Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: kippaxvilla2 on December 27, 2017, 01:48:48 PM
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For too many years now we have employed managers for short term fix aims. Whether it be to simply survive in the PL or employing the latest cliched experienced at this level so called promotion specialist.
I’m coming to the view that we should look at the long term now. Bring someone in that can create a proper footballing philosophy and only bring in players that will fit round that not the other way round. This also means that we should be using these players alongside the young talent at our disposal. I’m not saying ditch promotion if that comes as part of this quickly then great.
Step forward Dean Smith. Give the bloke proper time if not the same monetary resources and allow him to build something. Last time we did this it worked with a certain Saunders bloke.
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We should've gone down the rebuild from top to bottom route the moment we got relegated.
That said, none of us were moaning when we spent big. The absolute desperation to get back up straight away has left us years off actually achieving it IMHO.
Putting a solid structure and playing style in place and seeing it through how ever long it took would've been far wiser than attempting a quick patch up job on a completely broken club.
IMHO at least
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I said my piece on 'Bruce Out' but totally agree. I still believe a foreign coach is the best option as building a style of play is their bread and butter.
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I agree with the general train of thought, but think if we don't go up in the summer then it is the time to be looking at that kind of approach. We still have a decent chance of going up this season if we can get the current squad performing and add a few decent signings next month. Whether Bruce is the man to do that is highly questionable.
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We should've gone down the rebuild from top to bottom route the moment we got relegated.
That said, none of us were moaning when we spent big. The absolute desperation to get back up straight away has left us years off actually achieving it IMHO.
Putting a solid structure and playing style in place and seeing it through how ever long it took would've been far wiser than attempting a quick patch up job on a completely broken club.
IMHO at least
I think RDM actually did start going in the right direction, he just under-estimated how big the job was and got his choices wrong in the centre of midfield. The real mistake was to move away from that so quickly to someone who wanted to do the same things that Lambert, etc had been doing for a few years before we were relegated. The desperation that led to Bruce is what fucked us up. It's not even about what I think of Bruce, it's that he's from the school of thought that saw us signing people like Richardson, Richards, Cole, Lescott, etc and that was at the heart of our fall.
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I'd happily see Dean Smith replace Bruce.
The sentiment of a long term manager is a nice one, but I don't think it's the reality of football.
Clubs just need to hire a good one. If they succeed, expect them to move on.
We've not managed to hire one since Martin O'Neill, although, I guess it could be said he started this.
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I'd happily see Dean Smith replace Bruce.
The sentiment of a long term manager is a nice one, but I don't think it's the reality of football.
Clubs just need to hire a good one. If they succeed, expect them to move on.
We've not managed to hire one since Martin O'Neill, although, I guess it could be said he started this.
That is why you need the Club to dictate the philosophy and appoint a succession of coaches/managers that deliver on it. Otherwise you end up spending an absolute fortune on players.
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I was all for that process under RDM so bring it on i say. If we can put up with a season or so of crap or indifferent results, then do it if the end result is a proper long term strategy. I've always felt we've overestimated the players in our squad and unfortunately that led to unrealistic expectations. Under Houllier it was "we finished in the top 6 last season", then it was "we're a decent mid-table team" when we were flirting with relegation, then it was "this squad should walk the championship" after we came down. End of the day with a few exceptions we've sold our best players and bought worse replacements for them for donkey's years and that's what has got to change. Looking at the current squad, a decent manager shouldn't find that too hard to do.
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We should've gone down the rebuild from top to bottom route the moment we got relegated.
That said, none of us were moaning when we spent big. The absolute desperation to get back up straight away has left us years off actually achieving it IMHO.
Putting a solid structure and playing style in place and seeing it through how ever long it took would've been far wiser than attempting a quick patch up job on a completely broken club.
IMHO at least
I think RDM actually did start going in the right direction, he just under-estimated how big the job was and got his choices wrong in the centre of midfield. The real mistake was to move away from that so quickly to someone who wanted to do the same things that Lambert, etc had been doing for a few years before we were relegated. The desperation that led to Bruce is what fucked us up. It's not even about what I think of Bruce, it's that he's from the school of thought that saw us signing people like Richardson, Richards, Cole, Lescott, etc and that was at the heart of our fall.
Not sure about that Paul when you look at the signings RDM made. I think the ethos was to sign proven players at that level to try and get us straight back up and that was understandable at the time. Bruce has followed that philosophy and if we don't make it up this season it will be time for a total re-think.
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When we were relegated, I commented that we needed a clear out of "biblical enema" proportions, and was ridiculed by some who continue to wear "claret and blue" tinted glasses. We had six years of abject dross before we finally fell through the trapdoor into the Championship. We are now 1/3 of the way through what is looking like the same. Not only do we need to get rid of a load of old, slow, overpaid, "experienced" players, we need to clear out BH and start again, a la Vic Crowe, and DO IT NOW!!
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We should've gone down the rebuild from top to bottom route the moment we got relegated.
That said, none of us were moaning when we spent big. The absolute desperation to get back up straight away has left us years off actually achieving it IMHO.
Putting a solid structure and playing style in place and seeing it through how ever long it took would've been far wiser than attempting a quick patch up job on a completely broken club.
IMHO at least
I think RDM actually did start going in the right direction, he just under-estimated how big the job was and got his choices wrong in the centre of midfield. The real mistake was to move away from that so quickly to someone who wanted to do the same things that Lambert, etc had been doing for a few years before we were relegated. The desperation that led to Bruce is what fucked us up. It's not even about what I think of Bruce, it's that he's from the school of thought that saw us signing people like Richardson, Richards, Cole, Lescott, etc and that was at the heart of our fall.
I don’t know if he did Paul given the types of signings he made. It certainly wasn’t all his fault because he was given an objective and resources to meet that objective. We went for broke trying to get straight back up but there was too much to fix, too much structurally wrong at the club to turn it around so quickly. Newcastle by comparison while they had their own issues, they came down with a better squad, didn’t make a ton of changes and critically had a top class manager already in place to oversee a project he’d already started.
There was also our urgency as fans to see a quick return so we weren’t against the notion of getting in big name signings to aid that cause. If we really were going to take the long term approach we shouldn’t have signed the likes of McCormack or Elphick or Chester. And we shouldn’t have appointed RDM really. Instead gone for a Dyche or Wagner and told him to build us from the ground up. But that’s not realistic given our size and history and pride.
We are almost now forced into that direction. And the likes of Dyche or Wagner are probably out of our reach now given where they are in their careers. So we have to find the next one, blow up the squad especially the older players on short term deals and almost start from scratch.
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yeah but look at the players on long contracts. It's bloody scary really. Whelan till he's 35, Jedinak till he's 34, Bjarnson till he's 32, Lansbury, Elmo. It's like a retirement home for old footballers. I mean even a lot of the moneybags teams in the premiership have a policy of not offering more than a year to players over 30.
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Not sure if we need to expand the stadium on current form.
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We should've gone down the rebuild from top to bottom route the moment we got relegated.
That said, none of us were moaning when we spent big. The absolute desperation to get back up straight away has left us years off actually achieving it IMHO.
Putting a solid structure and playing style in place and seeing it through how ever long it took would've been far wiser than attempting a quick patch up job on a completely broken club.
IMHO at least
I think RDM actually did start going in the right direction, he just under-estimated how big the job was and got his choices wrong in the centre of midfield. The real mistake was to move away from that so quickly to someone who wanted to do the same things that Lambert, etc had been doing for a few years before we were relegated. The desperation that led to Bruce is what fucked us up. It's not even about what I think of Bruce, it's that he's from the school of thought that saw us signing people like Richardson, Richards, Cole, Lescott, etc and that was at the heart of our fall.
Not sure about that Paul when you look at the signings RDM made. I think the ethos was to sign proven players at that level to try and get us straight back up and that was understandable at the time. Bruce has followed that philosophy and if we don't make it up this season it will be time for a total re-think.
