Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Sexual Ealing on November 08, 2016, 06:42:12 PM
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This is interesting: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/nov/08/english-football-tolerates-homophobia-john-amaechi-tells-mps
Surely if a Villa player was to be the first high profile pro to come out (while still playing) then we'd overwhelmingly think of that as a cause for celebration. Obviously it's difficult for the individual concerned to become a standard bearer but I think that a positive response to the first one to do it would quickly mean that more would do it?
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I can totally understand why footballers don't come out. I have no doubt that if a villa player came out they'd be supported by the fans, but sadly I also have little doubt that if a player from a rival club came out, it would be open season on them.
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This is interesting: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/nov/08/english-football-tolerates-homophobia-john-amaechi-tells-mps
Surely if a Villa player was to be the first high profile pro to come out (while still playing) then we'd overwhelmingly think of that as a cause for celebration. Obviously it's difficult for the individual concerned to become a standard bearer but I think that a positive response to the first one to do it would quickly mean that more would do it?
It would be nice to think so, but I fear there'd be enough troglodyte c***s on the terraces - even our terraces - to make his life a misery. Absolutely ridiculous.
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I think it need to say half of dozen players to come out at the same time so not one player get special treatment.
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I dont think it would be that bad,maybe the odd comment,but I dont think there would be any group chants for example.Thankfully I havnt heard any racist stuff since the mid 80s,cant see why homophobia would be any different.
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I think its up to the huge majority to show their support. Ironically they would normally do this by continuing on as normal. I couldn't care less about someone's creed, colour, religion, sexuality, football team selection etc, its their choice. However it would be great to help people feel comfortable in coming out. I can't imagine how hard it must be to live a lie. I feel very ashamed of our so called forward thinking country sometimes
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I dont think it would be that bad,maybe the odd comment,but I dont think there would be any group chants for example.Thankfully I havnt heard any racist stuff since the mid 80s,cant see why homophobia would be any different.
When did Matthew Upson last play at Villa Park?
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Could be wrong .but guessing 2001-2 ish.Pray tell,what happened ? (Genuine question)
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I dont think it would be that bad,maybe the odd comment,but I dont think there would be any group chants for example.Thankfully I havnt heard any racist stuff since the mid 80s,cant see why homophobia would be any different.
When did Matthew Upson last play at Villa Park?
Yep, shameful from the Holte that day, absolute homophobia at its worst.
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Ah,didnt know that,feel a bit daft now.Still,do you think that would happen today ?
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I think things have moved on even in the relatively short time since then.
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Could be wrong .but guessing 2001-2 ish.Pray tell,what happened ? (Genuine question)
Some internet nonsense rumour about him and Will Young, and it was open season.
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Ah,didnt know that,feel a bit daft now.Still,do you think that would happen today ?
Possibly there's still enough people who think being gay is some sort of disease or something they just can't understand and of course there's those who'll do it and justify with the "it's just bantz".
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Could be wrong .but guessing 2001-2 ish.Pray tell,what happened ? (Genuine question)
Some internet nonsense rumour about him and Will Young, and it was open season.
Didn't he get sent off after about half an hour?
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Could be wrong .but guessing 2001-2 ish.Pray tell,what happened ? (Genuine question)
Some internet nonsense rumour about him and Will Young, and it was open season.
Didn't he get sent off after about half an hour?
Taken off with an "injury". Looked visibly upset from where I was sitting.
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Couldnt give a fig if a footballer is gay straight, bisexual, assexual or metrosexual ... biggest challenge these days is footballers recognising when its consensual !!!
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I think, now days, if a Villa player "came out" it would be no problem at all with majority say about 90% of us at Villa Park. In fact it would be an honour that he has chosen to do that. However there is 10% element that have vile views on everything from race/colour/sexism/orientation etc and would no not accept it.
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I'd probably be thinking twice again in today's political climate, if it was me in that position.
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Could be wrong .but guessing 2001-2 ish.Pray tell,what happened ? (Genuine question)
It was about a decade after that.
And yes, ?% Villa is very much a thing, gorra problem with it?
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This is interesting: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/nov/08/english-football-tolerates-homophobia-john-amaechi-tells-mps
Surely if a Villa player was to be the first high profile pro to come out (while still playing) then we'd overwhelmingly think of that as a cause for celebration . Obviously it's difficult for the individual concerned to become a standard bearer but I think that a positive response to the first one to do it would quickly mean that more would do it?
Isn't being gay something natural, rather than an achievement to celebrate? A footballer's sexuality hasn't really got anything to do with the people who have come to watch them play football, it's none of our business. I'm not even sure why they might feel the need to tell us. So what, big deal - just train hard and win games.
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This is interesting: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/nov/08/english-football-tolerates-homophobia-john-amaechi-tells-mps
Surely if a Villa player was to be the first high profile pro to come out (while still playing) then we'd overwhelmingly think of that as a cause for celebration . Obviously it's difficult for the individual concerned to become a standard bearer but I think that a positive response to the first one to do it would quickly mean that more would do it?
Isn't being gay something natural, rather than an achievement to celebrate? A footballer's sexuality hasn't really got anything to do with the people who have come to watch them play football, it's none of our business. I'm not even sure why they might feel the need to tell us. So what, big deal - just train hard and win games.
Depends on why the reason they don't tell people they're gay, and (in my opinion) it's probably because they're terrified of the reactions. I mean why would you come out and then put up with the sneering, ridicule and humiliation from the homophobes? It takes a very brave person to come out, and that's what I think the poster meant when he/see said it should be a cause for celebration.
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I have faith that Villa fans would be completely supportive of any player who came out. In fact I am certain of it. We have flaws but we are a progressive bunch.
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I have faith that Villa fans would be completely supportive of any player who came out. In fact I am certain of it. We have flaws but we are a progressive bunch.
I have no doubt that the massive majority would as well, but even 5% of a crowd can make enough noise to make a difference. We haven't totally managed to stamp out racism yet despite players of all colours and nationalities playing in increasing numbers for decades, what chance of stamping out homophobia when it is still considered funny and, yes, "bantz" to make jokes about someone's sexuality?
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It's more to do with acceptance within the dressing room than the terraces. It's the preserve of grown up boys and jokes about tits, Fannies and calling players who moan 'girls' or ' poofs' or such like. It isn't meant of course but the discourse of the football dressing room sadly isn't the preserve of Libertarians but of 7 year-old kids from the playground. That's the difficulty.
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Could be wrong .but guessing 2001-2 ish.Pray tell,what happened ? (Genuine question)
Some internet nonsense rumour about him and Will Young, and it was open season.
Didn't he get sent off after about half an hour?
Taken off with an "injury". Looked visibly upset from where I was sitting.
Happened to Sol Campbell as well. I was threatened in the L Holte for challenging homophobic chanting
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This is interesting: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/nov/08/english-football-tolerates-homophobia-john-amaechi-tells-mps
Surely if a Villa player was to be the first high profile pro to come out (while still playing) then we'd overwhelmingly think of that as a cause for celebration . Obviously it's difficult for the individual concerned to become a standard bearer but I think that a positive response to the first one to do it would quickly mean that more would do it?
Isn't being gay something natural, rather than an achievement to celebrate? A footballer's sexuality hasn't really got anything to do with the people who have come to watch them play football, it's none of our business. I'm not even sure why they might feel the need to tell us. So what, big deal - just train hard and win games.
Depends on why the reason they don't tell people they're gay, and (in my opinion) it's probably because they're terrified of the reactions. I mean why would you come out and then put up with the sneering, ridicule and humiliation from the homophobes? It takes a very brave person to come out, and that's what I think the poster meant when he/see said it should be a cause for celebration.
Well I'm terrified of the reactions I'd get for 'coming out' (even on a Villa forum), so I don't blame the gay soccerballers for keeping sctum. 'Tis a veritable death sentence, I tell thee!
:P
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I hate the word homophobia. It may be a phobia to some, but I doubt the majority. Some people are just nasty. Lord knows what I'd call it though.
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I hate the word homophobia. It may be a phobia to some, but I doubt the majority. Some people are just nasty. Lord knows what I'd call it though.
Ignorance
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Could be wrong .but guessing 2001-2 ish.Pray tell,what happened ? (Genuine question)
Some internet nonsense rumour about him and Will Young, and it was open season.
Didn't he get sent off after about half an hour?
Taken off with an "injury". Looked visibly upset from where I was sitting.
Happened to Sol Campbell as well. I was threatened in the L Holte for challenging homophobic chanting
That chant the Spurs fans came up with for him was just about the most offensive thing I've heard.
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I hate the word homophobia. It may be a phobia to some, but I doubt the majority. Some people are just nasty. Lord knows what I'd call it though.
