Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: eddiemunster on February 19, 2016, 10:02:19 AM
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To settle an argument, can anyone on here please tell me if Aston Villa F.C or previous chairmen have ever owned any part of Aston Hall or Aston Park, on the opposite side of the road to the Trinity Rd side of the current stadium. According to Wikipedia, in 1897 Villa's financial secretary Frederick Rinder negotiated the purchase of Aston Lower Grounds. Is this/was this ever part of Aston Hall grounds or Aston Park?
I've tried getting an answer from the club, via emailing the club but the emails keep being sent back via the "postmaster".
Cheers in advance for your help.
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part ownership i do not know but part of the ground dell part of the ground used there name ense we have the Holte End
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Aston Lower.Grounds was originally part of AsTon Hall's gardens, including a large fish pond. The pond was retained when they built the pleasure grounds (theatre, concert hall, aquarium etc) but later drained, that is where Villa Park is situated. All this information and more, including old maps and pictures, can be found via your favourite Internet search engine. I don't think there's any reason to believe that Villa ever owned part of the park on the other side of Trinity Road.
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Fred Rinder and Charlie Johnstone rented the Aston Lower Grounds from Flowers to build a football stadium(with a cycle track ) which was known as Aston Lower Grounds. In time the name Villa Park caught on and it was known as this from 1907. Buy the Simon Inglis book or as been mentioned look at various sites such as John Lerwill's. I think Reeves owned the other side of Trinity Road.
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Aston Hall was part of the Holte family's estate, which at one point stretched from Water Orton to Deritend. The land was sold off gradually during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, the hall coming under the ownership of the then-Birmingham Corporation (Aston Park is now around one-ninth it's original size).
In 1897 Villa leased the Lower Grounds from Flowers Brewery, originally on a 21 year lease before buying the land outright in (I think) 1905.
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Did the club not own land further up Trinity Road - probably where the cricket pitch now is?
I think this was the land used as a training ground until the mid sixties when it was sold by the then board in order to help make ends meet.
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Did the club not own land further up Trinity Road - probably where the cricket pitch now is?
I think this was the land used as a training ground until the mid sixties when it was sold by the then board in order to help make ends meet.
(http://i.imgur.com/5ayf8yf.png)
Yes Steve R, the club used land further up Trinity Road in 1959 (see above).
It was used up to Jan/Feb 1965. By March 1965 the youth team was playing back at HP Source Ground, Erdington.
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A bit more digging (another exciting Friday night). There is a record of the land attached to the Hall originally being about 1600 acres (that's about 3/4 the size of Sutton Park). It stretched to Lozells to the west, and Nechells to the south. At one time there was a 934 acre deer park. The walled gardens in the 1750s were 327 acres (about 200 football pitches) compared to the current 50 odd acres of the park.
The lower grounds were 31 acres. This included a cricket ground (where Nelson/Jardine/Endicott Roads are now) and a bowling green. The green survived until the mid sixties, located near where the McGregor statue is. I'm sure our older posters remember it, I just remember my Dad pointing out it's location to me, outside the 1970s club shop. Some of the aquarium buildings remained as the club offices into the 1970s, I remember them being demolished.
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I've tried getting an answer from the club, via emailing the club but the emails keep being sent back via the "postmaster".
That's just because you have the wrong email address or an error in there.
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A bit more digging (another exciting Friday night). There is a record of the land attached to the Hall originally being about 1600 acres (that's about 3/4 the size of Sutton Park). It stretched to Lozells to the west, and Nechells to the south. At one time there was a 934 acre deer park. The walled gardens in the 1750s were 327 acres (about 200 football pitches) compared to the current 50 odd acres of the park.
The lower grounds were 31 acres. This included a cricket ground (where Nelson/Jardine/Endicott Roads are now) and a bowling green. The green survived until the mid sixties, located near where the McGregor statue is. I'm sure our older posters remember it, I just remember my Dad pointing out it's location to me, outside the 1970s club shop. Some of the aquarium buildings remained as the club offices into the 1970s, I remember them being demolished.
There was talk of them being modernised, which would have been a fine thing, but unfortunately they were in such a state that they were condemned and demolished in 1980.
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A bit more digging (another exciting Friday night). There is a record of the land attached to the Hall originally being about 1600 acres (that's about 3/4 the size of Sutton Park). It stretched to Lozells to the west, and Nechells to the south. At one time there was a 934 acre deer park. The walled gardens in the 1750s were 327 acres (about 200 football pitches) compared to the current 50 odd acres of the park.
