Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Londonvilla on March 20, 2019, 10:25:21 PM
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Are Jack Grealish and Jadon Sancho good enough to play for England? | Bellamy & Howey | The Debate
Saw this Sky debate and I still don't know why players sitting on the bench are in the squad and super Jack is not.
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Sancho easily is, guy has many assists for top 10 club in europe.
Jack will be when he's playing in the premier league every week.
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No. Both should try to find a Scottish relative and play for Scotland instead. As should Kane, Hazard and Messi.
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No. Both should try to find a Scottish relative and play for Scotland instead. As should Kane, Hazard and Messi.
Scotland would still probably leave them out in favour of Marc McNulty.
Bardsley, Matt Ritchie, Tom Cairney and Snodgrass all premier league regulars and none of them got call ups this round.
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I don't care about Sancho, Sancho don't care about me
All I care about is Super Jack and by extension, AVFC......doesn't scan does it?
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Jack is good enough for sure but he’s played 4 games in nearly 4 months. If he keeps up his form until the end of the season, he could find himself in the squad for the summer internationals which is always rife with withdrawals.
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Sancho easily is, guy has many assists for top 10 club in europe.
Jack will be when he's playing in the premier league every week.
Yes this is spot on when Jacks had a season in the PL he’ll be knocking on GS’s door demanding inclusion
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Grealish will be an England regular soon I'm sure.
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Think jack will get call for next friendly
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We all know Jack is good enough, but for now lets not risk him for England, Villa comes first, at least for the next 8-11 games and his destiny. :)
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Sancho, yes
Jack, no
Whilst Grealish is great for Villa (albeit in the 2nd Division), I just don't see him as an international player at the moment.
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I think you may be too critical of him, possibly because he’s Villa (none of us want one of our players selected and found out at a higher level).
Reckon he what it takes though, hopefully he’ll still be a villa player when he’s in the England squad regularly.
He is a quality player and should get a chance to mix with and test himself against the best in the England setup
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He's not proven against top class players yet. When he does play against them, he'll be in.
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Jack is good enough for sure but he’s played 4 games in nearly 4 months. If he keeps up his form until the end of the season, he could find himself in the squad for the summer internationals which is always rife with withdrawals.
They are normally, but this year's a bit different, there's a trophy to be won. The UEFA Nations League, yes I know it's a crap trophy, but England will take any trophy, they haven't won one for 53 years. So Jack might have to wait a bit longer.
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Jack is good enough for sure but he’s played 4 games in nearly 4 months. If he keeps up his form until the end of the season, he could find himself in the squad for the summer internationals which is always rife with withdrawals.
They are normally, but this year's a bit different, there's a trophy to be won. The UEFA Nations League, yes I know it's a crap trophy, but England will take any trophy, they haven't won one for 53 years. So Jack might have to wait a bit longer.
Ah, of course. Maybe the September games when he will more than likely be a premier league player anyway.
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the questions a no brainer
'Is the best player in the world good enough to play for England' (and I don't mean Sancho)
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No. That Grealish is rubbish. Over-rated. Hyped-up.
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I don't think either of them would look out of place in an England shirt. I would guess Sancho will soon get his chance but I doubt Jack will due to him currently playing in the Championship.
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Butland has been selected so playing in the Championship isn't a barrier to Southgates England squad. I also don't like the insinuation from Bellamy that Jack would be in the squad by now "if he'd got his move in the summer"...if Jack hadn't been injured for the last 3 months and was playing consistently as he is now, then I would make the counter claim that he would have been selected.
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Sancho easily is, guy has many assists for top 10 club in europe.
Jack will be when he's playing in the premier league every week.
It's daft how someone like Grealish would be excluded on the grounds that he isn't an EPL regular, which appears to be the case.
I'm sure he would stand out at a Huddersfield or Cardiff currently but would that make him a better player? What about the pressure he has been under to perform at the most under achieving club in Europe over the past 18 months?
I don't see the comparison really to Taarabt, Knockaert or others that have struggled to make the step up.
