Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: ChicagoLion on July 09, 2015, 10:49:54 PM
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I think a vote is the best way to get an understanding.
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Get rid. Small time nonsense best left to lower league clubs.
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Not sure what I've done exactly.
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Not sure what I've done exactly.
I've got a long list. It's a definite "yes" from me! Let's ban Drummond!
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Not that this vote will particularly matter but I accidentally voted no instead of yes. What a plum.
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It's horrendous as far as I'm concerned. If you're looking for 'individuality' by making these banners or whatever then a drum really isn't the best supplement.
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I didnt realise it was a Brigada thing? They usually are really cool. I am surprised.
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Hate the drum. It's just so Bolton.
Irritating too.
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Not Bothered but then I sit in the Upper Holte - it may be more annoying if you are right by it
I fancy sitting with Brigada for a Cup match as my usual chums seldom attend them
At least ir's not a vuvuzela!
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Get rid. Small time nonsense best left to lower league clubs.
I agree, get rid of it
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By way of compromise, would fans settle for a tambourine?
A triangle?
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By way of compromise, would fans settle for a tambourine?
A triangle?
I could always bring my Kazoo down for the match...
UTV
The Doc
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We could all just hum.
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I think a flute would be better.
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We could all just hum.
Just as long as that isn't combined with using old style noise makers.
Rattle and Hum is frowned upon by the H&V collective
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We could all just hum.
In the Trinity we all just tut and shake our heads sagely.
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Is the drum less popular than Lambert yet
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Keep it you miserable bunch of old farts. It adds atmosphere! it also plays a part in getting the crowd going. I would ask that the drummer applies common sense and consideration with how much it is used though, I can imagine if you are sat in close proximity an instrument player who insists on going for the full 90mins it could be annoying.
I havent had the pleasure of being behind one of those massive flag wavers yet but I could imagine that would be even more annoying than the drum
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Not sure what I've done exactly.
Force you out Drummund and I'm out too
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I voted not bothered, because I'm.... not bothered
im in my early 50's so I don't do much singing and chanting nowadays, so if the younger fans want to beat a drum they better be getting on with it
I guarantee most people voting no will be over 40, you will use excuses like 'small time' to justify banning the drum but the real reason is your to old, and don't like anything new or changes to the routine
for those in there 20's voting no, your old before your time,
you probably drive a Mondeo estate or a old merc 300d let your hair down and go out and buy a 2 seater sports car and live a little while you can
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I don't like the drum because I think it is shit. In the same way that I think that people making sweeping generalisations is shit.
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I'm there to watch the football. I really don't understand why people feel the need to bang a drum or wave a flag during the game
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Get rid. Small time nonsense best left to lower league clubs.
I'm sure a number of clubs in the chumps league use drums the small time wankers....
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Hopefully the club will come to its senses and ban the bloody drum.
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I can't imagine being by the drum, the noise would f**k me off no end. Then again something blocking my vision wouldn't please me either.
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No drum ta very much
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Well that escalated quickly, you come on here to post a season review and next thing the pitch forks are being sharpened.
Like i've said on the other thread the point of the drum is simply to keep a rhythm to the songs, it's not meant to drown out songs or be beat at random times. The sound should be a background beat and we have modified the drum to make it sound more like a seat being clattered and less bassey.
I personally think it adds to the atmosphere, it keeps the rhythm ticking over, stops people from going too fast with songs and them burning out and keeps songs going longer. L8 last seaosn was definitely louder following the addition of the drum. As long as it contributes to the atmosphere in a positive way then I think it's a good thing.
In terms of this whole "small time" argument i don't buy it at all. Yeah Wigan had a drum once, i've no idea if they still do, but so do the likes of Dortmiund and Bayern. It isn't really the point either, it's not about the size of the club, it's about improving the atmosphere. The best examples of fans using a drum in the UK are the likes of Palace, Celtic and Rangers, the atmosphere at Selhurst Park is quality, it's probbably the ground where the noise and passion of the fans is most noted by pundits and journalists and having a drum there definitely helps.
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As as been said before Palace haven't got a good atmosphere, theirs is way too orchestrated.
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As as been said before Palace haven't got a good atmosphere, theirs is way too orchestrated.
Manufactured in fact.
But there's something else becoming evident as this thread evolves. The opinion of the majority on here shows that the drum should be ditched. That's not entirely indicative of all the Villa support but I'd guess it isn't far off the reality. What we are now seeing is bruisedshins making his point based on rhythm backed up with how great Palace's support is (it really isn't) and because of that, sod anybody else who disagrees because bruisedshins and co no better.