I think he got 2 badly wrong (Elphick and McCormack) and a couple who were young players that didn't step up as he hoped (Tish and Gollini). After that you had DeLaet who was really unlucky to get injured, Chester, Kodjia and Adomah who have all been very good and Jedinak who had a great season last year. Most of them weren't signings for the future but the idea was to get guys of the right age and experience that could give us a few years whilst the younger players were built up around them.
Bruce did follow that in Jan, he just didn't do it with any finesse, Bjarnason was pointless, Hogan was ill-thought, Lansbury or Hourihane would've been fine but not both and Taylor was ok but always looked like a very limited player. Johnstone was a good signing and Bree/Bedeau are for the future so I'm ok with those 3. In the summer though he just lost the plot and signed a bunch of old men when what we really needed was energy and mobility. He did, eventually, realise what a mess he'd made and bring in Onomah on loan but it was far too late by then and he's compounded it by not playing him as a box-to-box midfielder.
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What’s the latest on the ‘Villa Engine'?
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What’s the latest on the ‘Villa Engine'?
The mechanic didn't know how to change the oil.
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What’s the latest on the ‘Villa Engine'?
The mechanic didn't know how to change the oil.
Nor get the fkn thing started.
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What’s the latest on the ‘Villa Engine'?
The mechanic didn't know how to change the oil.
Nor get the fkn thing started.
What’s the latest on the ‘Villa Engine'?
The mechanic didn't know how to change the oil.
Nor get the fkn thing started.
The bloke who came up with this bollocks is the one that would be responsible for the rebuilding.
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What’s the latest on the ‘Villa Engine'?
Someone put diesel in it and now it's ruined
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What’s the latest on the ‘Villa Engine'?
It's a solar powered engine so is always going to struggle in the winter months.
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It’s electric. And doesn’t work on boxing days when Asda is closed for charging it up.
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What’s the latest on the ‘Villa Engine'?
Ask the African reverser
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Dekcuf si ti. Yrros.
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I genuinely thought Clarke and RDM would be catalyst for meaningful and long-term change.
This current guy was a retrograde step following the RDM crash-and-burn experiment.
After RDM, I'd have gone for Warburton who was at Rangers at the time.
Now, I think it has to be someone like Koeman or de Boer: both have experience of working in clubs where the academy is taken seriously and seen as a genuine feeder for the first-team squad; both are 'serious' candidates; both see beyond the narrow confines of the English game; both will bring some gravitas to the role and have credibility within the club.
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O thought that was what Wyness was doing being as he's a football man
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It’s Pining for The fjords.
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Have Clarke or Di Matteo given any interviews since they left with insight into their time at the club? Would be interesting to hear what they thought.
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I heard only one second hand story that RDM did not mind being sacked.
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Already covered in the FFP thread but that will really bite us hand in the summer if we don't go up and we will have to sell key players.
Think we'll have no choice but to appoint a long term outlook manager, certainly won't have the resources to get another quick fix, chequebook manager.
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I agree with the general train of thought, but think if we don't go up in the summer then it is the time to be looking at that kind of approach. We still have a decent chance of going up this season if we can get the current squad performing and add a few decent signings next month. Whether Bruce is the man to do that is highly questionable.
Agree for the most part.
But say we muster one point or less from Boro away and Bristol at home (not an unthinkable sequence of results) and we could be seven points off the play-offs. That might just be enough to force the issue this season.
Automatic looks as good as gone. To get automatic, you might be able to withstand a bad result here and there. But not a bad run. And not two -as we are enduring once again. Any side would miss their best forward and best centre half. But the money he has had available in terms of transfer fees and wages should mean we are better able than most in this league to counter that sort of setback. If we look like we're struggling to even be in contention for the play-offs, Xia, Wyness and co have to make him walk the plank.
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I forgot (how could I) about SGT rebuilding us although arguable that he didn’t complete the job before he left the first time.
The kind of person we must look for doesn’t:
1. Think Gabby is just the sort of player we could do with ‘if he gets himself right.’
2. Think Micah Richards would be in the team if ‘he gets himself right.’
3. Haul off Robert Snodgrass for tactical reasons and then has him as the first name on the team sheet next game.
4. Put Josh Onomah up front when we have a ten goal winger playing behind him.
5. Have Christopher Samba as main back up to 36 year old John Terry at the centre of defence.
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I think you're over complicating a simple game.
You need a plan. It need not be extravagant to execute in an effective way.
We have suffered as too many managers of late have lacked a plan. Only O'Neill and Tim to an extent had an idea of how we were to attack.
Pace, early ball out wide, quality of delivery, height and percentage football from set pieces (how many free kicks did Stan and Barry's arses win; arse out, fall over, Young whips in and He Who is Bigger than Me or You nods home.)
Sherwood was found out pretty sharpish, but he recognised we needed to get it into Benteke as fast as possible, plenty of pace and flooding numbers forward.
Bruce, Garde, RDM, SM MkI and MkII...I saw every horrible game and I couldn't tell you how we set up to break down the opposition. Lambert stumbled on 433 for a time.
You need an idea and you need to recruit to execute it. We have ball players, not a lot of pace, a couple of very physically imposing young lads and some qucik full backs which means we ought to be able to peg possession quite high territorially.
We don't and we amble. A decent manager with a plan may well be able to deliver something.
Money and a plan. The club needed investment at every facet and it now has that. It has a lot of good players for this level the issue is we scoop them up, shake them about and drop them onto the pitch expecting results.
We need a coach. SHQ is right.
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I think you're over complicating a simple game.
You need a plan. It need not be extravagant to execute in an effective way.
We have suffered as too many managers of late have lacked a plan. Only O'Neill and Tim to an extent had an idea of how we were to attack.
Pace, early ball out wide, quality of delivery, height and percentage football from set pieces (how many free kicks did Stan and Barry's arses win; arse out, fall over, Young whips in and He Who is Bigger than Me or You nods home.)
Sherwood was found out pretty sharpish, but he recognised we needed to get it into Benteke as fast as possible, plenty of pace and flooding numbers forward.
Bruce, Garde, RDM, SM MkI and MkII...I saw every horrible game and I couldn't tell you how we set up to break down the opposition. Lambert stumbled on 433 for a time.
You need an idea and you need to recruit to execute it. We have ball players, not a lot of pace, a couple of very physically imposing young lads and some qucik full backs which means we ought to be able to peg possession quite high territorially.
We don't and we amble. A decent manager with a plan may well be able to deliver something.
Money and a plan. The club needed investment at every facet and it now has that. It has a lot of good players for this level the issue is we scoop them up, shake them about and drop them onto the pitch expecting results.
We need a coach. SHQ is right.
The penny finally dropped, was last night the turning point?
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No need for that, is there?
Ads has said on a few threads he's had enough.
Most of us try to give a manager a chance -even though the statistics show 99.9% of them will ultimately fail.
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No need for that, is there?
Ads has said on a few threads he's had enough.
Most of us try to give a manager a chance -even though the statistics show 99.9% of them will ultimately fail.
Has he?
Having spent the season attacking any one who dared criticise Bruce, maybe the apology got lost in the post.
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Maybe the final warning you received also got post in the post? Knock off acting like your gloating or you won't be posting here again.
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No need for that, is there?
Ads has said on a few threads he's had enough.
Most of us try to give a manager a chance -even though the statistics show 99.9% of them will ultimately fail.
Has he?
Having spent the season attacking any one who dared criticise Bruce, maybe the apology got lost in the post.
Yes he has. You’re intentionally being antagonistic yet again. He had every right to have his opinion on Bruce. And it’s changed as is his right.
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Messageboard? I have disagreed with Ads about Bruce and plenty of other things, I'm sure. Never felt I needed redress though.
Good luck with the apology.
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Maybe the final warning you received also got post in the post? Knock off acting like your gloating or you won't be posting here again.
Sorry, I did not see the final warning.
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What’s the latest on the ‘Villa Engine'?
It’s took December off
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I want Bruce to succeed I still think he might do. However how anyone can continually make the same mistakes and be paid for it is beyond the wit of many a person.
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What’s the latest on the ‘Villa Engine'?
It’s took December off
Throw in the guy who has been twiddling his fingers on gardening leave from Middlesvilla for half a year and see what happens. Maybe he has an idea how to assemble this collection of players together. Laughable.