The lower grounds were 31 acres. This included a cricket ground (where Nelson/Jardine/Endicott Roads are now) and a bowling green. The green survived until the mid sixties, located near where the McGregor statue is. I'm sure our older posters remember it, I just remember my Dad pointing out it's location to me, outside the 1970s club shop. Some of the aquarium buildings remained as the club offices into the 1970s, I remember them being demolished.
There was talk of them being modernised, which would have been a fine thing, but unfortunately they were in such a state that they were condemned and demolished in 1980.
Here's some more, and a new mystery (more Lower Grounds than Villa related). The cricket ground I mentioned was also a football ground, considered the biggest sporting venue in Birmingham. When the owner of the Lower Grouns, Mr Quilter, went bust in 1888 it was built over, by the three streets that are there now.
However, Wisden lists cricket being played on the Lower Grounds, Trinity Road, between 1865 and 1954, mostly by Aston Unity. Any idea where this could be? Could it be the current pitch opposite Lodge Road? Maybe the team moved venues but kept the name.
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Did the club not own land further up Trinity Road - probably where the cricket pitch now is?
I think this was the land used as a training ground until the mid sixties when it was sold by the then board in order to help make ends meet.
Bear with me on this, I'll get to the point. It all comes from the Aston Unity link.
Unity played on the actual Lower Grounds pitch from 1880 to 1881. They then played on the existing Cricket pitch from 1881 to 1908. They then moved to adjacent land, the Hercules factory sports club, until 1954. Villa shared this with them, using it as our training ground. (all three cricket sites are referred to as Aston Lower Grounds in Wisden). Villa might have bought it at some point, but at least to start with it belonged to Hercules. If you look on a map, Townley Gardens was built on the site.
Most of this comes from a book called aLost Teams of the Midlands by Mike Bradbury. I'm not sure how reliable it is. I'm trying to do a bit of fact checking, I'll post some other early Villa related stuff later.
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Did the club not own land further up Trinity Road - probably where the cricket pitch now is?
I think this was the land used as a training ground until the mid sixties when it was sold by the then board in order to help make ends meet.
Bear with me on this, I'll get to the point. It all comes from the Aston Unity link.
Unity played on the actual Lower Grounds pitch from 1880 to 1881. They then played on the existing Cricket pitch from 1881 to 1908. They then moved to adjacent land, the Hercules factory sports club, until 1954. Villa shared this with them, using it as our training ground. (all three cricket sites are referred to as Aston Lower Grounds in Wisden). Villa might have bought it at some point, but at least to start with it belonged to Hercules. If you look on a map, Townley Gardens was built on the site.
Most of this comes from a book called aLost Teams of the Midlands by Mike Bradbury. I'm not sure how reliable it is. I'm trying to do a bit of fact checking, I'll post some other early Villa related stuff later.
Whichever site it was, Villa definitely bought it at some point, I remember it being sold in the sixties to make ends meet.
There certainly must have been more than one cricket ground in the Aston Lower grounds. The main one that I have seen on maps is adjacent to Villa Park. I have also seen it as an athletics ground.
The Aston Lower Grounds actually spawned three major sports clubs - Villa, Warwickshire CCC and Birchfield Harriers.
The ALG has hosted two first class cricket games - Gentleman of the North vs London Gentlemen and Australians vs an England XI, it also hosted several minor counties games, being used by both Warwickshire (before the move to Edgbaston) and Staffs.
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just going back to the team that lost 2-4 to Stourbridge in April 1959 is that Big Ron named as the Atkinson in the team?
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just going back to the team that lost 2-4 to Stourbridge in April 1959 is that Big Ron named as the Atkinson in the team?
More than likely. He was still here then and the lack of recognisable names indicates that it was a third or fourth team that played, which was his level, rather than the reserves. Kevin Keelan, later of Norwuch, was in goal. Good spot.
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just going back to the team that lost 2-4 to Stourbridge in April 1959 is that Big Ron named as the Atkinson in the team?
More than likely. He was still here then and the lack of recognisable names indicates that it was a third or fourth team that played, which was his level, rather than the reserves. Kevin Keelan, later of Norwuch, was in goal. Good spot.
Wasn't Graham Atkinson here at the same time though. Could it have been him?
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just going back to the team that lost 2-4 to Stourbridge in April 1959 is that Big Ron named as the Atkinson in the team?
More than likely. He was still here then and the lack of recognisable names indicates that it was a third or fourth team that played, which was his level, rather than the reserves. Kevin Keelan, later of Norwuch, was in goal. Good spot.