The General some years back was informed by many of us that music after a goal was a complete and utter no no. He took heed. The drum isn't as bad but right up there in my opinion for shitness and small timeness. bruisedshins should look and listen to what the majority of other supporters are saying and also take heed. If not, I'm sure a petition against the drum for the reasons outlined given to the club might force their hand. That would be a shame as in the main the efforts of the Brigada lot are welcome.
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the atmosphere at Selhurst Park is quality, it's probbably the ground where the noise and passion of the fans is most noted by pundits and journalists and having a drum there definitely helps.
Support from the fans should be natural, artificial cheerleading is not required. Please get rid of the drum
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As as been said before Palace haven't got a good atmosphere, theirs is way too orchestrated.
Well if someone said it it must be true Dave. Are you able to explain how singing and clapping at football is not an atmopshere? If you're suggesting that an atmosphere cannot exist if it is orchestrated, that is if people attempt to make it, then are you suggesting there is no atmosphere at the Allianz Arena, the Stadio Olimipico or any other ground where organised supporters groups support their team?
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the atmosphere at Selhurst Park is quality, it's probbably the ground where the noise and passion of the fans is most noted by pundits and journalists and having a drum there definitely helps.
Support from the fans should be natural, artificial cheerleading is not required. Please get rid of the drum
Artificial cheerleading? Is that supposed to be an insult? Are you describing people who bleed claret and blue and have supported this club for years home and away cheerleaders? Are you suggetsing we're paid by the club and only turn up on match day because we're told to do so? If that's what your implying then that's low.
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As as been said before Palace haven't got a good atmosphere, theirs is way too orchestrated.
Well if someone said it it must be true Dave. Are you able to explain how singing and clapping at football is not an atmopshere? If you're suggesting that an atmosphere cannot exist if it is orchestrated, that is if people attempt to make it, then are you suggesting there is no atmosphere at the Allianz Arena, the Stadio Olimipico or any other ground where organised supporters groups support their team?
I didn't say it was no atmosphere, I said it wasn't a good atmosphere and certainly nothing like the cauldron it's made out to be.
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I think it's a good thing.
You're entitled to your opinion. However, this thread, the thread we had on the subject before and the rections of people I've spoken to and sat near, seem to suggest that the majority of fans don't like it. You're, effectively, forcing the drum on fans and ignoring others' opinions.
Why not respect the wishes of the majority, ditch the drum, and continue contributing to the atmosphere in positive ways?
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Are you suggetsing we're paid by the club and only turn up on match day because we're told to do so? If that's what your implying then that's low.
Not sure how you read being paid by the club or doing what they say into my comment.
You've supported the club for years and now you use a drum. I, along with what appears to be the majority on here, don't like the drum.
In your own post you said that the drum was to maintain the rhythm and keep the songs/chants going longer.
Songs/chants should come and go with the natural flow of the game and the mood of the crowd. Therefore what you are doing is artificial cheerleading.
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Are you suggetsing we're paid by the club and only turn up on match day because we're told to do so? If that's what your implying then that's low.
Not sure how you read that into my comment.
Yes, you've supported the club for years and now you use a drum. I, along with what appears to be the majority on here, don't like the drum.
You refered to us as "cheerleaders", I pressume you mean those people who are paid to attend sporting events and wave pom-poms around.
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Manufactured to me means music played in from the public address system, song sheets (I've never seen any) thousands of all the same plastic flags, corporately made banners etc
Not a drum or a homemade flag or banner
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Are you suggetsing we're paid by the club and only turn up on match day because we're told to do so? If that's what your implying then that's low.
Not sure how you read that into my comment.
Yes, you've supported the club for years and now you use a drum. I, along with what appears to be the majority on here, don't like the drum.
You refered to us as "cheerleaders", I pressume you mean those people who are paid to attend sporting events and wave pom-poms around.
That's only one form of cheerleading. There's also the people you see at some European and MLS matches, who stand with their backs to the game while coordinating the crowd singing/chanting.
Then, at the next level down from that, is the use of drums to, as you said yourself, maintain rhythm and prevent chants from naturally petering out
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Are you suggetsing we're paid by the club and only turn up on match day because we're told to do so? If that's what your implying then that's low.
Not sure how you read that into my comment.
Yes, you've supported the club for years and now you use a drum. I, along with what appears to be the majority on here, don't like the drum.
You refered to us as "cheerleaders", I pressume you mean those people who are paid to attend sporting events and wave pom-poms around.
That's only one form of cheerleading. There's also the people you see at some European and MLS matches, who stand with their backs to the game while coordinating the crowd singing/chanting.