It medicalises an opinion - it's not a phobia
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I for one shall warmly applaud the first gay footballer to come out during their career.
I think it smacks of cowardice that no one is prepared to lead the way for young teenagers struggling with such a brave decision themselves.
But that's just my opinion.
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I for one shall warmly applaud the first gay footballer to come out during their career.
I think it smacks of cowardice that no one is prepared to lead the way for young teenagers struggling with such a brave decision themselves.
But that's just my opinion.
And unless you've had a similar decision to wrestle with, how could you possibly understand how hard it is?
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I for one shall warmly applaud the first gay footballer to come out during their career.
I think it smacks of cowardice that no one is prepared to lead the way for young teenagers struggling with such a brave decision themselves.
But that's just my opinion.
And unless you've had a similar decision to wrestle with, how could you possibly understand how hard it is?
I don't doubt for one moment it's the hardest decision a bloke can make, but plumbers make it, chefs make it, postmen make it; but millionaire footballers must be kept in glass cabinets.
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Chefs don't work in the same environment and wouldn't have tens of thousands of people screaming abuse at them.
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Chefs don't work in the same environment and wouldn't have tens of thousands of people screaming abuse at them.
You're right - they tend to be the ones screaming abuse.
Ground breaking decision for the first footballer to make but one that embarrasses the whole of football until someone has the bottle to do it.
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I for one shall warmly applaud the first gay footballer to come out during their career.
Justin Fashanu came out during his career back in 1990.
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Chefs don't work in the same environment and wouldn't have tens of thousands of people screaming abuse at them.
You're right - they tend to be the ones screaming abuse.
Ground breaking decision for the first footballer to make but one that embarrasses the whole of football until someone has the bottle to do it.
It's a complicated subject. Without wishing to stereotype, I can see why it's a much easier decision if you're say, an advertising executive in London than a reserve defender for Burnley. Is football any worse than other male-dominated industries?
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It's a complicated subject. Without wishing to stereotype, I can see why it's a much easier decision if you're say, an advertising executive in London than a reserve defender for Burnley. Is football any worse than other male-dominated industries?
Exactly because in no other industry do you have thousands of booze-filled, adrenaline fuelled, predominantly male people watching your every move, and like it or not football fans are not exactly the most PC demographic are they?
Look, my brother is gay, it took him years to even come out to his family never mind his workmates and the wider world, and he was just an advertising clerk for a travel company. Unless you have the experience I really don't think you can judge how difficult it is even in these more enlightened times, possibly even more so given the events of the last few months and the green light these events seem to have given to the bigots of this world.
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It's a complicated subject. Without wishing to stereotype, I can see why it's a much easier decision if you're say, an advertising executive in London than a reserve defender for Burnley. Is football any worse than other male-dominated industries?
Exactly because in no other industry do you have thousands of booze-filled, adrenaline fuelled, predominantly male people watching your every move, and like it or not football fans are not exactly the most PC demographic are they?
Look, my brother is gay, it took him years to even come out to his family never mind his workmates and the wider world, and he was just an advertising clerk for a travel company. Unless you have the experience I really don't think you can judge how difficult it is even in these more enlightened times, possibly even more so given the events of the last few months and the green light these events seem to have given to the bigots of this world.
Do you think it might have been easier for him if there were several if not dozens of high profile professional footballers who'd been brave enough to be honest with their adoring fans over the last decade?
I have several adult sides that I'm involved with, odds are some of my own players are struggling to make a decision to come out which could be much easier on them if the pro game showed some bottle.
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It's a complicated subject. Without wishing to stereotype, I can see why it's a much easier decision if you're say, an advertising executive in London than a reserve defender for Burnley. Is football any worse than other male-dominated industries?
Exactly because in no other industry do you have thousands of booze-filled, adrenaline fuelled, predominantly male people watching your every move, and like it or not football fans are not exactly the most PC demographic are they?
Look, my brother is gay, it took him years to even come out to his family never mind his workmates and the wider world, and he was just an advertising clerk for a travel company. Unless you have the experience I really don't think you can judge how difficult it is even in these more enlightened times, possibly even more so given the events of the last few months and the green light these events seem to have given to the bigots of this world.
Do you think it might have been easier for him if there were several if not dozens of high profile professional footballers who'd been brave enough to be honest with their adoring fans over the last decade?
I have several adult sides that I'm involved with, odds are some of my own players are struggling to make a decision to come out which could be much easier on them if the pro game showed some bottle.
So you're suggesting they're the cowards for not coming out?
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I would suggest the pro game itself should be pro sexual choice, back anyone who wishes to come out and help educate fans about what it means. Its hardly cowardice to think you are being thrown to the lions, more self preservation. When has Match of the day spoken about it in general or sky sports?
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I really don't like the angle you're taking here, Eddie. Undeniably it would take considerable bravery for a professional footballer to come out, but it's incredibly harsh to label someone a coward for not doing so. It's a huge decision for someone to make, it's no one else's place to judge how easy it is or when it should happen. You seem to be saying that gay players have a duty to come out for the sake of others, and to not do so is a selfish choice. I think that's grossly unfair. I don't think that attitude helps at all.
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I really don't like the angle you're taking here, Eddie. Undeniably it would take considerable bravery for a professional footballer to come out, but it's incredibly harsh to label someone a coward for not doing so. It's a huge decision for someone to make, it's no one else's place to judge how easy it is or when it should happen. You seem to be saying that gay players have a duty to come out for the sake of others, and to not do so is a selfish choice. I think that's grossly unfair. I don't think that attitude helps at all.
Agree totally.
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I have several adult sides that I'm involved with, odds are some of my own players are struggling to make a decision to come out which could be much easier on them if the pro game showed some bottle.
No doubt, but put yourself in the shoes of a gay professional footballer (if you possibly can) who has seen what happened to the only player to come out (Justin Fashanu) and also the disgusting abuse the likes of Upson and Le Saux got even though neither were actually even gay.
Would you do it? You might say yes, but then you aren't gay (I presume?).
Ultimately it really shouldn't matter, and gay footballers should just say "Yes I'm gay" and we'd all shrug like the decent folk we mostly are, but it won't happen like that and deep down we all know it.
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I shudder to think what the daily mail's reaction would be like.
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I have faith that Villa fans would be completely supportive of any player who came out. In fact I am certain of it. We have flaws but we are a progressive bunch.
I have no doubt that the massive majority would as well, but even 5% of a crowd can make enough noise to make a difference. We haven't totally managed to stamp out racism yet despite players of all colours and nationalities playing in increasing numbers for decades, what chance of stamping out homophobia when it is still considered funny and, yes, "bantz" to make jokes about someone's sexuality?
Honestly I have not been to a Villa game in a couple of years (overseas) but I did not hear any racist comments from Villa fans at the games I did attend for many many years. Other clubs, yes (I am looking at you Millwall), but not our fans. Maybe I was just lucky by seating?
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I have faith that Villa fans would be completely supportive of any player who came out. In fact I am certain of it. We have flaws but we are a progressive bunch.
I have no doubt that the massive majority would as well, but even 5% of a crowd can make enough noise to make a difference. We haven't totally managed to stamp out racism yet despite players of all colours and nationalities playing in increasing numbers for decades, what chance of stamping out homophobia when it is still considered funny and, yes, "bantz" to make jokes about someone's sexuality?
Honestly I have not been to a Villa game in a couple of years (overseas) but I did not hear any racist comments from Villa fans at the games I did attend for many many years. Other clubs, yes (I am looking at you Millwall), but not our fans. Maybe I was just lucky by seating?
I think (hope) we are better than most, I'm not a regular down VP by any means but at the only game I have been to this season I heard a opposition player referred to loudly as a "dirty black twat" after he fouled one of our players. He was loudly tutted at and I never heard a peep from him after but there you go. But yes, we have mostly managed to get rid of racism at football in this country, and that should be applauded. Now we need the admirable Kick It Out campaign to keep on keeping on to rid us of homophobia as well.
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Justin Fashanu came out nearly thirty years ago and in that time attitudes towards homosexuality have changed enormously.
It's up to football to break it's own taboo and someone has to be brave enough to be the first.
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You keep going on about bravery Eddie, and you're still implying that not coming out is cowardly. Do you actually know any gay people? Only I think you're showing a complete lack of understanding and compassion about a really sensitive subject.
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You keep going on about bravery Eddie, and you're still implying that not coming out is cowardly. Do you actually know any gay people? Only I think you're showing a complete lack of understanding and compassion about a really sensitive subject.
I know a lot of gay people - they're the bravest people I know.
It's tough as fuck for a young lad to come out in a small town and I've nothing but respect for lads and lasses who made that choice over the last decade or so.