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Bruce gambled big last summer knowing if we didn't get promoted he would be out. His gamble was to load up on tried and tested players that have played at top level but who are past their best. The gamble has failed we have a team of slow ageing players with a sprinkle of youth rather that the other way round. Forced to play Davis who in his first few games was a breath of fresh air it should have given Bruce the encouragement to give other young players their chance most managers would have but Bruce is far to conservative he falls back on the likes of Gabby and other players who WE know should never see the first team squad. I watch the premiership and realise it is a different game entirely, we long to be there but if we did sneak in and win the play offs it would be a very difficult assignment to keep us there.
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What’s the latest on the ‘Villa Engine'?
It’s took December off
Throw in the guy who has been twiddling his fingers on gardening leave from Middlesvilla for half a year and see what happens. Maybe he has an idea how to assemble this collection of players together. Laughable.
Interesting that Pulis didn’t try and keep him.
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Pulis didn't have the chance to as Agnew was already with us before Monk was sacked.
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I’d say Monks future was already decided though given that they won and he still got true bullet. All speculation of course.
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We should have been braver as a club as soon as we were relegated, it was the perfect opportunity to begin fixing the club root and branch. We've gone for the 'get up at any cost' method and it doesn't seem to have worked. Rebuilding everything now could see us stop in this division for a while now I think, which is criminally bad for Aston Villa.
I hate to sound so pessimistic but even if we did make the playoffs and somehow win them, this squad wouldn't fare well in the top flight. It's old, slow, barely any ideas or ingenuity. Painful stuff.
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Exactly this!! Been raving about this approach for far too long. We need to think bigger than just today.
Jokanovic and Smith would work great with our squad and tighter budgets
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I think it's much easier to say in hindsight that we should've rebuilt from the foundations when we went down, although I suppose a big part of it comes down to the manner in which that happens. Remember, there was some serious skepticism about Dr Tony at the time of the sale, so just imagine if there had been some hitches in executing the first few steps of an overhaul - say, for example, we cleared out the majority of the squad (which did end up happening, eventually), but didn't quite sign as many players as would've been preferable/planned. In that scenario, I'm certain there would've been a lot of people freaking out about the new owner being a conman and the like, which wouldn't have helped things at all.
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Given the downward momentum that was around at the time of relegation, we could have gone down another division if we had taken the time to do things properly. Sadly I think we did what was necessary. The club seems to be in much better shape now, it's just FFP that's making things difficult. If we don't get promoted this season, and it seems we're going to be depending on a run at the play-offs, I think Bruce will be gone and then it will be interesting to see what approach the club goes for. If it comes to that, I hope we're more imaginative.
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I think you're right that it's easy to say in hindsight but I seem to remember a quiet air of optimism amongst fans that we could take the opportunity to really rebuild Villa. I certainly was hoping for this, at least. In fairness to Villa, I think the whole club was at sixes and sevens with the takeover so it must have been crazy to get even the basics done.
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I agree with the last three posts. It’s briliant in hindsight to say we should have done this or that. We were a basket case when we came down. 7 years of misery ending in a disastrous campaign and relegation. Throw in a new owner, new board etc it’s hard to truly appreciate what they walked in on. The players were piss takers or disillusioned. They brought in a manager who had played at a very high level, manager in the PL, won the CL (for what it’s worth) but also brought a dysfunctional Albion team back up at the first attempt. I get why they might have picked him over long term options.
It’s easy to say we should have got an up and coming manager and told him he’s got 5 years to fix it. But as fans after that much misery none of us would have stood for that. The last thing we would have wanted to accept at that time was that we could be in the division for 2 or 3 years rebuilding. Ironically it’s now what we might need to do.
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What’s the latest on the ‘Villa Engine'?
It’s took December off
it's like me after xmas pissed and broke
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For too many years now we have employed managers for short term fix aims. Whether it be to simply survive in the PL or employing the latest cliched experienced at this level so called promotion specialist.
I’m coming to the view that we should look at the long term now. Bring someone in that can create a proper footballing philosophy and only bring in players that will fit round that not the other way round. This also means that we should be using these players alongside the young talent at our disposal. I’m not saying ditch promotion if that comes as part of this quickly then great.
Step forward Dean Smith. Give the bloke proper time if not the same monetary resources and allow him to build something. Last time we did this it worked with a certain Saunders bloke.
Comparisons with Saunders and Smith! Saunders had managed in the top division for a few seasons and had got two teams to the league cup finals. He was an established name and proven manager. Lovely bloke and Villa fan that he is, Smith has now track record of any sort, apart from against us
I agree about the rebuild but I'd rather go foreign. For example Christianson at Leeds who is building a decent side and plays attractive football. We shouldnt be put off by the Remi Garde debacle
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As has been said on other threads, we need a builder-craftsman, not a journeyman. The job descrpitioon should include:
- experience of working in clubs where the academy is taken seriously and seen as a genuine feeder for the first-team squad
- 'serious' candidates, with experience of building teams and winning with teams
- able to see beyond the narrow confines of the English game
- bring some gravitas to the role and able to develop their own personal credibility within the club
- acknowledge our past but recognise what it takes to develop a credible and successful future
If you apply this specc to the long list of possible candidates, I think either Koeman and de Boer would make a good fit.
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As has been said on other threads, we need a builder-craftsman, not a journeyman. The job descrpitioon should include:
- experience of working in clubs where the academy is taken seriously and seen as a genuine feeder for the first-team squad
- 'serious' candidates, with experience of building teams and winning with teams
- able to see beyond the narrow confines of the English game
- bring some gravitas to the role and able to develop their own personal credibility within the club
- acknowledge our past but recognise what it takes to develop a credible and successful future
If you apply this specc to the long list of possible candidates, I think either Koeman and de Boer would make a good fit.
From the list on the managers suggestions I think you could add Bielsa and Sanchez Flores as well. Whilst neither of them have had long stints at a club they both come from the same 'technique first' school of thought which would really help us. Bielsa is pie in the sky though, the only chance we have is if he sees English football as the one he has yet to crack and he sees the potential in restoring us.
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I said my piece on 'Bruce Out' but totally agree. I still believe a foreign coach is the best option as building a style of play is their bread and butter.
I actually think Reme Garde would have been a pretty good fit now. He did exactly this at Lyon.
When he was stitched up by Lerner and co he inherited a team of wasters. I believe this team, at the moment, has the talent, they just need direction.
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For too many years now we have employed managers for short term fix aims. Whether it be to simply survive in the PL or employing the latest cliched experienced at this level so called promotion specialist.
I’m coming to the view that we should look at the long term now. Bring someone in that can create a proper footballing philosophy and only bring in players that will fit round that not the other way round. This also means that we should be using these players alongside the young talent at our disposal. I’m not saying ditch promotion if that comes as part of this quickly then great.
Step forward Dean Smith. Give the bloke proper time if not the same monetary resources and allow him to build something. Last time we did this it worked with a certain Saunders bloke.
Would be my choice.
Fact he's a Villa fan is a bonus.
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I'd happily see Dean Smith replace Bruce.
I'd happily see Chris Smith replace Bruce.
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We should have been braver as a club as soon as we were relegated, it was the perfect opportunity to begin fixing the club root and branch. We've gone for the 'get up at any cost' method and it doesn't seem to have worked. Rebuilding everything now could see us stop in this division for a while now I think, which is criminally bad for Aston Villa.
I hate to sound so pessimistic but even if we did make the playoffs and somehow win them, this squad wouldn't fare well in the top flight. It's old, slow, barely any ideas or ingenuity. Painful stuff.
I think the idea was to try and get up first time, hence signing the appointments of RDM and Bruce, and the some of the signings we made. Hindsight is always 20/20 vision, but I remember being quite optimistic before the start of the season. Although some of the signings have worked, in other cases all we've done is add to the list of players we need to get out of the club.