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Playing against Championship opponents understandably isn’t helping his cause. He has to do it at the top level. If we go up and he shows anything like the form he shows for us now Southgate will pick him immediately because currently the country has nobody that plays like him.
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Jack is good enough for sure but he’s played 4 games in nearly 4 months.
Even with my Villa specs firmly on this is still the correct answer.
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Grealish is too good for England.
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I actually think Jack will shine even more at a higher level. He gets lumps kicked out of him every week in this shitty division with its tin-pot refereeing, and is still the best player on the park by a country mile every time. With a bit more protection, he'll make better defenders look like chumps too.
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Sancho is good enough, no question.
As for Grealish, England have plenty of hard working runners in midfield but not many playmaker types who can create chances or take defenders on through the middle. He can be that guy but needs to be playing and producing in the PL. Has the potential to do it and there really isn't too many other options for that type of player.
And frankly, seeing as Southgate has picked the likes of Jake Livermore, Lewis Cook, Nathan Redmond and Jack Cork for England's midfield then I can't see why Grealish can't get in. He has more talent than any of them. The only thing I can see that they have over him is PL football.
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Yes, but I am more than happy that Jack is being overlooked this season
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I actually think Jack will shine even more at a higher level. He gets lumps kicked out of him every week in this shitty division with its tin-pot refereeing, and is still the best player on the park by a country mile every time. With a bit more protection, he'll make better defenders look like chumps too.
Agreed 100%, no way premeditated assaults like that Blues thug (Not the "zulu") did in the derby get tolerated in the top division. A week later the Forest centre half tried to literally kick him into the stand aswell. The days of a Roy Keane kicking everything that moves in the top division or champions league are long gone. But it's nearly very game at our level these hackers try and do him.
He would walk into that Liverpool midfield chasing the title right now, or at the very worst be ahead of Shaqiri or Lallana as first sub in.
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He proved he can play at a high level in the semi v Liverpool.
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He was also brilliant in the game against Everton.
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Jack is good enough for sure but he’s played 4 games in nearly 4 months.
Even with my Villa specs firmly on this is still the correct answer.
And Hudson-Odoi has played two games about 2 years.
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There is no doubt that Jack has the talent to play for England, however...
Hudson-Odoi is a striker which has limited options for England. Jack plays in midfield where there are numerous options for Southgate.
We also have to also if Jack would suit the style of play and fit in automatically or would Southgate need to change the style of play to accommodate him?
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Jordan Sancho is very good enough to play for England.
If Grealish had to leave he should go to Munich or Dortmund.
Dele Ali and Ross Barkley would have been positions Grealish play for England v Czech.
Dele Ali likes to get beyond( like lingard ) Ross Barkley would be the comparable for his role yesterday . Squad wise look at Ward-Prowse like an English Conor Hourihane doesn't have much in his locker apart from ball striking I certainly have Grealish in squad ahead of him .
Ward prowse is a Southgate man and Gareth knows him and worked with him at under 21 so trusts him. Likes to honor those who are performing so fair do to him .
Even if Grealish was in the squad pitch time at this moment though would be limiting .
However in answer to question I say yes he is good enough to play for England .
And would be good enough in qualifications against top opposition like a lot of England players we have to wait and see on that .
Think next couple of years are big for him for 2020 is a target .
Tom Carrol and Ward-Prowse are same age I believe and were under 21s in 2013 .
Grealish at 26 needs to be higher level than either and I think has capability to do so - that being champions league club and squad or being top performer with villa in a challenging and competitive Aston villa in prem by 2020
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Jack is 23.
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Hudson-Odoi is a striker which has limited options for England. Jack plays in midfield where there are numerous options for Southgate.
Hudson Odoi is a winger.
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Jack is 23.
What I mean is when he's 26 !! Obviously !
And that ward prowse and Carroll are 26 and look at them ! Neither top end !
But Grealish at that age has capability and be showing then how good he is
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Hudson-Odoi is a striker which has limited options for England. Jack plays in midfield where there are numerous options for Southgate.
Hudson Odoi is a winger.
Fair enough. I don't think many of us have seen enough of him to know where he plays or his best position...yet he's been selected for England. From what I have seen of him though, I think he has the makings of a good centre forward.