I think they and future generations are being let down until and gay football players and football itself faces its perceived intolerance.
If the times not right now, when will it be right?
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You keep going on about bravery Eddie, and you're still implying that not coming out is cowardly. Do you actually know any gay people? Only I think you're showing a complete lack of understanding and compassion about a really sensitive subject.
I know a lot of gay people - they're the bravest people I know.
It's tough as fuck for a young lad to come out in a small town and I've nothing but respect for lads and lasses who made that choice over the last decade or so.
I think they and future generations are being let down until and gay football players and football itself faces its perceived intolerance.
If the times not right now, when will it be right?
When the people who are making that decision decide for it to be so.
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You keep going on about bravery Eddie, and you're still implying that not coming out is cowardly. Do you actually know any gay people? Only I think you're showing a complete lack of understanding and compassion about a really sensitive subject.
I know a lot of gay people - they're the bravest people I know.
It's tough as fuck for a young lad to come out in a small town and I've nothing but respect for lads and lasses who made that choice over the last decade or so.
I think they and future generations are being let down until and gay football players and football itself faces its perceived intolerance.
If the times not right now, when will it be right?
When the people who are making that decision decide for it to be so.
This. With bells on.
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'Gay footballers linked with house price crash.'
In capitals, of course.
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The whole debate is just out of my reasoning when thinking purely in work terms. I work at a big firm with thousands of employees. The notion that someone's preference sexually should be something to hide just isn't something I have experienced in 15 years there. If someone raised an issue of their sexuality being a reason they were treated differently it would hold no credible argument. There is an awful lot of things in the world I could get upset about before someone liking the same sex.
My sister is a rug muncher (to use her oft told description) and I don't think it has ever bothered a member of our family a jot with the possible exclusion of the old gits who find it all very odd.
What I can say on the coming out thing though is she was 25 before she "confessed" to what we all kind of knew from years before anyway. In that time (and other stuff was involved) she fucked herself up that much mentally wrestling with this secret she tried to kill herself twice and at one point didn't leave the house for 3 years.
I don't get it that people at our firm should have working conditions that stop them coming out. The prejudice just isnt there. Bitter experience with Emma tells me different though.
Would I trail blaze if I were a footballer? Would I fuck.
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So pertinent to this, and the post match thread, what did 'we', I struggle typing that, sing at Brighton?
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Lots of Villa songs, some not very nice ones about the neighbours, one usually reserved for the other Bitter neighbours and then one mocking their part timers for only owing to see us.
Why?
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I'm guessing because some groups of travelling supporters are known to sing fairly dickish songs at Brighton that they don't sing elsewhere.
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Villa's police Twitter page tweeted this during the match;
#avfc #utv Homophobic chants and gestures will NOT be tolerated. Officers are filming offenders and arrests/summons will b made
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Villa's police Twitter page tweeted this during the match;
#avfc #utv Homophobic chants and gestures will NOT be tolerated. Officers are filming offenders and arrests/summons will b made
Good
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Transplanted from the Brighton post match thread:
6 hours to get to the match from Birmingham. Hey ho.
Villa deserved to win.
2 1/4 hours to get back home.
Favourite chant.
We can see you,
We can see you,
Holding hands,
Holding hands.
The away Villa fans are fantastic. I salute all of you.
There may be other clubs that have better away support than the Villa.
But not many.
Did you just celebrate a homophobic chant?
Did we really sing that???
I'll let others say what I'm thinking.
A man at the front had an unpleasant chant suggesting where an item that could be purchased at Ann Summers could be placed. In fairness he did stop when someone politely remonstrated with him. Homophobia hasn't gone away.
That sounded quite an isolated incident, and respect to the fact that that it got challenged.
I think my concern is what seemed by all accounts such a positive night for the club could be tainted by the fact that yes homophobia hadn't just not gone away, but was expressed, by Villa fans. I think I have an unrealistic idea that, well as we say it on here sometimes 'we are better than that'.
I'll copy this whole post to the seperate homophobia thread to leave this one to be about the football, but just to explain I felt sad/concerned that maybe that'd it had been more prevalent?
And then found it bizarre to read someone writing about enjoying it. I guess that's the bit that shocked me.
Replies to that other thread maybe?
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Transplanted from the Brighton post match thread:
6 hours to get to the match from Birmingham. Hey ho.
Villa deserved to win.
2 1/4 hours to get back home.
Favourite chant.
We can see you,
We can see you,
Holding hands,
Holding hands.
The away Villa fans are fantastic. I salute all of you.
There may be other clubs that have better away support than the Villa.
But not many.
Did you just celebrate a homophobic chant?
Did we really sing that???
I'll let others say what I'm thinking.
A man at the front had an unpleasant chant suggesting where an item that could be purchased at Ann Summers could be placed. In fairness he did stop when someone politely remonstrated with him. Homophobia hasn't gone away.
That sounded quite an isolated incident, and respect to the fact that that it got challenged.
I think my concern is what seemed by all accounts such a positive night for the club could be tainted by the fact that yes homophobia hadn't just not gone away, but was expressed, by Villa fans. I think I have an unrealistic idea that, well as we say it on here sometimes 'we are better than that'.
I'll copy this whole post to the seperate homophobia thread to leave this one to be about the football, but just to explain I felt sad/concerned that maybe that'd it had been more prevalent?
And then found it bizarre to read someone writing about enjoying it. I guess that's the bit that shocked me.
Replies to that other thread maybe?
It was interesting to here Matt Lucas say that he liked that chant and found it rather witty, or something to that effect not so long ago.
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Chants like the above are why football is still so far behind the times. There are still enough idiots who will cease on anything they see as a 'weakness' and make up a song about it.
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Am I right in thinking that our very own Thomas Hitzlsberger came out at the end of his career; not very long ago. It says something about the 'industry' that he waited until he was out to out himself.
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I think Brighton regularly have away fans sing that at them.
I think it's more humorous than homophobic but I could be wrong on that...
On the gay player.....if Hitz had come out as gay while he played for us I couldn't believe he wouldn't have got massive support from all at the ground (given he was a very popular player for us).
But it's when you go to away grounds you worry given the partisan atmospheres so I can understand why players would wait until they retire and then come out.
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Lots of Villa songs, some not very nice ones about the neighbours, one usually reserved for the other Bitter neighbours and then one mocking their part timers for only owing to see us.
Why?
Brighton regularly sell out so we should've stuck to the holding hands song!
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Aware there will be different takes and thresholds around this, one man's humour is another's prejudicial abuse, but I think in the context of this whole thread, and some not understanding why sadly a player still might not come out, this (our) opposition fan response is exactly that.
I think context and intention is relevant in humour. I do buy the idea that intention might be no more than very gentle teasing/humour and get the Lucas response (can't remember if he's into footy to have potentially experienced it as a crowd/big response). I'm also aware my threshold for what I will and won't sing is different to others, but it's the nature of majority influence that what starts off light easily escalates from beyond what is intended by some, and permits worse. I've challenged racist chanting before and decided a year or two back I'd hope to do the same in this area. Glad to hear some challenging went on Friday, this is where change has to happen?
Still curious how much of it there was, it seems it wasn't as bad as I'd feared.
A bit of googling and an Independent (https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/football-league/brighton-fans-call-for-action-after-releasing-details-of-alleged-homophobic-abuse-8558621.html%3Famp) report lists in 2013 season 70% of clubs singing what are perceived at least by some as homophobic chants at Brighton, and a Brighton blog (http://bjournal.co/we-can-see-you-holding-hands-why-football-isnt-for-everyone/) reviews that and goes on to link to a description via the Brighton Supporters club (https://m.facebook.com/111591292197813/photos/a.166652320025043.40579.111591292197813/1214187431938188/?type=3&theater) of the away leg of their play off at Hillsborough this year. Pretty scary to read of 70+ yr old woman getting punched etc and other assault, equally/more shocking to read of an unbelievable homophobic question asked by South Yorkshire Police in response.
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Aware there will be different takes and thresholds around this, one man's humour is another's prejudicial abuse, but I think in the context of this whole thread, and some not understanding why sadly a player still might not come out, this (our) opposition fan response is exactly that.
I think context and intention is relevant in humour. I do buy the idea that intention might be no more than very gentle teasing/humour and get the Lucas response (can't remember if he's into footy to have potentially experienced it as a crowd/big response). I'm also aware my threshold for what I will and won't sing is different to others, but it's the nature of majority influence that what starts off light easily escalates from beyond what is intended by some, and permits worse. I've challenged racist chanting before and decided a year or two back I'd hope to do the same in this area. Glad to hear some challenging went on Friday, this is where change has to happen?