Wasn't Graham Atkinson here at the same time though. Could it have been him?
A bit later and I think he was a forward.
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According to Wiki (yes I know) he was a striker but could have still been at the club "He was released for the occasional game for Headington United (the team later to become Oxford United) during 1959-1960 and before reaching his 17th birthday (when he could have signed full-time for Aston Villa), he signed for the Southern Leaguers." His 17th birthday would have been in 1960.
Ron moved to Oxford in the summer of 1959.
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just going back to the team that lost 2-4 to Stourbridge in April 1959 is that Big Ron named as the Atkinson in the team?
More than likely. He was still here then and the lack of recognisable names indicates that it was a third or fourth team that played, which was his level, rather than the reserves. Kevin Keelan, later of Norwuch, was in goal. Good spot.
When I saw Ron score with a towering header for Oxford against the Blues in the sixties or early seventies. Graham Atkinson was playing in the half back line.Actually I think I can check that hang on a minute!
Wasn't Graham Atkinson here at the same time though. Could it have been him?
A bit later and I think he was a forward.
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According to Wiki (yes I know) he was a striker but could have still been at the club "He was released for the occasional game for Headington United (the team later to become Oxford United) during 1959-1960 and before reaching his 17th birthday (when he could have signed full-time for Aston Villa), he signed for the Southern Leaguers." His 17th birthday would have been in 1960.
Ron moved to Oxford in the summer of 1959.
You're more likely to have a 20 year old who's on his way out playing in a friendly against a Birmingham League club than a 16 year old.
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According to Wiki (yes I know) he was a striker but could have still been at the club "He was released for the occasional game for Headington United (the team later to become Oxford United) during 1959-1960 and before reaching his 17th birthday (when he could have signed full-time for Aston Villa), he signed for the Southern Leaguers." His 17th birthday would have been in 1960.
Ron moved to Oxford in the summer of 1959.
You're more likely to have a 20 year old who's on his way out playing in a friendly against a Birmingham League club than a 16 year old.
My mate has just been up in his loft and got out the relevant programme which confirms Graham Atkinson was upfront and Ron was at wing half. We both
remember Ron's goal though at the Tilton Rd end. A cross came in from the left and Ron rose like a gazelle to head it into the top of the net!
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Did the club not own land further up Trinity Road - probably where the cricket pitch now is?
I think this was the land used as a training ground until the mid sixties when it was sold by the then board in order to help make ends meet.
Bear with me on this, I'll get to the point. It all comes from the Aston Unity link.
Unity played on the actual Lower Grounds pitch from 1880 to 1881. They then played on the existing Cricket pitch from 1881 to 1908. They then moved to adjacent land, the Hercules factory sports club, until 1954. Villa shared this with them, using it as our training ground. (all three cricket sites are referred to as Aston Lower Grounds in Wisden). Villa might have bought it at some point, but at least to start with it belonged to Hercules. If you look on a map, Townley Gardens was built on the site.
Most of this comes from a book called aLost Teams of the Midlands by Mike Bradbury. I'm not sure how reliable it is. I'm trying to do a bit of fact checking, I'll post some other early Villa related stuff later.
Whichever site it was, Villa definitely bought it at some point, I remember it being sold in the sixties to make ends meet.
There certainly must have been more than one cricket ground in the Aston Lower grounds. The main one that I have seen on maps is adjacent to Villa Park. I have also seen it as an athletics ground.
The Aston Lower Grounds actually spawned three major sports clubs - Villa, Warwickshire CCC and Birchfield Harriers.
The ALG has hosted two first class cricket games - Gentleman of the North vs London Gentlemen and Australians vs an England XI, it also hosted several minor counties games, being used by both Warwickshire (before the move to Edgbaston) and Staffs.
It might well have been the Hercules ground. We already trained there, and there were big redundancies at Hercules from the mid 1950s, with all production moving to NottinghM in 1960. So it is very likely that they let it go during that period.
I've come across reference to at least half a dozen cricket grounds in the proximity to Villa Park.- two on the Lower Grounds, another in Aston Park, the two further up Trinity Road, one near the HP Sauce factory, one on Rocky Lane. It was pretty rural back then, so there was plenty of room.
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Did the club not own land further up Trinity Road - probably where the cricket pitch now is?
I think this was the land used as a training ground until the mid sixties when it was sold by the then board in order to help make ends meet.
Bear with me on this, I'll get to the point. It all comes from the Aston Unity link.
