Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: PaulWinch again on October 01, 2016, 06:49:18 PM
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This can be moved if it fits elsewhere, but I kind of wanted to address the holistic calamity of the last 6/7 years. It seems that at every level we have been a disaster.
We had an owner who flip flopped between apathy and ,well, lunacy. He made countless bad decisions including hiring a manager who had just been relegated with an awful side. He also hired Tom Fox, whose crowning achievement was somehow thinking Tim Sherwood was the only suitable candidate in football to manage Villa.
As these bewildering decisions mounted we lost game after game, limped along surviving in top flight before finally, inevitably, being relegated in humiliating circumstances.
In all of that time there was a period where we went four years withoutgetting a substantial, if any, transfer fee for a player. We had players just sitting on big contracts contributing nothing.
On the pitch across these years I can probably count on the fingers of my two hands the number of players who could be counted as successes. The vast majority of players were either woefully inadequate in their footballing ability, or they had no sense of character or fight, or they were a combination of both. Even those who looked promising after a brief time in the Villa shirt became complete shadows of what we expected/hoped.
The lack of any coherent strategy meant we changed from manager to manager all of whom seemed to be tactically outwitted by their opponents on nearly all occasions.
Anyhow with our Premier League time at an end a new owner came in and backed up his words by spending a lot of money on a management team and players who had succeeded individually at this level, so it all seemed promising. Yet once again we're getting worse by the week, looking mentally fragile and battling out at the foot of the table.
I genuinely have no idea what has to change to remove the apocalyptic black cloud that infects every facet of this club.
Apologies for the rant, but today was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
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I'm hoping for a "Bobby Ewing" moment.
Wake up in the shower and realise none of this ever happened.
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I'm just bored with the last 6 seasons, nowt to cheer.
I used to be so excited going to Villa Park but now it is a chore which I follow through because I have a ST and would be doubly pissed-off to waste my time AND money. Not even that angry any more as there is just an inevitability about our decline.
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Tell me about it. I mean it's 4 wins from 51 in the last couple of years, fuck
knows what it is across that entire period.
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agree with everything you posted
our biggest problem is given that the fact that we are literally a basket case who are we going to attract?
we are really in the shit
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Stain on the history of the club.
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I've just had the courage to look at the league table. Fuck me we're bad.
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Nothing much to add. I agree with you PWA. It has just genuinely beat the fun out of football for me. I dont know, I cant even be arsed to get mad any more.
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Since Houllier left our league record is, by my reckoning:
PL201 W41 D59 L101 F191 A328 GD-137 Pts 182
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It has all been rather ghastly, to be sure.
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I'm hoping for a "Bobby Ewing" moment.
Wake up in the shower and realise none of this ever happened.
I'm hoping to wake some time this week to hear Juergen Klopp has quit Liverpool because can't stand by and watch what is happening to Villa.
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I have become that numb to the whole thing my anger lasted about 10 minutes after the game tonight. It gets less. I even laughed when we conceded inside 4 minutes. There is a curse on the club. Little things continually knock us back and end up in shot confidence and scatty performances. No luck, all passion evaporating from the players. Whatever we've done to deserve it i hope our debt is paid off soon.
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The curse of The Ulster Manager. See Sunderland..
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The curse of The Ulster Manager. See Sunderland..
Leicester?
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Thing is at some point some point things are going to have to change. I have a feeling after thinking about it that maybe we need new blood and up and comers in the management and coaching staff. The likes of Black, Bond, and Clarke just seem to do fuck all.
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Ancient history, but MON's departure put us into a tailspin from which we are yet to recover from. I still think that allowing Lambert to coast along for far too long caused further serious damage to the club.
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Ancient history, but MON's departure put us into a tailspin from which we are yet to recover from. I still think that allowing Lambert to coast along for far too long caused further serious damage to the club.
Yes, it was the point when just turning up was deemed acceptable.