Still curious how much of it there was, it seems it wasn't as bad as I'd feared.
A bit of googling and an Independent (https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/football-league/brighton-fans-call-for-action-after-releasing-details-of-alleged-homophobic-abuse-8558621.html%3Famp) report lists in 2013 season 70% of clubs singing what are perceived at least by some as homophobic chants at Brighton, and a Brighton blog (http://bjournal.co/we-can-see-you-holding-hands-why-football-isnt-for-everyone/) reviews that and goes on to link to a description via the Brighton Supporters club (https://m.facebook.com/111591292197813/photos/a.166652320025043.40579.111591292197813/1214187431938188/?type=3&theater) of the away leg of their play off at Hillsborough this year. Pretty scary to read of 70+ yr old woman getting punched etc and other assault, equally/more shocking to read of an unbelievable homophobic question asked by South Yorkshire Police in response.
Good post. Regards Lucas, he's a huge Arsenal fan by all accounts. What I also have a greater issue with than a song about Holding Hands, is chants about social classes or being poor etc. Yet no body every gives a toss about that.
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Yep, take your point about other themes, as I've said I don't join in with stuff I don't like, so mainly just pro-villa and as somebody else said in the post match thread, that can mean you miss out quite a lot!
I'm fully aware that others will react against my views, accusations of sterile atmosphere, too PC etc. I grew up with terrace humour and wouldn't want to lose that.
I don't remember if I'd ever heard of the "We can see you holding hands" chant before. I can imagine being at the match, unexpectedly hearing it, part of me smiling as I see the humour, but then part of me re-coiling at the same time. Reading it cold on here surprised me and made me feel uncomfortable. I trust that feeling and my judgement.
It is progress this chant (I don't see any need to even go there) is much milder than what we've heard in the past, and isn't seen as a problem by some of different orientations. But despite Matt Lucas' view, it simply is still is seen as a problem by some gay & straight people.
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Just doing a bit of research and it seems a semi pro footballer called Liam Davis came out about 18 months back for Gainsborough Trinity.
Dunno whether he plays anymore for them but I note they played in Tamworth's league so be interested from Coops if there was any reaction if he played at Tamworth or was it along the lines of no-one gave a s***.
Probably as brave to come out down there as at the top level as with the low crowds you can certainly here all the comments from the terraces.
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Just doing a bit of research and it seems a semi pro footballer called Liam Davis came out about 18 months back for Gainsborough Trinity.
Dunno whether he plays anymore for them but I note they played in Tamworth's league so be interested from Coops if there was any reaction if he played at Tamworth or was it along the lines of no-one gave a s***.
Probably as brave to come out down there as at the top level as with the low crowds you can certainly here all the comments from the terraces.
Likely wasn't common knowledge i'd imagine.
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Peter Kay in homophobia outrage (http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/38043653/people-are-angry-the-comedian-made-jokes-about-judge-rinder-during-his-surprise-appearance-on-strictly)
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A really interesting debate.
What I think would be noticeable in the money-obsessed world of top flight football, is the commercial opportunities that would present themselves to the first high-profile Premier League player to come out. I would imagine that sports brands would be falling over themselves to have him in their stable, especially those who consider themselves more out-there with regard to inclusion of minorities, and his agent would be rubbing his hands at the other deals likely to present themselves.
I'm not saying that this would be the sole reason, but I think a likely scenario would be after one gay player is seen to be reaping the commercial rewards, others will soon follow in coming out.
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I didn't hear anything but then I'm not in the North stand lower which I assume this came from. Hope they get life bans if proven.
Article....Villa ParkImage copyrightGOOGLE
Image caption
Police say they are investigating after the chants were reported by stewards
A football fan says she was reduced to tears after being subjected to homophobic abuse at a match at Villa Park.
Middlesbrough fan Carol Smith said a handful of fans chanted at her for half an hour as she watched her side play Aston Villa with her wife Stacey on Tuesday.
West Midlands Police is investigating, but said no arrests have been made.
The force said: "Some people were spoken to and their details taken."
Mrs Smith, 35, from Birmingham, said she was sat in the away stand next to the home fans in the North Stand when "they [the home fans] just started picking on me".
'Heartbreaking'
"I laughed it off first time and the second time, but it turned out to be for 30 minutes continuous that they kept singing it so I just got a bit upset."
She said the treatment had put her off attending future matches.
"It took away the win, I came out of there and felt like we'd been battered 10-nil, I was really deflated," she added.
"It's just so heartbreaking to hear it."
Middlesbrough won the Carabao Cup third round match 2-0.
The BBC has contacted Aston Villa for comment.
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sounds like a storm in a D cup to me - football fans baiting rival fans is par for the course.
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There's a difference between taking the piss out a football team and singing personal abuse to one lady. Not on.
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Well as we dont know what they were chanting it makes it a bit difficult to judge, on one hand she may have taken it out of context or on the other it could have been really vicious.
You can be sure we'd certainly not be putting up with it if it were racist.
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Sadly 100% Vila.
Reminds me of a number of uncomfortable incidents of singling out an individual for varying reasons.
The sad effect of majority influenc?
Most wouldn't go up to the individual 1:1 and give the same abuse. No reason why being part of a crowd makes you less responsible. More so perhaps given the collective impact. .
Police probe homophobic chants at Aston Villa match (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-41355239)
Police say they are investigating after the chants were reported by stewards
A football fan says she was reduced to tears after being subjected to homophobic abuse at a match at Villa Park.
Middlesbrough fan Carol Smith said a handful of fans chanted at her for half an hour as she watched her side play Aston Villa with her wife Stacey on Tuesday.
West Midlands Police is investigating, but said no arrests have been made.
The force said: "Some people were spoken to and their details taken."
Mrs Smith, 35, from Birmingham, said she was sat in the away stand next to the home fans in the North Stand when "they [the home fans] just started picking on me".
'Heartbreaking'
"I laughed it off first time and the second time, but it turned out to be for 30 minutes continuous that they kept singing it so I just got a bit upset."
She said the treatment had put her off attending future matches.
"It took away the win, I came out of there and felt like we'd been battered 10-nil, I was really deflated," she added.
"It's just so heartbreaking to hear it."
Middlesbrough won the Carabao Cup third round match 2-0.
The BBC has contacted Aston Villa for comment.
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sounds like a storm in a D cup to me - football fans baiting rival fans is par for the course.
Yeah, just like black supporters shouldn't get all uppity if people want to make monkey noises at them.
It's only baiting rival fans after all.
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Well merged admin forgot about this thread....As I said hope they get lifetime bans.
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Well as we dont know what they were chanting it makes it a bit difficult to judge, on one hand she may have taken it out of context or on the other it could have been really vicious.
You can be sure we'd certainly not be putting up with it if it were racist.
Exactly. Where was this chanting coming from as well? Their small pocket of support was relatively far away from the North Stand and there was hardly anybody in the Doug Ellis Stand, so I'd be interested to hear where it was coming from and exactly what was being chanted before I rush to condemn anyone.
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It is bad and wrong and needs to be stamped out but you can bet your mortgage that the FA are much more likely to punish us for it than they are to punish Manchester United fans for singing about the size of a black man's penis.
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it is Brian and i wasn't condoning it - merely pointing out that shit happens in football grounds as anyone attending on a regular basis knows - including the ever right on/PC Dave.
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There's a difference between taking the piss out a football team and singing personal abuse to one lady. Not on.
This
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it is Brian and i wasn't condoning it - merely pointing out that shit happens in football grounds as anyone attending on a regular basis knows - including the ever right on/PC Dave.
Shit happens so it's alright to be sexist, homophobic and if you disagree you're just being PC.
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Why would you want to pick on someone anyway if this is indeed true? Sometimes human nature really is shit.
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Why would you want to pick on someone anyway if this is indeed true? Sometimes human nature really is shit.
Again, has there been any clarification about exactly what went on? It sounds like we are being led to believe that some Villa fans (again doesn't say where they were seated) spotted two women sitting next to each other 30 yards away, immediately assumed they were gay and began abusing them. That was obviously enough to convince the BBC that was the case and they could drag the club's name through the mud again.
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Getting a bit Millwall with the "the media are out to get us" defence. If some of our fans didn't act like twats, they'd have nothing to criticise them for. Singling out fans for homophobic abuse is scumbag behaviour and we would, rightly, lay into any other group of supporters that did it.
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Those fans in the corner of the North right by the away section are always baiting the away fans.
I don't know how true this is but there isn't huge distance between the two sections so I imagine the words used would be pretty audible.
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Getting a bit Millwall with the "the media are out to get us" defence. If some of our fans didn't act like twats, they'd have nothing to criticise them for. Singling out fans for homophobic abuse is scumbag behaviour and we would, rightly, lay into any other group of supporters that did it.
