong of course
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Last game of the season..... West Ham away! :-\
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It’s certainly hard to see where the points are coming from if our performances levels don’t improve. Play with the passion and desire like we did against Leicester and we’ll be fine...but on the other end of the spectrum, we’re equally as likely to be piss poor like we were against Bournemouth. These last 13 games is where Dean needs to earn his money.
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We need a minimum of 3 home wins, 1 away and 2 draws. I think we will pick up another away win though, especially after McGinn is back.
Yes, and it is doable.
I hope that
- Smith has been progressively getting them fitter: we have consistently looked less fit than many of our opponents
- the cumulative impact of bedding in new players and getting used to this new league will mean a progressive improvement through to the end of the season
- linked to the 2 points above, we can close out games better, converting former losing positions to draws and former drawing positions into wins
- the return of McGinn provides new spark and gives JG and others more space
There are lots of ifs and buts, but I do think we're better-placed than some teams to ramp up some improvements.
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There's a lot of "The way we're playing..." yet the reality is that before the game at Bournemouth we were second in the form table over the previous six and had won a two-legged semi against one of the best teams in the league.
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There's a lot of "The way we're playing..." yet the reality is that before the game at Bournemouth we were second in the form table over the previous six
That can't possibly be right. Liverpool are obviously top with lots of straight wins in the league, then, at a guess Man City and Southampton have been in better form and taken more wins than we have in the last 6.
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There's a lot of "The way we're playing..." yet the reality is that before the game at Bournemouth we were second in the form table over the previous six
That can't possibly be right. Liverpool are obviously top with lots of straight wins in the league, then, at a guess Man City and Southampton have been in better form and taken more wins than we have in the last 6.
I think we were 5th (joint) over the previous 5.
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I assume it's bottom half teams.
Brighton have 1 win in 10 games now and Watford now haven't won in their last 4. West Ham only one win since middle of December.
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Whatever happens, happens. Like I said before, I can’t see where we will pick up the points. But we might. I’m writing off the Spurs match though, can’t see us getting anything from that one. Then what?
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Whatever happens, happens. Like I said before, I can’t see where we will pick up the points. But we might. I’m writing off the Spurs match though, can’t see us getting anything from that one. Then what?
As Dave says above we were doing well in the form table pre Bournemouth. If we're in trouble, imagine what the fans of our relegation rivals are saying.
It does look tough, but it's far from a lost cause.
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Consistency has been our biggest problem, aswell as our leaky defence, but I do think we have 4 more wins in us from 13 matches.If we don't get that, then we don't deserve to stay up anyway.
It's hard to predict where those 4 wins will come from, we didn't expect to lose at Bournemouth, we didn't expect to win at Burnley so who knows. I think it will be tight, but I think we will be just about ok, and would be a marvellous achievement by Dean Smith when you throw in a cup final appearance too.
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lets not lose to Spurs at least . . Id be happy with a draw but its about time we beat one of these so called top teams like all the other teams around us have seemed to do . .
Shame its not a friday night game Id fancy a win then .
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We just need that unexpected win. Spurs, Chelsea, Arse...just that win that’ll get our rivals worried, just like some of theirs have done to us. We simply cannot expect those down there with us to give us favourable results, we have to do it ourselves.
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I'd bloody love us to do Spurs.
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Consistency has been our biggest problem, aswell as our leaky defence, but I do think we have 4 more wins in us from 13 matches.If we don't get that, then we don't deserve to stay up anyway.
It's hard to predict where those 4 wins will come from, we didn't expect to lose at Bournemouth, we didn't expect to win at Burnley so who knows. I think it will be tight, but I think we will be just about ok, and would be a marvellous achievement by Dean Smith when you throw in a cup final appearance too.
I’m really not sure we’ll need 4 wins. It’s built on the presumption it’s going to take 40 points to stay up and I don’t think that’ll be the case, so many tough games for not only but most of our rivals. I honestly think around 37 might be enough, if that’s the case 3 wins, 3 draws, leaving room for 7 defeats.
But I know nowt end of the day.
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Looking at the fixtures, I think we'll end up on 31 points. I fancy us to beat Palace at home, and West Ham away, and I think we'll unfortunately find a way to lose all the others. Not making the most of winning positions at the start of the season is going to cost us because it's usually at the start of the season when promoted sides build up a bank of points and get those surprise results.
I agree that there really is nothing to fear in Man U, Arsenal or Spurs, but we just seem to always find a way not to beat the "name" sides. Not just this iteration, but all Villa sides I remember watching over the years.
The Spurs game on opening day looks very much like a bellweather game, and is especially annoying looking back now given how crap they've been this season. Had we held on, I think we'd be about 4-6 points better off right now, if not more.
Here's hoping for some amnesia Sunday where our players forget they're Villa playing a "name", and act like players of other clubs and simply beat a mediocre mid table side who really should not be as up for it as we are.
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Bloody hell, there can be some proper negativity from our fans at times but tipping us to lose 11 of our remaining 13 games is right up there.
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Consistency has been our biggest problem, aswell as our leaky defence, but I do think we have 4 more wins in us from 13 matches.If we don't get that, then we don't deserve to stay up anyway.
It's hard to predict where those 4 wins will come from, we didn't expect to lose at Bournemouth, we didn't expect to win at Burnley so who knows. I think it will be tight, but I think we will be just about ok, and would be a marvellous achievement by Dean Smith when you throw in a cup final appearance too.
I’m really not sure we’ll need 4 wins. It’s built on the presumption it’s going to take 40 points to stay up and I don’t think that’ll be the case, so many tough games for not only but most of our rivals. I honestly think around 37 might be enough, if that’s the case 3 wins, 3 draws, leaving room for 7 defeats.
But I know nowt end of the day.
I agree, I think the magic figure of 40 points is a bit outdated. I think 37 is more likely to be the magic figure these days. The attitude and spirit also seems good compared to 1987 and 2016.
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Quite a bold call to think we won't draw another game this season!
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40 still gets used but I agree, 37-38 is usually enough and I wouldn't be massively shocked if it's as low as 35. It's been a funny season with so many bigger clubs having a bad year (only really liverpool have excelled, even Man City have looked ropey at times) but with 4th still being possible for anyone from Wolves up I can see the 9th-10th gap getting wider as the season runs on and it ending up as a very clear top half and bottom half this year.
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Telegraph Football Nerd predicts we go down as we concede over 17 shots per game.
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Looking at the fixtures, I think we'll end up on 31 points. I fancy us to beat Palace at home, and West Ham away, and I think we'll unfortunately find a way to lose all the others. Not making the most of winning positions at the start of the season is going to cost us because it's usually at the start of the season when promoted sides build up a bank of points and get those surprise results.
I agree that there really is nothing to fear in Man U, Arsenal or Spurs, but we just seem to always find a way not to beat the "name" sides. Not just this iteration, but all Villa sides I remember watching over the years.
The Spurs game on opening day looks very much like a bellweather game, and is especially annoying looking back now given how crap they've been this season. Had we held on, I think we'd be about 4-6 points better off right now, if not more.
Here's hoping for some amnesia Sunday where our players forget they're Villa playing a "name", and act like players of other clubs and simply beat a mediocre mid table side who really should not be as up for it as we are.
That’s up there with telling a 5 year There’s no Santa 😂
Maybe you’ll be proved right but that is unbelievably pessimistic and doesn’t really follow our form (albeit up and down) for the season so far.
Saying that I don’t think we’ll get more than say 3 wins, but a few draws as well to see us over the line. Not sure whether it’s worth predicting who we’ll beat or otherwise as this doesn’t feel like 2016, and they’ll be one or two surprises on the way, hopefully starting with tomorrow.
The stat about shots conceded is grim and stems as has been pointed out from our inconsistent midfield. However, ultimately the only real stat that will decide our results this season is goals scored and conceded, and we’re doing better than 3 other clubs currently with a game in hand
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we need to learn to draw games. this has been our issue.
4 wins, 3 draws, 6 defeats will do it.
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Why is our form going to collapse to 2016 proportions again? What about the 3 sides below us?
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Telegraph Football Nerd predicts we go down as we concede over 17 shots per game.
That’s a bit misleading without much context though. We conceded over twenty shots against Burnley, for example, but only really one or two of them were decent goal scoring chances.
I’d also imagine that figure has improved since we changed system to three at the back.
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Have we conceded the highest xG too? Not sure how they determine an expected goal but that stat might be more revealing than letting teams take lots of potshots against us from unlikely scoring positions.
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We've played 25 games, and kept 4 clean sheets. Of course our inability to defend and keep shots out is hurting us.
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just watch a game with your own eyes that will tell you if your playing well or not it’s easy
you don’t need stats to tell you how you are performing you can actually see it right in front of you
I was discussing stats with someone on here last year who was obsessed with them, every point he made was with a stat
he produced stats which showed that Hourahane was a better player than McGinn I said I’ve seen them both play mate for the last few games I know which ones the best player
Stats are a load of bollocks just there to try and prove right is wrong most of the time
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just watch a game with your own eyes that will tell you if your playing well or not it’s easy
you don’t need stats to tell you how you are performing you can actually see it right in front of you
I was discussing stats with someone on here last year who was obsessed with them, every point he made was with a stat
he produced stats which showed that Hourahane was a better player than McGinn I said I’ve seen them both play mate for the last few games I know which ones the best player
Stats are a load of bollocks just there to try and prove right is wrong most of the time
what I see is teams running and passing through our midfield to create chances. These stats just back that up and maybe, indicate how big the problem is.
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just watch a game with your own eyes that will tell you if your playing well or not it’s easy
you don’t need stats to tell you how you are performing you can actually see it right in front of you
I was discussing stats with someone on here last year who was obsessed with them, every point he made was with a stat
he produced stats which showed that Hourahane was a better player than McGinn I said I’ve seen them both play mate for the last few games I know which ones the best player
Stats are a load of bollocks just there to try and prove right is wrong most of the time
what I see is teams running and passing through our midfield to create chances. These stats just back that up and maybe, indicate how big the problem is.
still don’t need stats to prove that
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All we had to do this year was finish 17th.
So disappointed the way it is panning out. We have been in trouble since the first game. We have never really caught a breather -today has took the wind out my sails..
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When you play in a league across 38 games, across many months, few things are ever down to luck. Of course you can be lucky or unlucky across that time but generally speaking it's down to what we deserve by way of the way you play and your overall attitude. Teams that win a lot of game deserve to. Teams that lose a lot of games deserve to. Teams that go down deserve to. You can analyze the details to death but when you play across 26 games in the manner we have or any of the other sides around us, it will come down to what we deserve. And right now we have completely earned our position in the table and very possibly our relegation in the few months time.
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16 games we've conceded two or more goals. It's just not good enough.
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The reason we lose so many games is because, defence midfield and up front, we are a piss poor side who, whenever we look like getting something from a match, try to throw it away every time.
It’s simply not good enough, and it hasn’t been since day one.
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Defensively we've been poor all season. Just constant individual errors. This can't just be about the personnel. We just never set up to be solid. We are an attractive attacking team, we play well at times, but our defending and defensive set up is absolutely killing us.
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It was only a point but it's another point. I felt we were gone after the Bournemouth game although we played better today I haven't changed my opinion.
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Without reading the other posts I imagine I'm not alone in thinking Son goal has relegated us.
That goal knocked the stuffing out of me and when you see the reactions of our 11 at the end I can see our season going into a tailspin again.
Reminded me of losing to Leeds last minute last season. We won one game in two and a half months after that game. No need to think where we're going back to if we repeat that.
You simply can't play aswell as we did first half and go in actually losing. And then a battling 2-2 and a goal kick on the 93rd minute, respect the point ffs.
Instead we had about 7 players in Spurs half when we'd barely threatened for 25 minutes.
In games like this the naivity of the 11 out on the pitch is incredible to see sometimes. Why didn't the actual back 5 just drop back as soon as the goal kick was taken?! It's something Newcastle would've done to grind out another draw and well they're at least six points clear of us currently.
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Haven't been able to shut games down and battle it out for draws. We have a soft under belly and an open, soft approach to games. Toughen up and concentrate, fight for every block and knock down or we will be playing Reading again next season watching Wesley lumber around not getting a kick against cloggers like Chris Samba (unless he's retired).
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Defensively we've been poor all season. Just constant individual errors. This can't just be about the personnel. We just never set up to be solid. We are an attractive attacking team, we play well at times, but our defending and defensive set up is absolutely killing us.
I have been really disappointed in Smith and think he was very lucky not to get the sack after Watford away.
Why has he not been more pragmatic and tried to make us more solid? You can draw your way to safety in this league but we are so bloody so open.
A more seasoned and pragmatic manager would have 4-5 extra points on the board with this lot.
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I think it’s partly belief in the players in seeing these games out, there has been a theme of naivety throughout the season and I think it could be due to a lack of experience amongst the bulk of our squad.
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I don't think I would swap our next five games for the next five fixtures of Palace, Brighton, Bournemouth, West Ham and Watford. Like a lot of struggling sides we have good spells in games but then have bad spells on good days and on bad days we are just bad. We play away to Southampton, Leicester and Newcastle and home to Chelsea and Wolves. Palace, Bournemouth, West Ham and Watford all have to face Liverpool in their next five fixtures.
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Today was another example of when at 2-2 with 5 min to go you got into a formation that essentially stifles the life out of the game. Spurs for their challenges this season have incredible talent all over the pitch so to continue to play a wide open go for the win style was so fucking naive that late on. It’s again on the manager.
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16 games we've conceded two or more goals. It's just not good enough.
Yep. With such a weak defence we need to score at least 2 just to get a draw.
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The annoying thing is that with some of our players like Grealish and a couple of the others we have the ability in the side to hold the ball in the opposition half in the dying minutes of games.
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Us going for the win, formation etc, has nothing to do with Engels deciding to do what he did.
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Until players stop making stupid fucking decisions that Sunday league players would get shit for then we're fucked.
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Im sorry but i blame Smith. We have been making collosal fuck uos defensively alm seaaon and getting no better.
He is taking us down. A good manager would not be us ourselves handing the opposition victories. Engels the bottler he is too blane but smuth overall has to take the blame for the posotion we find ourselves.
He is under achieving
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Wasn’t just one error though, we were making them for most of the match. But for poor finishing and good goalkeeping we would have lost this match 6-2.
Relegation more or less a formality now. I think the owners think we’re up a season earlier than planned so we’re no worse off. Naive if so.
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Were not going to pick up many more points this season. The defence will see to that.
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Wasn’t just one error though, we were making them for most of the match. But for poor finishing and good goalkeeping we would have lost this match 6-2.
Relegation more or less a formality now. I think the owners think we’re up a season earlier than planned so we’re no worse off. Naive if so.
Problem for me is that Grealish dragged the team up last season. He won’t be doing that next year as much as we kid ourselves otherwise.
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Wasn’t just one error though, we were making them for most of the match. But for poor finishing and good goalkeeping we would have lost this match 6-2.
Relegation more or less a formality now. I think the owners think we’re up a season earlier than planned so we’re no worse off. Naive if so.
Get relegated and we'll be a season behind.
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Until players stop making stupid fucking decisions that Sunday league players would get shit for then we're fucked.
We were making these mistakes in August. Now February and still making the same fucking mistakes.
Unless we dramatically improve defensively we will go down.
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Wasn’t just one error though, we were making them for most of the match. But for poor finishing and good goalkeeping we would have lost this match 6-2.
Relegation more or less a formality now. I think the owners think we’re up a season earlier than planned so we’re no worse off. Naive if so.
Relegation is not more or less a formality. We're not in the bottom three.
Bad result yes but come on.
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If the season ended now we'd stay up. How the fuck does that make relegation a formality?
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Wasn’t just one error though, we were making them for most of the match. But for poor finishing and good goalkeeping we would have lost this match 6-2.
Relegation more or less a formality now. I think the owners think we’re up a season earlier than planned so we’re no worse off. Naive if so.
Get relegated and we'll be a season behind.
Going down would be a complete disaster.
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I’ll feel better if Man City beat the shit out of West Ham in a couple of days. Followed up by Liverpool the following Monday
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I don't remember Villa making such basic mistakes when we last went down. Our overall level of performance is much better, but the incredible mistakes are going to be the reason we go down. Unfortunately we do not seem to be learning. So I'm more than worried.
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Relegation isn't a formality. This week in 2016 we lost 6-0 at home to Liverpool, and were eight points from safety. That's bordering on formality.
We're in a relegation battle, definitely. But this idea that we're "definitely down" is defeatist in the extreme. Losing to a last-minute winner today leaves me sick, but losing 3-2 in the last-minute to a team challenging for the champions league places is not the sort of result you'd get if relegation was a "formality". We COULD have won today, we weren't outclassed.
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Us going for the win, formation etc, has nothing to do with Engels deciding to do what he did.
Surely though given we had 5 actual defenders on the pitch at that point and there were only 30 seconds left you do damage limitation at that point as chances of winning the game were very minimal.
If a CB misses the ball you have 2-3 players on the cover ready to take out Son 30 yards from goal. Instead there was just Hause trailing in his wake.
As much as we give him stick there's no way a Steve Bruce side would've conceded that type of goal. Worst to me is we nearly conceded the exact same one 15 minutes before when ball went under Konsa's foot and Son ran through.
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In other news, we got another headed goal.
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If the season ended now we'd stay up. How the fuck does that make relegation a formality?
Well the season isnt over yet and im sure this wont be the last painful shitty defeat
Its days like today where teams go on and get releagted. Absolute disaster today. Fucking disaster
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If the season ended now we'd stay up. How the fuck does that make relegation a formality?
Well the season isnt over yet and im sure this wont be the last painful shitty defeat
Its days like today where teams go on and get releagted. Absolute disaster today. Fucking disaster
No over-reaction there at all.
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Losing Grealish, McGinn and Mings I reckon would leave us with a good chance of coming back with some sensible additions.
And before any accusations about being overly pessimistic, I think this is probably the thread for it.
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Very. We just hurl points away.
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Losing Grealish, McGinn and Mings I reckon would leave us with a good chance of coming back with some sensible additions.
And before any accusations about being overly pessimistic, I think this is probably the thread for it.
But do you trust Suso to spend the money wisely?
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Losing Grealish, McGinn and Mings I reckon would leave us with a good chance of coming back with some sensible additions.
And before any accusations about being overly pessimistic, I think this is probably the thread for it.
Well be interesting to see our transfer strategy if they worst happens and we're looking good for promotion in 12 months. Yet again this season has taught us signing too many projects and you get this sort of season whereas an experienced head or two outfield like Reina could've got us 5-6 more points with better game management.
Relegation this time if it happens was so much more preventable than the last time when we really needed it to cleanse the club.
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A bit of a "straw that broke the camels back" for me today, bug I really, really hope I'm wrong.
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Will Watford losing to Everton in the last minute relegate them?
Will Bournemouth, losing late on at Sheffield United so late, has that knocked the stuffing out of them?
We're 17th, we are in an absolute fight with 6 or maybe 7 other clubs. At the moment we're winning, just about.
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The defence is a massive problem. The amount of chances we give the opposition is alarming. We saw it again today. It's been going on so long I dont think theres anything that can be done about it until the seasons over.