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Ancient history, but MON's departure put us into a tailspin from which we are yet to recover from. I still think that allowing Lambert to coast along for far too long caused further serious damage to the club.
Yes, it was the point when just turning up was deemed acceptable.
Totally agree, the Lambert years really put us here, gutted the club of its self respect and professionalism.
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Moscow was when the club turned its back on its ethos and heritage.
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It was all about Lerner and the money - too much initially was badly spent, then retrenchment was too high, then Lerner made a series of bad choices
I've got a lot of doubts about RDM. But when managers who've previously achieved good things are all awful, you have to think there are other factors. The regime has changed now, but the legacy of failure is going to take some getting over
Of course, it would help if the new spine we'd bought didn't depend on a 21 year old Italian keeper, a centre back and captain who just doesn't look very good, and a 32 year old midfielder who looks well past hit (and I never thought he was that good when he was allegedly an inspiration).
If we do get a new manager, I think all three may be out of the side as soon as we can get someone else in.
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It was all about Lerner and the money - too much initially was badly spent, then retrenchment was too high, then Lerner made a series of bad choices
I've got a lot of doubts about RDM. But when managers who've previously achieved good things are all awful, you have to think there are other factors. The regime has changed now, but the legacy of failure is going to take some getting over
Of course, it would help if the new spine we'd bought didn't depend on a 21 year old Italian keeper, a centre back and captain who just doesn't look very good, and a 32 year old midfielder who looks well past hit (and I never thought he was that good when he was allegedly an inspiration).
If we do get a new manager, I think all three may be out of the side as soon as we can get someone else in.
You make some good points there Matt. We spent a fortune this summer, but yet again, have spent it badly. We've got enough new players that the mental hang ups from previous years shouldn't really be a problem, but because of how badly RDM spent Xia's cash, we're now very rapidly creating a whole new losing ethos. 5th biggest spenders in English football, and yet we waste a massive chunk of it. The midfield has been a (if not THE) problem area for years, and so we go for a completely unproven kid, and a 32 year old, slow, past it nobody. I've been impressed by what I've seen from Tish so far, but we're still virtually guaranteeing that Westwood has to start, which is unbelievable.
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I started to realise last season that maybe I've seen my best Villa supporting years already. So basically there have been a few bright flashes since 1996 and the last twenty years have largely been a waste of time. I really, really, really hope this is not the case, but I've potentially got another forty years of this bollocks left. Today, I only realised we were playing at about five to three. If I can't be arsed during a kid-free, non-weekend-working period like I'm in now, Villa won't have too much attraction when I've got stuff in my life which actually needs attention.
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Since Houllier left our league record is, by my reckoning:
PL201 W41 D59 L101 F191 A328 GD-137 Pts 182
50% losing ratio in last 6 years. I shouldn't be surprised but just seeing the stats we've produced in black and white is incredible.
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I think our biggest problem is the set up. We're weak in centre-mid and that's what drives your team so even with our existing personnel if we put Tish, Westwood and Jedinak there we'd be better. Jedinak has been crap, but if all he had to do was worry about breaking up play and passing someone next to him he might be ok.
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Ancient history, but MON's departure put us into a tailspin from which we are yet to recover from. I still think that allowing Lambert to coast along for far too long caused further serious damage to the club.
Yes, it was the point when just turning up was deemed acceptable.
Totally agree, the Lambert years really put us here, gutted the club of its self respect and professionalism.
Yes I see the Lambert reign as far more embarrassing than what Sherwood produced tbh and surprised people don't see it.
Under Sherwood it was chaotic but at least he was put out of his misery fairly quickly....Lambert reign just seemed to go on and on and on and on...
Under him we suffered record defeats...couldn't even score a goal for months on end and just generally reduced us to a non-entity at premier league level and even now in lower league football.
McLeish started the process, Lambert perfected the ineptitude.