Unity played on the actual Lower Grounds pitch from 1880 to 1881. They then played on the existing Cricket pitch from 1881 to 1908. They then moved to adjacent land, the Hercules factory sports club, until 1954. Villa shared this with them, using it as our training ground. (all three cricket sites are referred to as Aston Lower Grounds in Wisden). Villa might have bought it at some point, but at least to start with it belonged to Hercules. If you look on a map, Townley Gardens was built on the site.
Most of this comes from a book called aLost Teams of the Midlands by Mike Bradbury. I'm not sure how reliable it is. I'm trying to do a bit of fact checking, I'll post some other early Villa related stuff later.
Whichever site it was, Villa definitely bought it at some point, I remember it being sold in the sixties to make ends meet.
There certainly must have been more than one cricket ground in the Aston Lower grounds. The main one that I have seen on maps is adjacent to Villa Park. I have also seen it as an athletics ground.
The Aston Lower Grounds actually spawned three major sports clubs - Villa, Warwickshire CCC and Birchfield Harriers.
The ALG has hosted two first class cricket games - Gentleman of the North vs London Gentlemen and Australians vs an England XI, it also hosted several minor counties games, being used by both Warwickshire (before the move to Edgbaston) and Staffs.
It might well have been the Hercules ground. We already trained there, and there were big redundancies at Hercules from the mid 1950s, with all production moving to NottinghM in 1960. So it is very likely that they let it go during that period.
I've come across reference to at least half a dozen cricket grounds in the proximity to Villa Park.- two on the Lower Grounds, another in Aston Park, the two further up Trinity Road, one near the HP Sauce factory, one on Rocky Lane, another on the Broadway school site. It was pretty rural back then, so there was plenty of room.
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"It might well have been the Hercules ground. We already trained there, and there were big redundancies at Hercules from the mid 1950s, with all production moving to NottinghM in 1960. So it is very likely that they let it go during that period."
Hercules were a big employer in the area .My dad's first job at 14 was there and I've still got a badge of his from their social club. I've often wondered if the naming of Hercules the Villa matchday mascott was a nod to Astonian history or chance?
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just going back to the team that lost 2-4 to Stourbridge in April 1959 is that Big Ron named as the Atkinson in the team?
More than likely. He was still here then and the lack of recognisable names indicates that it was a third or fourth team that played, which was his level, rather than the reserves. Kevin Keelan, later of Norwuch, was in goal. Good spot.
Wasn't Graham Atkinson here at the same time though. Could it have been him?
I know he was born in Liverpool , I am pretty sure a young Graham Atkinson played for the county alongside my Uncle Bob around late 60's/early 70's...does anyone know if the county side were called Birmingham Boys ? as this rings a bell.
I must email Bob in Canada and ask the question...
UTV
The Doc
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Sorry to bump this thread at this time.
Anyway, found this photo and thought of this thread.
(http://i.imgur.com/4dw0iIx.png)
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Great pic..any idea on which end/angle this is? And date?
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Great pic..any idea on which end/angle this is? And date?
Its from around 1959.
Not to sure where about it is. I assume thats the source factory in the background.
Also, the lack of Aston Parish Church maybe a of help (but not to me!).
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Great pic..any idea on which end/angle this is? And date?
If that's the HP factory on the horizon, then it has to have been taken from where the North Stand is now I would have thought.
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I know its early in the morning but I am really confused by this picture.I don't think its Villa Park Morris unless you can persuade me it is.It says new ground Villa Park was opened in 1907.Is it the training pitch?
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I think it is the old training grounds further up Trinity Road from VP, which were acquired about that time and then sold in the sixties. There are actually two football pitches on that photo.
Good find, Morris.
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Well I never knew Trinity Road ran all the way up to Heathfield Road. Looking on Google maps there is still a big sports ground on Trinity Road. There are also a lot of new-ish houses on the northern side as your head up to the A34. Looking the other was I'm not sure you could see the HP factory as the hill of Aston Hall is in the way.
On another note, there are still some old brick works at the back of the lower North Stand and Trinity corner that could be part of the old Aquarium block.
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I think the last bits of the aquarium block went in the late eighties.
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It's only about 8ft of wall, but it's really old. I could never work out if it was the old trinity or older than that.
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It's only about 8ft of wall, but it's really old. I could never work out if it was the old trinity or older than that.
I think it's part of the old boundary wall . It used to have goalposts painted on it and I fondly imagined they were from the Friday morning car park five a sides Ron Saunders used to run for the squad.