Then, at the next level down from that, is the use of drums to, as you said yourself, maintain rhythm and prevent chants from naturally petering out
The word you're looking for then is ultras.
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...and the Ultra with the drum is therefore a Cheerleader
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I don't like the drum either, it's not needed.
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I find it funny that "cheerleader" is seen as an insult. Maybe my testosterone levels are low.
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Get rid.
It sounds like a 90 minute soundcheck.
Sutton Coldfield Town bought one to Halesowen a couple of seasons ago, on a cold Tuesday night with 300 odd in the ground, it sounded like a heavy press in a factory.
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I find it funny that "cheerleader" is seen as an insult. Maybe my testosterone levels are low.
Mmmmmmm....... Minka Kelly in 'Friday Night Lights'
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The best general sustained atmosphere (ie not just after a goal but during a whole game) I have heard at any away game in the past 5 years was Palace away in April 2014. I don't like the place, and I have no soft spot for them whatsoever, but based on attending away games and listening to radio commentary of matches they are one of the few Premier league teams with good vocal support at home.
You can argue that the Holmesdale support is manufactured, but it definitely creates an atmosphere.
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The best general sustained atmosphere (ie not just after a goal but during a whole game) I have heard at any away game in the past 5 years was Palace away in April 2014. I don't like the place, and I have no soft spot for them whatsoever, but based on attending away games and listening to radio commentary of matches they are one of the few Premier league teams with good vocal support at home.
You can argue that the Holmesdale support is manufactured, but it definitely creates an atmosphere.
I'd agree, I think Palaces home support is impressive and consistently loud, if you consider what it used to be like 8 or 9 years ago they've made huge improvements.
I'm not a fan of the term manufactured when it comes to that style of support though, yeah it's organised, but it's also organic in that the supporters who formed the Holmesdale Fanatics did so off their own backs with the intention of improving the support. The term manufactured makes me think of the club sending out invites to choir practices.
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i prefer a cello to a drum.
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Since when did supporting your team mean you turn yourself into a rather shit Cozy Powell wannabe.
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Since when did supporting your team mean you turn yourself into a rather shit Cozy Powell wannabe.
We used to sing "We are the mighty, mighty Holte End" to a Cozy Powell tune years ago.
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Palace are utter shite with quite possibly the most annoying song going;
"Wooooooh! Palace, Palace, Palace!
That's the way we like it, like it, like it!"
Closely followed by;
"We're the red and blue army" dirge.
Fuck off you cock sockets! You travel 7,000 miles to get to Selhurst Park, you can cope with the fact that its an utter shit heap, but they have those whoppers in the corner banging a fucking drum and droning on.
Where is the wit, the humour, the spontaneity?
Edit: To add, as we actually managed to win with a clean sheet, so I'd quite forgotten, Palace complete the bingo of wanky small time-y-ness by having goal music as well.
1) Shit songs
2) Coordinated singing section
3) A fucking drum
4) Goal music
"Dum, dum, dum.... GLAD ALL OVER"
Fuck off and die Palace.
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Great rant.
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Palace, Palace!
That's the way we like it, like it, like it!"
I quite like that one
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Palace, Palace!
That's the way we like it, like it, like it!"
I quite like that one
You've never been encumbered by the need to fit in with popular opinion have you?
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Alright, alright, keep the drum. Just ban the drumsticks.
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Must admit sitting in the Upper Holte I find the drum annoying. Next thing is we'll be getting those plastic clappy things which Leicester (and others) had last season to make it sound like more people clapping than were actually there.
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Some of you guys would have a heart attack if someone bought in an old time rattle and sat next to you
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I think it's a good thing.
You're entitled to your opinion. However, this thread, the thread we had on the subject before and the rections of people I've spoken to and sat near, seem to suggest that the majority of fans don't like it. You're, effectively, forcing the drum on fans and ignoring others' opinions.
Why not respect the wishes of the majority, ditch the drum, and continue contributing to the atmosphere in positive ways?
I honestly don't think this place is at all reflective of the Villa support
Curb is one of the favourite sitcoms, the hatred for Bono is of the scale, on the politics thread it's always leaning left, sometimes very left, people's music choices are bands no ones heard of
The real world is not like H&V
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Since when did supporting your team mean you turn yourself into a rather shit Cozy Powell wannabe.
Cozy Powell!! Probably tells you all you need to know about the average age on this site ;)
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Since when did supporting your team mean you turn yourself into a rather shit Cozy Powell wannabe.
We used to sing "We are the mighty, mighty Holte End" to a Cozy Powell tune years ago.