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I hope we can pick ourselves up and we don’t go into a tail spin. If that happened to Watford or West Ham etc, I would be saying “ that’s going to kill them” somehow I hope we can kick on. I understand the posters saying “ we’re not in the bottom three” but we are bloody close & I am worried. Posting on a forum all will be fine, won’t make it happen. If we go down, today and six points given to Bournemouth, will be what I remember. If we stay up the win v Watford at home and Burnley and Norwich away will be the points.
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I dont pay much attention to other clubs so maybe the bottom 3 are noticeably worse than us, which would be grounds for optimism. Someone tell me they are please.
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If the season ended now we'd stay up. How the fuck does that make relegation a formality?
Well the season isnt over yet and im sure this wont be the last painful shitty defeat
Its days like today where teams go on and get releagted. Absolute disaster today. Fucking disaster
No over-reaction there at all.
Ok so everything's fine. We just carry on losing games from a winning position and make stupid league two defensive mistakes like all season. But year over reaction!
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If the season ended now we'd stay up. How the fuck does that make relegation a formality?
Well the season isnt over yet and im sure this wont be the last painful shitty defeat
Its days like today where teams go on and get releagted. Absolute disaster today. Fucking disaster
No over-reaction there at all.
Ok so everything's fine. We just carry on losing games from a winning position and make stupid league two defensive mistakes like all season. But year over reaction!
Yes, but there are middle points in between 'Absolute disaster, fucking disaster' and 'everything's fine'.
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If the season ended now we'd stay up. How the fuck does that make relegation a formality?
Well the season isnt over yet and im sure this wont be the last painful shitty defeat
Its days like today where teams go on and get releagted. Absolute disaster today. Fucking disaster
No over-reaction there at all.
Ok so everything's fine. We just carry on losing games from a winning position and make stupid league two defensive mistakes like all season. But year over reaction!
You make a fair point. However we are still in with a chance of staying up, but I understand your frustration
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One of the many 'Wish I had a pound for every time it happens' events on here is when a reply that things aren't as black as they're painted gets a variation on the response "No, everything's great". It isn't, but nobody's said that.
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If the season ended now we'd stay up. How the fuck does that make relegation a formality?
Well the season isnt over yet and im sure this wont be the last painful shitty defeat
Its days like today where teams go on and get releagted. Absolute disaster today. Fucking disaster
No over-reaction there at all.
Ok so everything's fine. We just carry on losing games from a winning position and make stupid league two defensive mistakes like all season. But year over reaction!
You make a fair point. However we are still in with a chance of staying up, but I understand your frustration
It was a fucking disaster. You cant continually drop points like we are and expect to stay ul. Thats the facts. This teqms had lkng enough to gel and its not gelled.
The summer recruitment for me has been generally poor..hause wesley jota el ghaz engels and trez have generally been poor to shit. Thats close to 50m wasted
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I'm worried because of our remaining fixtures, our defensive vulnerability, our habit of throwing away points, the quality of some of our players, and my concerns about the manager.
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You are repetetive as fuck.
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If the season ended now we'd stay up. How the fuck does that make relegation a formality?
Well the season isnt over yet and im sure this wont be the last painful shitty defeat
Its days like today where teams go on and get releagted. Absolute disaster today. Fucking disaster
No over-reaction there at all.
Ok so everything's fine. We just carry on losing games from a winning position and make stupid league two defensive mistakes like all season. But year over reaction!
You make a fair point. However we are still in with a chance of staying up, but I understand your frustration
We have a chance but fir its a very slight chance as our home games are against the better sides which we are absolutely hopeless against.
Im not sure if its a mentality thing but jesus they really do shit themselves against the better sides
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Yes Demitri, there has been some poor players who have come in. I get what you are saying, you are correct. But, but we might do i. I’m not a happy clapper, I have moaned about Dean, players etc and today was hard to take as we don’t have any easy games left, we messed most of them up.
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You are repetetive as fuck.
Who is?? Can’t someone post an opinion, without this? You might not agree, but that is a poor comment, a poor comment
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Yes Demitri, there has been some poor players who have come in. I get what you are saying, you are correct. But, but we might do i. I’m not a happy clapper, I have moaned about Dean, players etc and today was hard to take as we don’t have any easy games left, we messed most of them up.
Yeah. I know i am coming across reallg negative today but im so disappointed today. I trevelled up to brum for the weekend as i dont live here. Despite it being terrible weather i came and that was really hard to take as we have seen it so many times. Punished for sloppy league one defending.
We are not getting any better and its really alarming for me. I dont expect us to be world beaters but for 150m i expecf a team that can defend half decent in periods of the season and some passion.
Dont see any of that. Take trez for example luiz was through and instead of putting to hkm he tries to be a intergalactic hero and wastes a golden opportunity. The team doesnt seem like a team for periods of the season.
Think the scouting was really poor.
You are repetetive as fuck.
Who is?? Can’t someone post an opinion, without this? You might not agree, but that is a poor comment, a poor comment
Completely agree well said 👏
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Safe journey home UTV
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Yeah my comment was out of order and said in the heat of the moment, for that I apologize.
The over the top hyperbolic nature of certain posters in each and every thread after todays game is very tedious to read though.
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Agreed that we are not very good. We are not even good. However to avoid relegation you don’t have to be very good, good or even bad. You just have to be not very very bad. We are just that. So we are not nailed on for relegation never have been and never will be till the last game is played. Despite losing two more crucial games we are still not in relegation position. Just need to keep going and picking up points like we have been doing and we will see come the day.
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At times today we weren’t good or even very good...we were excellent. We absolutely dominated Spurs for the first half hour and should have been 2 or 3 up. Unfortunately we do have a flip side to the excellent coin, and that borders on utter shite to sheer incompetence. We’re so consistently inconsistent even during a 90+ minute game.
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I'd go so far as to say we're pretty good in patches - but those patches rarely last entire matches, or multiple matches.
When we went down in 2016, we rarely looked like a decent side, and although we've struggled, and lost late goals against a lot of sides, we've looked like we could compete and event beat some of the top teams. I've said previously, but we were within a few minutes of beating Spurs, Arsenal and Liverpool this season. Those were games where we got zero points, but we're not a million miles away from winning a few games like those, and games like today. It always feels worse losing so late. Imagine how the Watford fans felt a couple of weeks ago.
Sheff Utd, who everyone agrees are having a brilliant season, have only won 3 more than we have. The big difference is draws, which we simply can't hold on to for some reason.
I still think we'll be OK, and we'll be a much better side next season with the younger players having had a year's experience and two or three quality additions.
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Agreed that we are not very good. We are not even good. However to avoid relegation you don’t have to be very good, good or even bad. You just have to be not very very bad. We are just that. So we are not nailed on for relegation never have been and never will be till the last game is played. Despite losing two more crucial games we are still not in relegation position. Just need to keep going and picking up points like we have been doing and we will see come the day.
As amfy said a few weeks ago, we'd settle for seventeenth and this is what seventeenth looks like.
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Yeah my comment was out of order and said in the heat of the moment, for that I apologize.
The over the top hyperbolic nature of certain posters in each and every thread after todays game is very tedious to read though.
I apologise luke. Im hurting tonight and gettkng a lot of aggro from my spurs mates
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I'd go so far as to say we're pretty good in patches - but those patches rarely last entire matches, or multiple matches.
When we went down in 2016, we rarely looked like a decent side, and although we've struggled, and lost late goals against a lot of sides, we've looked like we could compete and event beat some of the top teams. I've said previously, but we were within a few minutes of beating Spurs, Arsenal and Liverpool this season. Those were games where we got zero points, but we're not a million miles away from winning a few games like those, and games like today. It always feels worse losing so late. Imagine how the Watford fans felt a couple of weeks ago.
Sheff Utd, who everyone agrees are having a brilliant season, have only won 3 more than we have. The big difference is draws, which we simply can't hold on to for some reason.
I still think we'll be OK, and we'll be a much better side next season with the younger players having had a year's experience and two or three quality additions.
Good post Smithy .......I wished I shared your optimism :)
I think we have been far too naive in games against the likes of Tottenham and Liverpool et al ......a bit of professionalism is called for to see games out.....I would have thought John Terry would have drummed that into the players
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I'd go so far as to say we're pretty good in patches - but those patches rarely last entire matches, or multiple matches.
When we went down in 2016, we rarely looked like a decent side, and although we've struggled, and lost late goals against a lot of sides, we've looked like we could compete and event beat some of the top teams. I've said previously, but we were within a few minutes of beating Spurs, Arsenal and Liverpool this season. Those were games where we got zero points, but we're not a million miles away from winning a few games like those, and games like today. It always feels worse losing so late. Imagine how the Watford fans felt a couple of weeks ago.
Sheff Utd, who everyone agrees are having a brilliant season, have only won 3 more than we have. The big difference is draws, which we simply can't hold on to for some reason.
I still think we'll be OK, and we'll be a much better side next season with the younger players having had a year's experience and two or three quality additions.
Danger with just comparing us to 2016 version is that is simply one of the worst top flight outfits in last 30 years, the points total shows as much. As history has shown though even those types of teams have some good players lurking in them.
I think we're similar to 12-13. Lots of enthusiasm and good play at times but always a sense we're not far from a woeful run of form as happened in the middle part of that season. Vlaar-Delph-Benteke held things together as much as Mings-McGinn-Grealish would if they were all fit at same time.
We were actually in worse shape and still stayed up with our front 3 getting hot that year. Of course didn't then kick on with more bargain based signings that summer.
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I'd go so far as to say we're pretty good in patches - but those patches rarely last entire matches, or multiple matches.
When we went down in 2016, we rarely looked like a decent side, and although we've struggled, and lost late goals against a lot of sides, we've looked like we could compete and event beat some of the top teams. I've said previously, but we were within a few minutes of beating Spurs, Arsenal and Liverpool this season. Those were games where we got zero points, but we're not a million miles away from winning a few games like those, and games like today. It always feels worse losing so late. Imagine how the Watford fans felt a couple of weeks ago.
Sheff Utd, who everyone agrees are having a brilliant season, have only won 3 more than we have. The big difference is draws, which we simply can't hold on to for some reason.
I still think we'll be OK, and we'll be a much better side next season with the younger players having had a year's experience and two or three quality additions.
Good post Smithy .......I wished I shared your optimism :)
I think we have been far too naive in games against the likes of Tottenham and Liverpool et al ......a bit of professionalism is called for to see games out.....I would have thought John Terry would have drummed that into the players
Ultimately, we lost today because of an individual mistake. The sort of mistake he'll make maybe once in his career. Not that he'll learn to hoof it next time, but that 99/100 he'll control it, like he does most the time.
If he'd taken the ball down, then messed around with it and been dispossessed to lose the goal, I'd agree it's more of a coaching issue - but missing the ball isn't really about game management, just an individual lapse.
I still feel a bit sick about it to be honest, but I'm sure he feels worse. It would definitely hurt less to have lost to a piece of individual brilliance.
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I'd go so far as to say we're pretty good in patches - but those patches rarely last entire matches, or multiple matches.
When we went down in 2016, we rarely looked like a decent side, and although we've struggled, and lost late goals against a lot of sides, we've looked like we could compete and event beat some of the top teams. I've said previously, but we were within a few minutes of beating Spurs, Arsenal and Liverpool this season. Those were games where we got zero points, but we're not a million miles away from winning a few games like those, and games like today. It always feels worse losing so late. Imagine how the Watford fans felt a couple of weeks ago.
Sheff Utd, who everyone agrees are having a brilliant season, have only won 3 more than we have. The big difference is draws, which we simply can't hold on to for some reason.
I still think we'll be OK, and we'll be a much better side next season with the younger players having had a year's experience and two or three quality additions.
Danger with just comparing us to 2016 version is that is simply one of the worst top flight outfits in last 30 years, the points total shows as much. As history has shown though even those types of teams have some good players lurking in them.
I think we're similar to 12-13. Lots of enthusiasm and good play at times but always a sense we're not far from a woeful run of form as happened in the middle part of that season. Vlaar-Delph-Benteke held things together as much as Mings-McGinn-Grealish would if they were all fit at same time.
We were actually in worse shape and still stayed up with our front 3 getting hot that year. Of course didn't then kick on with more bargain based signings that summer.
Indeed, I certainly wasn't trying to draw comparisons between this side and the one in 2016 (they are, as you point out very different). I was merely pointing out that by reading the fatalist reactions of some posters on here you'd think we WERE watching the team of 2016.
Every fan is entitled to their view, it's their club as much as it is mine, and I hate to think of any fellow Villan feeling shit about our side. I guess I just struggle to see how we're "definitely down" with 12 games to go and while we're not currently in the relegation places. We're in a relegation fight, definitely, no doubt about it, but it feels like people are throwing in the towel when the bell's only just gone for the end of the first round.
I just hope the people in and around the changing room have a more positive outlook.
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One of my neighbours is a close relative of Engels` partner - I'm still waiting to see him to ascertain why Engels has not been making the bench and why the heck he didn't welly it today :)
I like Engels and Mings but they do make some errors - they appear " over confident or cocky" sometimes - hopefully they learn from such blips
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We're not down but with the games running out we simply need to be taking points from games we play reasonably well in. It was only two weeks ago we played pretty poorly at Bournemouth and that was 4 days after a fantastic cup win so a bad performance is normally around the corner and that's why happens with a young team.
Was criminal to lose like we did and in the 94th minute.
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One of my neighbours is a close relative of Engels` partner - I'm still waiting to see him to ascertain why Engels has not been making the bench and why the heck he didn't welly it today :)
I like Engels and Mings but they do make some errors - they appear " over confident or cocky" sometimes - hopefully they learn from such blips
I think what you see in Engels and Mings is what you see in pretty much any "ball playing" centre half, which Smith clearly likes to play with. People are still saying this sort of thing about John Stones. Defenders who just defend and always play the percentage ball don't make these sorts of mistakes, but they also give away possession a lot. I think ball-playing centre-halves who can defend, rarely make mistakes, and can pass the ball really well are once in a generation - and I don't think Mings and Engels are at that level, you can only hope the can get mistakes down to a level where it's not costing us.
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Ironically didn't think the Spurs CBs were much better at all, I rate Toby but the way Grealish just breezed past him in the first half was funny to watch. Sanchez always struck me as a liability as he comes from the same reading of the game as hause and Konsa. They were poor defending corners all game aswell. Vertonghen was a good CB but also lost pace and can't get in their side anymore.
Ultimately Spurs have the attack to bail them out time and again (they've kept 4 clean sheets all season). We don't.
Don't think there's many world class CBs in the league anymore bar Van Dijk, Laporte and the odd other CB and that's reflected in the top 8 teams struggling to keep clean sheets.
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Ironically didn't think the Spurs CBs were much better at all, I rate Toby but the way Grealish just breezed past him in the first half was funny to watch. Sanchez always struck me as a liability as he comes from the same reading of the game as hause and Konsa. They were poor defending corners all game aswell. Vertonghen was a good CB but also lost pace and can't get in their side anymore.
Ultimately Spurs have the attack to bail them out time and again (they've kept 4 clean sheets all season). We don't.
Don't think there's many world class CBs in the league anymore bar Van Dijk, Laporte and the odd other CB and that's reflected in the top 8 teams struggling to keep clean sheets.
I think if we played two uo top we could ahvw win today as their defence was as bad as ours. They know they stole one today
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I cannot believe how optimistic I was last May. We had a knack of drawing games in the Championship - it was the thing that held us back from the automatic places - but I thought it would be the thing that would keep us up in the premier league.
I thought we would draw 10-11 this season and win 9-10.
I am alarmed at our inability to draw games. Like, we have thrown away draws against Bournemouth at home, Palace away, Arsenal away, Liverpool at home, Spurs at home. That's five points and I know there are others that I can't just think of. 3-4 extra points right now would be MASSIVE.
It is incredibly frustrating.
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I cannot believe how optimistic I was last May. We had a knack of drawing games in the Championship - it was the thing that held us back from the automatic places - but I thought it would be the thing that would keep us up in the premier league.
I thought we would draw 10-11 this season and win 9-10.
I am alarmed at our inability to draw games. Like, we have thrown away draws against Bournemouth at home, Palace away, Arsenal away, Liverpool at home, Spurs at home. That's five points and I know there are others that I can't just think of. 3-4 extra points right now would be MASSIVE.
It is incredibly frustrating.
WE have played against ten men I think four times this season. Losing 3 abs 1 draw. It’s piss poor and I do maintain smiths doing a very poor to average job. He is under achieving for me and big questions may have to be asked end if season if things do not improve I am afraid.
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It's 6 times we've played 10 men. W1 D1 L4. One of those was a late one when we were already 3 down, but it is a poor record.
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I'm still upset about losing out on that point at Palace (and them gaining all 3) thanks to that idiot Kevin Friend but when you see the way we've thrown away points this season its hard to argue we aren't exactly where we deserve to be right now.
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It's so frustrating. I think we have some good players, I enjoy watching us play, I feel a connection to this team that i didn't have last time we were in the division. And the first half an hour today i thought, well, we are a lot better than I give us cedit for and we may break the narrative this time and beat a "top 6" team. But to borrow from Jurassic Park, the Villa always find a way ...
The reason I thought we'd only get 6 more points looking at the fixtures is not because I think we're shit, Dean's shit, Suso's shit and all that. It's just that we screw up all too regularly against certain types of team, like today. And our away record is still too poor.
However, should we win away at Southampton, I think we'll stay up. It would mean we're not the same Villa I think we are.
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It was a sickening way to lose yesterday, but for me there were loads of positives.
Before the Norwich Away game in October, I nerdily predicted all of our results and got us finishing on 40 points.
After yesterday's game we're one point behind what I thought we'd be on now.
In the grand scheme, if this team can put 2 or 3 wins together in a row, we stay up. It's going to be a rollercoaster but they can definitely achieve survival.
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Three wins in a row? Where on earth do you think those are going to come from?
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Three wins in a row? Where on earth do you think those are going to come from?
That's the spirit.
I had us down for three more wins from here and still staying up, admittedly there's a few draws in there [which we seem incapable of getting currently].
All I'm saying is that if we can somehow find back-to-back wins, the odds are we stay up.
Why can't we win away at Newcastle or Southampton or Everton and follow it up with a home win. We'll probably get back-to-back home games at some point as well with the Sheffield United game being rearranged.
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Being totally honest, I can't see us getting more than 6 points for the rest of the season
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We've had back-to-back wins once all season. We'll be doing well to win three more games, let alone three in a row.
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We've had back-to-back wins once all season. We'll be doing well to win three more games, let alone three in a row.
Which is what I had us getting and staying up. Happy days.
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Looking at other teams run ins down there and it’s much of a muchness.
I can still see Newcastle going on a bad run and getting dragged in as they really are gash. As for us, we’ll be fine if we stop self sabotaging our season.
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I think Southampton, Newcastle and possibly West Ham represent the best chances away from home.
Doesn't mean they're our only chance of course. I say possibly about West Ham, as we may well be safe and it could be a dead rubber by then.
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I think Southampton, Newcastle and possibly West Ham represent the best chances away from home.
Doesn't mean they're our only chance of course. I say possibly about West Ham, as we may well be safe and it could be a dead rubber by then.
Be great if a 0-0 draw was all that was needed for both teams. We spend 90 minutes tapping the ball around, then score in the 94th minute to send them down.
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We've had back-to-back wins once all season. We'll be doing well to win three more games, let alone three in a row.
Having heard, and since repeated, that we've not won 3 on the bounce in the PL since 2010, I thought I'd better check this. It was in fact 2009, Christmas, propelled us to fourth.