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I think the Odoi and Rice sub appearances were more about locking them into England. Odoi had been linked with an African nation, not anymore.
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Baring injury ive absolutely no doubts anymore that Jack will be an England regular and a top Premier League player at 26. Just not sure it’ll be with us.
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Cheers Gareth!
Gareth Southgate says Aston Villa midfielder Jack Grealish must be playing in the Premier League before he can be considered for an England call-up.
Grealish switched allegiances from the Republic of Ireland to England in 2015, and has won seven caps for England U21s.
However, he has not made the step up into the senior side and last played in the Premier League in 2016, when Villa were relegated to the Championship.
Grealish has been in good form for Villa since returning from injury earlier this month, but Southgate said: "Jack worked with us in the U21s briefly.
"Although we can see the quality, when the evidence of the opponent is a different level, that's where it's hard to directly correlate what that's going to look like at a level above.
"With Callum [Hudson-Odoi], he's playing Europa League, he's playing Premier League - that does make a difference.
"I'm not going to say we won't pick a player from the Championship because that could happen but it's far more difficult to assess his level.
Grealish has two goals in seven games for England U21s
"You see certain parts of the game but not others [in the Championship]. Not the physicality at times, nor the tactical discipline. That's another level in the Premier League - the speed, the pace.
"He's a player we know all about, he's a player we track, but that last bit of evidence that could give you confidence to pick him at the moment we won't see.
"But as an ex-Villa man I hope it's not too long before we do see it."
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/12016/11674073/gareth-southgate-says-jack-grealish-must-play-in-the-premier-league-to-earn-england-call-up
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Cheers Gareth!
Gareth Southgate says Aston Villa midfielder Jack Grealish must be playing in the Premier League before he can be considered for an England call-up.
Grealish switched allegiances from the Republic of Ireland to England in 2015, and has won seven caps for England U21s.
However, he has not made the step up into the senior side and last played in the Premier League in 2016, when Villa were relegated to the Championship.
Grealish has been in good form for Villa since returning from injury earlier this month, but Southgate said: "Jack worked with us in the U21s briefly.
"Although we can see the quality, when the evidence of the opponent is a different level, that's where it's hard to directly correlate what that's going to look like at a level above.
"With Callum [Hudson-Odoi], he's playing Europa League, he's playing Premier League - that does make a difference.
"I'm not going to say we won't pick a player from the Championship because that could happen but it's far more difficult to assess his level.
Grealish has two goals in seven games for England U21s
"You see certain parts of the game but not others [in the Championship]. Not the physicality at times, nor the tactical discipline. That's another level in the Premier League - the speed, the pace.
"He's a player we know all about, he's a player we track, but that last bit of evidence that could give you confidence to pick him at the moment we won't see.
"But as an ex-Villa man I hope it's not too long before we do see it."
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/12016/11674073/gareth-southgate-says-jack-grealish-must-play-in-the-premier-league-to-earn-england-call-up (https://www.skysports.com/football/news/12016/11674073/gareth-southgate-says-jack-grealish-must-play-in-the-premier-league-to-earn-england-call-up)
That seems entirely reasonable.
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Seems a good article by Southgate but I genuinely believe QPRs defence is more organised than the Czech Republic’s was the other night.
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Southgate to manage the Villa one day.
I said it in past before his England recognized him . Man is a class act, football intelligence , progressive and a credit to those who identify as English and a true professional.
If any one has any stories or encounters of him personally would love it to be shared on here.
It's very good to see Southgate do so well and I'm sure he has a super respect for villa.
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Southgate to manage the Villa one day.
I said it in past before his England recognized him . Man is a class act, football intelligence , progressive and a credit to those who identify as English and a true professional.
If any one has any stories or encounters of him personally would love it to be shared on here.
It's very good to see Southgate do so well and I'm sure he has a super respect for villa.
I remember one game at Villa Park when he was manager of the Smog Monsters. Surpassed anything perpetrated by Pulis or Bent Fat Sam.