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The most damning thing for me is how little since Houllier left have we even looked like we are improving, or even doing anything at BH. End of the first Lambert season and that brief spell under Sherwood. The rest of those 5+ years we've looked clueless and uncoached.
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Ancient history, but MON's departure put us into a tailspin from which we are yet to recover from. I still think that allowing Lambert to coast along for far too long caused further serious damage to the club.
Yes, it was the point when just turning up was deemed acceptable.
Totally agree, the Lambert years really put us here, gutted the club of its self respect and professionalism.
Yes I see the Lambert reign as far more embarrassing than what Sherwood produced tbh and surprised people don't see it.
Under Sherwood it was chaotic but at least he was put out of his misery fairly quickly....Lambert reign just seemed to go on and on and on and on...
Under him we suffered record defeats...couldn't even score a goal for months on end and just generally reduced us to a non-entity at premier league level and even now in lower league football.
McLeish started the process, Lambert perfected the ineptitude.
You seem to forget, McLeish was a great manager but we didn't give him a chance because of his previous job.
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Anyone put a figure on who much it's all come to since we signed Bent.
So many signings, 90% of whom have been mediocre or just woeful and we've struggled to get money back on so many of them.
What's worrying is it looks the same to me now...some players who looked o.k when we signed them but we're quickly seeing none of them are going to fire us to promotion so we will lose money on a few of them if we don't go up in next few years.
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It's been 5 years ie McLeish onwards that it's been truly wretched. I mean most clubs who have a bad season gradually recover from it or get relegated and find themselves a top dog so the fans actually see some wins.
We can't even ascend to the slightly higher rung of mediocrity.
There can't be a fanbase this side of the cosmos that's had to endure as embarrassingly inept a half decade's worth of games, 200 as per stat in post above, as us.
And here we are, on the first day of October, bringing over five thousand of our fans to a ground where the men who represent us' lack of communication, organisation and belief (never mind craft and guile) is laid bare at its most pathetic.
This is when the film ends with the protagonist finally being put out of his misery and a raven perched on a bit of aluminium on the Trinity Road stand takes an idle look at the Villa badge before flying across to Aston Hall where his family is waiting for worms.
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our biggest problem is given that the fact that we are literally a basket case who are we going to attract?
we are really in the shit
I think we are still a very attractive proposition for any ambitious manager. We are a club maintaining 30,000 home crowds in the Championship with an owner who has backed the current manager financially far more than we could ever have hoped. Any manager worth his salt would look at us now and think they could be the man to turn us round, especially with the squad of players we possess.
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Quote from Eamonn on 2nd October
"This is when the film ends with the protagonist finally being put out of his misery and a raven perched on a bit of aluminium on the Trinity Road stand takes an idle look at the Villa badge before flying across to Aston Hall where his family is waiting for worms.
[/quote]
....and gets taken out of the skies by a miss hit Westwood 30 yarder. .. ;)
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Agree with every word and every sentiment expressed on this thread. Except ravens don't eat worms. They feed on carrion which makes the roosting on Villa Park an excellent metaphor.
In my mind/imagination we walked onto the hangman's scaffold the day Randy Lerner decided that the scaling back of fan expectation was the central plank in a policy of reduced losses at Villa Park. Lambert was sent for, doffed his cap and promised to deliver cut price mid table stability. He actually boasted about reducing the fans' expectations.
The big difference between this horrible slump and previous horrible slumps is that in past ones we, the fans never stopped believing that we would rise again, stronger than ever. This time there seems to be widespread acceptance that we will take our place alongside Leeds and Forest and live on our memories.
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I was ill for most of 2012 and had this romantic hope that my own recovery would coincide with a Villa renaissance and that in years to come I would bore my grandkids with the story. Thankfully the doctors and nurses held up their end of the bargain while Villa have just carried on making us all feel sick.
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The pivotal moment was that Monday in August 2010 when O'Neill flounced off five days before the start of the season and left Lerner in the lurch, not knowing what the hell to do. In that moment Lerner was exposed as a rabbit in headlights and revealed to be out of his depth.