Agree, but only if the facts had been clearly established first.
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Those fans in the corner of the North right by the away section are always baiting the away fans.
I don't know how true this is but there isn't huge distance between the two sections so I imagine the words used would be pretty audible.
There was a bigger distance than usual on Tuesday.
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Those fans in the corner of the North right by the away section are always baiting the away fans.
I don't know how true this is but there isn't huge distance between the two sections so I imagine the words used would be pretty audible.
I had a season ticket in the lower North with my son from 2012 up to 2016 and whilst the proximity to the away fans leads to plenty of chants and gestures both ways I wasn't aware of anything racist or homophobic.
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it is Brian and i wasn't condoning it - merely pointing out that shit happens in football grounds as anyone attending on a regular basis knows - including the ever right on/PC Dave.
Yeah, bloody PC brigade. It's always them stopping us laughing at the poofters and the darkies. They should probably just lighten up and join in the banter.
Calling it "par for the course" absolutely is condoning it. Obviously.
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it is Brian and i wasn't condoning it - merely pointing out that shit happens in football grounds as anyone attending on a regular basis knows - including the ever right on/PC Dave.
Yeah, bloody PC brigade. It's always them stopping us laughing at the poofters and the darkies. They should probably just lighten up and join in the banter.
Calling it "par for the course" absolutely is condoning it. Obviously.
Are you party to what was being chanted and from where Dave?
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it is Brian and i wasn't condoning it - merely pointing out that shit happens in football grounds as anyone attending on a regular basis knows - including the ever right on/PC Dave.
Yeah, bloody PC brigade. It's always them stopping us laughing at the poofters and the darkies. They should probably just lighten up and join in the banter.
Calling it "par for the course" absolutely is condoning it. Obviously.
Are you party to what was being chanted and from where Dave?
No - and from what has been posted, nor had the person who has already decided that it's not something of any importance.
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Recently, Project B6 wanted to do a rainbow flag to symbolise that Villa is a gay friendly club and there were loads calling it completely unnecessary. Homophobia is far from endemic at Villa Park, but accounts like this do back up the need to make it clear where we stand as a club, and as a set of supporters. We need to send a clear message to the idiot minority that it is they that are unwelcome at Villa Park (or with our travelling support).
I particularly liked the idea of a 'Part of the Pride' surfer in rainbow colours. Neat.
Interesting that those whose response to this flag appeal was to ask why we weren't having one for Remembrance Day, seem to have disappeared now Project B6 are trying to raise money for one for Remembrance Day.
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I'm guessing because some groups of travelling supporters are known to sing fairly dickish songs at Brighton that they don't sing elsewhere.
I watch Brighton at the AMEX very often.
Rarely does a rival group of fans not have some sort of "does your boyfriend know you're here" chant.
It is not as bad as it once was by any means, and recently they have been ejecting people from the stadium for these kind of chants, but it isn't uncommon.
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You can't say anything these days.
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There is probably as good a case for flying a Catalan flag as they battle for a referendum. Many brave British men and women died fighting fascism in Spain. The writer George Orwell, very much in vogue, and his wife were both wounded in action.
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There is probably as good a case for flying a Catalan flag as they battle for a referendum. Many brave British men and women died fighting fascism in Spain. The writer George Orwell, very much in vogue, and his wife were both wounded in action.
Interesting.....and now many British fascists live in Spain - but they're not immigrants.
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I would love to see a Catalan flag surf across the Holte. Spain has taken the things past the point of no return with their bullying of Catalunya.
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A fair few I daresay but those who saw the evils of fascism in the 1930s were a very different breed from those who today see every kind of intolerance, post Brexit referendum, as taking our country back. That momentous day on the 23rd June was seen as legitimisation of every form of bigotry including homophobia at football matches.
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It is bad and wrong and needs to be stamped out but you can bet your mortgage that the FA are much more likely to punish us for it than they are to punish Manchester United fans for singing about the size of a black man's penis.
They might Brian, but I've heard our supporters singing a song on a similar theme about Kodjia more than once.
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Well as we dont know what they were chanting it makes it a bit difficult to judge, on one hand she may have taken it out of context or on the other it could have been really vicious.
You can be sure we'd certainly not be putting up with it if it were racist.
Exactly. Where was this chanting coming from as well? Their small pocket of support was relatively far away from the North Stand and there was hardly anybody in the Doug Ellis Stand, so I'd be interested to hear where it was coming from and exactly what was being chanted before I rush to condemn anyone.
It was described as 'homophobic' I'm not sure you need to details to understand the sort of thing that was actually said. It sounds like it was sustained chanting as well. The context is relevant to her, and if she was upset by it then she has every right to express that.
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I'm guessing because some groups of travelling supporters are known to sing fairly dickish songs at Brighton that they don't sing elsewhere.
I watch Brighton at the AMEX very often.
Rarely does a rival group of fans not have some sort of "does your boyfriend know you're here" chant.
It is not as bad as it once was by any means, and recently they have been ejecting people from the stadium for these kind of chants, but it isn't uncommon.
Not particularly relevant to the main point of this thread but I was told years ago (it was 1998 as it was my stag weekend) that Blackpool had overtaken Brighton as the gay hotspot of England. A couple of years later four of us stayed at a very much gay friendly hotel in Blackpool run by two gay Brummies. Our one mate who wasn't fussed about the lively pub/club scene in the town ended up at a gay all night party with them. We couldn't help wondering whether our heterosexual, masculine six foot plus, well built, unshaven mate was the star attraction at the party.
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You can't say anything these days.
Well you can if you want too, it depends what sort of person you are.
I'm sure if this lady in question was being singled out and bullied by a crowd of football fans because of her shape, size, gender, colour, sexuality or anything else personal it was bang out of order.
It's horrible and cruel.
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Why would you want to pick on someone anyway if this is indeed true? Sometimes human nature really is shit.
Again, has there been any clarification about exactly what went on? It sounds like we are being led to believe that some Villa fans (again doesn't say where they were seated) spotted two women sitting next to each other 30 yards away, immediately assumed they were gay and began abusing them. That was obviously enough to convince the BBC that was the case and they could drag the club's name through the mud again.
Reading that BBC report it states that the lady in question was sitting with her wife and that she's from Birmingham. If what is being reported is true, then it's quite possible that someone in the home section possibly knew her which could have prompted the unnecessary and disgusting outburst. It only needs one moron to start something that other morons find funny and you then have a recipe for trouble.
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Well I for one have left a Villa fans Facebook group as some of the comments on there are quite moronic and disgusting. Some of the shit they were supposed to of been singing was very personal and it's been met with smiley faces, laughing faces and thumbs up. I only joined that FB group so I could watch the odd live stream, but I'd rather not.
I know there are some right chav twats that follow football but I'd rather stay as far away from them as possible.
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Why would you want to pick on someone anyway if this is indeed true? Sometimes human nature really is shit.
Again, has there been any clarification about exactly what went on? It sounds like we are being led to believe that some Villa fans (again doesn't say where they were seated) spotted two women sitting next to each other 30 yards away, immediately assumed they were gay and began abusing them. That was obviously enough to convince the BBC that was the case and they could drag the club's name through the mud again.
Reported by a steward who would be employed by us and probably a Villa fan so let's not blame the BBC.
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Whether true or not some of the reactions I see in social media shows how many ignorant, insensitive, worthless twats are around.
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Whether true or not some of the reactions I see in social media shows how many ignorant, insensitive, worthless twats are around.
Are you able to give any examples of what was being said from that page Ian?
Tom was worried that nobody has said what was going on, so would presumably be good to get the context.
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Whether true or not some of the reactions I see in social media shows how many ignorant, insensitive, worthless twats are around.
Villa fan groups on Facebook are a disgrace. Trying not to be precious but I get loads of racist abuse if I say anything negative about the manager or players.
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Whether true or not some of the reactions I see in social media shows how many ignorant, insensitive, worthless twats are around.
Are you able to give any examples of what was being said from that page Ian?
Tom was worried that nobody has said what was going on, so would presumably be good to get the context.
I should have screen shot it really.
Basically someone posted a comment regarding the alleged report. There was a few throw away insensitive comments not too different to this thread but someone posted what was sung. Which was to do with her weight, appearance and sexuality which was received with laughing faces and some quite nasty remarks.
As I said earlier whether it happened or not there is enough shit on that Facebook page to leave a very nasty taste and to lose a little faith in humanity.
To be honest I should have left that group a while ago as whenever it pops up on my feed I have to cringe at many topics. It's just something I've been scrolling on past until now.