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Think three wins in a row will be beyond us but we've seen many times from us and other teams how back to back wins can really push you away from the bottom 3.
We need to do it in the run in, probably in April looking at the potential for a few home games to be bunched together around that time.
If we don't do it then feels a given either West Ham or Watford and one of the teams just above us will do it and stay up instead of us.
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Equal West Ham results and we stay up, easy eh!!!!!!!
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Equal West Ham results and we stay up, easy eh!!!!!!!
And Watford.
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I think Southampton, Newcastle and possibly West Ham represent the best chances away from home.
Doesn't mean they're our only chance of course. I say possibly about West Ham, as we may well be safe and it could be a dead rubber by then.
Be great if a 0-0 draw was all that was needed for both teams. We spend 90 minutes tapping the ball around, then score in the 94th minute to send them down.
Genuine lol at that! The levels of shithousery would be biblical. Would be a dicey walk back mind.
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In terms of form, over the last 6 games we're 13th, over the last 8 games we're 13th, over the last 10 games we're 15th.
We're in a relegation battle, absolutely, but let's not pretend the teams around us are firing on all cylinders. Both Southampton and Watford had nice little runs, but Watford are still down there, and the teams within a result or two above us, like Palace, Brighton and Newcastle are in dire form.
I'd love us to stay up based on our own upturn in form and results, ending up with a few unexpected wins and 40+ points, but right now I wouldn't rule out us staying up simply because there are three teams worse than us while we continue to average just over a point a game.
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We're just under a point a game.
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We've had back-to-back wins once all season. We'll be doing well to win three more games, let alone three in a row.
Having heard, and since repeated, that we've not won 3 on the bounce in the PL since 2010, I thought I'd better check this. It was in fact 2009, Christmas, propelled us to fourth.
April 2010, Portsmouth, Hull and sha.
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We're just under a point a game.
Yes, of course, over the whole season that's true - I meant in the form table over the last 6/8/10 games, where the teams around us are doing worse than us. I was merely pointing out, that our current form, disappointing as it is, could be enough to keep us up - but I don't want that to be something we rely on.
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We have been extremely fortunate with other results around us, and this time of year we can expect a few results that no one saw coming...I only hope that it's us getting them, for the right reasons.
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We’re in massive trouble. Today was an utter embarrassment. There’s just no planning or anything.
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I am more annoyed than I was in 2016.
The ingredients were there this time but the Board are too loyal to the manager.
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Numb more than worried. I think I passed the worried stage weeks/months ago.
Smith doesn't look that bothered. He's a lucky man. I do hope he manages to keep us up, but even if he does, the owners won't be keeping him on, I don't reckon.
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To me we've learnt nothing from the 2015 summer window.
People always seem to get excited when we spunk 100m on unknown players from abroad or the lower leagues but you need experience to balance things out.
Likes of Luiz and AEG have talent but they simply can't perform to a consistant level in this league week in week out.
Why we overlooked steady eddie types like Gary Cahill in the summer is beyond me. So what if they have no resale value due to age.
Any club needs a short term and long term strategy. We seem permanetly locked on the long term project which never arrives under many different personnel at the top making decisions.
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Is there anyone left who is not even slightly concerned?
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I am more annoyed than I was in 2016.
The ingredients were there this time but the Board are too loyal to the manager.
Spot on. They’ll rue their misplaced loyalty. How they ever got to be billionaires I’ll never know.
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'Fun' fact. Our last 73 Premier League games has seen us concede 146 goals and score 73.
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I am more annoyed than I was in 2016.
The ingredients were there this time but the Board are too loyal to the manager.
Spot on. They’ll rue their misplaced loyalty. How they ever got to be billionaires I’ll never know.
Don't really follow American sports but apparently Wes has no issue firing managers from there.
Ultimately we had a choice in December and chose to back him so really can't see him getting sacked anytime soon.
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(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/85090967_3463185213709012_8021034292102561792_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ohc=31w0hkuzQGoAX9lLtfe&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=d3058e45a33ac6589ebadf8a8dd42d6a&oe=5EBDB184)
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I am more annoyed than I was in 2016.
The ingredients were there this time but the Board are too loyal to the manager.
Spot on. They’ll rue their misplaced loyalty. How they ever got to be billionaires I’ll never know.
The state of this.
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The title of this thread should be changed to ‘Anyone Starting to Become Resigned to the Inevitable?’
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I can’t see how we are going to get enough points. Each defeat is another blow to confidence. The only bit of hope is that other teams look as bad as us, West Ham, Watford.
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I am more annoyed than I was in 2016.
The ingredients were there this time but the Board are too loyal to the manager.
Spot on. They’ll rue their misplaced loyalty. How they ever got to be billionaires I’ll never know.
The state of this.
State of what? This thread? Or the messages? I’m pissed off & very worried & can’t disagree with what’s been said. Dean looks lost, I have no idea where the next win is. I hope Sunday & we get enough points, or other teams don’t to stay up but.....
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I am more annoyed than I was in 2016.
The ingredients were there this time but the Board are too loyal to the manager.
Spot on. They’ll rue their misplaced loyalty. How they ever got to be billionaires I’ll never know.
The state of this.
You think we're going to stay up? You think it's OK that we are sleepwalking to losing Jack Grealish?
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I cannot see us matching either West Ham or Watford as they seem to have a bit more streetfighting ability and physicality than we do, certainly Watford anyway. I can't see where the next win is coming from. I hold Smith and Pitarch for leaving us with a completely inept midfield, from a defensive point of view. We are sleepwalking to relegation.
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I cannot see us matching either West Ham or Watford as they seem to have a bit more streetfighting ability and physicality than we do, certainly Watford anyway. I can't see where the next win is coming from. I hold Smith and Pitarch for leaving us with a completely inept midfield, from a defensive point of view. We are sleepwalking to relegation.
Agree but not sleepwalking, we are wide awake and going down
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Watford and West Ham play each other on the weekend we're playing Everton away.
Ultimately the teams below will start picking up a win or two.
After the late Watford win it was a great chance to put a 4-5 buffer between us and 18th but we've failed and it will likely cost us in the long run.
Watford showed at xmas they're capable of winning 3 games out of 4 so we're finished if they do that again.
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More the utter bollocks conclusion that because the manager hasn't been sacked at the exact point somebody terminally miserable has concluded, that a pair of successful and ridiculously rich blokes can't have the brains to have earned their obscene fortunes.
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I cannot see us matching either West Ham or Watford as they seem to have a bit more streetfighting ability and physicality than we do, certainly Watford anyway. I can't see where the next win is coming from. I hold Smith and Pitarch for leaving us with a completely inept midfield, from a defensive point of view. We are sleepwalking to relegation.
Agree but not sleepwalking, we are wide awake and going down
Even worse then my friend.
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More the utter bollocks conclusion that because the manager hasn't been sacked at the exact point somebody terminally miserable has concluded, that a pair of successful and ridiculously rich blokes can't have the brains to have earned their obscene fortunes.
Wow!! Not many, if any bar one or two are saying anything about the owners. CEO, coming in for some stick for sticking with Dean, if it’s his call. Are you happy? Honestly straightforward question? Not at the end of the season if we stop up, with hindsight? Right now, if it was your call what you do, hope and pray??
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I know not many are saying that, that's why I quoted the person who said it.
Of course I'm not happy. We lost.
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I know Suso is an easy target but ultimately the transfer strategy would've come from the owners and DOF and head coach has to implement this and pick the players.
When they were giving over 100m as the budget I'm sure they'd have made it known whether they've have wanted us to spend majority of that on players in 28-31 age bracket or primarly go for players under 25.
We went for the second option and it's not been a great success.
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They’ll get their £120 million back on Grealish, McGinn and Mings. We’ll be left with the rest and a massive rebuild job. Depressing isn’t it.
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I actually think we'll be o.k back down in the championship compared to the state we were in last time.
Last time only took three seasons despite a very dodgy inital owner and underwhelming managerial appointments.
We have core of players who are very hit and miss in this league but many will be fine in championship. As we've seen all you do is find a striker or two who can score and you'll be up there as we were with Grabban and Tammy. Just make sure the club you're loaning from isn't going to get a transfer ban the next summer!
We'd be very close if not top 2 if we signed Dwight Gayle for example.
Big spanner would be a brutal FFP points deduction so let's hope Purslow is being more truthful than Wyness was when he said things would be fine if we didn't beat Fulham.
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No points from the last two games is a very poor return. Really thinking we'll drop now having been quite optimistic previously. Still got a lot of chances to save ourselves, let's bloody take them.
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We simply cannot play as bad this season as we did today...can we?
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We simply cannot play as bad this season as we did today...can we?
The inconsistency in our performances is the most frustrating thing, even if it is somewhat understandable. A similar performance to just last week would have seen us get a result today, I reckon.
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More the utter bollocks conclusion that because the manager hasn't been sacked at the exact point somebody terminally miserable has concluded, that a pair of successful and ridiculously rich blokes can't have the brains to have earned their obscene fortunes.
Sawiris inherited his.
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One horror is we get replaced by our charming neighbours from Sandwell. Another is we renew acquaintances with the homeless mob. Bleurgh.
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Since winning 1-0 away to Spurs 11th April 2015 our away form in the top flight is
PL35 W3 D5 L27 F32 A68
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Since winning 1-0 away to Spurs 11th April 2016 our away form in the top flight is
PL35 W3 D5 L27 F32 A68
It was actually 2015.
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Since winning 1-0 away to Spurs 11th April 2016 our away form in the top flight is
PL35 W3 D5 L27 F32 A68
Jesus Christ.
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Ooops, typo fixed.
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Honestly trying to look at where points could come from
Sheff United H - win
Palace H - win
Arsenal H - win (this in my head feels like the game in the 90’s when we beat Liverpool 2-0 with yorke goals end of season)
Chelsea H - lose (could draw)
United H - lose (could draw)
Newcastle A - draw
Dogheads H - draw
Liverpool away - lose
Leicester away - lose
Everton away - draw
West Ham A - draw
That’s 13 points
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Yeah we'd stay up with that. More optimistic than me.
Have a good feeling for Newcastle and also Crystal Palace but many others have feel of Spurs games. Games we could draw but conspire to lose.
Man. United and Arsenal are starting to get some consistancy now and going for top 4/5 after being s*** for most of this season.
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Yeah we'd stay up with that. More optimistic than me.
Have a good feeling for Newcastle and also Crystal Palace but many others have feel of Spurs games. Games we could draw but conspire to lose.
Man. United and Arsenal are starting to get some consistancy now and going for top 4/5 after being s*** for most of this season.
Sheff U could easily be a defeat that’s us on 10 then (that won’t be enough) but same time a rocking VP could see us beat Wolves so that’s 12 (37 would keep us up imo)
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I’m probably less optimistic about the early games and more about the later games as I think SJM coming back and getting up to speed could be massive.
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Just imagine, if from strong positions in each of these three games, we had got draws against Arsenal, Liverpool and Spurs at home. We'd be on 28 points and fairly relaxed about things after this round of games.
We have thrown away so many points.
That said, we are so fortunate that the teams around us have started to struggle too.
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I cannot see us matching either West Ham or Watford as they seem to have a bit more streetfighting ability and physicality than we do, certainly Watford anyway. I can't see where the next win is coming from. I hold Smith and Pitarch for leaving us with a completely inept midfield, from a defensive point of view. We are sleepwalking to relegation.
Agree with you in terms of not knowing where next wins coming from. I’m usually an optimist but the hammer blow of losing to spurs the way we did and the no show yesterday, has brought forward a massive villa cloud that’s hard to shift.
Not sure why anyone would think though, Watford or West Ham have anymore than us. Last 7 games we have 7 points (2 wins, 1 drawn, 4 losses), Watford have 8 points (2 wins, 2 draws, 3 losses), West Ham have 5 points (1 win, 2 draws, 4 defeats) and West Ham’s win came in Moyes first game in charge 7 games ago. There is nothing in recent form to suggest they are playing any better than us. I wonder if their fans are on their forums saying they have more street fighting qualities or whatever that villa, same goes for Bournemouth.
We are in the shite I’m not trying to deny that, IM not one to simply blame the manager, though ability to motivate the team if nothing else lies at his door. I think the players are massively low on confidence and in some cases low on ability. Stating the obvious but we need to dig out a win from somewhere in any fashion
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Yeah we'd stay up with that. More optimistic than me.
Have a good feeling for Newcastle and also Crystal Palace but many others have feel of Spurs games. Games we could draw but conspire to lose.
Man. United and Arsenal are starting to get some consistancy now and going for top 4/5 after being s*** for most of this season.
Sheff U could easily be a defeat that’s us on 10 then (that won’t be enough) but same time a rocking VP could see us beat Wolves so that’s 12 (37 would keep us up imo)
Difficult to say with Sheffield United. They've been brilliant but feels inevitable they'll ease off once they hit 40 points. They weren't that great v Brighton yesterday.
Still been a poor match up for us in last two years (that game we won with that late Snoddy goal we were completely battered in) and we are nowhere near playing 3-5-2 aswell as they and Wolves do so don't think it's a simple case of just matching them with formations and we'd win.
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Start getting worried people west ham are bloody beating liverpool ffs. This could turn their season around
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Start getting worried people west ham are bloody beating liverpool ffs. This could turn their season around
Or not.
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Start getting worried people west ham are bloody beating liverpool ffs. This could turn their season around
Or not.
Thank god.even a point for them would be a disaster for us
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Start getting worried people west ham are bloody beating liverpool ffs. This could turn their season around
Or not.
Thank god.even a point for them would be a disaster for us
It's not finished yet! Plus, West Ham are fighting like fuck.
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Anything could happen for the rest of the season.
Results start happening that's nobody expects.
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Absolutely, crazy results usually start with about 6/8 games to go. I recall Leicester being dead and buried, absolute certainties for relegation and behind at the Albion I think. Turned the game around and went on a mad run to stay up. The following season we all know the rest. We'll need at least a couple of those crazy results to go our way or we'll be toast.
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Just imagine, if from strong positions in each of these three games, we had got draws against Arsenal, Liverpool and Spurs at home. We'd be on 28 points and fairly relaxed about things after this round of games.
We have thrown away so many points.
That said, we are so fortunate that the teams around us have started to struggle too.
I take the positives that we are competitive in games more often than not. Need to close out a few results.
McGinn returning will be a massive boost as well.
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I think one of the main problems has been consistency. We went from the euphoria of a last minute win in a cup semi final to playing garbage at Bournemouth and playing very well against Spuds to playing like a team of strangers against Southampton and it's happened a few times this season. That is what's going to cost us in the end if we don't buck our idea's up.
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Worried? Me? Nah.
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As bad as the result at soton was, other results have gone our way again. We can't keep relying on other teams to f-ck up. I still think 37 points (4 wins may be enough to keep us up)
It's now an 11 game season and we have a point advantage on the bottom 3. I certainly will be supporting the team/lads to get these 4 wins (until it's mathematically impossible) as the alternative is unattractive to me.UTV!
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You’d be naive not to be worried now. I wasn’t that worried until a few weeks back- time’s running out and points very hard to acquire. The manner of the Southampton loss was very worrying. You can’t play like that and expect to stay up. I think because we’re one of the bigger names, other clubs might be trying extra hard to send us down too.
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"It's not finished yet! Plus, West Ham are fighting like fuck".
I think that this is significant - WHU went into a game that realistically, they had very little chance of getting anything from, but had a real go anyway. Can you see Ville doing the same? This could be the difference in the end - attitude and passion.
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I used to work for a firm where the owner said he hired people on 1) attitude, 2) ability and 3) experience. In that order. I thought he was a bit of a twat because of that, initially. But they are quite successful, so I changed my thinking after a bit. Back to Southampton though and where were all 3 of those attributes?
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"It's not finished yet! Plus, West Ham are fighting like fuck".
I think that this is significant - WHU went into a game that realistically, they had very little chance of getting anything from, but had a real go anyway. Can you see Ville doing the same? This could be the difference in the end - attitude and passion.
I see your point but yes, against Tottenham. We also pushed Liverpool to having to score a last minute goal to beat us so arguably were closer to a result against them than West Ham were.
While we really aren't very good, let's not make the teams below us out to be any better. If they were they wouldn't be below us.
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"It's not finished yet! Plus, West Ham are fighting like fuck".
I think that this is significant - WHU went into a game that realistically, they had very little chance of getting anything from, but had a real go anyway. Can you see Ville doing the same? This could be the difference in the end - attitude and passion.
That’s only really significant if you take literally just the last game as a barometer of how each team is going to play for the rest of the season, which obviously won’t be the case.
Literally the game previously for both teams, we competed and played well against a better team than us (and should have taken something) while West Ham fought and battled their way to given up a two goal lead against fellow relegation strugglers.
And we actually came closer to beating Liverpool than they did.
Edit - Hadn’t noticed Sheffield making pretty much the same point - sorry! Also, forgot West Ham played Man City in between the games I mentioned. They were rubbish though so the point still stands.
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Spam are a shit team for sure. My specific concerns are that they still look more likely to nick a result against big teams than us and that if it comes down to a last day head to head they’ve got more bottle across the team. I hope I’m wrong obviously.
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It’s the if Spam played like they did last night or Villa like they did against Spurs, and they both lost.
It’s Russian roulette relegation, they both keep pulling the trigger and nothing happens.
There is a bullet in the chamber and one of them has their name on it.
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Dont get why we raised our game against spurs who are better than us but absolutely perform pathetically against Southampton. Had we performaed like we did against sours we probably could have got something.
West ham showed fight and were unlucky i want to see the samw from our players.
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Dont get why we raised our game against spurs who are better than us but absolutely perform pathetically against Southampton. Had we performaed like we did against sours we probably could have got something.
West ham showed fight and were unlucky i want to see the samw from our players.
That’s the point though, we have seen it from our players. The same as I’m sure I could find plenty of games where West Ham have been woeful this season.
The reason we are where we are (and the same for teams around us) is that though we do have decent players we are no where near consistent enough with our performances. The best teams find that mentality/physicality etc. to produce great performances/results week after week, not just every few games.
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Dont get why we raised our game against spurs who are better than us but absolutely perform pathetically against Southampton. Had we performaed like we did against sours we probably could have got something.
West ham showed fight and were unlucky i want to see the samw from our players.
Poor management and motivation - we've seen it against a few of them other struggling teams.
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I used to work for a firm where the owner said he hired people on 1) attitude, 2) ability and 3) experience. In that order. I thought he was a bit of a twat because of that, initially. But they are quite successful, so I changed my thinking after a bit. Back to Southampton though and where were all 3 of those attributes?
It's a good way of doing things. Seems to be how Sheffield United are doing well, similar can be said if other clubs that are deemed to be punching.
We have had, over the years, got number 1 wrong haven't we? I don't think that's an issue with the vast majority of our squad now.
I think we have an issue with 2. There's potential but it needs to be realised. Jack is now flourishing but it's taken him a while to really consistently perform at the level he is. Whilst we don't have others operating at the same level, there's potential.
3 is the interesting one. We really haven't got much of it at all.
All in all, in my mind Number 1 is essential in every player. Number 2 is essential for a few and desirable in the rest. Number 3 is essential in some in the squad but not required in most.
You could put a scale together about where you think each of our players are and it would give a pretty good indication of why we are where we are.
I think that then comes back to recruitment.
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Lets just imagine we survive by the skin of our teeth this season - what the hell are we going to do differently which leads to us actually competing next season?