Nut rocker by Bee Bumble and the Stingers , surely
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I personally think it adds to the atmosphere, it keeps the rhythm ticking over, stops people from going too fast with songs and them burning out and keeps songs going longer. L8 last seaosn was definitely louder following the addition of the drum. As long as it contributes to the atmosphere in a positive way then I think it's a good thing.
I like Brigada but please have a think about what just about everyone (not just here but I am sure at the ground) are telling you.
The drum is just awful. It (and by extension Brigada) over time will become as hated as the England band. You don't want that.
Continuing to do something most fans find irritating will not add to the atmosphere in a positive way.
It was a mistake, happily now you know it didnt work. You can get back to thinking of other things to do support wise next season, Brigada is good at that, I am sure you have a ton of other great ideas per usual. Do those instead.
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How is everyone with coordinated seat banging ? !
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How is everyone with coordinated seat banging ? !
We can get a bit anal about that type of thing
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How is everyone with coordinated seat banging ? !
We can get a bit anal about that time of thing
OK between consulting adults.
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Anybody taking a drum to a football match should be held up to public ridicule. Or go to watch Portsmouth or Sheffield Wednesday or Bolton.
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I think it's a good thing.
You're entitled to your opinion. However, this thread, the thread we had on the subject before and the rections of people I've spoken to and sat near, seem to suggest that the majority of fans don't like it. You're, effectively, forcing the drum on fans and ignoring others' opinions.
Why not respect the wishes of the majority, ditch the drum, and continue contributing to the atmosphere in positive ways?
I honestly don't think this place is at all reflective of the Villa support
Curb is one of the favourite sitcoms, the hatred for Bono is of the scale, on the politics thread it's always leaning left, sometimes very left, people's music choices are bands no ones heard of
The real world is not like H&V
I also mentioned people around me. Where I sit. In the Lower Holte. Near the sodding drum! Everyone around me has been saying it's shite and annoying since its debut. I've never heard any budding Russ Abbott getting excited about the "atmosphere".
The hatred for Bono on here is too restrained for my liking.
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The current main topic in the music section is Led Zep. I'm pretty sure that most people have heard of them
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No to the drum. Especially when the drummer starts playing it in the concourse and does not look behind them before a certain someone who was walking behind him nearly got smacked in the head with the beater.
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The current main topic in the music section is Led Zep. I'm pretty sure that most people have heard of them
I think we should all start listening to the popular beat combos like Coldplay and Kasabian to see what we're missing out on.
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Perhaps Mr Nigel Kennedy with his shoulder banjo would be a better option.
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I hate musical instruments at a game. It's shit.
Rather than encourage more singing it puts people off.
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I hate musical instruments at a game. It's shit.
It's almost as bad as having them at a U2 gig.
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How is everyone with coordinated seat banging ? !
We can get a bit anal about that type of thing
bum bum
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I think there is a difference between someone in the crowd banging one and the club employing someone to do it. The sound of the drum might be annoying but unless it is club supplied, "small time" seems a bit harsh.
Incidentally, the biggest of clubs are capable of looking small time sometimes. Unless it is some tradition going back a century, for example, the Arsenal behind-goal flag wavers are incredibly Bolton.
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We need that bloke off the Police Academy movies to make lots of odd sound effects in the crowd.
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Such as clapping and cheering?
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I personally think it adds to the atmosphere, it keeps the rhythm ticking over, stops people from going too fast with songs and them burning out and keeps songs going longer. L8 last seaosn was definitely louder following the addition of the drum. As long as it contributes to the atmosphere in a positive way then I think it's a good thing.
I like Brigada but please have a think about what just about everyone (not just here but I am sure at the ground) are telling you.
The drum is just awful. It (and by extension Brigada) over time will become as hated as the England band. You don't want that.
Continuing to do something most fans find irritating will not add to the atmosphere in a positive way.
It was a mistake, happily now you know it didnt work. You can get back to thinking of other things to do support wise next season, Brigada is good at that, I am sure you have a ton of other great ideas per usual. Do those instead.
exactly , why not listen to what Villa Fans are telling you?
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....maybe because a website made up of some of the most self confessed miserable bastards on the Internet is still only 2/3 against it?
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Why make the miserable bastards, myself included, more miserable? We have the football to do that.
The drum is just annoying as fuck. It's got to go.
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Why make the miserable bastards, myself included, more miserable? We have the football to do that.
Ha ha. Who needs musical instruments to feel down when we have the muppets on the pitch to do that.
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How is everyone with coordinated seat banging ? !
We can get a bit anal about that time of thing
OK between consulting adults.
Yes. Always seek medical advice before consenting.