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Why would you want to pick on someone anyway if this is indeed true? Sometimes human nature really is shit.
Again, has there been any clarification about exactly what went on? It sounds like we are being led to believe that some Villa fans (again doesn't say where they were seated) spotted two women sitting next to each other 30 yards away, immediately assumed they were gay and began abusing them. That was obviously enough to convince the BBC that was the case and they could drag the club's name through the mud again.
Reading that BBC report it states that the lady in question was sitting with her wife and that she's from Birmingham. If what is being reported is true, then it's quite possible that someone in the home section possibly knew her which could have prompted the unnecessary and disgusting outburst. It only needs one moron to start something that other morons find funny and you then have a recipe for trouble.
That is a massive assumption.
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I've heard our supporters singing a song on a similar theme[to the Lukaku one] about Kodjia more than once.
No takers on this?
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Whether true or not some of the reactions I see in social media shows how many ignorant, insensitive, worthless twats are around.
Are you able to give any examples of what was being said from that page Ian?
Tom was worried that nobody has said what was going on, so would presumably be good to get the context.
What I am concerned about is the BBC and other media outlets dragging the name of our club and supporters through the mud. It doesn't say in the article that there were only a few people involved, it doesn't say it was in a very small section of the ground and it doesn't say how it all came about. The article and the woman's comments tar Villa fans in general and having been there on Tuesday night and not been involved in any sort of homophobic chanting, I think that is unjust.
Again, having been there on Tuesday night, there was only a small pocket of Middlesbrough fans and they were quite a way from the North Stand. How was she picked out and from where?
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I'm guessing because some groups of travelling supporters are known to sing fairly dickish songs at Brighton that they don't sing elsewhere.
I watch Brighton at the AMEX very often.
Rarely does a rival group of fans not have some sort of "does your boyfriend know you're here" chant.
It is not as bad as it once was by any means, and recently they have been ejecting people from the stadium for these kind of chants, but it isn't uncommon.
I attended a Leeds vs Brighton match about 10 or so years ago and the Leeds fans delighted in singing “you’re just a town full of faggots” for what felt like the entire match.
We’re getting there in eradicating racism in football but eradicating homophobia is lagging far behind because it still goes on. It’s good to see the FA finally getting their act together though.
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I've heard our supporters singing a song on a similar theme[to the Lukaku one] about Kodjia more than once.
No takers on this?
That's extremely poor as well.
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I've heard our supporters singing a song on a similar theme[to the Lukaku one] about Kodjia more than once.
No takers on this?
That's extremely poor as well.
It's a fucking disgrace, is what it is. Particularly with the added misogyny of the 'and now she's dead' line.
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Not saying it's right but Brighton fans have chants aimed at them every week and nothing is said or done. Now two women have complained about a few chants and it's in the press. It may have all been light hearted for all we know. It's a football match and banter occurs, people get called fat bastard or ginger bastard etc all the time.
As for the Lukaku chant, there's nothing wrong with it and isn't racist in the slightest. Just people trying to make something of nothing yet again and PC gone mad in this country.
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I've heard our supporters singing a song on a similar theme[to the Lukaku one] about Kodjia more than once.
No takers on this?
That's extremely poor as well.
Only heard it once and that was from a small group walking down the Trinity Road to a game last season. Was surprised to see some females joining in given the content. Haven't actually heard it sang inside the ground though.
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Not saying it's right but Brighton fans have chants aimed at them every week and nothing is said or done. Now two women have complained about a few chants and it's in the press. It may have all been light hearted for all we know. It's a football match and banter occurs, people get called fat bastard or ginger bastard etc all the time.
As for the Lukaku chant, there's nothing wrong with it and isn't racist in the slightest. Just people trying to make something of nothing yet again and PC gone mad in this country.
Right a number of things here.
It's not right Brighton fans get abused.
The woman in question clearly didn't think whatever was said was lighthearted.
The Lukaku chant is clearly prejudice based on race.
So all in all I disagree with everything you've said.
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Not saying it's right but Brighton fans have chants aimed at them every week and nothing is said or done. Now two women have complained about a few chants and it's in the press. It may have all been light hearted for all we know. It's a football match and banter occurs, people get called fat bastard or ginger bastard etc all the time.
As for the Lukaku chant, there's nothing wrong with it and isn't racist in the slightest. Just people trying to make something of nothing yet again and PC gone mad in this country.
I've got all the black people and the gay people on the line - can I put them through so that you can tell them how you've solved all prejudice, you fucking colossal abject fucking hero?
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I've heard our supporters singing a song on a similar theme[to the Lukaku one] about Kodjia more than once.
No takers on this?
That's extremely poor as well.
Only heard it once and that was from a small group walking down the Trinity Road to a game last season. Was surprised to see some females joining in given the content. Haven't actually heard it sang inside the ground though.
I have, and I don't go as often as you.
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Re: the Lukaku chant. It's just that, a football chant, Villa aren't by far the greatest team the world has ever seen. It's 'banter' and meant as a laugh, they're not saying they hate black people. Man Utd sang a song about Park Ji Sung 'eating dogs in his home country' for years and nothing was said, yet mention a black man having a big dick and racism is screamed from people who think they should be offended by it.
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I've heard our supporters singing a song on a similar theme[to the Lukaku one] about Kodjia more than once.
No takers on this?
That's extremely poor as well.
Only heard it once and that was from a small group walking down the Trinity Road to a game last season. Was surprised to see some females joining in given the content. Haven't actually heard it sang inside the ground though.
I have, and I don't go as often as you.
Mainly at away games, now I think of it.
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Re: the Lukaku chant. It's just that, a football chant, Villa aren't by far the greatest team the world has ever seen. It's 'banter' and meant as a laugh, they're not saying they hate black people. Man Utd sang a song about Park Ji Sung 'eating dogs in his home country' for years and nothing was said, yet mention a black man having a big dick and racism is screamed from people who think they should be offended by it.
YOU DON'T GET TO DECIDE WHAT'S RACIST, YOU ******* ****** ******
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Re: the Lukaku chant. It's just that, a football chant, Villa aren't by far the greatest team the world has ever seen. It's 'banter' and meant as a laugh, they're not saying they hate black people. Man Utd sang a song about Park Ji Sung 'eating dogs in his home country' for years and nothing was said, yet mention a black man having a big dick and racism is screamed from people who think they should be offended by it.
YOU DON'T GET TO DECIDE WHAT'S RACIST, YOU ******* ****** ******
You think I'm a star? Thank you, that's sweet.
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I'm guessing because some groups of travelling supporters are known to sing fairly dickish songs at Brighton that they don't sing elsewhere.
I watch Brighton at the AMEX very often.
Rarely does a rival group of fans not have some sort of "does your boyfriend know you're here" chant.
It is not as bad as it once was by any means, and recently they have been ejecting people from the stadium for these kind of chants, but it isn't uncommon.
I attended a Leeds vs Brighton match about 10 or so years ago and the Leeds fans delighted in singing “you’re just a town full of faggots” for what felt like the entire match.
We’re getting there in eradicating racism in football but eradicating homophobia is lagging far behind because it still goes on. It’s good to see the FA finally getting their act together though.
Leeds fans get slagged off for Jimmy Saville don't they?
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I'm guessing because some groups of travelling supporters are known to sing fairly dickish songs at Brighton that they don't sing elsewhere.
I watch Brighton at the AMEX very often.
Rarely does a rival group of fans not have some sort of "does your boyfriend know you're here" chant.
It is not as bad as it once was by any means, and recently they have been ejecting people from the stadium for these kind of chants, but it isn't uncommon.
I attended a Leeds vs Brighton match about 10 or so years ago and the Leeds fans delighted in singing “you’re just a town full of faggots” for what felt like the entire match.
We’re getting there in eradicating racism in football but eradicating homophobia is lagging far behind because it still goes on. It’s good to see the FA finally getting their act together though.
Leeds fans get slagged off for Jimmy Saville don't they?
What's that got to do with anything?
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I've heard our supporters singing a song on a similar theme[to the Lukaku one] about Kodjia more than once.
No takers on this?
That's extremely poor as well.
Only heard it once and that was from a small group walking down the Trinity Road to a game last season. Was surprised to see some females joining in given the content. Haven't actually heard it sang inside the ground though.
I have, and I don't go as often as you.
Mainly at away games, now I think of it.
To be fair, where I sit in the lower North Stand there isn't much singing anyway, so it is unlikely to be heard there.
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Re: the Lukaku chant. It's just that, a football chant, Villa aren't by far the greatest team the world has ever seen. It's 'banter' and meant as a laugh, they're not saying they hate black people. Man Utd sang a song about Park Ji Sung 'eating dogs in his home country' for years and nothing was said, yet mention a black man having a big dick and racism is screamed from people who think they should be offended by it.