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Would rather have that scenario to worry about than being back in Division 2.
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Spam are a shit team for sure. My specific concerns are that they still look more likely to nick a result against big teams than us and that if it comes down to a last day head to head they’ve got more bottle across the team. I hope I’m wrong obviously.
I’d say the opposite is true.
We have run Liverpool, Tottenham and Arsenal very close this season and arguably should have picked up points from all three of those games. We also did manage to pick up points at Old Trafford. It is against the lesser teams where we have performed poorly.
I’d also be interested to hear who and why you think West Ham have more bottle and not just because of the last two games played by both teams.
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West Ham are undeniably shit, seeing as they're in the bottom three and we're not, but they have beaten Man U and Chelsea this year, whilst we remain the ONLY team in the division not to have beaten one of the "big" teams. In fact I think I'm right in saying that all of the teams we've beat in the league have been in the bottom half when we beat them. Not a great omen for the rest of the season, since all but two of our remaining games are against top half teams.
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West Ham are undeniably shit, seeing as they're in the bottom three and we're not, but they have beaten Man U and Chelsea this year, whilst we remain the ONLY team in the division not to have beaten one of the "big" teams. In fact I think I'm right in saying that all of the teams we've beat in the league have been in the bottom half when we beat them. Not a great omen for the rest of the season, since all but two of our remaining games are against top half teams.
What I think we've done more often than not is beat ourselves. And we're massive. So we have beaten a big team!
More seriously, I think we're far more prone to rank stupidity than anybody else and that's our biggest downfall.
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I'm worried because although we're not in the relegation zone, last night's game indicated how precarious that 1 point gap is. It's only going to take one rogue result to turn things around. That also goes for us obviously but getting those surprise results is something we've not done this season, apart from a solitary point at Old Trafford. Yes we've had good performances against the better teams but we've got no points from them. The stuff about only needing to beat the teams around you is now pretty irrelevant - we need to get points wherever we can and from whoever we can.
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Spam are a shit team for sure. My specific concerns are that they still look more likely to nick a result against big teams than us and that if it comes down to a last day head to head they’ve got more bottle across the team. I hope I’m wrong obviously.
I’d say the opposite is true.
We have run Liverpool, Tottenham and Arsenal very close this season and arguably should have picked up points from all three of those games. We also did manage to pick up points at Old Trafford. It is against the lesser teams where we have performed poorly.
I’d also be interested to hear who and why you think West Ham have more bottle and not just because of the last two games played by both teams.
You've made my point for me there. Operative words are 'run close' and 'should have picked up points'. As Risso say, spam have actually picked up points in games against top half teams where they've managed to get ahead.
The second point is subjective I guess. We have showed bottle on occasion (Watford, Burnley, Leicester in the cup) and some players have it in buckets but for me too many players are capable of disappearing in the big 6 pointers against shit teams that fancy it more (Bournemouth, Southampton).
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West Ham are undeniably shit, seeing as they're in the bottom three and we're not, but they have beaten Man U and Chelsea this year, whilst we remain the ONLY team in the division not to have beaten one of the "big" teams. In fact I think I'm right in saying that all of the teams we've beat in the league have been in the bottom half when we beat them. Not a great omen for the rest of the season, since all but two of our remaining games are against top half teams.
It's true.
Moyes has never won at Liverpool, ManU, Arsenal or Chelsea, in all his time as a manager. So it's not just us that has bad records to break.
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Spam are a shit team for sure. My specific concerns are that they still look more likely to nick a result against big teams than us and that if it comes down to a last day head to head they’ve got more bottle across the team. I hope I’m wrong obviously.
I’d say the opposite is true.
We have run Liverpool, Tottenham and Arsenal very close this season and arguably should have picked up points from all three of those games. We also did manage to pick up points at Old Trafford. It is against the lesser teams where we have performed poorly.
I’d also be interested to hear who and why you think West Ham have more bottle and not just because of the last two games played by both teams.
You've made my point for me there. Operative words are 'run close' and 'should have picked up points'. As Risso say, spam have actually picked up points in games against top half teams where they've managed to get ahead.
The second point is subjective I guess. We have showed bottle on occasion (Watford, Burnley, Leicester in the cup) and some players have it in buckets but for me too many players are capable of disappearing in the big 6 pointers against shit teams that fancy it more (Bournemouth, Southampton).
The thing is, due to the inconsistency of about 17 teams in the league, you could go round and round in circles picking ‘example games’ to prove a point. West Ham have nicked a couple against the top teams but by virtue of still being below us have also been pretty abject against some bottom half ones.
You could also argue that our performances against some of the ‘better’ teams have merited more points whereas the close fought 1-0 victories that a few teams have nicked (eg. West Ham and Newcastle vs Chelsea), while showing those battling qualities, are less likely to be repeated/result in picking up points against these teams long term.
Also, just to reiterate my point about inconsistency, you could point to the victories over Burnley, Watford and possibly even Norwich at home as us showing fight/bottle/graft in big six pointer games.
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West Ham are undeniably shit, seeing as they're in the bottom three and we're not, but they have beaten Man U and Chelsea this year, whilst we remain the ONLY team in the division not to have beaten one of the "big" teams. In fact I think I'm right in saying that all of the teams we've beat in the league have been in the bottom half when we beat them. Not a great omen for the rest of the season, since all but two of our remaining games are against top half teams.
It's true.
Moyes has never won at Liverpool, ManU, Arsenal or Chelsea, in all his time as a manager. So it's not just us that has bad records to break.
Mcleish of all people won at chelaea and lambert at arsenal. God feels so long ago...
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Spam are a shit team for sure. My specific concerns are that they still look more likely to nick a result against big teams than us and that if it comes down to a last day head to head they’ve got more bottle across the team. I hope I’m wrong obviously.
I’d say the opposite is true.
We have run Liverpool, Tottenham and Arsenal very close this season and arguably should have picked up points from all three of those games. We also did manage to pick up points at Old Trafford. It is against the lesser teams where we have performed poorly.
I’d also be interested to hear who and why you think West Ham have more bottle and not just because of the last two games played by both teams.
Is it Villa running them close, or them 'lowering' themselves as they know that a lesser performance would be adequate. It's certainly possible the close call was down to Villa being good, but not necessarily...
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I'm not worried. I think our future is secure. I know it's looking dicey for going back down again but if that happens I think we're far better prepared for it than last time.
I'd just rather not have to watch Grealish play for anyone else in English football.
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If you'd told me just over a week ago that we could lose to Southampton and Spurs, and STILL not be in the bottom 3, I'd have said you were off your rocker.
I guess the thing we keep missing - as we look closely at the issues with our own team - is that although we've been putting in some rubbish performances (alongside a few good ones), the teams around us are also churning out rubbish on a weekly basis.
To stay up, we don't need to be great, we don't even need to be 'good' - we've only got to be slightly less rubbish than three of the five teams around us over the next 11 games. I still think we can do that!
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If you'd told me just over a week ago that we could lose to Southampton and Spurs, and STILL not be in the bottom 3, I'd have said you were off your rocker.
I guess the thing we keep missing - as we look closely at the issues with our own team - is that although we've been putting in some rubbish performances (alongside a few good ones), the teams around us are also churning out rubbish on a weekly basis.
To stay up, we don't need to be great, we don't even need to be 'good' - we've only got to be slightly less rubbish than three of the five teams around us over the next 11 games. I still think we can do that!
Quite.
I'd understand some of this if we were in Norwich's, but we're not.
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Lets just imagine we survive by the skin of our teeth this season - what the hell are we going to do differently which leads to us actually competing next season?
Our team will be a lot better for having one season at this level behind them. A bit like Amavi, Gana, and Veretout, instead of watching say Luis, Nakamba and Freddy kick on at a different club, it would be nice to see them kick on with us.
Also, three teams promoted from the Championship would, you would think, be at the kind of disadvantage we are at now.
We simply have to stay up.
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We'd probably need to sign two or three £20-40m players and keep what we have.
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Lets just imagine we survive by the skin of our teeth this season - what the hell are we going to do differently which leads to us actually competing next season?
nothing - we don't really do learning lessons at Aston Villa :D
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We'd probably need to sign two or three £20-40m players and keep what we have.
this - maybe replace Smith with someone who has different ways to win and not lose matches.
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What would be annoying if we do get relegated is that 3 more teams from the Championship will be promoted that will more than likely struggle next season. I can’t see Baggies, Leeds plus another pulling up any trees in the PL next season and should all be in a relegation battle. With a whole PL season and experience under our belt, new players in the summer and those new teams, it should be a lot easier for us to avoid the relegation battle if we can swerve it this season.
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We'd probably need to sign two or three £20-40m players and keep what we have.
I think a few need to be moved on. Jota for starters.
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Spam are a shit team for sure. My specific concerns are that they still look more likely to nick a result against big teams than us and that if it comes down to a last day head to head they’ve got more bottle across the team. I hope I’m wrong obviously.
I’d say the opposite is true.
We have run Liverpool, Tottenham and Arsenal very close this season and arguably should have picked up points from all three of those games. We also did manage to pick up points at Old Trafford. It is against the lesser teams where we have performed poorly.
I’d also be interested to hear who and why you think West Ham have more bottle and not just because of the last two games played by both teams.
Is it Villa running them close, or them 'lowering' themselves as they know that a lesser performance would be adequate. It's certainly possible the close call was down to Villa being good, but not necessarily...
We have a perfectly adequate system of deciding which team won a game of football, and by what margin, without self-flagellating nonsense like this.
Perhaps we phoned it in against Man City at home because we knew they were a shower of cheating, soon-to-be-relegated arriviste no-marks with an empire built on sand (as well as oil and blood)? Or were they just significantly better than us, as reflected in the result, on the day?
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We'd probably need to sign two or three £20-40m players and keep what we have.
I think a few need to be moved on. Jota for starters.
Another summer of turnover no matter what happens. We’ve bought short term for years so it’s going to take a few years before we get a settled squad whatever league we are in.
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I can envisage that we might produce a few good results, even against some of the top sides.
What I can't see is our putting a string of results together. The current squad can't play Dean Smith's preferred style at this level consistently.
It's going to be close, which may of us fully expected.
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I can envisage that we might produce a few good results, even against some of the top sides.
What I can't see is our putting a string of results together. The current squad can't play Dean Smith's preferred style at this level consistently.
It's going to be close, which may of us fully expected.
We don't really need that much of a run. We could stay up with runs of 1 win in 3 if we also draw a game in that run. Another 12 points and it's not certain we'd stay up but I'd be pretty confident looking at the runs in likes of Bournemouth have.
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I can envisage that we might produce a few good results, even against some of the top sides.
What I can't see is our putting a string of results together. The current squad can't play Dean Smith's preferred style at this level consistently.
It's going to be close, which may of us fully expected.
We don't really need that much of a run. We could stay up with runs of 1 win in 3 if we also draw a game in that run. Another 12 points and it's not certain we'd stay up but I'd be pretty confident looking at the runs in likes of Bournemouth have.
Exactly. The margins are so fine and it’s so hard to predict given the inconsistent nature of the teams around us (in regard to where they have picked points up).
Managing to give Bournemouth six points - nearly 25% of their total - this season has been really poor though. If we have just even drawn both the game I reckon the points swing would have had people feeling a lot more confident.
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These stats from a mate, so I can't vouch for them. But:
Newcastle 1 win in 10
Brighton 1 win in 12
Bournemouth 1 win in 3
Villa 1 win in 6
Watford 1 win in 10
West Ham 1 win in 10
Norwich 1 win in 14
So going on a run isn't exactly necessary. But, the two things that could do for us are the fact that teams down there still have to play each other (us included), and the fact that there are always random results at the end of the season when a lot of teams are on the beach.
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Watford have won 4 of the last 10 in the league so i'm going to guess most of them are wrong.
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We are 15th in the form table for the last 10 games played. West Ham at the bottom with 5 points.
EPL Form Guide (https://www.soccerstats.com/formtable.asp?league=england)
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We are 15th in the form table for the last 10 games played. West Ham at the bottom with 5 points.
EPL Form Guide (https://www.soccerstats.com/formtable.asp?league=england)
Look at their games to ours.
We have Leicester away and chelsea at home anyone see us getting anything from them two?
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We are 15th in the form table for the last 10 games played. West Ham at the bottom with 5 points.
EPL Form Guide (https://www.soccerstats.com/formtable.asp?league=england)
Look at their games to ours.
We have Leicester away and chelsea at home anyone see us getting anything from them two?
We drew away at Leicester last month, so quite possibly.
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Can see Chelsea being a similar game to Spurs. They have injuries and defensively are pretty poor.
Hopefully if we're 2-2 going into injury time we can actually see it out as every point is vital from now.
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All our rivals will have played two league games by the time we play again, (Monday week at Leicester). Can't see us getting lucky a second time there. We'll be under pressure to get points pretty much in the next games against Chelsea and Newcastle after that. Just hope this squad has the bottle to battle. I think we might be in the bottom three from next Saturday to at least until we play Palace at home at the end of April.
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Can see Chelsea being a similar game to Spurs. They have injuries and defensively are pretty poor.
Hopefully if we're 2-2 going into injury time we can actually see it out as every point is vital from now.
If it is 2-2 going into injury time, I'd rather we tried to win like we did against Watford and Brighton. Nearly always worth risking one point for two.
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Can see Chelsea being a similar game to Spurs. They have injuries and defensively are pretty poor.
Hopefully if we're 2-2 going into injury time we can actually see it out as every point is vital from now.
If it is 2-2 going into injury time, I'd rather we tried to win like we did against Watford and Brighton. Nearly always worth risking one point for two.
Hear hear.
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Can see Chelsea being a similar game to Spurs. They have injuries and defensively are pretty poor.
Hopefully if we're 2-2 going into injury time we can actually see it out as every point is vital from now.
If it is 2-2 going into injury time, I'd rather we tried to win like we did against Watford and Brighton. Nearly always worth risking one point for two.
Sometimes you have to be pragmatic especially with the counter attacking ability of the top teams (or a CB missing a routine clearance).
If we're level with Leicester and Chelsea near the end I'd take two draws happily. Will build the confidence up again nicely and then if we go to Newcastle and win we'll be on 31 points and suddenly getting to 37-38 points dosen't look that difficult.
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I can envisage that we might produce a few good results, even against some of the top sides.
What I can't see is our putting a string of results together. The current squad can't play Dean Smith's preferred style at this level consistently.
It's going to be close, which may of us fully expected.
We don't really need that much of a run. We could stay up with runs of 1 win in 3 if we also draw a game in that run. Another 12 points and it's not certain we'd stay up but I'd be pretty confident looking at the runs in likes of Bournemouth have.
I agree that we don't need a good run to avoid the drop, but we do need one to sail away from the relegation zone and be safe with a couple of games left. I think we will stay up, but it will be very close, and this is pretty much what I expected to happen.
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Can see Chelsea being a similar game to Spurs. They have injuries and defensively are pretty poor.
Hopefully if we're 2-2 going into injury time we can actually see it out as every point is vital from now.
If it is 2-2 going into injury time, I'd rather we tried to win like we did against Watford and Brighton. Nearly always worth risking one point for two.
Sometimes you have to be pragmatic especially with the counter attacking ability of the top teams (or a CB missing a routine clearance).
If we're level with Leicester and Chelsea near the end I'd take two draws happily. Will build the confidence up again nicely and then if we go to Newcastle and win we'll be on 31 points and suddenly getting to 37-38 points dosen't look that difficult.
You know we just beat Leicester... with a last second goal? And Chelsea lost to shitey Newcastle with an injury time winner, too.
Go for the win.
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I can envisage that we might produce a few good results, even against some of the top sides.
What I can't see is our putting a string of results together. The current squad can't play Dean Smith's preferred style at this level consistently.
It's going to be close, which may of us fully expected.
We don't really need that much of a run. We could stay up with runs of 1 win in 3 if we also draw a game in that run. Another 12 points and it's not certain we'd stay up but I'd be pretty confident looking at the runs in likes of Bournemouth have.
I agree that we don't need a good run to avoid the drop, but we do need one to sail away from the relegation zone and be safe with a couple of games left. I think we will stay up, but it will be very close, and this is pretty much what I expected to happen.
Can't see us doing well enough to being safe by final day. Just hope it's one of those situations where we go to West Ham three points clear and they need to beat us by 4-5 goals so as good as safe.
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If we top 34 points I'll be gob smacked.
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That was the match v Sheff U to keep matters in our hands.
Yes it was the first game back after an extended break buy what was most concerning the lack of urgency and realisation for 3pts .
Towards the end of match especially - throws in going back and no real pressing , granted tiredness but the match was disappointing
Not sure what Smith told the players in the review but several could have pushed a bit more to get a winning goal.
So yes I'm worried now . Extremely.
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Is Chelsea now a must win ?
I am beginning to think so.
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Not yet, accumulating points as we go and gaining confidence is the key. With the way the Bundesliga has started for home sides 20% win ratio those away games are suddenly potential wins. 'The Mighty Reds YNWA' aside Newcastle, Everton and West Ham might have nothing to play for as will Palace, we must get points from all of those 4 and then pick up another 2 home wins to give ourselves a chance.
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Well we are in the relegation zone, with same games played and a worse goal difference, so yes worried, but we are in with a chance and a lot of games to play, but we must find a way to start winning games
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Obvious point, but this Saturday could be the biggest day of our season so far. All of our relegation rivals playing at home straight after each other.
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Is Chelsea now a must win ?
I am beginning to think so.
Newcastle is the must win for me.
We do terribly up there year in year out for some reason (compared to the other two NE clubs) but they won't have the crowd factor which seems to unnerve us and I can't believe a Newcastle team managed by Steve Bruce will come racing out of the blocks. And we won comfortably at VP.
We certainly need a win in next three otherwise task becomes too much. Wins v Newcastle, Palace and Arsenal and a draw or two and we could well go into final day out of bottom 3.
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Watched yesterday - we played some nice neat football, but in truth SU were more incisive and really, all our problems showed up again - comical defending (Hause and Nyland in particular), lack of creativity in midfield, woeful finishing (Davis really must learn to put chances away).
I think we are down - cannot see (even with the most optimistic glasses on) where 14 points is coming from in 9 games so ...... big summer coming up (how many times have we said that) - parachute payment means we MUST return fast - if we do, and do so well, then future can still be bright but if the panic sets in and we take too short term a view again, we are destined to remain in the funk.
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Watched yesterday - we played some nice neat football, but in truth SU were more incisive and really, all our problems showed up again - comical defending (Hause and Nyland in particular), lack of creativity in midfield, woeful finishing (Davis really must learn to put chances away).
I think we are down - cannot see (even with the most optimistic glasses on) where 14 points is coming from in 9 games so ...... big summer coming up (how many times have we said that) - parachute payment means we MUST return fast - if we do, and do so well, then future can still be bright but if the panic sets in and we take too short term a view again, we are destined to remain in the funk.
They weren't more incisive. They had one shot on target all match.
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Watched yesterday - we played some nice neat football, but in truth SU were more incisive and really, all our problems showed up again - comical defending (Hause and Nyland in particular), lack of creativity in midfield, woeful finishing (Davis really must learn to put chances away).
I think we are down - cannot see (even with the most optimistic glasses on) where 14 points is coming from in 9 games so ...... big summer coming up (how many times have we said that) - parachute payment means we MUST return fast - if we do, and do so well, then future can still be bright but if the panic sets in and we take too short term a view again, we are destined to remain in the funk.