The floundering started, austerity was introduced, the managers came and went as we drifted downwards and backwards, and the humiliations came thick and fast as the established sides easily beat us without getting out of second gear, the up and coming Swanseas and Southamptons and Stokes overtook us, and the lower league teams gleefully picked us off in cup competitions.
I thought our nadir had been reached last May, and we would begin the journey back to better things this season, but judging by what I've seen recently my optimism may have been misplaced. Even up to as recently as the Brentford game I thought that the team would click and results would come, but the realisation has dawned that what we're witnessing is another mediocre manager, another (with one or two exceptions) team of mediocre players comprising last season's leftovers and a yet another clutch of poor purchases.
I'm very much afraid that we are now into season number 7 of the downward spiral. The misery continues...
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The pivotal moment was that Monday in August 2010 when O'Neill flounced off five days before the start of the season and left Lerner in the lurch, not knowing what the hell to do. In that moment Lerner was exposed as a rabbit in headlights and revealed to be out of his depth.
The floundering started, austerity was introduced, the managers came and went as we drifted downwards and backwards, and the humiliations came thick and fast as the established sides easily beat us without getting out of second gear, the up and coming Swanseas and Southamptons and Stokes overtook us, and the lower league teams gleefully picked us off in cup competitions.
I thought our nadir had been reached last May, and we would begin the journey back to better things this season, but judging by what I've seen recently my optimism may have been misplaced. Even up to as recently as the Brentford game I thought that the team would click and results would come, but the realisation has dawned that what we're witnessing is another mediocre manager, another (with one or two exceptions) team of mediocre players comprising last season's leftovers and a yet another clutch of poor purchases.
I'm very much afraid that we are now into season number 7 of the downward spiral. The misery continues...
I thought austerity had already started and that's why O'Neill walked
In fairness, it was never proper austerity for a while. We spent over 20 on bent, 5 on makoun and 10 on nzogbia
That's probably more than the entire Swansea team for that era cost
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Matt, it's true re Bent, Makoun etc, but I was making a general point about the overall sweep of events rather than picking on specifics.
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Agree with every word and every sentiment expressed on this thread. Except ravens don't eat worms. They feed on carrion which makes the roosting on Villa Park an excellent metaphor.
In my mind/imagination we walked onto the hangman's scaffold the day Randy Lerner decided that the scaling back of fan expectation was the central plank in a policy of reduced losses at Villa Park. Lambert was sent for, doffed his cap and promised to deliver cut price mid table stability. He actually boasted about reducing the fans' expectations.
The big difference between this horrible slump and previous horrible slumps is that in past ones we, the fans never stopped believing that we would rise again, stronger than ever. This time there seems to be widespread acceptance that we will take our place alongside Leeds and Forest and live on our memories.
If you look back in the Ellis era our poor seasons were always followed by strong ones. He made plenty of errors but didn't allow things to slip.
When we went down in the 80s we came back the following season, nearly went down in 94/95 and followed that up with one of tbe best in modern times. 02/03 was not great at all but followed it up with a 6th place the next season.
The club nowadays just doesn't show any inclination to win, there is little magic on the pitch despite all the money spent, it's a dam shame for any kid growing up now and getting into following us that we can't even present a mid table average finish in the premier league anymore which I saw plenty of growing up.
It never seems we can hit rock bottom and start rising again, there always seems another depth we need to slump to.
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It's been horrible and has killed my enthusiasm for the sport. Not really much else to add that hasn't been said already.
I dream of the day our team is competitive again.
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The pivotal moment was that Monday in August 2010 when O'Neill flounced off five days before the start of the season and left Lerner in the lurch, not knowing what the hell to do. In that moment Lerner was exposed as a rabbit in headlights and revealed to be out of his depth.