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All teams are in some sort of rebuild or evolvement, it a constant thing, so i tend to hate the phrase. However, in our case, the one constant factor over the last 6 years or so, is our lack of astuteness when purchasing players, and our so called scouting skills. This is the basic necessity that any top tier club has in place. Its an area where we need to invest heavily in, since its been consistently cut back under the Lerner years, and does not seemed to have been improved under our current regime, judging by our purchases.
This is should be our priority.
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The legacy of all of this directionless mess is player numbers and really bad player purchases. Our first team squad is way too big. Which is a problem.
Even with our injuries, game time for our younger players is strictly limited as half of the U23 team is full of first team squad members (!).
And why isn’t Callum O’Hare being given a opportunity to play? He’d get into most Championship sides easily.
I thought Bruce was the right choice but I’m now questioning my judgment after yet another poor, poor showing on the road.
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The legacy of all of this directionless mess is player numbers and really bad player purchases. Our first team squad is way too big. Which is a problem.
Even with our injuries, game time for our younger players is strictly limited as half of the U23 team is full of first team squad members (!).
And why isn’t Callum O’Hare being given a opportunity to play? He’d get into most Championship sides easily.
I thought Bruce was the right choice but I’m now questioning my judgment after yet another poor, poor showing on the road.
Not giving the likes of O’Hare a chance is exactly why dinosaurs like Bruce aren’t the answer long term. Someone like Smith would see that. Instead we get two lumbering lumberjacks with about as much movement as Barry Austin in the middle.
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The following was posted on Villa Talk;
The list being the majority of our squad that will be left after contract expirys and loans ending will look something like:
Steer, Gollini
De Laet, Bree, Elmohammady, Chester, Elphick, Green, Taylor.
Adomah, Thishbola, Lansbury, Jedinak, Whelen, Lyden, Grealish, Hourihane, Gardner, Bjarnasson,
Hogan, McCormack, Davis
That is the squad we would be left with come June 2018 if we where promoted. Scary!
Surely this would feel like a lottery win for the club, if thats all that was left come June 2018 !!!
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We couldn't possibly rebuild under Steve Bruce as he believes in experience over youth. We can't rebuild now unless there is an admission from the club that we aren't that bothered about promotion. We simply need to go up, get in a proper manager to oversee the first team and then look to the DoF to do the behind the scenes rebuilding. The new manager would need to be someone who regularly included the kids on the bench for any games, not just meaningless cup games. I have always felt that the first team is the most important thing, get that right and everything else falls in to place. If your first team is right, the incoming kids learn from them. It is fair to suggest that there aren't too many of the under 23's who have got in to the side and thrived, therefore, there must be something wrong with the first team set up.
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The following was posted on Villa Talk;
The list being the majority of our squad that will be left after contract expirys and loans ending will look something like:
Steer, Gollini
De Laet, Bree, Elmohammady, Chester, Elphick, Green, Taylor.
Adomah, Thishbola, Lansbury, Jedinak, Whelen, Lyden, Grealish, Hourihane, Gardner, Bjarnasson,
Hogan, McCormack, Davis
That is the squad we would be left with come June 2018 if we where promoted. Scary!
Surely this would feel like a lottery win for the club, if thats all that was left come June 2018 !!!
Richards is still contracted until June 2019.
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Jeez, Kippax, you know how to cheer a man up!! 2019 eh? Another huge bundle of money wasted. What an absolute thief Richards is. Disgraceful.
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We were certainly in danger of slipping all the way down after relegation, such was the almighty mess we were in. We're still in a mess, of course, and one of our biggest failings (aside from all the complacency, misplaced arrogance and cloying comforts of VP and BMH) has been sheer stupidity. It seems baked into the concrete at Villa Park. Nobody has been able to stop us mid-blunder and say, hang on a minute, we've got this all wrong. We really have to ask ourselves how, time after time after time, we turn seemingly good players into shit ones.
For all his faults Steve Bruce has arrested the slide into oblivion. We are stable. But he simply doesn't have the intelligence, imagination or ability to get this lurching, lost institution back into the PL. That's obvious now.
We need to thank Bruce for his efforts after the next disappointing result (Saturday) and appoint a manager with a brain, the self-confidence and the ability to build a club ethos from the ground up. And us fans are going to have to accept at least another year or two in this shit league. I'm not sure either is going to happen, and so I expect the Championship to be our home for the foreseeable.
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The problem starts with is not taking the chance when the New Money and New Regime came in.
That meant taking the hit on the squad there and then, we failed, we tried to get half pregnant.
When reorganising there are general rules, cut deeper than you think you need to.
Throw all of the losses at the balance sheet in the first year and build from there.
The first cut should be the deepest you do not want to have to go back and do it again.
The Bruce era has spread another layer of crap on the shit sandwich.
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Why isn't Kodjia in that squad. He'll be in contract for two more years I assume, after this one.
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No-one can argue that as a club we have not lost our way. Our league status and position is proof positive.
I think that the idea that any manager can be appointed to create a dynasty is a myth. Wenger and Ferguson are the exceptions, and that situation unfolded, it was not planned. West Ham are probably the best example of a club built on strong foundations up to 1989, up to then they had only had five managers in almost 90 years. The evidence that it was a recipe for success is mixed.
With player contracts an average of three years and average managerial lifespan half that it I the Boardroom management team that counts, and we are still well light on talent there.
I am still behind Bruce. He pulled us out of our third tier bound tailspin, and we are in the mix for promotion in a pretty mediocre promotion chasing bunch. I said on appointment that he should be given three years. I stand by that. There comes a point when managerial change, not the manager, is the problem, and we had reached that point.
Rebuild? We are always rebuilding. What we need is someone who is capable of making the most out of what we have at any given time.
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rebuild ??
I would start with the north stand never liked it
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No-one can argue that as a club we have not lost our way. Our league status and position is proof positive.
I think that the idea that any manager can be appointed to create a dynasty is a myth. Wenger and Ferguson are the exceptions, and that situation unfolded, it was not planned. West Ham are probably the best example of a club built on strong foundations up to 1989, up to then they had only had five managers in almost 90 years. The evidence that it was a recipe for success is mixed.
With player contracts an average of three years and average managerial lifespan half that it I the Boardroom management team that counts, and we are still well light on talent there.
I am still behind Bruce. He pulled us out of our third tier bound tailspin, and we are in the mix for promotion in a pretty mediocre promotion chasing bunch. I said on appointment that he should be given three years. I stand by that. There comes a point when managerial change, not the manager, is the problem, and we had reached that point.
Rebuild? We are always rebuilding. What we need is someone who is capable of making the most out of what we have at any given time.
Agree on your point about managers, particularly as they have such a short employment span these days. That's why creating a 'dynasty' has to come from above that level and from someone like a Director of Football. They are now the ones who have put the structure in place and hire managers and identify players who will fit into that structure. Other clubs have done it, yet it is something we haven't done at all.
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Agree on your point about managers, particularly as they have such a short employment span these days. That's why creating a 'dynasty' has to come from above that level and from someone like a Director of Football. They are now the ones who have put the structure in place and hire managers and identify players who will fit into that structure. Other clubs have done it, yet it is something we haven't done at all.
Sorry mate but, if we are to create a "dynasty",then it starts from the ground up, not the other way round. The last time we tried was when a certain Mr Vic Crowe put into place a youth system, that the present manager has largely ignored until forced to.
We need to look at our coaching and scouting systems, and have a root and branch clear-out if necessary.
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It's definitely created from above imo. You hire a manager to implement your plan, you and him hire coaches along the same lines, you buy players to play that way. When the manager leaves you hire another manager to carry on the work and so on. Where we fail is that every time we hire a manager they want a new team and there's no continuity and the whole club is starting from scratch again.
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Agree PWS and the attitude of whatever we want we can buy it. The concept of building on previously established foundations for growth is swept aside by every incoming new order.
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I agree with all of the above. Where I think we as fans play a huge part is we have to accept that it is a long term commitment that won’t always be pretty. I think it’s a model that once fully implemented looks a lot like the factory that Southampton have created. I would love for us to have that level of talent coming through year after year.
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...and using it!!
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Agree. Okay injuries apart how long has it taken Rushian to get a chance. Davis, Green and O'Hare have to live for the gnarled old plodders getting the shits.