They weren't more incisive. They had one shot on target all match.
We had far more possession than Sheffield United when SKY showed the stats (although that was during the game not at the final whistle). I have been quite worried from day one of the season. My target for us in our remaining games after restart was four wins from our ten games.
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Odds are against us, but if we can continue to have better defensive shape we might keep more clean sheets and that will give us a chance.
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I do think we really have our work cut out to stay up but let’s see how the next couple of matches go for all teams and see where we are. A point last night was more than I thought we’d get so it’s something to build on.
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I've adopted something like a one-day cricket attitude. It'd be nice to have a comfortably big lead posted with nine overs left, but it ain't happened. However, if we can keep pace with the required run rate, and leave ourselves a chance in that final over against the spammers, I won't be betting against us.
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Yesterday, we didn't look like we had anyone who could burst into the box quite late and take a chance. We did it a couple of times but need that consistency and more goals from the midfield players. Harsh, but Davis could have a hatrick. Great save from Henderson to deny him one, he also put one over the bar, although I wondered if the referee might have cancelled it out as he was on the defenders shoulders. The other effort was a tame header straight at the keeper. We lacked ruthlessness and I was a bit disappointed that Dean didn't really push for the win late on. We seemed to settle for the point. I don't see enough in us to get out of this but, here's hoping.
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Well the main glimmer of hope is that we know SJM, Conor and Jack can drive into the box. Hopefully the game time will aid their sharpness in that respect.
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In all honesty, I can't see us staying up. There just doesn't seem to be anything extra to offer, and I can't see where a win is likely to come from.
Yesterday was only a point due to an error with the officials - yes we got a point, however in reality we lost the game as they got the ball over the line once more than we did. We got lucky, that's all.
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Well let’s not go too far. We did get lucky with the decision, but we were the better side and who knows whether going behind would have intensified our reaction. I also think they got very lucky not to give away a pen.
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Yesterday, we didn't look like we had anyone who could burst into the box quite late and take a chance. We did it a couple of times but need that consistency and more goals from the midfield players. Harsh, but Davis could have a hatrick. Great save from Henderson to deny him one, he also put one over the bar, although I wondered if the referee might have cancelled it out as he was on the defenders shoulders. The other effort was a tame header straight at the keeper. We lacked ruthlessness and I was a bit disappointed that Dean didn't really push for the win late on. We seemed to settle for the point. I don't see enough in us to get out of this but, here's hoping.
McGinn was doing that no problem right at the start of the season. Last night showed he needs a good month to get up to speed with fitness so hopefully he can peak for last 5 games and chip in with a goal or two.
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Now FFP is suspended no. We go down, we spend the living fuck out of the other 23 no marks we're slumming it with.
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Now FFP is suspended no. We go down, we spend the living fuck out of the other 23 no marks we're slumming it with.
Is that confirmed, no FFP if we go down? I guess we lose Grealish, Mings and SJM and have plenty to spend anyway.
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In all honesty, I can't see us staying up. There just doesn't seem to be anything extra to offer, and I can't see where a win is likely to come from.
Yesterday was only a point due to an error with the officials - yes we got a point, however in reality we lost the game as they got the ball over the line once more than we did. We got lucky, that's all.
However, in actual reality, we drew the game.
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I never get why an incident a few mins before half time means it would be the final score. We may have gone on to lose but the second half would have been different to how it was if the goal had been given.
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I never get why an incident a few mins before half time means it would be the final score. We may have gone on to lose but the second half would have been different to how it was if the goal had been given.
"If my auntie had bollocks she'd be my uncle!" Well, she probably wouldn't, because I know for a fact that Uncle Derek isn't into bollocks. Believe me, I'd know.
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I never get why an incident a few mins before half time means it would be the final score. We may have gone on to lose but the second half would have been different to how it was if the goal had been given.
We never ever came back from 3-0 last season to these either did we? Nah, must have dreamt it.
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Once a dfferent outcome happened the rest of the game would be different from that moment onwards.
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In all honesty, I can't see us staying up. There just doesn't seem to be anything extra to offer, and I can't see where a win is likely to come from.
Yesterday was only a point due to an error with the officials - yes we got a point, however in reality we lost the game as they got the ball over the line once more than we did. We got lucky, that's all.
What did we get at Palace? Or is it only us that gets lucky?
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Clearly nobody was paying attention during Back to the Future.
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Watched yesterday - we played some nice neat football, but in truth SU were more incisive and really, all our problems showed up again - comical defending (Hause and Nyland in particular), lack of creativity in midfield, woeful finishing (Davis really must learn to put chances away).
I think we are down - cannot see (even with the most optimistic glasses on) where 14 points is coming from in 9 games so ...... big summer coming up (how many times have we said that) - parachute payment means we MUST return fast - if we do, and do so well, then future can still be bright but if the panic sets in and we take too short term a view again, we are destined to remain in the funk.
14 ?!
How about 11-13 points
Ok I can say we probably need more than 36 points because of goal difference so it's more than 10 PTS needed but I don't think 40
37/38/39 pts could well do it.
It's a tall order to get 14 points. And 40pts shouldn't be needed generally.
That isn't actually the benchmark and very few seasons teams in prem need that many points.
However remains to be seen how conditions suit the other bottom teams but it's to say the tally to stay up is around 36/37/38pts
40pts is a myth that some still tout around and it's inaccurate.
We do need over a point a game. That's one thing that seems the case.
Take 3 wins and 4 draws . 13pts.
Just losing to Liverpool and Man Utd then.
Looking rather bleak if we don't get something out of Chelsea match but small hopes as more match fit than them , having played a game already , can get points .
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Well it’s very clearly not must win, or draw. We’re currently a couple of points from safety, so a run at any point could get us out of it. I accept we’re up against it and we’re going to need to start winning soon, but the Chelsea game isn’t an absolute line in the sand.
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Looking at our fixtures I think our last four aren't bad. Could be that Palace, Everton, Arsenal have nothing to play for and are going through the motions. Potential six pointer on the last day against West Ham.
Those could be the four wins we need although obviously prefer to get them sooner rather than later!
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In all honesty, I can't see us staying up. There just doesn't seem to be anything extra to offer, and I can't see where a win is likely to come from.
Yesterday was only a point due to an error with the officials - yes we got a point, however in reality we lost the game as they got the ball over the line once more than we did. We got lucky, that's all.
However, in actual reality, we drew the game.
What I mean is that the ball got into our net, and it never got into theirs. Yes the actual final result suggested otherwise, but that didn't actually reflect what happened. And the suggestion that we could have come back after going a goal down - does anyone honestly believe we would have scored twice had we gone behind? We didn't manage 1 goal, I just can't see where 2 would have come from..?!?
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How can anyone say with a straight face that in reality, we lost the game when we didn't? It comes to something when being miserable stretches to faking results.
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I never get why an incident a few mins before half time means it would be the final score. We may have gone on to lose but the second half would have been different to how it was if the goal had been given.
Indeed. Anything could have happened, however we can only judge what was presented to us, and that was what I commented on.
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I never get why an incident a few mins before half time means it would be the final score. We may have gone on to lose but the second half would have been different to how it was if the goal had been given.
Indeed. Anything could have happened, however we can only judge what was presented to us, and that was what I commented on.
There have always been mistakes from officials that have impacted on results. It’s only due to it being a new type of cock-up involving technology that this one has been seen as different when in reality it’s no different to things like incorrect offsides or missed penalty decisions.
Over the course of the game we were the better team so a win for them would not have been a fair reflection.
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In all honesty, I can't see us staying up. There just doesn't seem to be anything extra to offer, and I can't see where a win is likely to come from.
Yesterday was only a point due to an error with the officials - yes we got a point, however in reality we lost the game as they got the ball over the line once more than we did. We got lucky, that's all.
However, in actual reality, we drew the game.
What I mean is that the ball got into our net, and it never got into theirs. Yes the actual final result suggested otherwise, but that didn't actually reflect what happened. And the suggestion that we could have come back after going a goal down - does anyone honestly believe we would have scored twice had we gone behind? We didn't manage 1 goal, I just can't see where 2 would have come from..?!?
Firstly, if their goal had been give why would we have needed to score twice to draw?
Secondly, we had one and arguably 2 stonewall penalties not given. Isn't that technology also letting us down as VAR should have picked up on it?
If the phantom goal was in the 94th minute then you would have a point. But it wasn't and you don't.
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All i'm saying is that from that game, we got a point due to luck as opposed to anything else. Hypothetically anything could have happened, but what actually happened was that we were lucky to get a point. There are plenty of games to go, but I think there will be tougher ones to come so we need to improve quickly if we are going to do well in them. I'm not being deliberately negative, I'm just struggling to see what else we can offer up to get through these games with a positive outcome. Hopefully I'm wrong and we'll be flying up the table in no time, but every game should be viewed as 'must win' until the points are there.
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All i'm saying is that from that game, we got a point due to luck as opposed to anything else. Hypothetically anything could have happened, but what actually happened was that we were lucky to get a point. There are plenty of games to go, but I think there will be tougher ones to come so we need to improve quickly if we are going to do well in them. I'm not being deliberately negative, I'm just struggling to see what else we can offer up to get through these games with a positive outcome. Hopefully I'm wrong and we'll be flying up the table in no time, but every game should be viewed as 'must win' until the points are there.
I've never worked out why our supporters always seem to be so quick to pick up on our supposed luck, yet ignore what goes against us. We could have had two penalties, we had the most shots on target, we looked the better side, their man of the match was their keeper, yet we were the lucky ones.
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I've never worked out why our supporters always seem to be so quick to pick up on our supposed luck, yet ignore what goes against us. We could have had two penalties, we had the most shots on target, we looked the better side, their man of the match was their keeper, yet we were the lucky ones.
To be honest I don't tend to focus on luck normally - all i was suggesting was that the result was down to things outside of our control, as opposed to things that were. I think that the use of hypotheticals has derailed what i was originally trying to say. Yes we could have had two penalties, but we didn't get them. We also could have scored 10 goals, we didn't do that either. What actually happened was that we got a point due to an error on someone's else part rather than anything we did ourselves. That's all i was trying to say...
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I've never worked out why our supporters always seem to be so quick to pick up on our supposed luck, yet ignore what goes against us. We could have had two penalties, we had the most shots on target, we looked the better side, their man of the match was their keeper, yet we were the lucky ones.
To be honest I don't tend to focus on luck normally - all i was suggesting was that the result was down to things outside of our control, as opposed to things that were. I think that the use of hypotheticals has derailed what i was originally trying to say. Yes we could have had two penalties, but we didn't get them. We also could have scored 10 goals, we didn't do that either. What actually happened was that we got a point due to an error on someone's else part rather than anything we did ourselves. That's all i was trying to say...
When it goes against us it's hypothetical. When it goes in our favour it's luck.
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I never get why an incident a few mins before half time means it would be the final score. We may have gone on to lose but the second half would have been different to how it was if the goal had been given.
Indeed. Anything could have happened, however we can only judge what was presented to us, and that was what I commented on.
You didn't comment on what happened. You commented on some alternative reality where "we lost" because for some reason you've decided to award their goal and ignore any possibility that the game might not have finished one-nil had it counted.
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On this basis we got a point against Palace.
We scored that penalty late on at Arsenal.
We got a penalty at 1-0 opening day that saw us through.
Stirling was offside at Man City so our goal difference is better.
We took it to penalties against Man City in the cup.
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On this basis we got a point against Palace.
We scored that penalty late on at Arsenal.
We got a penalty at 1-0 opening day that saw us through.
Stirling was offside at Man City so our goal difference is better.
We took it to penalties against Man City in the cup.
Our goal difference is better also thanks to the 3-1 win at home to Brighton and the 3-1 away win at Burnley.
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I never get why an incident a few mins before half time means it would be the final score. We may have gone on to lose but the second half would have been different to how it was if the goal had been given.
Indeed. Anything could have happened, however we can only judge what was presented to us, and that was what I commented on.
You didn't comment on what happened. You commented on some alternative reality where "we lost" because for some reason you've decided to award their goal and ignore any possibility that the game might not have finished one-nil had it counted.
I haven't decided to award them anything - we got a draw and a point. Great. All i was saying was that the ball went in our goal more times that it did theirs. In any other scenario that would have meant we lost the game. We didn't, although that wasn't of our making - and that's my point. Regardless of how things could have gone, the simple facts are at the end of the game, the ball was in our net more times than theirs.
Hypothetical penalties don't mean anything as they are not a guaranteed goal and as these things didn't happen, it's impossible to say how it would have changed things.
Ha ha - does no-one get where i'm coming from?
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Whatever happened to the idea that the referee is always right, especially when he's wrong?
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I've never worked out why our supporters always seem to be so quick to pick up on our supposed luck, yet ignore what goes against us. We could have had two penalties, we had the most shots on target, we looked the better side, their man of the match was their keeper, yet we were the lucky ones.
To be honest I don't tend to focus on luck normally - all i was suggesting was that the result was down to things outside of our control, as opposed to things that were. I think that the use of hypotheticals has derailed what i was originally trying to say. Yes we could have had two penalties, but we didn't get them. We also could have scored 10 goals, we didn't do that either. What actually happened was that we got a point due to an error on someone's else part rather than anything we did ourselves. That's all i was trying to say...
We also didn't get two penalties, so Sheffield got a point due to an error on someone's else part rather than anything they did themselves.
How can you not see this?
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Ha ha - does no-one get where i'm coming from?
Nah, not really. 😁
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I've never worked out why our supporters always seem to be so quick to pick up on our supposed luck, yet ignore what goes against us. We could have had two penalties, we had the most shots on target, we looked the better side, their man of the match was their keeper, yet we were the lucky ones.
To be honest I don't tend to focus on luck normally - all i was suggesting was that the result was down to things outside of our control, as opposed to things that were. I think that the use of hypotheticals has derailed what i was originally trying to say. Yes we could have had two penalties, but we didn't get them. We also could have scored 10 goals, we didn't do that either. What actually happened was that we got a point due to an error on someone's else part rather than anything we did ourselves. That's all i was trying to say...
We also didn't get two penalties, so Sheffield got a point due to an error on someone's else part rather than anything they did themselves.
How can you not see this?
The difference is that being awarded 2 penalties does not mean 2 goals. They had an actual goal not given - there is a difference in an actual thing that happened compared to a "what might have been". How can you not see that?
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You're talking absolute nonsence. There were three poor decisions in that game. One should have resulted in a goal for them and two should have resulted in two penalties for us. I'd take those odds any day on us getting at least a draw and probably a win.
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You're talking absolute nonsence. There were three poor decisions in that game. One should have resulted in a goal for them and two should have resulted in two penalties for us. I'd take those odds any day on us getting at least a draw and probably a win.
I totally get what you're saying - the penalties would almost certainly have changed the game, but I guess we'll never know for sure. :-)
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I never get why an incident a few mins before half time means it would be the final score. We may have gone on to lose but the second half would have been different to how it was if the goal had been given.
Indeed. Anything could have happened, however we can only judge what was presented to us, and that was what I commented on.
You didn't comment on what happened. You commented on some alternative reality where "we lost" because for some reason you've decided to award their goal and ignore any possibility that the game might not have finished one-nil had it counted.
I haven't decided to award them anything - we got a draw and a point. Great. All i was saying was that the ball went in our goal more times that it did theirs. In any other scenario that would have meant we lost the game. We didn't, although that wasn't of our making - and that's my point. Regardless of how things could have gone, the simple facts are at the end of the game, the ball was in our net more times than theirs.
Hypothetical penalties don't mean anything as they are not a guaranteed goal and as these things didn't happen, it's impossible to say how it would have changed things.
Ha ha - does no-one get where i'm coming from?
Hypothetical goals don't mean anything either.
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If we're going by correct decisions, if we were given the penalty then their goal never happens as the game would have played out differently from that moment.
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This is all getting a bit 'angels on the head of a pin'.
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Juan Pablo? You are my angle, hilts.
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If we're going by correct decisions, if we were given the penalty then their goal never happens as the game would have played out differently from that moment.
There was that goalkick in the tenth minute. I think it went towards the left touch line instead of the right. If it had gone to the right, the game would probably have played out differently from there. So no free kick, no goal. I think.
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Going back to the thread title - am I starting to get worried?
Yes I am - it's hard to see where the wins will come from
We've still the same underwhelming squad and manager and we are starting to resemble a lower league team that relies heavily on one particular player . A win against Sheffield would have given everyone a big boost but despite a solid performance we still couldn't score - having Davis lead the attack sums it up for me - deploying a striker that doesn't score ain't gonna see you win many games - relying on Palace or Everton being on their holidays when they play us doesn't seem the best of survival plans
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Agree VCTM other than I'm resigned to us going down. Up until now we deserve to. Dean Smith says he selected the players that impressed him in recent weeks at BH and there lies our problem. A jumbled up mob with no plan. No doubt he will change the team against Chelsea and thereafter every week. I honestly think we're not half as bad as we pretend to be but then I've been saying that for the last 20 years.
One thing this season I could never understand was how we've gayly skipped from one defeat to another without a care in the world that we'll eventually get relegated.
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Agree VCTM other than I'm resigned to us going down. Up until now we deserve to. Dean Smith says he selected the players that impressed him in recent weeks at BH and there lies our problem. A jumbled up mob with no plan. No doubt he will change the team against Chelsea and thereafter every week. I honestly think we're not half as bad as we pretend to be but then I've been saying that for the last 20 years.
One thing this season I could never understand was how we've gayly skipped from one defeat to another without a care in the world that we'll eventually get relegated.
Your last sentence is so true imo. We seem to be sleepwalking to relegation. I appreciate that the players will try, a bit, but it is the same stuff from Dean, talking a good game, but the same tactics etc. I was a bit surprised that he didn't try to throw the kitchen sink at Sheffield United and I am concerned that he doesn't quite get that last drop from the players like one or two other managers seem to.
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Another one resigned to it. We're not down there for no reason. There will be some decent performances, we may even win a game or 2 but we're now looking for an unrealistic run of results.
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If we went down I don’t think we’d lose a load of our players. Jack obviously, Mings very likely and maybe SJM. And I love McGinn but he’s not a top 6 player in my opinion and he would be a target at a hefty price for the clubs in the middle of the table. If he really wants to play in the PL then it would cost one of those clubs a lot of money. So I’m not entirely convinced he’d be gone. Truthfully the rest of our squad in the Championship would be more than strong enough to win it. A few other players may want to get out but it’s not like they couldn’t be replaced intelligently at that level. And as much as I would be gutted and especially at the naivety of the manager and coaches, I would probably be ok with Dean Smith in the Championship than starting all over again.
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I don't get the mentality of some people, 1 point from safety and with a quarter of the season to go and you're all ready to throw in the towel.
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If we went down I don’t think we’d lose a load of our players. Jack obviously, Mings very likely and maybe SJM. And I love McGinn but he’s not a top 6 player in my opinion and he would be a target at a hefty price for the clubs in the middle of the table. If he really wants to play in the PL then it would cost one of those clubs a lot of money. So I’m not entirely convinced he’d be gone. Truthfully the rest of our squad in the Championship would be more than strong enough to win it. A few other players may want to get out but it’s not like they couldn’t be replaced intelligently at that level. And as much as I would be gutted and especially at the naivety of the manager and coaches, I would probably be ok with Dean Smith in the Championship than starting all over again.