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They’re debating Jack and England on TS right now. About whether he should have been picked despite playing in the Championship. Some of the Villa fans who are calling in are such bell ends. Instead of making the point that he’s a very different type of player to what England has or discussing his very unique technique or how he opens up the game for others and dictates the pace of the game you’re getting nonsense like he should be in because he’s better than Dele Alli.
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It was good that they got an incredulous TS response though, how dare Villa fans compare Alli to Grealish. TS is fucking crap and they forget when Alli came from and that Jack is still on the way up.
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It was good that they got an incredulous TS response though, how dare Villa fans compare Alli to Grealish. TS is fucking crap.
I’m sorry but it’s bloody daft. I’m as Villa as anyone but that kind of position is never going to get anything but ridicule in the national media. And frankly they weren’t disrespectful to the caller rather just suggested he was a bit off base but entitled to his opinion.
Dele Alli plays for England and a top 6 team and has played very well in the top flight, in the CL and for England over several seasons. Love Grealish but he is a long, long way from that. And maybe he’ll get there one day but when the calls are about should Jack get a call up and then some numpty says he’s better than Alli it details the legitimacy of the conversation.
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It was good that they got an incredulous TS response though, how dare Villa fans compare Alli to Grealish. TS is fucking crap.
I’m sorry but it’s bloody daft. I’m as Villa as anyone but that kind of position is never going to get anything but ridicule in the national media. And frankly they weren’t disrespectful to the caller rather just suggested he was a bit off base but entitled to his opinion.
Dele Alli plays for England and a top 6 team and has played very well in the top flight, in the CL and for England over several seasons. Love Grealish but he is a long, long way from that. And maybe he’ll get there one day but when the calls are about should Jack get a call up and then some numpty says he’s better than Alli it details the legitimacy of the conversation.
Interesting Ali went from playing in an average Milton Keynes side to playing champions league football and starring for England. You could argue that the step up for Jack would not as great as it was for Ali.
For me Jack would be competing with Barkley and Ali for a starting position and I would argue that Ali is a better finisher but Jack is more creative, a better tackler, and a better dribbler. For me, I would easily be starting him ahead of Barkley
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Grealish is as important to Villa as Alli is to Spurs. Grealish is on the way up, Alli is already there. If a Prem team buys Jack, he will also be there, very quickly, as he is different to any other midfielder we have playing for England. By the way, rather than piss Villa fans off, again, Southgate should see this as a challenge and invite Jack to train with England and take on the challenge of making him a better player.
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Grealish is on the way up, Alli is already there.
Not only is Alli already there , he's been there for a considerable amount of time & he's younger than Jack
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Grealish is as important to Villa as Alli is to Spurs. Grealish is on the way up, Alli is already there. If a Prem team buys Jack, he will also be there, very quickly, as he is different to any other midfielder we have playing for England. By the way, rather than piss Villa fans off, again, Southgate should see this as a challenge and invite Jack to train with England and take on the challenge of making him a better player.
I don’t get it though. Why as a Villa fan would you be pissed off that Jack didn’t get called up? If he carries on performing he’ll be noticed. If we go up Jack will have played a massive role in that and he can prove himself next season on the higher stage.
Southgate has proven he will give young players a chance and we are now watching the best England side and squad since 1996. A squad that has a legitimate chance of winning the next major tournament. In the grand scheme of things I really only care about us so like McGinn if they are doing it for us and not country...well so be it. And actually I think Jack will be in the U23 tournament in the summer for England.
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It's hardly a shock a second division player hasn't been picked, pretty sure only 4 in about 20 years have received their squad England debuts as a second division player.
The 4 are Mount, Nugent, Zaha and Bothroyd.
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It was good that they got an incredulous TS response though, how dare Villa fans compare Alli to Grealish. TS is fucking crap.
I’m sorry but it’s bloody daft. I’m as Villa as anyone but that kind of position is never going to get anything but ridicule in the national media. And frankly they weren’t disrespectful to the caller rather just suggested he was a bit off base but entitled to his opinion.