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I think the death penalty should be brought back for the drummer.
Seriously though I'm annoyed if someone is tapping their feet when watching the telly so I'm not the most rational person to ask.
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I personally think it adds to the atmosphere, it keeps the rhythm ticking over, stops people from going too fast with songs and them burning out and keeps songs going longer. L8 last seaosn was definitely louder following the addition of the drum. As long as it contributes to the atmosphere in a positive way then I think it's a good thing.
I like Brigada but please have a think about what just about everyone (not just here but I am sure at the ground) are telling you.
The drum is just awful. It (and by extension Brigada) over time will become as hated as the England band. You don't want that.
Continuing to do something most fans find irritating will not add to the atmosphere in a positive way.
It was a mistake, happily now you know it didnt work. You can get back to thinking of other things to do support wise next season, Brigada is good at that, I am sure you have a ton of other great ideas per usual. Do those instead.
exactly , why not listen to what Villa Fans are telling you?
majority of Villa fans arnt telling him, just a few old geezers on a fan site
I bet there is thousands of fans turning up at VP not in the least bit bothered about someone hitting a drum beat, it's football ground mate not the crucible
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Similarly, just because a few souls who (laudably) try to add a bit of atmosphere have introduced a drum doesn't mean the majority are loving it. Indeed, there may be tens of thousands of EYEBROWS RAISED at any one time.
I think a referendum is required. Or a half-time "Clapometer" or show of hands.
For the record, I hate the drum; the drum must go: AADBHDJ!*
*Armchair Anti-Drum Brigade Handing Down Justice.
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I personally think it adds to the atmosphere, it keeps the rhythm ticking over, stops people from going too fast with songs and them burning out and keeps songs going longer. L8 last seaosn was definitely louder following the addition of the drum. As long as it contributes to the atmosphere in a positive way then I think it's a good thing.
I like Brigada but please have a think about what just about everyone (not just here but I am sure at the ground) are telling you.
The drum is just awful. It (and by extension Brigada) over time will become as hated as the England band. You don't want that.
Continuing to do something most fans find irritating will not add to the atmosphere in a positive way.
It was a mistake, happily now you know it didnt work. You can get back to thinking of other things to do support wise next season, Brigada is good at that, I am sure you have a ton of other great ideas per usual. Do those instead.
exactly , why not listen to what Villa Fans are telling you?
majority of Villa fans arnt telling him, just a few old geezers on a fan site
I bet there is thousands of fans turning up at VP not in the least bit bothered about someone hitting a drum beat, it's football ground mate not the crucible
[/quote
"Old geezers" on the Internet actually go to the games as well. None of the people I sit in the Holte with like that bloody drum.
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My nephew, who is 26, and his mates like the drum.
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I'm 40, and I couldn't give a shit about it.
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What I would like at Villa Park is noisy, consistent singing of positive Villa chants before, during and after the game. What we normally get, thanks in no small part to the dire football, is decent singing at the start followed by moans and groans with the upper Holte sporadically bursting into voice. The drum, in my opinion, is better than the latter and anything that encourages people to sing will be looked on positively by me. It's not perfect by any means and I can see why some find it a bit annoying but I certainly don't think it should be got rid of, at least until it is drowned out by chanting and cheering so that it becomes obsolete.
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For those who love singing at football matches, the best way to encourage more of it is to do more of it.
Come on chaps, "sing yer 'arts out fo' the lads"
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i dont mind the drum , so keep it
its better than that bloke kicking the side of the holte
and why not bring back the aerosol horn from the 70s
der der ,,,,,,der der der ,,,,,,,,der der der der VILLA
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I don't mind the drum. Infact during the reigns of tsm and totsm it kept me awake during the games.
more pro drum than anti drum
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The drum wasn't around for their reigns. If debuted at the Stoke game, just after Sherwood had taken over, I think.
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In the latest piece of evidence for the argument that drums are for twats... West Brom have got one, I notice.
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In the latest piece of evidence for the argument that drums are for twats... West Brom have got one, I notice.
I think the case is proven.
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In the latest piece of evidence for the argument that drums are for twats... West Brom have got one, I notice.
I think the case is proven.
They have floodlights too.
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Do they hit them with a big stick to piss off people sitting around them?
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For those who love singing at football matches, the best way to encourage more of it is to do more of it.
Come on chaps, "sing yer 'arts out fo' the lads"
This is you trying to find some common ground with the urchins isn't it?
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Drums at football games are a definite NO, very uncool and very irritating. QPR had one in the late 1960s when I was a kid and I didn't like it then. Luckily some opposition fans (possibly ours) managed to get hold of it and smash it up.