No it wouldn't be the end of the world. But I'm not sure that our squad minus, for sake of argument, Jack, Mings, SJM, maybe Heaton, would be that dominant. Those first three are absolutely crucial players for us and replacing them with similar quality will be very difficult , impossible in Jack's case.
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If we went down I don’t think we’d lose a load of our players. Jack obviously, Mings very likely and maybe SJM. And I love McGinn but he’s not a top 6 player in my opinion and he would be a target at a hefty price for the clubs in the middle of the table. If he really wants to play in the PL then it would cost one of those clubs a lot of money. So I’m not entirely convinced he’d be gone. Truthfully the rest of our squad in the Championship would be more than strong enough to win it. A few other players may want to get out but it’s not like they couldn’t be replaced intelligently at that level. And as much as I would be gutted and especially at the naivety of the manager and coaches, I would probably be ok with Dean Smith in the Championship than starting all over again.
No it wouldn't be the end of the world. But I'm not sure that our squad minus, for sake of argument, Jack, Mings, SJM, maybe Heaton, would be that dominant. Those first three are absolutely crucial players for us and replacing them with similar quality will be very difficult , impossible in Jack's case.
No they would have to be replaced well. And you don’t just replace Jack. You just have find a different way to play.
But when you consider the possible opponents unlike the last few seasons no team stands out. We’d likely go down with Norwich and say Bournemouth (who quite possibly lose Howe). No Wolves, Newcastle, Sheff Utd, Leeds. Never easy but if we keep most things stable we should be strong favourites.
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I am not giving up on a Premier Division place but... if we went down, Steer, Guilbert, Konsa, Hause, Targett, Hourihane, Luiz, Samatta, AEG, would all be fine. The likes of Wesley, Elmo, Davis, Barry all ok too. We still need a proper defensive midfielder but Nakamba might be ok. We need another winger too, although Trezeguet might also be ok. I think I might be keen to hang on to Chester if he is fit as we need extra experience. If FFP is suspended, then we can spend what we need. We could do with a couple of midfield grafters if SJM moves on. Long way to go, but I fear the worst.
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Worrying when 2 of our relegation rivals come from behind to get something. With us I always think the old cliche we could play all night and not score.
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It's all over I'm afraid ,we simply do not have the quality on the pitch and have a average championship manager in charge.
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It's all over I'm afraid ,we simply do not have the quality on the pitch and have a average championship manager in charge.
Agreed, we’re lacking in the dug out as much as on the pitch.
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Hate to say it but we're hoping for a near miracle now to stay up! Squad & management team simply not good enough. Back to the drawing board!
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I’m worried. But with FFP being relaxed and a lot of these players being capable in the championship (the ones that stay) I have more confidence of bouncing back if the worst happens.
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Bloody hell. We might well go down, but it is neither “all over” nor do we need a “miracle”. We need to win a few games, which is perfectly possible. It might not happen, but there is plenty that can happen yet.
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I think we're more likely to finish bottom than stay up. The owners have to take some of the blame too.. Giving Dean Smith a free pass was a terrible decision.
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I have been driving down the road signposted worry for a long time. I think the next turning is signposted panic.
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I think there will be more than the “obvious 3” leave IF it happens.
With agents involvement, there will be plenty who will think they’re too good for the Championship.
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I'm not worried, just pissed off about going down with a shrug rather than a fight.
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Having proved they’re not of course.
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I think there will be more than the “obvious 3” leave IF it happens.
With agents involvement, there will be plenty who will think they’re too good for the Championship.
Already rumours about Trez and El Ghazi going, neither of whom I would miss. I can see Guilbert staying in the top division too.
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Bloody hell. We might well go down, but it is neither “all over” nor do we need a “miracle”. We need to win a few games, which is perfectly possible. It might not happen, but there is plenty that can happen yet.
Quite.
Wouldn't want to be with some of this lot in the trenches, fucking Hell.
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Arsenal bastards. I've taken a real disliking to them this season.
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It worried me when Dean said words to the effect of 'it's not the games against the top teams that are important, it's the games against those around us'. Not only because it was defeatist - no wonder we've not beaten any of the top sides with that attitude - but because it piles the pressure on the team to get results against those around us. And sure enough we dropped points in those games too.
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It worried me when Dean said words to the effect of 'it's not the games against the top teams that are important, it's the games against those around us'. Not only because it was defeatist - no wonder we've not beaten any of the top sides with that attitude - but because it piles the pressure on the team to get results against those around us. And sure enough we dropped points in those games too.
Smith is a nice man, and I would love him to do well, but thus far, he has looked out of his depth at this level.
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I don't get the mentality of some people, 1 point from safety and with a quarter of the season to go and you're all ready to throw in the towel.
We've lost the highest number of games.
We've conceded the most number of goals.
We've drawn the least number of games.
We've the second worst goal difference in the league.
Like you, I don't get the mentality of some people, starting with our Manager and players.
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I don't get the mentality of some people, 1 point from safety and with a quarter of the season to go and you're all ready to throw in the towel.
One point from safety? We are two points behind Watford who are in the 17th/safety position and they have a better goal difference than us. We are three points from safety at least. Three and a half points counting the goal difference.
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It worried me when Dean said words to the effect of 'it's not the games against the top teams that are important, it's the games against those around us'. Not only because it was defeatist - no wonder we've not beaten any of the top sides with that attitude - but because it piles the pressure on the team to get results against those around us. And sure enough we dropped points in those games too.
Smith is a nice man, and I would love him to do well, but thus far, he has looked out of his depth at this level.
Everything about him is class except the football.
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It worried me when Dean said words to the effect of 'it's not the games against the top teams that are important, it's the games against those around us'. Not only because it was defeatist - no wonder we've not beaten any of the top sides with that attitude - but because it piles the pressure on the team to get results against those around us. And sure enough we dropped points in those games too.
Smith is a nice man, and I would love him to do well, but thus far, he has looked out of his depth at this level.
Everything about him is class except the football.
I think at times Smith couldn't really believe he was managing in the Premier League.
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Pah, grow some balls you big bunch of pussies, we're staying up.
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The number of goals we gave away from trying to play it out from the back come what may was terrible, especially in the first half of the season. I can recall two instances in the very first game.
Dean seemed absolutely committed to doing that as it was 'the right way' but football just doesn't work like that. For one thing we didn't have the personnel to do it.
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Pah, grow some balls you big bunch of pussies, we're staying up.
You are Mazrim and I claim my tiny prize.
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One thing this season that reminds me of the relegation one was that back then, every week, I'd find myself thinking "maybe this is the week that we turn it around and start to show a bit of quality" but it never happened.
In that season it was a little different in that the entire club had pretty much accepted relegation by January (in which we did nothing to try to stop it).
However, I've found myself thinking the same thing this season, week after week there is either no improvement at all, or we look better and worth a win and throw it away needlessly (which is even more frustrating).
We are just so flat, paceless and predictable every week. Even when we don't lose, we never really look like we know what it takes to win matches at this level, and that for me is the fault of the manager. As someone else mentioned, his game management has been directly responsible for losing points which would have seen us far more likely to stay up now.
He sounds really plausible when you hear him speak, and it is very hard not to like someone with the sort of background he has got, but sometimes i find myself thinking back to the play off win and the feeling then, and I look at where we are now, and it is just so, so disappointing to think we have allowed things to spiral so awfully out of control.
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We’ve been caught in the traps we’ve set for the other teams. Whatever the fuck traps are.
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I don't get the mentality of some people, 1 point from safety and with a quarter of the season to go and you're all ready to throw in the towel.
One point from safety? We are two points behind Watford who are in the 17th/safety position and they have a better goal difference than us. We are three points from safety at least. Three and a half points counting the goal difference.
You really need to look at the table again. West Ham and Bournemouth are 1 point ahead of us. With West Ham playing now and Bournemouth playing later that might not be the case for long but it's absolutely correct as of now. If it's different in a few hours then you have to remember that we will, once again, have a game in hand on everyone near us at that point.
Goal difference may well become important later but with so many games to go I don't think it's at the point of considering it as an extra point.
I don't get the mentality of some people, 1 point from safety and with a quarter of the season to go and you're all ready to throw in the towel.
We've lost the highest number of games.
We've conceded the most number of goals.
We've drawn the least number of games.
We've the second worst goal difference in the league.
Like you, I don't get the mentality of some people, starting with our Manager and players.
Great, but you're ignoring any stats that don't support the idea that we're fucked, why would you choose to do that?
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The thing is, it is still possible to stay up but no-one has yet made a convincing case as to why our form will suddenly improve to a level it hasn't been at all season while hoping that other clubs won't. Same coach, same players, same tactics. It's like our result against Sheff Utd. Taken in isolation it was a point against a good team who played poorly. But everything that happens between now and the end of the season has to be seen in the context of what our rivals do.
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I don't get the mentality of some people, 1 point from safety and with a quarter of the season to go and you're all ready to throw in the towel.
We've lost the highest number of games.
We've conceded the most number of goals.
We've drawn the least number of games.
We've the second worst goal difference in the league.
Like you, I don't get the mentality of some people, starting with our Manager and players.
Great, but you're ignoring any stats that don't support the idea that we're fucked, why would you choose to do that?
I didn't choose. I had no choice. I'd love a straw to clutch. A win tomorrow and we're all smiling again but as Paulie mentioned earlier, every bloody week we look for 'that' performance to say we've finally turned the corner. Until now it's still not arrived.
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Pah, grow some balls you big bunch of pussies, we're staying up.
You are Mazrim and I claim my tiny prize.
Careful, if I find you I might punch you in the knee.
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The thing is, it is still possible to stay up but no-one has yet made a convincing case as to why our form will suddenly improve to a level it hasn't been at all season while hoping that other clubs won't. Same coach, same players, same tactics. It's like our result against Sheff Utd. Taken in isolation it was a point against a good team who played poorly. But everything that happens between now and the end of the season has to be seen in the context of what our rivals do.
That’s the nutshell version. Pretty much since December we’ve been as concerned as our rivals failing as we have about ourselves. In fact that pendulum has swung to the former because who of us has real faith our form will suddenly and miraculously change? Or the same players and staff will find a level of ability to take games to our opponents? I really want to believe but my tank of confidence has a massive hole in it and is leaking badly.
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We have to win a game just to get out of the bottom three, as it stands. That win seems really difficult to come by. I also agree with Paulie, really good post. We do not have the players to sustain a run of wins, the January transfer window was a disaster, other than an untested Samatta (sorry, but I don't really see that much in him either, needs to play with a partner I reckon). To not address the centre of the park should be an embarrassment for Dean and Suso. We are sleepwalking to relegation. I don't want it, I want fight, consistency and bottle from the players, and from Dean for that matter. Sadly, we don't seem to have a great deal of that either. Hope for the best but expecting the worst I'm afraid. Fuck, I'd love to be wrong.
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I didn't choose. I had no choice. I'd love a straw to clutch. A win tomorrow and we're all smiling again but as Paulie mentioned earlier, every bloody week we look for 'that' performance to say we've finally turned the corner. Until now it's still not arrived.
Of course it's a choice. We made more signings than anyone in the summer and have one of the youngest squads in the league. An unexpected break is better for us than almost any other team because it was a chance to reflect on what wasn't working. Loads of you have decided there was nothing from the game the other day to give us hope but I don't agree. Luiz played the role that has been missing and is rightly being called our player of the match for it, Targett and Mings looked like they had a better understanding and Davis showed he can be a target man for us.
All that said if you all want to start planning for the championship you can go ahead, I'll just go back to ignoring this thread for a while.
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We have to win a game just to get out of the bottom three, as it stands. That win seems really difficult to come by. I also agree with Paulie, really good post. We do not have the players to sustain a run of wins, the January transfer window was a disaster, other than an untested Samatta (sorry, but I don't really see that much in him either, needs to play with a partner I reckon). To not address the centre of the park should be an embarrassment for Dean and Suso. We are sleepwalking to relegation. I don't want it, I want fight, consistency and bottle from the players, and from Dean for that matter. Sadly, we don't seem to have a great deal of that either. Hope for the best but expecting the worst I'm afraid. Fuck, I'd love to be wrong.
Have to agree sadly, I just don't see us getting out of this one and fear we will be down with a few games to spare.
Whichever way you shuffle the formation and the personnel, you are left with a lack of quality in a few areas. There have been some decent enough signings, but think they took too many risks and it is the transfers which will be the main reason if we do drop.
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I didn't choose. I had no choice. I'd love a straw to clutch. A win tomorrow and we're all smiling again but as Paulie mentioned earlier, every bloody week we look for 'that' performance to say we've finally turned the corner. Until now it's still not arrived.
Of course it's a choice. We made more signings than anyone in the summer and have one of the youngest squads in the league. An unexpected break is better for us than almost any other team because it was a chance to reflect on what wasn't working. Loads of you have decided there was nothing from the game the other day to give us hope but I don't agree. Luiz played the role that has been missing and is rightly being called our player of the match for it, Targett and Mings looked like they had a better understanding and Davis showed he can be a target man for us.
All that said if you all want to start planning for the championship you can go ahead, I'll just go back to ignoring this thread for a while.
Time will tell Paul. We were slightly better organised at the back but still have the gaping holes in front of them and continue to make stupid mistakes. Stop that from happening and we may have a chance. I just don't see it though.
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We actually had a reasonable start, but that just shows how bad we've been ever since.
Since we beat Brighton at VP with Targett's last minute winner, we've played 20 league games with a record of W4, D2, L14. That is desperately poor.
We've kept saying it would change when we had an easier run of fixtures but nothing did. I simply can't see it changing now.
On that basis we have nothing to lose. I'd rather see us get relegated having a go, than get relegated trying to draw our final 9 games 0-0.
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I just want us to stay up, even if it means nine 0-0s. Couldn't care less how we do it so long as we stay up.
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I just want us to stay up, even if it means nine 0-0s. Couldn't care less how we do it so long as we stay up.
We're not going to keep 9 clean sheets in a row.
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That West Ham result was excellent, that’ll knock the stuffing out of them.
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All that said if you all want to start planning for the championship you can go ahead, I'll just go back to ignoring this thread for a while.
Surprising to find people worried about relegation in a thread called "Anyone starting to get worried?"
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All that said if you all want to start planning for the championship you can go ahead, I'll just go back to ignoring this thread for a while.
Surprising to find people worried about relegation in a thread called "Anyone starting to get worried?"
Worried about about relegation and accepting relegation as inevitable when we're a point from safety with a quarter of the season to play isn't the same thing at all.
I only posted again because I came back on the thread to modify my post with something to this effect but replying seemed easier.
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The thing is, it is still possible to stay up but no-one has yet made a convincing case as to why our form will suddenly improve to a level it hasn't been at all season while hoping that other clubs won't. Same coach, same players, same tactics. It's like our result against Sheff Utd. Taken in isolation it was a point against a good team who played poorly. But everything that happens between now and the end of the season has to be seen in the context of what our rivals do.
In and of itself a point wasn't that bad, if a missed opportunity. If Leicester and Arsenal had held their leads we probably would have been more sanguine. But Watford and Brighton's reluctance to surrender their opening games have made our efforts look pretty small time, as well as leaving us in the shit. It's not just the increase in the gap, but the way we seemed so satisfied that we'd done a decent job.
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I just want us to stay up, even if it means nine 0-0s. Couldn't care less how we do it so long as we stay up.
We're not going to keep 9 clean sheets in a row.
And 9 points wouldn't be enough even if we did!
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I just want us to stay up, even if it means nine 0-0s. Couldn't care less how we do it so long as we stay up.
t
I'm desperate for us to stay up, as hopefully lessons would be learned, and the few quality players we need would be brought in to hopefully ensure a better season.
Going down and being stripped of the spine of our side would be an almighty boot in the knackers.
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One thing this season that reminds me of the relegation one was that back then, every week, I'd find myself thinking "maybe this is the week that we turn it around and start to show a bit of quality" but it never happened.
In that season it was a little different in that the entire club had pretty much accepted relegation by January (in which we did nothing to try to stop it).
However, I've found myself thinking the same thing this season, week after week there is either no improvement at all, or we look better and worth a win and throw it away needlessly (which is even more frustrating).
We are just so flat, paceless and predictable every week. Even when we don't lose, we never really look like we know what it takes to win matches at this level, and that for me is the fault of the manager. As someone else mentioned, his game management has been directly responsible for losing points which would have seen us far more likely to stay up now.
He sounds really plausible when you hear him speak, and it is very hard not to like someone with the sort of background he has got, but sometimes i find myself thinking back to the play off win and the feeling then, and I look at where we are now, and it is just so, so disappointing to think we have allowed things to spiral so awfully out of control.
Agree with every word. It’s just typical Villa again if we go down. We’ve finally got some owners that mean business, we were given the platform to kick on massively and instead appear to have allowed someone completely out of this depth to trawl the minor leagues of Europe and land us with a very average squad of players at this level.
I just hope they stay with us if the worst happens.
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Average players can be made to look better with decent coaches. Take a look at Adama or even Ayew. But an average coach won't get anything more out of them.
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I think we’re down. Not sure why as the players are good enough to stay up, we just seem to lack that extra edge for grinding out the wins. Maybe it’s a lack of belief.
If they can show that passion and willingness to win which we showed in the cup against Leicester, starting from tomorrow, then maybe I’ll believe otherwise.
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This is the thing I don't get about Villa - I don't see the head-dropping during defeat that was present in 2016, but it's arguably worse to just take it on the chin. It feels like Steve Martin coaching his son's baseball team in 'Parenthood' - "never mind, lads, we'll have pizza anyway."
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One thing this season that reminds me of the relegation one was that back then, every week, I'd find myself thinking "maybe this is the week that we turn it around and start to show a bit of quality" but it never happened.
In that season it was a little different in that the entire club had pretty much accepted relegation by January (in which we did nothing to try to stop it).
However, I've found myself thinking the same thing this season, week after week there is either no improvement at all, or we look better and worth a win and throw it away needlessly (which is even more frustrating).
We are just so flat, paceless and predictable every week. Even when we don't lose, we never really look like we know what it takes to win matches at this level, and that for me is the fault of the manager. As someone else mentioned, his game management has been directly responsible for losing points which would have seen us far more likely to stay up now.
He sounds really plausible when you hear him speak, and it is very hard not to like someone with the sort of background he has got, but sometimes i find myself thinking back to the play off win and the feeling then, and I look at where we are now, and it is just so, so disappointing to think we have allowed things to spiral so awfully out of control.
Agree with every word. It’s just typical Villa again if we go down. We’ve finally got some owners that mean business, we were given the platform to kick on massively and instead appear to have allowed someone completely out of this depth to trawl the minor leagues of Europe and land us with a very average squad of players at this level.
I just hope they stay with us if the worst happens.
There's the thing. You say they mean business but they have stood by and watched this happen.
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We actually had a reasonable start, but that just shows how bad we've been ever since.
Since we beat Brighton at VP with Targett's last minute winner, we've played 20 league games with a record of W4, D2, L14. That is desperately poor.
We've kept saying it would change when we had an easier run of fixtures but nothing did. I simply can't see it changing now.
On that basis we have nothing to lose. I'd rather see us get relegated having a go, than get relegated trying to draw our final 9 games 0-0.
