Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: wittonwarrior on September 23, 2017, 10:33:48 PM
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Debate between legends today tony Morley agrees with my view always play your strongest 11 - mark Walters likes the idea of blooding new talent and pitting their wits against better standard of play. Pity mr Walters was not there Tuesday
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Difficult one that one, when you are trying to find your best team as we still are the argument of getting them playing every game is strong - the other one might be that the team picked on Tuesday would have been ok had he put 4/5 first team players on the bench as options, particularly as not many have played every league game.
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When ye come into the land which I give you, then shall the land keep a sabbath unto the LORD. Six years thou shalt sow thy field, and six years thou shalt prune thy vineyard, and gather in the fruit thereof; But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard. That which groweth of its own accord of thy harvest thou shalt not reap, neither gather the grapes of thy vine undressed: for it is a year of rest unto the land. (Leviticus 25:2-7)
Thou shalt ignore rotation and use just fourteen all season. Do not prune your Withe unless suspended, then gather your Geddis and harvest your Deacy sparingly. Follow the word of Ron, give 110% and thou shalt still reap the League. (Saunders 80:81)
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With 2 away games this week after a 5.30 kick off today, we will have to rotate. Trouble is beyond Onomah I am not sure who I would trust to come in.
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Bolton is home and then there's the break for the non internationals like Terry and Adomah, but I agree Ozzjim and hope some of the walking wounded are available this week.
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Same 11 for Burton which is a tough game
Freshen up for Bolton: new RB, Onomah, and some from Lansbury, hogan, O'Hare
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Play the best XI that are fit and available in the manner which stands the greatest chance of defeating the opposition.
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With all due to respect to Tony Morley I think what applied in his time is less relevant these days. It was the days of one sub and relatively small squads, so all teams pretty much had a first eleven and a couple as backup. Nowadays there is far more emphasis on using the squad and with fitness levels monitored on a more scientific basis, rest and recovery is seen as far more important. Part of the reason for the substitutions yesterday I am sure was with an eye on playing again on Tuesday. If the side you are playing has used rotation to keep players fresher then you start at a disadvantage if you haven't.
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Impossible with 46 games and so many Saturday-Tuesdays to play your strongest 11 all through the season.
Everyone rotates.
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I was brought up on heavy pitches, players who had to ensure much heavier and physical challenges.
We used 14 players in the league over the whole of the season so why are things so much different today.
The counter argument I understand of up and coming players needing to prove themselves. These up and coming players, play in competitive football at different age levels. This argument would however have some credence if when they stepped up they were faced with first team players from the opposition however almost always they face the same kind of player in terms of development and calibre when playing in the league cup and sometimes the FA cup.
All this means to us the fans is that we are asked to play first team players to watch either stiffs or development players in what is effectively a reserve team match.
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I was brought up on heavy pitches, players who had to ensure much heavier and physical challenges.
We used 14 players in the league over the whole of the season so why are things so much different today.
For the same reason why footballs aren't like cannonballs and pitches aren't mudbaths from November to April. Football's changed; if you'd had seven substitutes and a squad of 25 in 1980-81 we would have use a lot more than fourteen players.
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If he rotates you many players against Burton I will be miffed off. But with two games in a week and a few old codgers in the team we may need to shuffle a bit. Not the wholesale changes we have been seeing this season though, it loses momentum.
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You'd think people would be more understanding after the MON days of fading come February.
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It's an absolute no brainer. Unless you think that the entire football world has made a mistake and there really is no need to rotate. Which seems unlikely
As per above, MoN literally proved the point EVERY FUCKING SPRING
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I think that rotation is much easier, and more effective, when you have a definite system implemented throughout the club. Like we're supposed to be working on for the future. That way, the players coming in know their exact role and what's expected of them. When you're constantly chopping and changing the formation and tactics, like how we started the season, it's more difficult for players to come in without cracks showing a little.
Hopefully we're starting to be a bit more settled now. Bruce seems to have stumbled upon (or studiously worked out) a winning set up, which should make it a bit easier to introduce a couple of changes.
Of course it would have been to everyone's benefit if we'd have discovered these tactics in May, and then could have had a summer to work towards it, but hey, better late than never I guess.
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It's an absolute no brainer. Unless you think that the entire football world has made a mistake and there really is no need to rotate. Which seems unlikely
As per above, MoN literally proved the point EVERY FUCKING SPRING
A different take on this would be, which would you take, lower rotation and being top 3-4 by Spring, knowing our best 11 have worked hard and are tired
Higher rotation and being mid table. Potential large gap to top 2 to make up with fresher players.
I guess I would always take the points.
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The old MON dilema, flog the same faces week in and week out, then fall apart in March.
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I agree with squad rotation in a long season, but there is a time and a place to rotate and having a couple of games before an international break may not be one of them. Unless there are players carrying injuries then play the strongest team available. There will be other times during this season where we don't have the luxury of an international break, and it will be at those times where decisions of resting players will need to be made.
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Playing reserves in an important cup game is NOT rotation.
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Play the best XI that are fit and available in the manner which stands the greatest chance of defeating the opposition.
Yes. Natural "rotation" will come through injuries and suspensions.
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Playing reserves in an important cup game is NOT rotation.
No, rightly or wrongly it was resting them.
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Playing reserves in an important cup game is NOT rotation.
If we were mid table in the PL then I’d agree with you, but not while our sole priority should be getting out of this league. The League Cup is just not important to us right now.
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Playing reserves in an important cup game is NOT rotation.