Now air raid sirens are a different thing, very good being sounded off as a corner is about to be swung in.
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Talking of uncool things, I noticed on MOTD that Leicester fans still have those plastic clappy things as obviously they can't co-ordinate their hands sufficiently to clap like normal people.
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Do they hit them with a big stick to piss off people sitting around them?
Probably, this is West Brom you are talking about.
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Talking of uncool things, I noticed on MOTD that Leicester fans still have those plastic clappy things as obviously they can't co-ordinate their hands sufficiently to clap like normal people.
Yes, I saw that too. It makes them all look like they've never been to a football match before and this is some inducement to get them to come along and 'get with the programme'. Distinctly uncool.
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Do they hit them with a big stick to piss off people sitting around them?
Probably, this is West Brom you are talking about.
It's West Brom. There wouldn't be any people sitting around them.
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Do they hit them with a big stick to piss off people sitting around them?
Probably, this is West Brom you are talking about.
It's West Brom. There wouldn't be any people sitting around them.
They just thought they had bought 2 big toffee apples and a small table.
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Isn't the bloke who bangs it called drake?
So it's drakes drum
Haven't been in there for ages
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I used to serve behind the bar in that shit-hole.
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I used to serve behind the bar in that shit-hole.
There was a chap who used to ring up Tom Ross who pretend to be an indian bloke. I think he said he used to ring from the Drakes Drum but I might be wrong.
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Talking of uncool things, I noticed on MOTD that Leicester fans still have those plastic clappy things as obviously they can't co-ordinate their hands sufficiently to clap like normal people.
Leicester rival Albion for having the most cringe worthy set of supporters in the league.
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I used to serve behind the bar in that shit-hole.
There was a chap who used to ring up Tom Ross who pretend to be an indian bloke. I think he said he used to ring from the Drakes Drum but I might be wrong.
Correct. That'd be "Ashok from the Drakey Drum". I heard he was dead now unfortunately.
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I used to serve behind the bar in that shit-hole.
There was a chap who used to ring up Tom Ross who pretend to be an indian bloke. I think he said he used to ring from the Drakes Drum but I might be wrong.
He died many years ago.
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I used to serve behind the bar in that shit-hole.
There was a chap who used to ring up Tom Ross who pretend to be an indian bloke. I think he said he used to ring from the Drakes Drum but I might be wrong.
He died many years ago.
Shame it wasn't this week, he'd have made the celebrity deathwatch thread, there's a bloody dog made it in there today.
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I used to serve behind the bar in that shit-hole.
There was a chap who used to ring up Tom Ross who pretend to be an indian bloke. I think he said he used to ring from the Drakes Drum but I might be wrong.
He died many years ago.
Shame it wasn't this week, he'd have made the celebrity deathwatch thread, there's a bloody dog made it in there today.
He was a handsome little chap.
(https://tribzap2it.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/uggie-the-dog-gi.jpg)
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Can we not change the title of this thread to 'Ditch the Drummer'?
To be fair to the Drum, an inanimate object and has no say in where or how it's played it has done nothing wrong. If it could speak it would probably request to stay at home. The drummer however is another matter. Therefore, I say "Ditch the Drummer"
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But the drummer, on his own, is not a problem. It's only when he brings the drum with him that the problem starts.
Maybe change it to "Ditch the Drumming" or "Ditch the Drum/Drummer Combination"?
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I suggest:
NO FUCKING DRUMS YOU UTTER BASTARDS
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Very well put, thank you
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Drums at football games are a definite NO, very uncool and very irritating. QPR had one in the late 1960s when I was a kid and I didn't like it then. Luckily some opposition fans (possibly ours) managed to get hold of it and smash it up.
Now air raid sirens are a different thing, very good being sounded off as a corner is about to be swung in.
Lincoln City used to have an air raid siren, maybe they still have.
Here it is after being overhauled.
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For those of you interested in drums and it would seem like there's a lot of you, we've modified the drum (no, not by chucking it in the Tame) by adding a layer of insulation inside the drum, this muffles the sound so it now sounds like a seat being stamped or a door being slammed as we originally wanted it to and not a big bassy sound that carries as it did before. We're going to try this for tonights game and see how it goes.
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For those of you interested in drums and it would seem like there's a lot of you, we've modified the drum (no, not by chucking it in the Tame) by adding a layer of insulation inside the drum, this muffles the sound so it now sounds like a seat being stamped or a door being slammed as we originally wanted it to and not a big bassy sound that carries as it did before. We're going to try this for tonights game and see how it goes.
It would go better if the drum was left at home.
Especially tonight, with a packed house and the feel-good factor of the new signings.