Just for context, West Ham and Bournemouth’s record over the same period is identical. If you assume Norwich are gone, at least one of those two and us must stay up. It’s certainly not a given, but I don’t see any reason to believe it’s not possible for us to finish above the two of them.
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One thing this season that reminds me of the relegation one was that back then, every week, I'd find myself thinking "maybe this is the week that we turn it around and start to show a bit of quality" but it never happened.
In that season it was a little different in that the entire club had pretty much accepted relegation by January (in which we did nothing to try to stop it).
However, I've found myself thinking the same thing this season, week after week there is either no improvement at all, or we look better and worth a win and throw it away needlessly (which is even more frustrating).
We are just so flat, paceless and predictable every week. Even when we don't lose, we never really look like we know what it takes to win matches at this level, and that for me is the fault of the manager. As someone else mentioned, his game management has been directly responsible for losing points which would have seen us far more likely to stay up now.
He sounds really plausible when you hear him speak, and it is very hard not to like someone with the sort of background he has got, but sometimes i find myself thinking back to the play off win and the feeling then, and I look at where we are now, and it is just so, so disappointing to think we have allowed things to spiral so awfully out of control.
Agree with every word. It’s just typical Villa again if we go down. We’ve finally got some owners that mean business, we were given the platform to kick on massively and instead appear to have allowed someone completely out of this depth to trawl the minor leagues of Europe and land us with a very average squad of players at this level.
I just hope they stay with us if the worst happens.
If we went down it would be primarily due to Smith doing a poor job as opposed to Suso or anyone else. He’s made so many mistakes this season that have cost us points I think he’s lucky to still be in the job quite frankly.
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I can't deny the fact that before lockdown I was calling for us to approach Big Sam to keep us up.
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Average players can be made to look better with decent coaches. Take a look at Adama or even Ayew. But an average coach won't get anything more out of them.
I’d say Smith has improved Grealish and Mings at the very least.
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I really hope to see Davies and Samatta up front together tomorrow, I just don’t think Smith will try it. He’s tried a couple different systems this season and nothing has quite worked out consistently enough.
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If we don't want to break the Villa fan/manager link, reminder that Prandelli's an admirer of the claret and blue...
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Overall two very good results this afternoon/evening.
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Overall two very good results this afternoon/evening.
only if Smith can get a tune out of this underwhelming squad of players
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Yet another massive opportunity just begging to be spurned.
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That’s the spirit.
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That’s the spirit.
Just a little bit of reverse psychology.
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The point is we are 3/4 of the way through the season and we still don’t know our best 11 or our best formation. That’s down to Smith and his team.
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I'm hoping this season is like 2010-11. Tough run in including a six pointer away at West Ham. In the end, we cruised it. Of course, we had a proper striker then.
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Obviously I’d love a win tomorrow but after today’s results a draw would be decent.
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After seeing West Ham and Bournemouth, I'm much less worried.
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The point is we are 3/4 of the way through the season and we still don’t know our best 11 or our best formation. That’s down to Smith and his team.
I'd imagine the same applies to most teams near the bottom. Having a settled side is a luxury of the successful teams. Even they rotate all the time. Sheffield United probably the exception, because they don't have a big enough squad to do so.
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After seeing West Ham and Bournemouth, I'm much less worried.
Dunno, I saw a team that had lost nine-nil at home suddenly turn into Barcelona for a month earlier this season. So I won't read too much into today's performances.
Still, I certainly feel a lot better than I did at, say, six o'clock, anyway. Be great if we could stick one over one of the bloody London sides that have shafted us all season tomorrow.
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Average players can be made to look better with decent coaches. Take a look at Adama or even Ayew. But an average coach won't get anything more out of them.
I’d say Smith has improved Grealish and Mings at the very least.
I'd say it is really arguable about Grealish. He was very good under Sherwood too. Mings is now an England international but still has major flaws to his game, he's good on the floor but wet in the air for starters, good communicator, but prone to silly errors. Talk us through the rest of the players that any of our coaching staff have improved? I don't see it but hope to by the end of the season as we stay up.
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Talk us through the rest of the players that any of our coaching staff have improved? I don't see it but hope to by the end of the season as we stay up.
Maybe Nyland? But yes, I agree.
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Talk us through the rest of the players that any of our coaching staff have improved? I don't see it but hope to by the end of the season as we stay up.
Maybe Nyland? But yes, I agree.
He fills me with dread too mate. I'd prefer Steer if he was fit.
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The point is we are 3/4 of the way through the season and we still don’t know our best 11 or our best formation. That’s down to Smith and his team.
Think a big part of that is that whichever formation we play, there are areas covered by substandard players.
Might turn out not to be the case, but it is more than likely that we are going to have to win a few games to stay up. I think our best chance of that is to play a formation with two up front and Grealish in a central area just behind them.
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Average players can be made to look better with decent coaches. Take a look at Adama or even Ayew. But an average coach won't get anything more out of them.
I’d say Smith has improved Grealish and Mings at the very least.
I'd say it is really arguable about Grealish. He was very good under Sherwood too. Mings is now an England international but still has major flaws to his game, he's good on the floor but wet in the air for starters, good communicator, but prone to silly errors. Talk us through the rest of the players that any of our coaching staff have improved? I don't see it but hope to by the end of the season as we stay up.
I was responding the point by curiousorange that our ‘average’ players won’t improve under our ‘average’ coach. I was just pointing out two examples where players patently have improved under Smith.
It’s a bit of a simplistic way of looking at it anyway. Like you say, Grealish has some excellent games under Sherwood and Adama, from the example above, played for Barcelona at 17. There are clearly loads of other factors that contribute towards a players development as well as just their manager - but to say Smith can’t improve players isn’t true in my opinion.
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The point is we are 3/4 of the way through the season and we still don’t know our best 11 or our best formation. That’s down to Smith and his team.
Think a big part of that is that whichever formation we play, there are areas covered by substandard players.
Might turn out not to be the case, but it is more than likely that we are going to have to win a few games to stay up. I think our best chance of that is to play a formation with two up front and Grealish in a central area just behind them.
I tend to agree but know for certain that given how weak our midfield is when three of them are in there, if it was just one, to give Grealish free reign, it would be like 90 minutes of attack Vs defence.
I'm not sure my heart could cope with that!
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The point is we are 3/4 of the way through the season and we still don’t know our best 11 or our best formation. That’s down to Smith and his team.
Think a big part of that is that whichever formation we play, there are areas covered by substandard players.
Might turn out not to be the case, but it is more than likely that we are going to have to win a few games to stay up. I think our best chance of that is to play a formation with two up front and Grealish in a central area just behind them.
I tend to agree but know for certain that given how weak our midfield is when three of them are in there, if it was just one, to give Grealish free reign, it would be like 90 minutes of attack Vs defence.
I'm not sure my heart could cope with that!
I can’t see it happening but, you would think that, if we did go two up front it would be in something like a 4-3-1-2 formation so we didn’t open up the midfield completely. Would put a lot of emphasis on the full backs providing the attacking width though.
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Groundhog day yet again against top 6/7 team.
Time is really running out now. Simply have to beat Newcastle but really from the first minute of the Bournemouth game in February we've looked like we belong in the bottom 3.
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Had the lead against Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Tottenham (home and away) and Man United. Points won: one.
We have always been a bunch of bottling fannies and have taken it to new levels this season.
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Just checking that Newcastle and Palace are the games we’re hoping to win? Two teams that despatched their opponents over the weekend.
Or are we going to roll over and let them tickle our tummies too?
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Had the lead against Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Tottenham (home and away) and Man United. Points won: one.
We have always been a bunch of bottling fannies and have taken it to new levels this season.
Yep, poor game management and sitting back.
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Not worried at all. Just resigned to it.
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Total lack of anything even vaguely resembling pace on the break means that teams can just camp in our half when they need to score. We always looked short of attacking options and did fuck all about it.
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We appear to have no intensity or a plan of how to attack. If you have neither of those you’re buried. It was desperate today.
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I’m beyond the worried stage and into the resigned stage.
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Same here.
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We’re done. It reeks of relegation at B6
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Lose at Newcastle and although there'll be plenty of points left I think that would be us done.
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I'm expecting some horrific payback from them Geordies....https://www.nufcblog.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Villa-fans.jpg
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Don’t worry folks I forgot that Dean’s teams get better towards the end of the season...
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Worried no, I am resigned to putting up with the likes of Barnsley away 5 30 kickoff
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A great day out for the travelling virtual fans.
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Konsa at right back is a weak option as well, it screams we’re planning to be on the back foot. We need our full backs to carry an attacking threat to actually create some space.
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I’ve got this sense that we’ll just survive and have a great season next year. Just like SGT’s first season back in Division One all those years ago.
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I’ve got this sense that we’ll just survive and have a great season next year. Just like SGT’s first season back in Division One all those years ago.
Christ I’ll have what you’re having!
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I don't think the players believe they can do it & if we're honest they're not good enough.
We're going down & its what we deserve.
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I’ve got this sense that we’ll just survive and have a great season next year. Just like SGT’s first season back in Division One all those years ago.
That was then and I remember it, but this is very different. Today was appalling, not to get beaten by Chelsea but the manner. If you go into a game knowing you will be without the ball for periods of the game, you do not go with 4-3-3. Try and get players in who can break up the play, and cause problems a 4-2-31 or a diamond with Douglas the bottom and Jack at the top, we could even play two strikers, heresy i hear heresy, you cant play two forwards in 2020!!!
Look we are not good enough, the gamble of getting in unproven players looks as bad now as Lambert's young and hungry. We are going down and ok im a miserable sod, and you wouldn't want me in the trench with you, but FFS!!! Dean try and change it lets at least go down with a fight.
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I’ve got this sense that we’ll just survive and have a great season next year. Just like SGT’s first season back in Division One all those years ago.
Christ I’ll have what you’re having!
It’s called Blind Faith!
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I’ve got this sense that we’ll just survive and have a great season next year. Just like SGT’s first season back in Division One all those years ago.
I think the difference is that SGT was a top-flight manager who had the respect of the players.
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As others have said, I am not worried, I am resigned. We simply cannot sustain anything. 8 left, we need 4 wins minimum. Just not going to happen.
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I’ve got this sense that we’ll just survive and have a great season next year. Just like SGT’s first season back in Division One all those years ago.
Christ I’ll have what you’re having!
It’s called Blind Faith!
Will not get us to 36 / 37 points. If blind faith was all that we need we would have won the League Cup. People wake up!!!
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I’ve got this sense that we’ll just survive and have a great season next year. Just like SGT’s first season back in Division One all those years ago.
I think the difference is that SGT was a top-flight manager who had the respect of the players.
I remember at the time he wasn’t getting much from fans.
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We absolutely have to go out and having attacking intent now. There’s no point in sitting in and getting picked off.
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Bad recruitment has done for us. Better check the Sunday train-times for the Bl*es game next season to see what ungodly hour I'll have to leave for the station.
:'(
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It’s not just bad recruitment. It’s a real lack of a tactical plan that’s the main problem.
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Not as worried as I was an hour ago. Kids bought me a bottle or two of Hobgoblins Ruby 6.6% for Fathers Day which post match I’m thoroughly enjoying. Can now see us beating Newcastle and Wolves quite comfortably.
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Konsa at right back is a weak option as well, it screams we’re planning to be on the back foot. We need our full backs to carry an attacking threat to actually create some space.
Konsa is rubbish, right back or centre back. Utterly mugged by Brentford on his price too. When the alternative is Elmo you know you have a problem but Elmo should be starting instead of Konsa. Even defensively Elmo is better than Konsa and much better going forward.
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I've said consistently we should never have bought him. That money should have gone towards a more established striker.
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It’s not just bad recruitment. It’s a real lack of a tactical plan that’s the main problem.
The management have been shocking. I lost faith in them when we were throwing away points from August to December. I've lost count of the points chucked away- 5-6 minimum.
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I've said consistently we should never have bought him. That money should have gone towards a more established striker.
Konsa, Target and Wesley. Got mugged for them all. Trez is another not good enough but at least his fee wasn't astronomical.
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I reckon we've dropped over 20 points from winning positions this season.
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I reckon we've dropped over 20 points from winning positions this season.
Much is due to poor game management - that's the managers job. We've simply learned nothing and repeated the same mistakes over and over. For all the talk of poor recruitment it's our failure to adapt that'll cost us.
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Wilder has Enda Stevens looking ok as a premier League fullback. Smith spent £12m on Target.
Dyche has Westwood winning player of the season awards.
Nuno has Traore looking like a world-beater.
Our problem is coaching and management, has been for many years now. Do many players look better the moment they leave, so many players regress once they join us.
We need to keep switching until we get lucky with a good management team. Smith is not the answerm
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I’m sure sky said we had won 2 points from a possible 45 against the top six this season.
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Just holding onto draws in injury time against Liverpool and Spurs and we'd be 17th. Straight away two obvious games we should never have lost.
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I’m sure sky said we had won 2 points from a possible 45 against the top six this season.
I thought they said the top 10, but 2 out of 45 is damning in in either case.
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Can't be top 6 as 45 points is 15 games.
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I reckon we've dropped over 20 points from winning positions this season.
Which suggests that coaching and setting the team up is ok but game management is abysmal.
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I reckon we've dropped over 20 points from winning positions this season.
Which suggests that coaching and setting the team up is ok but game management is abysmal.
And often we haven't even come out of those games with a point, we've actually ended up losing.
Norwich away aside, all our wins seem to have been squeakers - we rarely put a team away despite regularly having got into the position to do so. I vaguely recall a quote from DS before the season about approaching every game trying to win it - we've been so meek at times its untrue.
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I started to get worried Arsenal second half and that game sucked a lot of belief out of the players.
Smith stood there watching us get dominated by 10 men without a clue what to do.
The same thing has happened time and again. I was hoping the break would help us but yesterday proved nothing has changed. He has no idea how to effect the game with subs or tactics.
I think there is enough talent in the squad to give us a chance but I don’t think the management is up to it.
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There's an utter lack of belief as well.
Most of the time we don't even seem to be trying to win, but rather just trying to avoid conceding with blind hoofs out from the back and no real intent or idea as to retaining the ball.
I know Smith said we had 10 cup games to stay up, but he's treating them like cup games where we've been drawn against opposition from three divisions above us!
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I reckon we've dropped over 20 points from winning positions this season.
I make it 14 points. I thought it would be more as well, but turns out we’ve capitulated from the start quite a lot as well.
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I look at Sheff Utd's squad and don't see a great deal of better quality than we have.
The difference is the manager.
Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work hard.
Any team is beatable in this league, but it takes hard work, and adaptability, we appear to have neither.
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I look at Sheff Utd's squad and don't see a great deal of better quality than we have.
The difference is the manager.
Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work hard.
Any team is beatable in this league, but it takes hard work, and adaptability, we appear to have neither.
I was hoping that get to half time, shore up the midfield Push Jack centrally to hold the ball and frustrate Chelsea in the second half. Try to get a foothold in the game, protect the lead and maybe Even get another.
And what did we do at half time ?
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I can't see us scoring enough goals to win games, especially when we seem to have at one least self induced fk up per game.
We got away with it against Sheff Utd, but lets be truthful, it should be zero points after 2 games back.
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As you imply, we did nothing CL. That’s the most disappointing aspect to me. I have been a strong supporter of Dean Smith, but I must admit I think his inability to ‘manage’ games through setting up the team right and then making timely tactical changes in ‘real time’ will be his and our undoing. I hate to say it but I’m not sure he has got that ability and that’s a no-no for a manager at any level. You can only work with the players you’ve got ( and they are very average/ poor generally) but to not to get the most out of them is unforgivable. Even Guardiola would probably only get another 6-8 points out of this squad, but that will be the difference between staying up and going down.
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If we continue to start games with the intention of going into our bunker and desperately trying to cling on we have no hope. It’s utterly defeatist and it’s also counterproductive, especially with our squad. We have no pace to scare teams on the break. We just get overloaded until we get broken down. Then Dean makes like for like subs and surprise surprise nothing improves. It’s weak minded and doomed to failure.
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Newcastle at home was one of our few good performances of the season, a relatively dominant performance and comfortable win. That has to be the order of the day on Wednesday.
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If we continue to start games with the intention of going into our bunker and desperately trying to cling on we have no hope. It’s utterly defeatist and it’s also counterproductive, especially with our squad. We have no pace to scare teams on the break. We just get overloaded until we get broken down. Then Dean makes like for like subs and surprise surprise nothing improves. It’s weak minded and doomed to failure.
I agree, the lack of pace at this level is a killer. It annoys me to say it but Adama Traore made all the diffference when he came on for the dogheads the other day.
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We will get beaten at Newcastle imo but it won't change anything now for Smith. Whatever happens he's here until close of play.
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I reckon we've dropped over 20 points from winning positions this season.
Much is due to poor game management - that's the managers job. We've simply learned nothing and repeated the same mistakes over and over. For all the talk of poor recruitment it's our failure to adapt that'll cost us.
An astute management and coaching team can manage their resources and find a way to grind out enough points. 3 or 4 defeats - Arsenal Away, Bournemouth at home, and arguably Liverpool at home and Spurs away should have been draws. That's 4 points straight away and that's not counting the West Ham home game that should have been a win and Man Utd away which at the time felt like a disappointment. There are better examples than the ones given, I just can't think off them right now. I think the players had the same thoughts, actually, as we had squandered so many points by the time we played Leicester at home and the wheels just fell off.
An astute backroom team would have got us safe, despite some of the problems in the squad. If I'm honest, this has been a really disappointing season for me personally. The Lambert years weren't pleasant, and the year we got relegated was a horror show, but this season we have been so frustratingly, I don't know, call it what you want, reckless- careless- profligate.
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There's an utter lack of belief as well.
Most of the time we don't even seem to be trying to win, but rather just trying to avoid conceding with blind hoofs out from the back and no real intent or idea as to retaining the ball.
I know Smith said we had 10 cup games to stay up, but he's treating them like cup games where we've been drawn against opposition from three divisions above us!
Spot on. The way we were trying to defend with 10 men in the box yesterday, before hoofing it out on the odd occasion we did get the ball was utterly embarrassing. As somebody said, I've moved from 'worried' to 'resigned'.
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We could still survive. We are a point away, not cut adrift.
The question is can we get a just a little bit better than a point a game from what's left.
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We could still survive. We are a point away, not cut adrift.
The question is can we get a just a little bit better than a point a game from what's left.
Cant see us getting a point a game with this shambles. If we don't ditch Smith I predict 3-4 more points tops.
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We could still survive. We are a point away, not cut adrift.
The question is can we get a just a little bit better than a point a game from what's left.
Given our goal difference, it's two points. We now need to rely on other teams doing badly, AND us taking advantage when they do, which as we've seen, is just not something we're capable of.
We've got 8 matches left, and I just can't see where the points are coming from.
Liverpool, Man U, Arsenal and Wolves will be almost certain defeats. So we'll need points from Newcastle, Palace, Everton and West Ham. I can't see us getting more than 4-6 points from the rest of the season, which will put us on 30-32 points, and cetain relegation.
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We could still survive. We are a point away, not cut adrift.
The question is can we get a just a little bit better than a point a game from what's left.
Given our goal difference, it's two points. We now need to rely on other teams doing badly, AND us taking advantage when they do, which as we've seen, is just not something we're capable of.
We've got 8 matches left, and I just can't see where the points are coming from.