If we were mid table in the PL then I’d agree with you, but not while our sole priority should be getting out of this league. The League Cup is just not important to us right now.
Well it should be.
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Ah, the old O'Neill Shattered by March hypothesis.
Shame that in three of MON's four seasons, we ended strongly, despite being so knackered.
Still, people will believe what they want to believe.
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Ah, the old O'Neill Shattered by March hypothesis.
Shame that in three of MON's four seasons, we ended strongly, despite being so knackered.
Still, people will believe what they want to believe.
That's really not what I remember. The season we chase fourth we fell apart. And I distinctly remember us at Wembley against Chelsea where Milner and petrov looked like they'd run a 5,000 m before the game had started
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Rotation my arse, It's 90 minutes and we don't exactly play 100 mph football, strongest XI every time for me.
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For those that are happy for us to chuck the cups away, there will always be a good reason to do so.
Which ever division we are in we are always going to be either "in with a chance of promotion/relegation/Europe/playoffs". So that's the cups gone forever.
What a sad state of affairs.
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FFS we won the league with 14 players. Who needs rotation?
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How can it be rotation when he didnt pick any of the players who play in the league game? He was resting them.
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FFS we won the league with 14 players. Who needs rotation?
There are some people who'd say that and be serious.
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FFS we won the league with 14 players. Who needs rotation?
There are some people who'd say that and be serious.
Is there not somewhere in the middle though?
Most would agree with resting a few players - maybe the 'older' players or those with a niggle. But 11 changes, and not one of the '1st XI' on the bench to even play part of the game, is a complete piss take, and a spinless way to go out of a Cup in front of you home fans.
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Ah, the old O'Neill Shattered by March hypothesis.
Shame that in three of MON's four seasons, we ended strongly, despite being so knackered.
Still, people will believe what they want to believe.
07/08 5 wins in the last 16, although it did in include that 3 game run scoring 15.
08/09 2 wins in last 13, plus 3 without a win in cups
09/10 6 wins in last 17, plus a couple of cup wins.
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For some reason you missed out 06/07, where we went unbeaten in our last 6/7 games.
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My recollection is that the habit of picking the same 11 every game and barely making a sub, only really started in his second season, when he'd built the side he wanted
The stats for three years running above seem pretty convincing to me
Plus actually watching us, it seemed pretty clear
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For some reason you missed out 06/07, where we went unbeaten in our last 6/7 games.
Because I was pointing out the 3 seasons we did run out of steam, rather than the 1 you claimed. Be a bit pointless including the season we didn't wouldn't it.
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So the season we didn't would be evidence against then, wouldn't it?
Some thumping wins near the end of other seasons (07/08) are hardly typical of exhausted teams, either.
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Square pegs in round holes.
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It was three drubbings in 14 days.
We ran out of steam. The reason we didn't in 06/07 is that Carew and Young had only been with us since the end of January and couldnt be flogged to death in time.
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So the season we didn't would be evidence against then, wouldn't it?
Some thumping wins near the end of other seasons (07/08) are hardly typical of exhausted teams, either.
You said we didn't run out of steam in 3 of his 4 seasons, i've shown you that we ran out of steam in 3 of the 4. Which obviously leaves 1 we didn't, I assumed that would be obvious. We did not run out of steam in his first season. We did in his last 3. There, that covers his first season and corrects your original claim.
As for the thumping wins proving anything, those 3 were the only games we won in March, April and May, and were against the sides that finished 16th, 19th and 20th.
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So the season we didn't would be evidence against then, wouldn't it?
Some thumping wins near the end of other seasons (07/08) are hardly typical of exhausted teams, either.
You said we didn't run out of steam in 3 of his 4 seasons, i've shown you that we ran out of steam in 3 of the 4. Which obviously leaves 1 we didn't, I assumed that would be obvious. We did not run out of steam in his first season. We did in his last 3. There, that covers his first season and corrects your original claim.
As for the thumping wins proving anything, those 3 were the only games we won in March, April and May, and were against the sides that finished 16th, 19th and 20th.
Case closed m'lud
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It's easier to rotate when you keep the system the same. Trouble earlier in the season was that Bruce was swapping formation and personnel.
Now he's realised that two up top is the way to go, it's easier to switch in a player or two when needed. As long as you're training the whole squad to that formation.
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Ah, the return of the 'wins against struggling teams don't count, guv' argument. How we've missed it!
Presumably, we don't get three points for beating the likes of Barnsley and Burton, then?
Oh. and while we're at it, someone please explain to me how it is that a 'knackered by March' team was still competing for a Chumps League place in its last away game in May 2010?
So, like I said, the theory works, once in four years -but of course, none of my evidence counts, so you win.
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I never said they didn't count, I specifically mentioned them in my original reply. So that's another piece of your 'evidence' that doesn't hold up to the slightest scrutiny. But when they're your only wins in the last 3 months then yes, we ran out of steam. It's the very definition of it.
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This thread is starting to go round in circles.
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It's easier to rotate when you keep the system the same. Trouble earlier in the season was that Bruce was swapping formation and personnel.
Now he's realised that two up top is the way to go, it's easier to switch in a player or two when needed. As long as you're training the whole squad to that formation.
Spot on.
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Strongest available side for me. Winning is a habit so as much as possible keep the same side together.
Obviously injuries, suspensions, poor form mean you have to dip in and out of your squad and thats what i think of rotation when its said.
Not sure what bruce was trying to achieve in the cup game. Show how crap the rest of the squad is?