The floundering started, austerity was introduced, the managers came and went as we drifted downwards and backwards, and the humiliations came thick and fast as the established sides easily beat us without getting out of second gear, the up and coming Swanseas and Southamptons and Stokes overtook us, and the lower league teams gleefully picked us off in cup competitions.
I thought our nadir had been reached last May, and we would begin the journey back to better things this season, but judging by what I've seen recently my optimism may have been misplaced. Even up to as recently as the Brentford game I thought that the team would click and results would come, but the realisation has dawned that what we're witnessing is another mediocre manager, another (with one or two exceptions) team of mediocre players comprising last season's leftovers and a yet another clutch of poor purchases.
I'm very much afraid that we are now into season number 7 of the downward spiral. The misery continues...
On the other thread someone was criticising me for saying we couldn't attract Bournemouth's manager...let's remember 5 seasons ago when our disappointing season consisted of us finishing 9th...and only a year since we'd been top 6...and only 4 months since we signed at the time England's main striker for 18m....we couldn't attract the Wigan Athletic manager to come here.
That's when the warning bells to me about Lerner well and truly went off...a shambolic managerial search that ended up with McLeish and that followed the underwhelming appointment of Houllier.
At least Dr Tony's search and appointment of RDM was professional and at least looked good on paper. More difficult during the season but I trust him to get in another suitable candidate.
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The pivotal moment was that Monday in August 2010 when O'Neill flounced off five days before the start of the season and left Lerner in the lurch, not knowing what the hell to do. In that moment Lerner was exposed as a rabbit in headlights and revealed to be out of his depth.
The floundering started, austerity was introduced, the managers came and went as we drifted downwards and backwards, and the humiliations came thick and fast as the established sides easily beat us without getting out of second gear, the up and coming Swanseas and Southamptons and Stokes overtook us, and the lower league teams gleefully picked us off in cup competitions.
I thought our nadir had been reached last May, and we would begin the journey back to better things this season, but judging by what I've seen recently my optimism may have been misplaced. Even up to as recently as the Brentford game I thought that the team would click and results would come, but the realisation has dawned that what we're witnessing is another mediocre manager, another (with one or two exceptions) team of mediocre players comprising last season's leftovers and a yet another clutch of poor purchases.
I'm very much afraid that we are now into season number 7 of the downward spiral. The misery continues...
On the other thread someone was criticising me for saying we couldn't attract Bournemouth's manager...let's remember 5 seasons ago when our disappointing season consisted of us finishing 9th...and only a year since we'd been top 6...and only 4 months since we signed at the time England's main striker for 18m....we couldn't attract the Wigan Athletic manager to come here.
That's when the warning bells to me about Lerner well and truly went off...a shambolic managerial search that ended up with McLeish and that followed the underwhelming appointment of Houllier.
At least Dr Tony's search and appointment of RDM was professional and at least looked good on paper. More difficult during the season but I trust him to get in another suitable candidate.
Don't agree. I didn't want RDM sacked yet but a manager with 50m to spend and we got him? Really the best we could find this season given the biggest spend outside the prem was some unemployed guy? To me they just saw chelsea/champions league winner and went for it
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Well it was him or Pearson....
I never really got why people were judging his time at Chelsea...to me that was completely irrelevant to the challenge here.
I was more looking at his time at WBA and seeing him getting them automatic promotion very comfortably with 90 points and thinking he was a decent appointment so I'd let the Dr off this one.
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Martinez was only offered an interview though wasn't he? Probably too scared to face going back to Dave Whelan if we didn't go for him in the end so he stayed put.
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Or he was perfectly happy at Wigan at the time and didn't want to leave. He loves Wigan
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The rot set in when I started my current job in April 2010. The first game we played after that was the 3-0 Semi Final defeat to Chelsea and things have deteriorated ever since. So if anybody fancies saving the Villa, then please feel free to offer me a job (though I'll clearly spend the majority of my time on the internet instead of doing any work).