YOU DON'T GET TO DECIDE WHAT'S RACIST, YOU ******* ****** ******
You think I'm a star? Thank you, that's sweet.
So you're on a wind-up. Well done, success.
If one defends racism but doesn't actually believe what one's defending, I think that would be worse than being the kind of thick, ignorant pigskin of a dogfucker who'd actually purport to be so disgusting. Your lack of education would make us all complicit, but at least there'd be an excuse for your hateful lack of humanity.
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In the upper North Stand we heard a chant that went on for a while that included the word lesbian. I hope they ban those responsible.
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Not saying it's right but Brighton fans have chants aimed at them every week and nothing is said or done. Now two women have complained about a few chants and it's in the press. It may have all been light hearted for all we know. It's a football match and banter occurs, people get called fat bastard or ginger bastard etc all the time.
As for the Lukaku chant, there's nothing wrong with it and isn't racist in the slightest. Just people trying to make something of nothing yet again and PC gone mad in this country.
Next time someone gets lynched for being fat, or murdered for being ginger, I'll tell you you're right. Until then I'll tell you you're a fucking idiot.
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Not saying it's right but Brighton fans have chants aimed at them every week and nothing is said or done. Now two women have complained about a few chants and it's in the press. It may have all been light hearted for all we know. It's a football match and banter occurs, people get called fat bastard or ginger bastard etc all the time.
As for the Lukaku chant, there's nothing wrong with it and isn't racist in the slightest. Just people trying to make something of nothing yet again and PC gone mad in this country.
Next time someone gets lynched for being fat, or murdered for being ginger, I'll tell you you're right. Until then I'll tell you you're a fucking idiot.
I can't believe I scrubbed around for my Thesaurus of Less-Effective Words!
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If what is being reported is true, then it's quite possible that someone in the home section possibly knew her which could have prompted the unnecessary and disgusting outburst. It only needs one moron to start something that other morons find funny and you then have a recipe for trouble.
That is a massive assumption.
Nothing was assumed whatsoever there Tom, what was done is that someone used there imagination.
Since I'm stepping up to my soapbox I'll flag up Shelley said "The great instrument of moral good is the imagination". Yes Tom I'm sure you don't come to Football to think about right and wrong but you've waded in, so greetings.
I experience a real split between
1) relief that consensus is gradually shifting, towards actually being respectful to other beings and appreciating something that is not a big deal and is just banter to one, is deeply hurtful to another, or worse...
...and 2) surprise/disappointment at the defensiveness. Sure we don't know details etc, but isn't good to be *open* to the possibility that we aren't perfect and some of our fans may have been out of order? I'm glad and sad at this report, glad the story is opened up, of course sad it's our club. Are we so insecure or immature we can't tolerate or be open to criticism?
Very happy to read about ideas of Rainbow flags etc. I was v keen to have a pro-Tommy Hitz banner the match on TV immediately after he came out. Would love to see him come launch one.
And yes. I know. It's football what do you expect?
Well actually I expect change. I don't see the widespread racism I saw as a kid. I still see and hear the odd bit. It has changed. Needs to more.
I hear less homophobia but there is still plenty.
I'm getting on a bit, but hope to have a kid, and bring him or her to the Villa. I hope I don't have to do what my dad did on occasions and cover my ears or simply pretend it didn't happen.
I don't care if anyone replies and says I'm being PC etc. I sometimes go to football matches in a land where homophobia results in people getting outed in newspapers, being put in prison and being killed from time to time.
Of course it's not that extreme, but, I can imagine how I'd feel if I was gay and having to keep quiet listening to the crap that still gets heard, it's bad enough hearing it when it's not aimed at me. The times they are (thankfully) a-changing. This means things start to get looked at. They weren't before. Deal with it.
Rant over.
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If what is being reported is true, then it's quite possible that someone in the home section possibly knew her which could have prompted the unnecessary and disgusting outburst. It only needs one moron to start something that other morons find funny and you then have a recipe for trouble.
That is a massive assumption.
Nothing was assumed whatsoever there Tom, what was done is that someone used there imagination.
Since I'm stepping up to my soapbox I'll flag up Shelley said "The great instrument of moral good is the imagination". Yes Tom I'm sure you don't come to Football to think about right and wrong but you've waded in, so greetings.
I experience a real split between
1) relief that consensus is gradually shifting, towards actually being respectful to other beings and appreciating something that is not a big deal and is just banter to one, is deeply hurtful to another, or worse...
...and 2) surprise/disappointment at the defensiveness. Sure we don't know details etc, but isn't good to be *open* to the possibility that we aren't perfect and some of our fans may have been out of order? I'm glad and sad at this report, glad the story is opened up, of course sad it's our club. Are we so insecure or immature we can't tolerate or be open to criticism?
Very happy to read about ideas of Rainbow flags etc. I was v keen to have a pro-Tommy Hitz banner the match on TV immediately after he came out. Would love to see him come launch one.
And yes. I know. It's football what do you expect?
Well actually I expect change. I don't see the widespread racism I saw as a kid. I still see and hear the odd bit. It has changed. Needs to more.
I hear less homophobia but there is still plenty.
I'm getting on a bit, but hope to have a kid, and bring him or her to the Villa. I hope I don't have to do what my dad did on occasions and cover my ears or simply pretend it didn't happen.
I don't care if anyone replies and says I'm being PC etc. I sometimes go to football matches in a land where homophobia results in people getting outed in newspapers, being put in prison and being killed from time to time.
Of course it's not that extreme, but, I can imagine how I'd feel if I was gay and having to keep quiet listening to the crap that still gets heard, it's bad enough hearing it when it's not aimed at me. The times they are (thankfully) a-changing. This means things start to get looked at. They weren't before. Deal with it.
Rant over.
*APPLAUSE*
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The Boro fans also chanted back something on the subject- it was hard to hear as we had a handful of idiots half a dozen rows from us screaming abuse at the away end and arguing with stewards for most of the game.
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The Boro fans need to have somebody like purpletrousers on their own fan website, by the sound of it.
UTV
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If what is being reported is true, then it's quite possible that someone in the home section possibly knew her which could have prompted the unnecessary and disgusting outburst. It only needs one moron to start something that other morons find funny and you then have a recipe for trouble.
That is a massive assumption.
Nothing was assumed whatsoever there Tom, what was done is that someone used there imagination.
Since I'm stepping up to my soapbox I'll flag up Shelley said "The great instrument of moral good is the imagination". Yes Tom I'm sure you don't come to Football to think about right and wrong but you've waded in, so greetings.
I experience a real split between
1) relief that consensus is gradually shifting, towards actually being respectful to other beings and appreciating something that is not a big deal and is just banter to one, is deeply hurtful to another, or worse...
...and 2) surprise/disappointment at the defensiveness. Sure we don't know details etc, but isn't good to be *open* to the possibility that we aren't perfect and some of our fans may have been out of order? I'm glad and sad at this report, glad the story is opened up, of course sad it's our club. Are we so insecure or immature we can't tolerate or be open to criticism?
Very happy to read about ideas of Rainbow flags etc. I was v keen to have a pro-Tommy Hitz banner the match on TV immediately after he came out. Would love to see him come launch one.
And yes. I know. It's football what do you expect?
Well actually I expect change. I don't see the widespread racism I saw as a kid. I still see and hear the odd bit. It has changed. Needs to more.
I hear less homophobia but there is still plenty.
I'm getting on a bit, but hope to have a kid, and bring him or her to the Villa. I hope I don't have to do what my dad did on occasions and cover my ears or simply pretend it didn't happen.
I don't care if anyone replies and says I'm being PC etc. I sometimes go to football matches in a land where homophobia results in people getting outed in newspapers, being put in prison and being killed from time to time.
Of course it's not that extreme, but, I can imagine how I'd feel if I was gay and having to keep quiet listening to the crap that still gets heard, it's bad enough hearing it when it's not aimed at me. The times they are (thankfully) a-changing. This means things start to get looked at. They weren't before. Deal with it.
Rant over.
*APPLAUSE*
Well said.
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Not saying it's right but Brighton fans have chants aimed at them every week and nothing is said or done. Now two women have complained about a few chants and it's in the press. It may have all been light hearted for all we know. It's a football match and banter occurs, people get called fat bastard or ginger bastard etc all the time.
As for the Lukaku chant, there's nothing wrong with it and isn't racist in the slightest. Just people trying to make something of nothing yet again and PC gone mad in this country.
It's quite often not banter though is it?
I wonder what you would feel like, or if you have a son or daughter and they are alone surrounded by a group of football chavs having are having a personal attack?