The drum is not needed
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I wish you'd stop banging the drum about banging the drum.
Drum
(Though I may do some banging later)
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DRUMS DON'T DRUM PEOPLE. PEOPLE DRUM PEOPLE, ERM, I MEAN DRUMS!
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Can any one explain what happened with the Brigada bunch tonight...all seemingly ejected after about 60 mins?
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Can any one explain what happened with the Brigada bunch tonight...all seemingly ejected after about 60 mins?
Good.
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Reading on Twitter that Brigada all ejected tonight during the game
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Can any one explain what happened with the Brigada bunch tonight...all seemingly ejected after about 60 mins?
Good.
Genuine question...how can a section of our own support being ejected from our own ground be classed as good? Unless there is very good reason and explanation then it's not good in the slightest.
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Something to do with them refusing to sit apparently and complaints from those behind who couldn't see
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If someone behind couldn't see, and asked them to sit down, surely they'd just sit down? Can't believe they'd be inconsiderate. They'll be bringing a drum next.
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Can any one explain what happened with the Brigada bunch tonight...all seemingly ejected after about 60 mins?
Good.
Genuine question...how can a section of our own support being ejected from our own ground be classed as good? Unless there is very good reason and explanation then it's not good in the slightest.
I was was watching them bouncing up and down at the front of the lower Holte from my seat in the Trinity. I presume they've moved to the front after being at the back last year? I can't imagine they've asked the permission of the club or the people who sit behind these seats, if the rumours of them being chucked out are true. That and the issue with the bloke on here sticking up for their use of the drum even though the vast majority think it's shit, make them seem like a pretty inconsiderate bunch.
And I would assume that if they got chucked out for standing, they would have been asked to sit down first.
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In fairness I suppose they could point to the away end and say no attempt whatsoever was made to get them to sit down.
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In fairness I suppose they could point to the away end and say no attempt whatsoever was made to get them to sit down.
Probably no one in the away end made a complaint about people standing. If those behind Brigada complained and after being asked to sit they refused, then the club are duty bound to take action. Maybe it was a case of "one out - all out"?
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Manchester United have a reduced ticket allocation at Villa Park due to persistent standing.
its not a great move for Brigada because them standing there does force standing behind them and potentially, right across the lower as views get obscured for corners & wing play.
It's a shame. I can't see how this is going to work out.
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With who we were playing last night I bet the council were in attendance and the club wanted to show they are doing something about fans standing.
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Dont want this to turn into another standing vs sitting debate...its simply a question about courtesy and consideration for others. At the back of the Holte last night we get to our seats to find middle aged guy and his young son behind us...the first thing we do is ask if the young lad can see, if they mind us standing and kept checking on their views throughout the game. Manners cost nothing.
Anyway, I thought Brigada had an area agreed with the club to avoid this kind of situation? I support what they are doing but they obviously need to be seated at the back of a section.
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Brigada need to be at the back where they can freely stand and support without affecting others view
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The group have moved to the front of L7, the area we've moved to is one where there was a large number of seats available so we could group together and have others join us. Remaining in L8 became untenable for us, firstly because the club would block 20 -30 seats in the area and prevent these seats from being sold, this meant that people who wanted to join us could not do so unless they bought a ticket in another area and moved over thereby risking eviction from the area. These seats were blocked because the club said that people moved over to the area without tickets, which probably did happen on a small level at one point but this was obviously made worse by the club blocking the seats. The second reason we moved was because L8 is small and peripheral and we're not able to grow there in terms of numbers and displays, L7 puts us slightly more central and closer to the action. We considered other areas of the Holte but given the number of seats available in on area and wanting to keep potential disruption to a minimal we chose the front of L7. Ideallly we'd be towards the back of L7 by the railing as when were there for the cup games last season we had a brilliant atmosphere going. This area is taken by other season ticket holders though so it's only an option during cup games.
We published the fact we'd be moving to L7 widely on social media and our forums to let others know to join us in that area. We didn't speak to the club because given their previous behaviour in blocking seats and previous conversations we'd had with them we did not feel that they would help facilitate a move.
During dire circumstances last season the club called together fans, ex players and officials to discuss what could be done to rally the club, a number of good initiatives came out of this, one of which was the decision to make L7 and L8 an offical "singing section". Standing has been common in L8 for the last 2 years, but following the decision to include L7 as part of the "singing section" there was also more standing in that area. Last night there was standing in L8, K4 and other parts of the Holte, however as far as i know we were the only ones who were targetted by the stewards. We had attention from the start and eventually we left when one fan in the section was told to leave for standing on a seat. There was a family with their daughter who understandably weren't happy about us standing, we offered to swap seats so they could see but they didn't want to, after we talked for a while we parted on amicable terms and agreed that we'd try and sort something out so that we didn't block their view again.