Liverpool, Man U, Arsenal and Wolves will be almost certain defeats. So we'll need points from Newcastle, Palace, Everton and West Ham. I can't see us getting more than 4-6 points from the rest of the season, which will put us on 30-32 points, and cetain relegation.
The reference to the first four games as certain defeats sounds like a Dean Smith pre-match press conference!
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This is the worst Arsenal team for decades. We shouldn't be writing that off straight away.
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I think we could get something out of Arsenal and MU definitely, already matched MU at their place, but we need to get back to playing like we were earlier in the season, it should be doable given who we have fit.
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I started to get worried Arsenal second half and that game sucked a lot of belief out of the players.
Smith stood there watching us get dominated by 10 men without a clue what to do.
The same thing has happened time and again. I was hoping the break would help us but yesterday proved nothing has changed. He has no idea how to effect the game with subs or tactics.
I think there is enough talent in the squad to give us a chance but I don’t think the management is up to it.
I still think the Spurs home game did a lot of damage.
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This is the worst Arsenal team for decades. We shouldn't be writing that off straight away.
That's true but I still worry about Aubameyang and Lacazette against our back four.
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It doesn't seem to matter how shit the teams are who used to be good, it doesn't seem to matter that the shit teams are well shit. It doesn't seem to matter who we play, we just don't appear to be mentally capable of a) having confidence to win and b) even in the unlikely event we manage to get in front holding onto the lead. I was at dad's yesterday afternoon and saw it come up that we had scored. I didn't celebrate, I wasn't even close to thinking we could hold onto that lead. And I hate being proved right. This is another of Dean's disastrous streak of games and unfortunately this time it is going to cost us a place in the league.
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We’ve taken 2 points from our last 7 games. I reckon that based on how those games were playing out I reckon it would be unreasonable to have expected an addition 7-9 points. Far far too often we’ve thrown points away. It’s down to poor management.
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I started to get worried Arsenal second half and that game sucked a lot of belief out of the players.
Smith stood there watching us get dominated by 10 men without a clue what to do.
The same thing has happened time and again. I was hoping the break would help us but yesterday proved nothing has changed. He has no idea how to effect the game with subs or tactics.
I think there is enough talent in the squad to give us a chance but I don’t think the management is up to it.
I still think the Spurs home game did a lot of damage.
Yeah I thought we were down the moment Son scored and nothing I saw at Southampton and Leicester or indeed in the three games since has changed my mind.
We are as fragile as f*** and with Jack dipping in form we simply don't carry much attacking threat so classic bottom 3 team.
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Not sure where to put this but I reckon it might help us if Liverpool win the title tonight. I think he'll still play first team against Man City next week regardless but may start rotating match after, I.e. us. Alternatively, if Citeh win tonight and next week Liverpool can win it against us.
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Not sure where to put this but I reckon it might help us if Liverpool win the title tonight. I think he'll still play first team against Man City next week regardless but may start rotating match after, I.e. us. Alternatively, if Citeh win tonight and next week Liverpool can win it against us.
We are down to needing snookers, if Liverpool secure the title they might vacate mentally and or play some lesser players I don’t see it myself.
I expect we will get easily beaten.
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I'm hoping Liverpool have the title wrapped up long before they play us and we find ourselves against their cup team.
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They're either going to win it tonight or next Thursday. Those are the only options before we play them.
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we would lose playing ourselves at the minute.
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It's going okay, in the sense that we are doing enough at the moment to give ourselves a chance. Sticking to my one-day cricket analogy, we're up to the required run rate in points, and only marginally behind on the Duckworth–Lewis–Stern of goal difference. We only need to finish 17th, and we only need to be there when that final final whistle blows.
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Not sure where to put this but I reckon it might help us if Liverpool win the title tonight. I think he'll still play first team against Man City next week regardless but may start rotating match after, I.e. us. Alternatively, if Citeh win tonight and next week Liverpool can win it against us.
We are down to needing snookers, if Liverpool secure the title they might vacate mentally and or play some lesser players I don’t see it myself.
I expect we will get easily beaten.
It's in our hands still.
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This is the worst Arsenal team for decades. We shouldn't be writing that off straight away.
That's true but I still worry about Aubameyang and Lacazette against our back four.
Lacazette hasn't scored a single away goal in the league all season.
A good betting tip for when they play us if nothing else.
Ultimately Arsenal have won two away games all season (same as us) so they've been rubbish for pretty much all of the season. Can't see them lifting a leg right at the end when they can't do it now seeing as they still have a slight chance of finishing in 7th which could still be enough for europa.
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This is the worst Arsenal team for decades. We shouldn't be writing that off straight away.
That's true but I still worry about Aubameyang and Lacazette against our back four.
Lacazette hasn't scored a single away goal in the league all season.
A good betting tip for when they play us if nothing else.
Ultimately Arsenal have won two away games all season (same as us) so they've been rubbish for pretty much all of the season. Can't see them lifting a leg right at the end when they can't do it now seeing as they still have a slight chance of finishing in 7th which could still be enough for europa.
Ok Arsenal is definitely 3 points, where are the other points coming from ?
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This is the worst Arsenal team for decades. We shouldn't be writing that off straight away.
That's true but I still worry about Aubameyang and Lacazette against our back four.
Lacazette hasn't scored a single away goal in the league all season.
A good betting tip for when they play us if nothing else.
Ultimately Arsenal have won two away games all season (same as us) so they've been rubbish for pretty much all of the season. Can't see them lifting a leg right at the end when they can't do it now seeing as they still have a slight chance of finishing in 7th which could still be enough for europa.
Ok Arsenal is definitely 3 points, where are the other points coming from ?
We might not be favourites, but it’s hardly out of the realms of possibility that we can get something from Palace, West Ham or Everton. Don’t think Man United have been that good that you can completely write that off either.
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This is the worst Arsenal team for decades. We shouldn't be writing that off straight away.
That's true but I still worry about Aubameyang and Lacazette against our back four.
Lacazette hasn't scored a single away goal in the league all season.
A good betting tip for when they play us if nothing else.
Ultimately Arsenal have won two away games all season (same as us) so they've been rubbish for pretty much all of the season. Can't see them lifting a leg right at the end when they can't do it now seeing as they still have a slight chance of finishing in 7th which could still be enough for europa.
Ok Arsenal is definitely 3 points, where are the other points coming from ?
We might not be favourites, but it’s hardly out of the realms of possibility that we can get something from Palace, West Ham or Everton. Don’t think Man United have been that good that you can completely write that off either.
I think we might pick up a couple of draws and will need to beat Arse to go into the last game with something to play for.
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This is the worst Arsenal team for decades. We shouldn't be writing that off straight away.
That's true but I still worry about Aubameyang and Lacazette against our back four.
Lacazette hasn't scored a single away goal in the league all season.
A good betting tip for when they play us if nothing else.
Ultimately Arsenal have won two away games all season (same as us) so they've been rubbish for pretty much all of the season. Can't see them lifting a leg right at the end when they can't do it now seeing as they still have a slight chance of finishing in 7th which could still be enough for europa.
Ok Arsenal is definitely 3 points, where are the other points coming from ?
I saw Palace as a must win game but they are very good away from home. Still there's a match where we'll probably have to go all out for the win compared to others we're playing in the run in.
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It’s tough, no doubt, and a worry about points, Palace, Arsenal, Man U could be 7 points! Probably more 4.
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It’s tough, no doubt, and a worry about points, Palace, Arsenal, Man U could be 7 points! Probably more 4.
Probably 2.
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Lacazette hasn't scored a single away goal in the league all season.
He hasn't played away against us though.
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Lacazette hasn't scored a single away goal in the league all season.
He hasn't played away against us though.
Put 100 quid on him to score anytime then and see what happens (Aubameyang will probably score a hat trick instead so not quite win win!)
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Think I heard a stat during the Chelsea gamthat we had picked up 2 points out of a possible 45 against teams in the top ten.
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I'm worried now because I think they'll cancel the season at the drop of a hat now 'The Mighty Reds YNWA' have fulfilled their destiny. I really thought we'd have got the 3 points we needed to be out of the bottom 3 by the time that happened and everyone else has done their bit to help us, so we only have ourselves to blame if we go down now.
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isn't that always the case though? To stay up, we need to beat Wolves imo - if we do that , fragile as we are, it would give enough momentum to keep us up - just.
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We've had loads of 'must wins' and ballsed them all up. Remarkably 4 clubs seem to be doing their best to battle for 2 relegations spots, so we've still got a chance.
It seems pointless to bank on certain points from certain games as it's just a kick in the nuts waiting to happen. We just have to hope we can pull off a couple of unlikely victories somewhere along the line. Other clubs seem to manage to pull results out the bag and we've just got to find a way.
I can't see it myself, but when there's only point between us then of course we've still got a decent chance.
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For once, just once, can it be Aston Villa that get that result that makes those around us think ‘shit’? For far too long we have delivered exactly what others want from us, and the change would do us rather well.
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For once, just once, can it be Aston Villa that get that result that makes those around us think ‘shit’? For far too long we have delivered exactly what others want from us, and the change would do us rather well.
Sustaining it would be too much to hope for. I'd settle for combative and really hard working. Not picking AEG and Trezeguet might help.
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During the discussions over resuming the season, Purslow described relegation as a "£200m disaster"
If that is the case, why are he and our owners just sitting back and watching us drive at high speed towards a cliff?
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Worried? I think we are resigned.
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Think this thread can be closed to be honest
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We are definitely going. There’s no fight or quality in this team.
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Think this thread can be closed to be honest
Absolutely. I think we’ve got worse things to worry about now. Relegation is a done deal, we are now facing a complete reorganisation with the club in the hands of those least capable of doing that competently ( I don’t mean the owners).
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Anyone starting to accept the inevitable?
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Anyone starting to accept the inevitable?
Yes been there a while now. It’s quite peaceful
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During the discussions over resuming the season, Purslow described relegation as a "£200m disaster"
If that is the case, why are he and our owners just sitting back and watching us drive at high speed towards a cliff?
Purslow sticking by Smith has been such a disappointing aspect of this season. It's like we accept our fate instead of showing relegation is simply not acceptable.
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Fat lady currently clearing her throat
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Starting to question Purslow too tbh. Smith should have been potted at Christmas at the latest. To keep the club teetering on the brink with no time to save it is unforgiveable for someone in his position.
We can all see it. It's been like a slow moving car crash for months! Not even a glimmer of improvement ANYWHERE - Tactics, fitness, commitment, game management... It's all going backwards if anything!
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Starting to question Purslow too tbh. Smith should have been potted at Christmas at the latest. To keep the club teetering on the brink with no time to save it is unforgiveable for someone in his position.
We can all see it. It's been like a slow moving car crash for months! Not even a glimmer of improvement ANYWHERE - Tactics, fitness, commitment, game management... It's all going backwards if anything!
In clubs defence we did pick up after the Watford horror show. 7 points from Burnley, Watford and Brighton and also got to the couple final.
Writing was on the wall after losing to Southampton and Leicester though and I do think club would've probably sacked him if we'd lose to Chelsea in mid March. We didn't have another game for three weeks at that point.
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2 point from 12 in a 10 game curtailed season only points in one direction.
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Maybe a rename “Anyone else just resigned to the inevitable?”
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Starting to question Purslow too tbh. Smith should have been potted at Christmas at the latest. To keep the club teetering on the brink with no time to save it is unforgiveable for someone in his position.
We can all see it. It's been like a slow moving car crash for months! Not even a glimmer of improvement ANYWHERE - Tactics, fitness, commitment, game management... It's all going backwards if anything!
In clubs defence we did pick up after the Watford horror show. 7 points from Burnley, Watford and Brighton and also got to the couple final.
Writing was on the wall after losing to Southampton and Leicester though and I do think club would've probably sacked him if we'd lose to Chelsea in mid March. We didn't have another game for three weeks at that point.
The cup final was the last thing we needed. Honestly, would take having 3 extra points in the league in exchange for qualifying for the league cup final. Solidifying as a premier league club should have been the priority.
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For all his faults (and there were many), Ellis would not have allowed this situation to be prolonged - he would have fired Dean before Christmas. Not sure why Purslow and the owners are so reluctant to pull the trigger, especially given their stated goals for the club.
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Correct. Ellis would have fired him and hired someone equally as inept. Let’s not go down this path again.
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Correct. Ellis would have fired him and hired someone equally as inept. Let’s not go down this path again.
That's basically what we do now when we fire managers. It's almost as if Doug was still with us...
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The really annoying thing is that in spite of how terrible we are we don’t need much to stay up. Really any manager who could organise a team would have a chance even now. We just appear to have accepted our fate and are allowing Dean to relegate us.
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Correct. Ellis would have fired him and hired someone equally as inept. Let’s not go down this path again.
That's basically what we do now when we fire managers. It's almost as if Doug was still with us...
Ha, yeh maybe his ghost is still pulling the strings.
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I don't think Dean is inept, he got us promoted and earned the right to have a crack at the Premier League. That hasn't worked out though and he should have been removed in December when it was clear to all that it wasn't working. That fault lies at Purslow's and/or the owner's doors. Not to mention the shit-show that Suso manufactured.
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Unless Purslow picks the team and organised training and tactics of course it’s his fault!!! It’s partly his fault for not sacking Dean at Christmas, who has looked lost for most of the season.
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It all depended where Ellis went for his holidays. As of today with only UK holidays on offer he would have gone to Cornwall and come back with Colin Wanker.
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It all depended where Ellis went for his holidays. As of today with only UK holidays on offer he would have gone to Cornwall and come back with Colin Wanker.
Or my mother in law, who possibly wouldn’t do any worse.
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Maybe a rename “Anyone else just resigned to the inevitable?”
Or just ‘Anyone Not Resigned to the Inevitable?’
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Brian - Colin won a game yesterday, his first in charge for a club near relegation. We could do with some of that.
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I don’t think we will win a single game from what remains. Would make the “fight” to stay up even more laughable. So much for these “ten cup finals”
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I don’t think we will win a single game from what remains. Would make the “fight” to stay up even more laughable. So much for these “ten cup finals”
Ten 2015 FA Cup Finals.
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I would take 6 games with Colin Wanker in charge right now.
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I would take 6 games with Colin Wanker in charge right now.
Haha. Me too, mate. Anything to see our useless bunch of twats squirming a bit. They need a fucking rocket up their arses.
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My worry now is, that we will get an absolute shoeing against 'The Mighty Reds YNWA'.
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For all his faults (and there were many), Ellis would not have allowed this situation to be prolonged - he would have fired Dean before Christmas. Not sure why Purslow and the owners are so reluctant to pull the trigger, especially given their stated goals for the club.
It could be something to do with the new contract Smith was given. Smith gets until the end of the season and if we're relegated we can cut him loose easier.
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For all his faults (and there were many), Ellis would not have allowed this situation to be prolonged - he would have fired Dean before Christmas. Not sure why Purslow and the owners are so reluctant to pull the trigger, especially given their stated goals for the club.
He didn't sack Taylor.
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My worry now is, that we will get an absolute shoeing against 'The Mighty Reds YNWA'.
If Liverpool are remotely interested I think they’ll give us a belting.
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My worry now is, that we will get an absolute shoeing against 'The Mighty Reds YNWA'.
If Liverpool are remotely interested I think they’ll give us a belting.
Which like the last time we got relegated, will probably be the point where the whole lot of them down tools completely and write it off as a bad job.
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Pretty bad if we can't even reach 30 points in a premier league season.
38 was usually a sacking offence. It's what O'Leary, McLeish and Lambert all finished on in their final full seasons here.
With Watford again losing 30 points will probably be pretty close to staying up!
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Meanwhile whilst we are all staring at our shoes, feeling sorry for ourselves and looking out for our championship fixtures (me included), Watford continue to slide! 1 win in 10. Wednesday is now massive, Bournemouth must be looking at Newcastle at home as the ‘must win’ for them. We will lose at Liverpool, no doubt, but if we can get past that and Bournemouth don’t beat Newcastle, West Ham don’t beat Chelsea, this is far from over, however poor we are. If we can get past the Man Utd game only 1 or 2 points max behind those three, it really is all to play for with palace, Everton, arsenal and West Ham to come. It’s going to be who is the most shit.
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Can't say we haven't had enough chances to get out of bottom 3 in last two weeks. Watford remain 1 point above us. Chelsea away for them next. They've also still to play Man. City at home so hopefully two more losses at least for them in the run in.
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Pretty bad if we can't even reach 30 points in a premier league season.
38 was usually a sacking offence. It's what O'Leary, McLeish and Lambert all finished on in their final full seasons here.
With Watford again losing 30 points will probably be pretty close to staying up!
O'Leary got to 42 points.
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Can't say we haven't had enough chances to get out of bottom 3 in last two weeks. Watford remain 1 point above us. Chelsea away for them next. They've also still to play Man. City at home so hopefully two more losses at least for them in the run in.
Trouble is I can well see Bournemouth beating Newcastle midweek.
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My worry now is, that we will get an absolute shoeing against 'The Mighty Reds YNWA'.
If Liverpool are remotely interested I think they’ll give us a belting.
If we let them have the ball it will 5-0 to them. If we go at them and at least try, the speed in which they break it might be 5-1.
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I will be very surprised if Liverpool don't get at least 5 or 6 against us.
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Other teams continue to keep us alive.
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Can't say we haven't had enough chances to get out of bottom 3 in last two weeks. Watford remain 1 point above us. Chelsea away for them next. They've also still to play Man. City at home so hopefully two more losses at least for them in the run in.
Trouble is I can well see Bournemouth beating Newcastle midweek.
They are missing Calum Wilson who's suspended and Josh King might still be injured. Won't be many goals in that one, 0-0 could be the bet.
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I will be very surprised if Liverpool don't get at least 5 or 6 against us.
This. Confidently predicting we will have more kick offs than shots.
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I think we can all stop worrying.
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I think we can all stop worrying.
I am now worrying what the summer will bring and will the club somehow manage to make things worse.
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This is why I’ve pretty much lost faith in DS. It’s not like it’s small margins costing us either it’s errors so basic that a Sunday pub team would be embarrassed. Look at the capitulation against Arsenal, the marking at set pieces where on several occasions he’s openly admitted we got these wrong due to poor communication, the lack of possession in virtually every game we play, the consistently dreadful way we start 2nd halves, the stubborn persistence with 4-4-3 and belatedly poor use of substitutions.
People have a crack at Wesley for not getting up to speed but our poorest performer so far this season has been Dean Smith imo. He’s 2 games to save his job, I hope he still can but the time for excuses and learning from mistakes has passed.
Looking through this thread (around page 70) it’s interesting to see how this all evolved as well as posters views. My 2 games to save himself were Norwich and Watford away. That’s when he should have gone. I’m convinced it’s cost us our PL place.
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Last year, Sweet Caroline. This year Sweet F.A.
Gave up worrying about the Villa many years ago. Trying to live longer. :)
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We shouldn't worry about things that are so far out of our control, but focus on the positives
At least we don't need to play LPool and listen to their fan's trauma of a year of hurt of not winning the league for a year. bless them
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I think we can all stop worrying.
I am now worrying what the summer will bring and will the club somehow manage to make things worse.
That's a more of an annual concern.
Even if we we had finished midtable ( yes I'm getting help!), I'd still expect them to balls it up for next season. :D
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Starting to worry we have for the third time in a row managed to attract stupid owners. Stick with Smith next season and will be more worried.
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I still just want to see us win a game before the season ends and in my opinion today is probably our only chance to do it.