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How is the Lukaku one not racist?
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I would say that the phrase 'it's PC gone mad' generally comes from someone who doesn't want society to move forward beyond prejudice.
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People struggle with the Lukaku one as an allegation of a big penis isn't socially an issue. 2000 years ago a big knob was a sign of barbarism and you will find mosaics adorning many Roman households which would contain a German barbarian sporting a huge dong to ward of spirits. These days, male ego being what it is things are different.
The issue lies in that if you say Lukaku has a big penis (and he probably does being 6 foot 3 or whatever he is) and you base that assumption on his race, rather than his height, you're using race to generalise a physical characteristic and propagate a myth at the same time. So you're racist. You're also more likely to buy into other racist myths.
The player says he doesn't like it and that should be enough. It appears to be driven by the club, so maybe he's being a company man, either way it doesn't matter.
They should stop murdering a classic Stone Roses, even if their attempt isn't to offend but to celebrate in a borish male way. They should also stop singing about pushing from the back too, which is grossly offensive.
It wouldn't bother me if people (rightly ahem) assumed I have a big dong. But it might start to grate if they (very wrongly) assumed I have rythmn or suck my teeth or like watermelon or any of the other racial stereotypes that get attributed to black people was the reason.
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If what is being reported is true, then it's quite possible that someone in the home section possibly knew her which could have prompted the unnecessary and disgusting outburst. It only needs one moron to start something that other morons find funny and you then have a recipe for trouble.
That is a massive assumption.
Nothing was assumed whatsoever there Tom, what was done is that someone used there imagination.
Since I'm stepping up to my soapbox I'll flag up Shelley said "The great instrument of moral good is the imagination". Yes Tom I'm sure you don't come to Football to think about right and wrong but you've waded in, so greetings.
I experience a real split between
1) relief that consensus is gradually shifting, towards actually being respectful to other beings and appreciating something that is not a big deal and is just banter to one, is deeply hurtful to another, or worse...
...and 2) surprise/disappointment at the defensiveness. Sure we don't know details etc, but isn't good to be *open* to the possibility that we aren't perfect and some of our fans may have been out of order? I'm glad and sad at this report, glad the story is opened up, of course sad it's our club. Are we so insecure or immature we can't tolerate or be open to criticism?
Very happy to read about ideas of Rainbow flags etc. I was v keen to have a pro-Tommy Hitz banner the match on TV immediately after he came out. Would love to see him come launch one.
And yes. I know. It's football what do you expect?
Well actually I expect change. I don't see the widespread racism I saw as a kid. I still see and hear the odd bit. It has changed. Needs to more.
I hear less homophobia but there is still plenty.
I'm getting on a bit, but hope to have a kid, and bring him or her to the Villa. I hope I don't have to do what my dad did on occasions and cover my ears or simply pretend it didn't happen.
I don't care if anyone replies and says I'm being PC etc. I sometimes go to football matches in a land where homophobia results in people getting outed in newspapers, being put in prison and being killed from time to time.
Of course it's not that extreme, but, I can imagine how I'd feel if I was gay and having to keep quiet listening to the crap that still gets heard, it's bad enough hearing it when it's not aimed at me. The times they are (thankfully) a-changing. This means things start to get looked at. They weren't before. Deal with it.
Rant over.
It's not even a rant, you're just being a normal, decent human being.
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People struggle with the Lukaku one as an allegation of a big penis isn't socially an issue. 2000 years ago a big knob was a sign of barbarism and you will find mosaics adorning many Roman households which would contain a German barbarian sporting a huge dong to ward of spirits. These days, male ego being what it is things are different.
The issue lies in that if you say Lukaku has a big penis (and he probably does being 6 foot 3 or whatever he is) and you base that assumption on his race, rather than his height, you're using race to generalise a physical characteristic and propagate a myth at the same time. So you're racist. You're also more likely to buy into other racist myths.
The player says he doesn't like it and that should be enough. It appears to be driven by the club, so maybe he's being a company man, either way it doesn't matter.
They should stop murdering a classic Stone Roses, even if their attempt isn't to offend but to celebrate in a borish male way. They should also stop singing about pushing from the back too, which is grossly offensive.
It wouldn't bother me if people (rightly ahem) assumed I have a big dong. But it might start to grate if they (very wrongly) assumed I have rythmn or suck my teeth or like watermelon or any of the other racial stereotypes that get attributed to black people was the reason.
Are we OK to assume you're a shite football manager?
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My record speaks for itself.
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People who sing it probably think the Lukaku one is good fun or even a compliment. Missing the racial stereotype point.
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You can't say anything these days.
Well you can if you want too, it depends what sort of person you are.
I'm sure if this lady in question was being singled out and bullied by a crowd of football fans because of her shape, size, gender, colour, sexuality or anything else personal it was bang out of order.
It's horrible and cruel.
Er....I wasn't being serious, I was taking the piss out of the deadheads.
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People who sing it probably think the Lukaku one is good fun or even a compliment. Missing the racial stereotype point.
Think you might have got it there, as I'm guessing some people would struggle to see how what they would perceive as a 'positive' could be construed as negative in any way.
Quite why a grown adult, particularly a grown man, would want to sing about someone else's todge at a football match is another question.
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If what is being reported is true, then it's quite possible that someone in the home section possibly knew her which could have prompted the unnecessary and disgusting outburst. It only needs one moron to start something that other morons find funny and you then have a recipe for trouble.
That is a massive assumption.
Nothing was assumed whatsoever there Tom, what was done is that someone used there imagination.
Since I'm stepping up to my soapbox I'll flag up Shelley said "The great instrument of moral good is the imagination". Yes Tom I'm sure you don't come to Football to think about right and wrong but you've waded in, so greetings.
I experience a real split between
1) relief that consensus is gradually shifting, towards actually being respectful to other beings and appreciating something that is not a big deal and is just banter to one, is deeply hurtful to another, or worse...
...and 2) surprise/disappointment at the defensiveness. Sure we don't know details etc, but isn't good to be *open* to the possibility that we aren't perfect and some of our fans may have been out of order? I'm glad and sad at this report, glad the story is opened up, of course sad it's our club. Are we so insecure or immature we can't tolerate or be open to criticism?
Very happy to read about ideas of Rainbow flags etc. I was v keen to have a pro-Tommy Hitz banner the match on TV immediately after he came out. Would love to see him come launch one.
And yes. I know. It's football what do you expect?
Well actually I expect change. I don't see the widespread racism I saw as a kid. I still see and hear the odd bit. It has changed. Needs to more.
I hear less homophobia but there is still plenty.
I'm getting on a bit, but hope to have a kid, and bring him or her to the Villa. I hope I don't have to do what my dad did on occasions and cover my ears or simply pretend it didn't happen.
I don't care if anyone replies and says I'm being PC etc. I sometimes go to football matches in a land where homophobia results in people getting outed in newspapers, being put in prison and being killed from time to time.
Of course it's not that extreme, but, I can imagine how I'd feel if I was gay and having to keep quiet listening to the crap that still gets heard, it's bad enough hearing it when it's not aimed at me. The times they are (thankfully) a-changing. This means things start to get looked at. They weren't before. Deal with it.
Rant over.
Superb post PT, heartfelt and full of hope for all of us and our future generations.
Thank you also for saving me the time of having to explain to Tom the difference between possibility and assumption.
Thank you again for this post.
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I would say that the phrase 'it's PC gone mad' generally comes from someone who doesn't want society to move forward beyond prejudice.
I've found that it's usually said non-ironically by those who would find mentally challenging to walk and talk at the same time.
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People who sing it probably think the Lukaku one is good fun or even a compliment. Missing the racial stereotype point.
Think you might have got it there, as I'm guessing some people would struggle to see how what they would perceive as a 'positive' could be construed as negative in any way.
Quite why a grown adult, particularly a grown man, would want to sing about someone else's todge at a football match is another question.
The actual football is incidental. I can't see why else someone would spend money, lots of it, to abuse other people for 90 minutes if it wasn't purely for the pleasure derived from doing so and the "legitimacy" the environment provides.
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Not saying it's right but Brighton fans have chants aimed at them every week and nothing is said or done. Now two women have complained about a few chants and it's in the press. It may have all been light hearted for all we know. It's a football match and banter occurs, people get called fat bastard or ginger bastard etc all the time.
My brother is gay, he is also ginger haired.
To my knowledge he has been badly beaten up because of one of those things three times.
I can bet you anything you like that the perpetrators weren't calling him a ginger bastard when kicking him.
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I would say that the phrase 'it's PC gone mad' generally comes from someone who doesn't want society to move forward beyond prejudice.
Pressing the non-existent 'like' button