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Agree. Okay injuries apart how long has it taken Rushian to get a chance. Davis, Green and O'Hare have to live for the gnarled old plodders getting the shits.
RHM hasn't had too many chances but he's been injured most of the season, so has Green who was starting games when he got his injury. O'hare is the only one who can probably count himself unlucky.
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Agree. Okay injuries apart how long has it taken Rushian to get a chance. Davis, Green and O'Hare have to live for the gnarled old plodders getting the shits.
RHM hasn't had too many chances but he's been injured most of the season, so has Green who was starting games when he got his injury. O'hare is the only one who can probably count himself unlucky.
I liked what I saw of Doyle-Hayes in the League Cup Clampy and think that he is the kind of midfielder we have needed in times in that he is decent on the ball and keeps it moving quickly. I just wonder whether his size is going to go against him in certain quarters.
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Agree. Okay injuries apart how long has it taken Rushian to get a chance. Davis, Green and O'Hare have to live for the gnarled old plodders getting the shits.
RHM hasn't had too many chances but he's been injured most of the season, so has Green who was starting games when he got his injury. O'hare is the only one who can probably count himself unlucky.
I liked what I saw of Doyle-Hayes in the League Cup Clampy and think that he is the kind of midfielder we have needed in times in that he is decent on the ball and keeps it moving quickly. I just wonder whether his size is going to go against him in certain quarters.
I've seen him a few times when the U23's were shown on AVTV and he stood out more than Davis to be honest. He'll probably get a game in the cup.
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I have posted several times about rebuilding, but having looked at the contract end dates of all of the players I can find as definitely being on the books, below is a who's who of players and their contract end dates. (Info from AVFC website,Transfermkt,Wikipedea,Google amongst others.)
At present, we definitely have 74 players (1st team, reserves and academy) on the books.
Out of contract at end of season (2018) 26 players.
Out of contract 2019 30 players.
Out of contract 2020 13 players.
Out of contract 2021/2 5 players.
At the end of this season;
Terry, Bunn, Hutton, Samba, Agbonlahor, Sarkic, Watkins, Abdo, Blackett-Taylor, Borg, Prosser, Pastorek, Clarke, Clark, Finnerty, Coates, Knibbs, Cox, Hall, Idem, Johansson, Stretch, Boucher, Bazeley-Graham, Williams, Rowe.
2019;
Richards, Whelan, De Laet, Jedinak, Elphick, Green, Davis, Steer, Lyden, McKirdy, Suliman, O'Hare, Mooney, Gil, Pressley, Revan, Walker, Guy, Patterson, Birch(J), Ige, Ramsey, Birch(M), Tait, Brunt,Sea, Odutayo, Hooper.
2020;
Bjarnason, Chester, Elmohamady, Kodjia, Grealish, Adomah, McCormack, Gardner, Hepburn-Murphy, Doyle-Hayes, Tshibola, Bedeau, Gollini.
2021/22;
Hourihane, Lansbury, Taylor, Bree, Hogan.
So who would you give a new contract to?
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Were we to go up this season, I would probably keep Terry for another season if he felt he could manage it, while at the same time bring in a younger centre half who could take over from Terry the season after. The other senior players there could go.
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Sooooo much depends on what division we are in. Too soon to even think about this. Other than that is, that Agbonlahor does not get another contract regardless.
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Depressing seeing Micah's contract doesn't end for about another 18 months.
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Depressing seeing Micah's contract doesn't end for about another 18 months.
He’s leaving after his testimonial friendly against Fiorentina next season. I fully expect a ticker tape send off and plenty of Micah tattoos being requested at the local ink emporiums.
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Depressing seeing Micah's contract doesn't end for about another 18 months.
He’s leaving after his testimonial friendly against Fiorentina next season. I fully expect a ticker tape send off and plenty of Micah tattoos being requested at the local ink emporiums.
For his brilliant commitment to the Villa cause he deserves nothing less than a huge testimonial and a statue of the legend that is Micah Richards be put in a prominent place outside the stadium.
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Depressing seeing Micah's contract doesn't end for about another 18 months.
He’s leaving after his testimonial friendly against Fiorentina next season. I fully expect a ticker tape send off and plenty of Micah tattoos being requested at the local ink emporiums.
For his brilliant commitment to the Villa cause he deserves nothing less than a huge testimonial and a statue of the legend that is Micah Richards be put in a prominent place outside the stadium.
The statue would have more chance of getting a game.
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We need to adopt this philosophy now. Rid ourselves of as many of the big time charlie's as possible, do root and branch change. No more short term fix attempts they don't work. I would take another two seasons in this division to get the right philosophy going again. We cannot be lurching from one style to none to another. The Villa Engine lasted about 12 months didn't it. What a farce.
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We're currently up the creek without a paddle .........it's all very well having wealthy owners but if they don't have a handle on things ( ie our current poor form/squad) we are in real danger of becoming embroiled in a battle to stay up never mind get promoted - 1 point gained against the bottom 2 tells it's own story ....I hope appointments are made soon otherwise we are screwed
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We're currently up the creek without a paddle .........it's all very well having wealthy owners but if they don't have a handle on things ( ie our current poor form/squad) we are in real danger of becoming embroiled in a battle to stay up never mind get promoted - 1 point gained against the bottom 2 tells it's own story ....I hope appointments are made soon otherwise we are screwed
I’m not really sure what you want from the new owners at the moment. They rightly got rid of Bruce and there’s not much they can do until January to clear up the mess he left. We’re not getting relegated, there’s much worse in the league than us. Obviously the new manager will be a statement of intent but we’ll all have to give him until the end of next season before we even begin to go all Krakatoa on him
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Definitely time to rebuild.
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We need some new defenders and a keeper, that's clear to me.
I do think if we could actually get a front 3 of Adomah-Abraham-Bolaise from the actual start for at least two games that would be a dangerous combination at this level. Also would have Kodjia in the mix.
Reality is we're not going to be keeping many clean sheets between now and January so Dean needs to find a combination that is capable of getting us two goals a game on a regular basis.
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Definitely time to rebuild.
Saw a stat earlier that we're the 3rd oldest team in the league this season. That's a big part of the problem. We need to get 2-3 of the kids involved to give us a bit more energy, andthen to not write them off as shit after 1 game.
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Two full backs that can get up and down the pitch would be a huge step in changing our attacking style, Which at the minute is very predictable, Taylor and Hutton haven't got the energy levels or discipline for that role.
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Just a wild thought what about Bolasie as an attacking left back?!
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Hutton, Whelan and Jedinak are out of contract next summer, wouldnt be surprised to see a couple of them move on in Jan.
There are a host of other players with solid reputations in this division but dont seem a good fit for the football Dean Smith likes to play.
The 2 x Mendes loans, El Ghazi and Moreira, have been a disaster.
Bruce's vanity signing, Bolasie, cant even make our squad.
Bruce's long scouted signings, Hogan and Nyland, are doomed to be honest.
Hint of a revolution in the air coming in January, like Bruce's first transfer window.
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Just a wild thought what about Bolasie as an attacking left back?!
Time for bed Kippax!!
Might be better to stick Elmo in at right back instead of Hutton though.
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I thought Elmo was excellent on Saturday, but I must admit I was constantly surprised to see him popping up at the edge of the area taking potshots. For his handful of assists I'm not sure I like the idea of him being the third tine in a 4-3-3.
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Two full backs that can get up and down the pitch would be a huge step in changing our attacking style, Which at the minute is very predictable, Taylor and Hutton haven't got the energy levels or discipline for that role.
The other issue being that they are quite bad at football
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Players such as O'Hare should be given a run before Hogan, we seem to have a few youngsters that have been around forever, give some of them a go at least we will see if they are worth keeping.
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What's happened to Hepburn-Murphy?
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of course its time to rebuild. this is the moyes/allardyce/bruce vs smith equation. quick fix versus something based on a solid foundation. I'm not sure Smith would want half the players we have got currently in the squad so you have to give him time. If you want him to get an immediate tune out of some of the players we have, then i'm afraid you may be disappointed and you probably should have voted moyes/allardyce in the next manager poll.