Dele Alli plays for England and a top 6 team and has played very well in the top flight, in the CL and for England over several seasons. Love Grealish but he is a long, long way from that. And maybe he’ll get there one day but when the calls are about should Jack get a call up and then some numpty says he’s better than Alli it details the legitimacy of the conversation.
Interesting Ali went from playing in an average Milton Keynes side to playing champions league football and starring for England. You could argue that the step up for Jack would not as great as it was for Ali.
For me Jack would be competing with Barkley and Ali for a starting position and I would argue that Ali is a better finisher but Jack is more creative, a better tackler, and a better dribbler. For me, I would easily be starting him ahead of Barkley
So Barkley scores 2 goals for England shows how little I know about football....Lol
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Jack will play for England sooner or later. I'd prefer he does it when he has more top flight experience. He has to demonstrate he's as good as or better than players already in the team. But he's certainly on the radar.
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I'm delighted he's not being picked...never does us any good when our players go off to play for England!!
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Mason mount was picked and invited to train with England end of last year for the nations league tournament and he had been representing championship level
I don't know if difference here is the age as Mount is a few years younger.
Grealish is technically good enough however the squad is competitive and I think Southgate hasn't worked as much with Grealish and having been involved with Ireland hasn't had the same coaching all way through England set up like other players they want to progress .Feel it's different with Rice for example due to the respective positions . Grealish position may be something Southgate isn't wanting a focus on and trying to incorporate him into a team would be difficult ?! Maybe?
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He'd been playing in the Eredivisie last season and he was invited to train with England before the World Cup on the back of his performances in Holland.
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He'd been playing in the Eredivisie last season and he was invited to train with England before the World Cup on the back of his performances in Holland.
This is where things get messy, is the eredivisie a better standard than the championship, I'm really not sure it is outside the top 3-4 sides, much like the Scottish, Belgian and Portuguese leagues, France isn't all that far ahead either.
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He'd been playing in the Eredivisie last season and he was invited to train with England before the World Cup on the back of his performances in Holland.
This is where things get messy, is the eredivisie a better standard than the championship, I'm really not sure it is outside the top 3-4 sides, much like the Scottish, Belgian and Portuguese leagues, France isn't all that far ahead either.
Yet most of the time since we've been in the Championship H&V has been full of comments about how piss poor the standard is. It's said virtually every week, regardless of who we play or how we do. If that's truly the case then of course Jack looks superior.
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He'd been playing in the Eredivisie last season and he was invited to train with England before the World Cup on the back of his performances in Holland.
This is where things get messy, is the eredivisie a better standard than the championship, I'm really not sure it is outside the top 3-4 sides, much like the Scottish, Belgian and Portuguese leagues, France isn't all that far ahead either.
Yet most of the time since we've been in the Championship H&V has been full of comments about how piss poor the standard is. It's said virtually every week, regardless of who we play or how we do. If that's truly the case then of course Jack looks superior.
I don't think those 2 things are mutually exclusive. The standard of technique in the championship is pretty low but it's played at a really high tempo, so players with pace/strength/fitness and a decent ability to read the game, in a well organised unit, can be successful. In leagues like Portugal, Netherlands, Belgium, etc there's more technical ability but that's largely because the game is slower so the physical aspects are less decisive.
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He'd been playing in the Eredivisie last season and he was invited to train with England before the World Cup on the back of his performances in Holland.
This is where things get messy, is the eredivisie a better standard than the championship, I'm really not sure it is outside the top 3-4 sides, much like the Scottish, Belgian and Portuguese leagues, France isn't all that far ahead either.
Yet most of the time since we've been in the Championship H&V has been full of comments about how piss poor the standard is. It's said virtually every week, regardless of who we play or how we do. If that's truly the case then of course Jack looks superior.
I don't think those 2 things are mutually exclusive. The standard of technique in the championship is pretty low but it's played at a really high tempo, so players with pace/strength/fitness and a decent ability to read the game, in a well organised unit, can be successful. In leagues like Portugal, Netherlands, Belgium, etc there's more technical ability but that's largely because the game is slower so the physical aspects are less decisive.
The facts are that he was playing in the championship and doing well.
Point taken about the Dutch courage