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The rot set in when I started my current job in April 2010. The first game we played after that was the 3-0 Semi Final defeat to Chelsea and things have deteriorated ever since. So if anybody fancies saving the Villa, then please feel free to offer me a job (though I'll clearly spend the majority of my time on the internet instead of doing any work).
Yeah, people really shouldn't do that ;)
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I can't stand O' Neil as much as the next Villa fan but we can't blame him for the last 5 years. There's been to many different managers, a lot of money has been spent on lots of players, even a different owner to say it stems from him. Apart from McLeish, we have all been relatively happy with the appointments as they have happened, both manager and player wise but for whatever reason they have just not worked out.
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44 years of supporting the Villa and at the moment I can't see myself going to a game this season as it stands. Never thought it would come to this!
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Or he was perfectly happy at Wigan at the time and didn't want to leave. He loves Wigan
Surely you can apply the same to Eddie Howe then even more? He is Mr Bournemouth given his playing career and been their manager now for about 8 years bar a little gap year in Burnley...
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The rot set in when I started my current job in April 2010. The first game we played after that was the 3-0 Semi Final defeat to Chelsea and things have deteriorated ever since. So if anybody fancies saving the Villa, then please feel free to offer me a job (though I'll clearly spend the majority of my time on the internet instead of doing any work).
Ha I often think the same of my Uni days...started in September 2007 and finished my degree in May 2010 so nicely covered the three top 6 seasons . Should've done a Masters and we'd have wrapped up that League/FA cup double no problem in 2010-11.
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I can't stand O' Neil as much as the next Villa fan but we can't blame him for the last 5 years. There's been to many different managers, a lot of money has been spent on lots of players, even a different owner to say it stems from him. Apart from McLeish, we have all been relatively happy with the appointments as they have happened, both manager and player wise but for whatever reason they have just not worked out.
i for one was not happy with the appointments.
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It all goes in circles. I'm sixteen, and went to my first match in March 2007, after years of hearing my Dad's tales about Brian Little. My first season ticket came a year later. I grew up on the O'Neil side, and thought that was just pretty regular. My mates all supported Manure so if anything I was embarrassed we couldn't manage more than sixth. Perhaps me going to secondary school (2011) caused the change?! Ah well, thankfully I'm leaving in June so we might start winning again soon!
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It all goes in circles. I'm sixteen, and went to my first match in March 2007, after years of hearing my Dad's tales about Brian Little. My first season ticket came a year later. I grew up on the O'Neil side, and thought that was just pretty regular. My mates all supported Manure so if anything I was embarrassed we couldn't manage more than sixth. Perhaps me going to secondary school (2011) caused the change?! Ah well, thankfully I'm leaving in June so we might start winning again soon!
I applaud your support. I genuinely do. Its one thing to start supporting the club when times were good (like I did and most folks here) its another to start and keep at it when it has been one disaster after another year on year.
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Or he was perfectly happy at Wigan at the time and didn't want to leave. He loves Wigan
Surely you can apply the same to Eddie Howe then even more? He is Mr Bournemouth given his playing career and been their manager now for about 8 years bar a little gap year in Burnley...
Yep. I don't think there is much chance that Howe would leave Bournemouth at present.
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It all goes in circles. I'm sixteen, and went to my first match in March 2007, after years of hearing my Dad's tales about Brian Little. My first season ticket came a year later. I grew up on the O'Neil side, and thought that was just pretty regular. My mates all supported Manure so if anything I was embarrassed we couldn't manage more than sixth. Perhaps me going to secondary school (2011) caused the change?! Ah well, thankfully I'm leaving in June so we might start winning again soon!
I applaud your support. I genuinely do. Its one thing to start supporting the club when times were good (like I did and most folks here) its another to start and keep at it when it has been one disaster after another year on year.
Aye, to me it's not at all difficult though. I haven't considered my loyalties once - Villa is a part of me now, and it'll never leave. Not being at VP on matchday is a thought I can't bear. I just hope we bloody well win something soon!