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We need the essentials in January simply to stay in the league - and I'm not exaggerating. By Saturday we could easily be bottom six
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It is pretty staggeringly incompetent to have bought the team of individuals we have at still one of the most expensive budgets in the league and be potentially bottom six on Saturday and five points behind a club under a transfer embargo that boasts Gary Gardner as their lynchpin midfielder.
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exactly right. I wouldn't miss any of our players other than McGinn who has more commitment than the others put together.
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It’s a real mess of a squad. Goalkeeper, two full backs & a centre half required. We are stuck with the likes of Lansbury, Hogan, no promotion this season.
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It is pretty staggeringly incompetent to have bought the team of individuals we have at still one of the most expensive budgets in the league and be potentially bottom six on Saturday and five points behind a club under a transfer embargo that boasts Gary Gardner as their lynchpin midfielder.
I know it's been said a million times before but Steve Bruce did a staggeringly incompetent job, particularly from the takeover on wards with our Summer dealings. I've no idea what he was thinking.
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probably fuck you?
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It’s a mess of a squad with little pace. An injection of pace in January would help. Midfield especially is all one paced. Needs changing.
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probably fuck you?
Do you genuinely believe Steve Bruce bought duds out of spite, while still in the biggest job he will ever have?
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probably fuck you?
Do you genuinely believe Steve Bruce bought duds out of spite, while still in the biggest job he will ever have?
Exactly. He didn't achieve what he should have with the resources at his disposal, but some of the posts on here about him are ridiculous. Hysterical even.
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In precise language I do not think that Steve Bruce deliberately sabotaged the club any more than a smoker sabotages his own health by smoking cigarettes. It is deliberate denial of the need to comprehend the eventual outcome of unwise actions. Benign sabotage you might call it.
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probably fuck you?
Do you genuinely believe Steve Bruce bought duds out of spite, while still in the biggest job he will ever have?
Exactly. He didn't achieve what he should have with the resources at his disposal, but some of the posts on here about him are ridiculous. Hysterical even.
'I lose one game and everyone becomes hysterical, it's off wi me head.' Sorry couldn't resist.
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probably fuck you?
Do you genuinely believe Steve Bruce bought duds out of spite, while still in the biggest job he will ever have?
I don’t disbelieve it..
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I was semi joking - but I honestly think he was set on being bloody minded because of a series of unfortunate events entirely of his own making - starting with the owners refusing to bring Terry back as a player on 60k a week, the Spanish goalkeeper, who clearly wasn't a player he wanted ( although he was probably right on that one) the left back who slipped through his fingers would also have irked, and then we had Nyland pulled from the heavens followed by two unnecessary and hugely expensive wingers being brought in and he strange exits of a competent keeper middling senior centre back , RDL etc. To compound his misery, he then failed twice to sign a real centre back, knowing weeks before that it was a crucial transfer that had to happen, before landing Abraham - again a rare good move. a total clusterfuck that sadly Dean Smith will pay for .
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There’s no doubt that the trasnsfer window activity was uneven. We got McGinn, but didn’t get a centre half. We got 2 keepers but at least one looks a bit shit. We got 2 wingers, both with big reputations but both yet to deliver anything a quarter of the season gone (Bolasie looking way the more likely to justify a spit in the squad). I just put it down to odd decisions and not enough time with new owners to sanction deals that late in the day. Bruce is far from blameless, but no way was he sabotaging anything.
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I was semi joking - but I honestly think he was set on being bloody minded because of a series of unfortunate events entirely of his own making - starting with the owners refusing to bring Terry back as a player on 60k a week, the Spanish goalkeeper, who clearly wasn't a player he wanted ( although he was probably right on that one) the left back who slipped through his fingers would also have irked, and then we had Nyland pulled from the heavens followed by two unnecessary and hugely expensive wingers being brought in and he strange exits of a competent keeper middling senior centre back , RDL etc. To compound his misery, he then failed twice to sign a real centre back, knowing weeks before that it was a crucial transfer that had to happen, before landing Abraham - again a rare good move. a total clusterfuck that sadly Dean Smith will pay for .
I don't think Bruce was being 'bloody minded' just because a few transfer targets didn't work out, that's just utter nonsense. He fucked up letting players go and not replacing them, especially at center half. If he was really being as bloody minded as you say, he would not have brought in Abraham and McGinn, who are two very good players for this division. Anyone who thinks he left us short at the back on purpose is being ridiculous.
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The squad is a mess because Bruce was an incompetent tool.
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probably fuck you?
Do you genuinely believe Steve Bruce bought duds out of spite, while still in the biggest job he will ever have?
I suspect that once he realised his days were numbered he wanted to go out with a fat payoff rather than walking for nothing. I wouldn't call it spite but I think he knew what he was doing when he landed us with the most unbalanced lopsided squad in living memory.
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The squad is a mess because Bruce was an incompetent tool.
Here...here
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Plovers Been Worn
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this one is for you Clampy - anyone who believes that Bruce wasn't being bloody minded about constantly fielding players - particularly in an already weakened defence - out of position knowing that it would result in calamity needs their umps feeling.
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He played people out of position because he thought it was right but it was wrong. Oh and I'd rather you didn't feel my umps, whatever they are.
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He played people out of position because he thought it was right but it was wrong. Oh and I'd rather you didn't feel my umps, whatever they are.
What ya gonna do with all that junk
All that junk inside your trunk
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I think PWS got it about right, Bruce wasn’t a good manager. I’ve written off this season to be honest and the rebuilding can begin at the next window. I don’t think the current squad is anywhere near good enough to stay in the premier league so I’d rather we rebuild here ( as much as I hate this awful league)than get up and struggle to stay there. I said all along that the longer Bruce was manager the longer it would be to recover from him. It’s here to roost now. Dean Smith has got a lot of rebuilding to do, hopefully he’ll be given the time by everyone to do it
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He played people out of position because he thought it was right but it was wrong. Oh and I'd rather you didn't feel my umps, whatever they are.
What ya gonna do with all that junk
All that junk inside your trunk
I had to Google that and now the chorus is in my head, you scamp.
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Your lovely Clampy umps.
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It's Clumpy to you.
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I think PWS got it about right, Bruce wasn’t a good manager. I’ve written off this season to be honest and the rebuilding can begin at the next window. I don’t think the current squad is anywhere near good enough to stay in the premier league so I’d rather we rebuild here ( as much as I hate this awful league)than get up and struggle to stay there. I said all along that the longer Bruce was manager the longer it would be to recover from him. It’s here to roost now. Dean Smith has got a lot of rebuilding to do, hopefully he’ll be given the time by everyone to do it
I don't think you have to worry about staying in the Premier League with the squad you go up with as the money that comes with promotion means you can bring players in. Any decent players in the three that go down are usually prime targets. Bruce reminds me of my days playing Championship Manager on the computer. Bruce left us with a squad that was unbalanced and weak in certain positions, which is unforgivable after the length of time and amount of money he was given. I used to struggle to find decent full backs so would double or triple up on them and also buy loads of strikers as I was concerned about not scoring enough goals. Then realise I was out of cash and short on midfielders.
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I think PWS got it about right, Bruce wasn’t a good manager. I’ve written off this season to be honest and the rebuilding can begin at the next window. I don’t think the current squad is anywhere near good enough to stay in the premier league so I’d rather we rebuild here ( as much as I hate this awful league)than get up and struggle to stay there. I said all along that the longer Bruce was manager the longer it would be to recover from him. It’s here to roost now. Dean Smith has got a lot of rebuilding to do, hopefully he’ll be given the time by everyone to do it
I don't think you have to worry about staying in the Premier League with the squad you go up with as the money that comes with promotion means you can bring players in. Any decent players in the three that go down are usually prime targets. Bruce reminds me of my days playing Championship Manager on the computer. Bruce left us with a squad that was unbalanced and weak in certain positions, which is unforgivable after the length of time and amount of money he was given. I used to struggle to find decent full backs so would double or triple up on them and also buy loads of strikers as I was concerned about not scoring enough goals. Then realise I was out of cash and short on midfielders.
Steve? Is that you?
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Perhaps Bruce believed the hype that he was a promotion specialist. Bit like the company Blockbuster. Was successful in its day but as things moved on it got left behind and folded.
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Are they not around anymore? I wanted to return Beverly Hills Cop tonight.
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probably fuck you?
Most definitely!
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I think we will manage to get one permanent and one loan in January - plus replacements if anyone leaves (possibly Adomah). One of those two has to be a centreback, the other yet another keeper or leftback ?
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When we say rebuild, there really isn't much choice unless Dean Smith starts handing contract extensions out like confetti. Hutton, Bunn, Elphick, Richards, Jedinak, Whelan, Gardner all at the end of their contract in July. Tammy, Moriera, Bolasie, El Ghazi and Tuanzebe all ending their loans. A whole team leaving at the end of the season. Tshibola, McCormack and Lansbury are likely to be out come what may. Not much choice but to rebuild! Mr Pitarch needs to get busy. Be a lot of money saved on salary there too I would imagine.
Nyland (I won't give up on him just yet), Grealish, McGinn, Hourihane, Chester, Kodjia, Hogan, Taylor, Bree, Adomah, Davis, all remain. Defensive overhaul.
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I don’t think Dean will that much involed in new contracts that’s what the new DOF is for as I read it getting this squad to play and win games is his remit.
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When we say rebuild, there really isn't much choice unless Dean Smith starts handing contract extensions out like confetti. Hutton, Bunn, Elphick, Richards, Jedinak, Whelan, Gardner all at the end of their contract in July. Tammy, Moriera, Bolasie, El Ghazi and Tuanzebe all ending their loans. A whole team leaving at the end of the season. Tshibola, McCormack and Lansbury are likely to be out come what may. Not much choice but to rebuild! Mr Pitarch needs to get busy. Be a lot of money saved on salary there too I would imagine.
Nyland (I won't give up on him just yet), Grealish, McGinn, Hourihane, Chester, Kodjia, Hogan, Taylor, Bree, Adomah, Davis, all remain. Defensive overhaul.
This is why I'd recall Suliman and Clark in Jan and give both of them and Bree a good chance to get a spot in the squad, add o'Hare, Doyle-Hayes, Clarke, RHM and maybe 1-2 more and try to have a solid set of players who trained and played together going into the season. We'll need to add to it but it's a good starting point.
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When we say rebuild, there really isn't much choice unless Dean Smith starts handing contract extensions out like confetti. Hutton, Bunn, Elphick, Richards, Jedinak, Whelan, Gardner all at the end of their contract in July. Tammy, Moriera, Bolasie, El Ghazi and Tuanzebe all ending their loans. A whole team leaving at the end of the season. Tshibola, McCormack and Lansbury are likely to be out come what may. Not much choice but to rebuild! Mr Pitarch needs to get busy. Be a lot of money saved on salary there too I would imagine.
Nyland (I won't give up on him just yet), Grealish, McGinn, Hourihane, Chester, Kodjia, Hogan, Taylor, Bree, Adomah, Davis, all remain. Defensive overhaul.
This is why I'd recall Suliman and Clark in Jan and give both of them and Bree a good chance to get a spot in the squad, add o'Hare, Doyle-Hayes, Clarke, RHM and maybe 1-2 more and try to have a solid set of players who trained and played together going into the season. We'll need to add to it but it's a good starting point.
yep i'm deffo for blooding the youth. The squad is an unbalanced mess anyway so what have we got to lose by trying youngsters?
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It will be interesting to watch how Smith transforms this bunch into his ideas of how the game should be played. For a start very few of the squad have an adequate amount of ball control, watching the Norwich game it struck me that although the defence were trying to pass it around they at no time looked comfortable, totally foreign territory for them I think. McGinn for me is the one shining light if we can build the team around his work ethic we will be fine.
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When we say rebuild, there really isn't much choice unless Dean Smith starts handing contract extensions out like confetti. Hutton, Bunn, Elphick, Richards, Jedinak, Whelan, Gardner all at the end of their contract in July. Tammy, Moriera, Bolasie, El Ghazi and Tuanzebe all ending their loans. A whole team leaving at the end of the season. Tshibola, McCormack and Lansbury are likely to be out come what may. Not much choice but to rebuild! Mr Pitarch needs to get busy. Be a lot of money saved on salary there too I would imagine.
Nyland (I won't give up on him just yet), Grealish, McGinn, Hourihane, Chester, Kodjia, Hogan, Taylor, Bree, Adomah, Davis, all remain. Defensive overhaul.
This is why I'd recall Suliman and Clark in Jan and give both of them and Bree a good chance to get a spot in the squad, add o'Hare, Doyle-Hayes, Clarke, RHM and maybe 1-2 more and try to have a solid set of players who trained and played together going into the season. We'll need to add to it but it's a good starting point.
yep i'm deffo for blooding the youth. The squad is an unbalanced mess anyway so what have we got to lose by trying youngsters?
I totally agree with you. A mix of experience and youth. O'Hare seems the most likely given Smith's comments in the presser about him. Doyle-Hayes might also be another who needs blooding in over half a season.
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Gardner isn't out of contract until 2020.
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Are they not around anymore? I wanted to return Beverly Hills Cop tonight.
Get yourself to Bend, Oregon...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45175194
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Gardner isn't out of contract until 2020.
Best we move him to the for sale list in that case. See if we can get that lot to overpay for him.
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Are they not around anymore? I wanted to return Beverly Hills Cop tonight.
Get yourself to Bend, Oregon...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45175194
Thanks mate. No direct flights from Brum.
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Tshibola was quoted as saying yesterday he has a recall clause in his loan contract in January. Therefore I assume Gardner has the same.
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When we say rebuild, there really isn't much choice unless Dean Smith starts handing contract extensions out like confetti. Hutton, Bunn, Elphick, Richards, Jedinak, Whelan, Gardner all at the end of their contract in July. Tammy, Moriera, Bolasie, El Ghazi and Tuanzebe all ending their loans. A whole team leaving at the end of the season. Tshibola, McCormack and Lansbury are likely to be out come what may. Not much choice but to rebuild! Mr Pitarch needs to get busy. Be a lot of money saved on salary there too I would imagine.
Nyland (I won't give up on him just yet), Grealish, McGinn, Hourihane, Chester, Kodjia, Hogan, Taylor, Bree, Adomah, Davis, all remain. Defensive overhaul.
I think we are probably going to look at moving out some of those in bold in January to try and get a bit of money for them. It is going to be a big rebuilding job and may take some time.
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When we say rebuild, there really isn't much choice unless Dean Smith starts handing contract extensions out like confetti. Hutton, Bunn, Elphick, Richards, Jedinak, Whelan, Gardner all at the end of their contract in July. Tammy, Moriera, Bolasie, El Ghazi and Tuanzebe all ending their loans. A whole team leaving at the end of the season. Tshibola, McCormack and Lansbury are likely to be out come what may. Not much choice but to rebuild! Mr Pitarch needs to get busy. Be a lot of money saved on salary there too I would imagine.
Nyland (I won't give up on him just yet), Grealish, McGinn, Hourihane, Chester, Kodjia, Hogan, Taylor, Bree, Adomah, Davis, all remain. Defensive overhaul.
I think we are probably going to look at moving out some of those in bold in January to try and get a bit of money for them. It is going to be a big rebuilding job and may take some time.
looks like we could be in for a bumper windfall in January then !!
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When we say rebuild, there really isn't much choice unless Dean Smith starts handing contract extensions out like confetti. Hutton, Bunn, Elphick, Richards, Jedinak, Whelan, Gardner all at the end of their contract in July. Tammy, Moriera, Bolasie, El Ghazi and Tuanzebe all ending their loans. A whole team leaving at the end of the season. Tshibola, McCormack and Lansbury are likely to be out come what may. Not much choice but to rebuild! Mr Pitarch needs to get busy. Be a lot of money saved on salary there too I would imagine.
Nyland (I won't give up on him just yet), Grealish, McGinn, Hourihane, Chester, Kodjia, Hogan, Taylor, Bree, Adomah, Davis, all remain. Defensive overhaul.
I think we are probably going to look at moving out some of those in bold in January to try and get a bit of money for them. It is going to be a big rebuilding job and may take some time.
looks like we could be in for a bumper windfall in January then !!
I doubt it!! I'm guessing that we would only realistically get any money for Elphick, Jedinak and Gardner if they were to move in January.
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When we say rebuild, there really isn't much choice unless Dean Smith starts handing contract extensions out like confetti. Hutton, Bunn, Elphick, Richards, Jedinak, Whelan, Gardner all at the end of their contract in July. Tammy, Moriera, Bolasie, El Ghazi and Tuanzebe all ending their loans. A whole team leaving at the end of the season. Tshibola, McCormack and Lansbury are likely to be out come what may. Not much choice but to rebuild! Mr Pitarch needs to get busy. Be a lot of money saved on salary there too I would imagine.
Nyland (I won't give up on him just yet), Grealish, McGinn, Hourihane, Chester, Kodjia, Hogan, Taylor, Bree, Adomah, Davis, all remain. Defensive overhaul.
I think we are probably going to look at moving out some of those in bold in January to try and get a bit of money for them. It is going to be a big rebuilding job and may take some time.
looks like we could be in for a bumper windfall in January then !!
I doubt it!! I'm guessing that we would only realistically get any money for Elphick, Jedinak and Gardner if they were to move in January.
I'm sure the wage bill will breathe a sigh of relief though!
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Richards and a transfer fee is the biggest non sequitur ever - a carmelite nun has seen more action in the last three years.
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We need to sign a Dennis Mortimer.If only
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Yes we need to rebuild with youngsters like RHM, CH, AG and ES in the spine of the team combined with JG, JM, JB, KD etc. I was really impressed with the young Derby players the other night.
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Yes we need to rebuild with youngsters like RHM, CH, AG and ES in the spine of the team combined with JG, JM, JB, KD etc. I was really impressed with the young Derby players the other night.
He mentioned in his press conference that we have the third oldest squad in the league having come from the youngest. I would hope our average age in the next 12-18 months gets a lot lower.
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Dean will at least have scope to mould the midfield into his style next summer, Whelan and Jedinak both high earners here and both out of contract so that will give him scope in that part of the squad at least.
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We may just have to put up with a sows ear this year in order to get most of the clear out done and properly start afresh in the summer. When will it end?
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Patience is the key. DS is the way forward, some of our squad aren't
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You don't know that though. We could win the next eight (statistically unlikely) or we could lose a few and draw a few etc. I want Dean to succeed as much as you do, but I can't say incontestably that he will.
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I see the mid term problem for D'S being unable, due entirely to factors out of his control, to rebuild quickly enough to avoid him being criticised for failing to deliver. Another Remi Garde for whom time runs out too soon. Of course Dean will get more than three months and zero transfers but the principle is the same. Looking at us struggle against Norwich and QPR drives home the realization of how far and how fast we have fallen since Randy Lerner jumped in his jet to go and fetch TSM1.
Dean's demeanor after the game last night tells you that he now realizes the magnitude of the task he faces. Two seasons of rebuilding at the least.
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throw me something to cling onto Brian, I'm at breaking point with this shitshower at the moment.
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Mr U, based on what I have experienced at VP since 1946 including everything from relegation into the 3rd Divison to Rotterdam I promise you we shall rise again. Of that I have no doubt whatsoever. What we do have to accept totally is how bad, how inept, how rotten we were when we were relegated. We did not rebuild, as we now must do, we just threw huge amounts of money at the problem. In pursuing that policy, as I was saying to Sexual Ealing last night, we became a honey pot for freeloaders, idlers and unprincipled carpet baggers. We all know their names. They have not yet all gone.
This season is gone because we were totally unprepared for it and the new owners bought into the safe pair of hands stability fiction that Steve Bruce and his predecessors with help of media mates had created.
Dean Smith and the new owners and staff have a huge job on their hands. Our job is to accept the pain of change because there is no easy way of buying our way back to our rightful place. But we will get there.
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Yes we need to rebuild with youngsters like RHM, CH, AG and ES in the spine of the team combined with JG, JM, JB, KD etc. I was really impressed with the young Derby players the other night.
Agreed. But are our youngsters good enough
It depresses the hell out of me that our bench has the same old faces. There are no youngsters being given at least some game time
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I dont think it’s that bad, a good keeper and good centre half would see this squad challenge. The problem is is that can’t happen until January.
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I dont think it’s that bad, a good keeper and good centre half would see this squad challenge. The problem is is that can’t happen until January.
Need full backs who are comfortable on the ball and can offer an attacking threat as well.
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To my mind the main task is clearing the decks of all the freeloaders and inept signings whilst also starting to build something for the longer term and at least maintaining our position in this league. That may involve the sale of a couple of so-called crown jewels such as Grealish to balance the FFP books in the short term.
We get rid of a slug of wages on Hutton, Whelan, Jedinak, Richards, Bunn, Elphick, Steer, Lyden, Green and RDL at the end of this season. Of that lot, I would think Green will get a contract extension.
The following year sees us lose the 'talents' of Fat Ross, BB, Hourihane, Elmo, Chester, Adomah, Kodjia, Gardner, Tishbola & Davis.
Thats 20 players above and of that lot, I would only keep BB, Hourihane, Chester, Kodjia towards a longterm squad of 24/25 players.
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Yes we need to rebuild with youngsters like RHM, CH, AG and ES in the spine of the team combined with JG, JM, JB, KD etc. I was really impressed with the young Derby players the other night.
Agreed. But are our youngsters good enough
It depresses the hell out of me that our bench has the same old faces. There are no youngsters being given at least some game time
Give it a couple of weeks, and we'll have more of an inkling. Smith's not had long to assess the available first team, let alone see if he fancies any of the U23s.
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I see the mid term problem for D'S being unable, due entirely to factors out of his control, to rebuild quickly enough to avoid him being criticised for failing to deliver. Another Remi Garde for whom time runs out too soon. Of course Dean will get more than three months and zero transfers but the principle is the same. Looking at us struggle against Norwich and QPR drives home the realization of how far and how fast we have fallen since Randy Lerner jumped in his jet to go and fetch TSM1.
Dean's demeanor after the game last night tells you that he now realizes the magnitude of the task he faces. Two seasons of rebuilding at the least.
I think Garde was different in that we were still a premier league club and the expectation (at the time) was that it was actually a decent squad he inherited that Sherwood had wasted (again view at the time) and yet we hardly got any points in his first two months so no new manager bounce at all. He then rightly or wrongly gave up when he couldn't sign anyone so I could understand us letting him go.
I think we'll be very inconsistant up to the new year, this week probably sums up how it will go. Let's just hope we win enough home games to stay in the mix.
I said last night he gets the same time as I gave SB. I didn't expect Steve Bruce to get us top 6 when he first came and instead would judge from the start of the next season when he's got in new signings, pre season etc so same applies to Dean and think that's reasonable as we will release likes of Hutton, Jedinak, Whelan and get in more dynamic players to fit his system.
Do we really need two years rebuilding? Signing some decent defenders and keeper and we would look much better like last year.
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Going with the rebuild analogy
we must be the equivalent of a Aston Martin Barn find
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Lads and lasses. The rebuilding has begun.
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Lads and lasses. The rebuilding has begun.
No rebuild necessary. We've got the best squad in the league - yesterday showed what they're capable of with a bit of coaching.
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Lads and lasses. The rebuilding has begun.
No rebuild necessary. We've got the best squad in the league - yesterday showed what they're capable of with a bit of coaching.
You're right but we really do need a proper left back and cover at CB. I'd also get Steer back from Charlton if possible, to provide better GK options.
I'd also ideally want to offload AA and possibly Kodjia and play RHM, Green, Davis and O'Hare for gametime experience. But I suspect that won't happen.
Addendum: the player who would slot in brilliantly in our current side? - Rob Snodgrass! Energy, attitude and an eye for goal.