This situation wouldn't happen if the club were more forward thinking in helping to facilitate what we do, if the club had been more helpful in organising a section for us then you wouldn't have these situations. We've been around for 5 years now and for the large part have developed a decent relationship with the stewards and some people at the club, however last night was disappointing.
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Is that area at the back of the stand by the wall?
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So basically the situation wouldn't have happened had one of your guys not stood on his seat? Why did you feel the need to all leave if just one person was asked to leave? Why didn't the family behind you want to swap seats so they could continue to watch without an obstructed view?
I would suggest that you need to develop better relations with the club otherwise it sounds like you're going to get kicked out of games more often than not in the seats you've decided to occupy.
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The group have moved to the front of L7, the area we've moved to is one where there was a large number of seats available so we could group together and have others join us. Remaining in L8 became untenable for us, firstly because the club would block 20 -30 seats in the area and prevent these seats from being sold, this meant that people who wanted to join us could not do so unless they bought a ticket in another area and moved over thereby risking eviction from the area. These seats were blocked because the club said that people moved over to the area without tickets, which probably did happen on a small level at one point but this was obviously made worse by the club blocking the seats. The second reason we moved was because L8 is small and peripheral and we're not able to grow there in terms of numbers and displays, L7 puts us slightly more central and closer to the action. We considered other areas of the Holte but given the number of seats available in on area and wanting to keep potential disruption to a minimal we chose the front of L7. Ideallly we'd be towards the back of L7 by the railing as when were there for the cup games last season we had a brilliant atmosphere going. This area is taken by other season ticket holders though so it's only an option during cup games.
We published the fact we'd be moving to L7 widely on social media and our forums to let others know to join us in that area. We didn't speak to the club because given their previous behaviour in blocking seats and previous conversations we'd had with them we did not feel that they would help facilitate a move.
During dire circumstances last season the club called together fans, ex players and officials to discuss what could be done to rally the club, a number of good initiatives came out of this, one of which was the decision to make L7 and L8 an offical "singing section". Standing has been common in L8 for the last 2 years, but following the decision to include L7 as part of the "singing section" there was also more standing in that area. Last night there was standing in L8, K4 and other parts of the Holte, however as far as i know we were the only ones who were targetted by the stewards. We had attention from the start and eventually we left when one fan in the section was told to leave for standing on a seat. There was a family with their daughter who understandably weren't happy about us standing, we offered to swap seats so they could see but they didn't want to, after we talked for a while we parted on amicable terms and agreed that we'd try and sort something out so that we didn't block their view again.
This situation wouldn't happen if the club were more forward thinking in helping to facilitate what we do, if the club had been more helpful in organising a section for us then you wouldn't have these situations. We've been around for 5 years now and for the large part have developed a decent relationship with the stewards and some people at the club, however last night was disappointing.
Did you try something radical, like....well...sitting down and not blocking other people's views ?
Why does your group feel entitled to special treatment from the club ?
The current rule is that fans should should remain seated, so try doing that.
Until standing areas are re-introduced, I'd like to see the all-seated rule enforced for all fans home and away. However, clubs now appear to have given up trying to get away fans to sit down.
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I don't think you understand the concept of what Brigada are trying to do and achieve UK Redsox, and its obviously not possible to that in a seated position. The common sense thing to do would be to speak to the club and have this organised so all parties are happy, and doesn't impact or infringe upon anyone else.
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Is that area at the back of the stand by the wall?
The one we were in for the cup games? It's behind the railing, so the front of the upper section of the lower holte.
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So basically the situation wouldn't have happened had one of your guys not stood on his seat? Why did you feel the need to all leave if just one person was asked to leave? Why didn't the family behind you want to swap seats so they could continue to watch without an obstructed view?
I would suggest that you need to develop better relations with the club otherwise it sounds like you're going to get kicked out of games more often than not in the seats you've decided to occupy.
We were threatened with being booted out for standing so I don't know whether it would've happened or not if he hadn't stood on a seat. I'm not sure why the family didn't want to move, but we were on good terms with them before we left and we apologised for the inconvenience caused so it was all amicable.
We decided that if one of us was getting chucked out we'd all go.
This same situation has happened every time we've moved but it always ends up working itself out, it's just a shame we have to go through this every time but like I say staying where we were was untenable.
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Sounds like you just need to get organised and have an official representative of the group to speak to the club. If agreements are in place then these are translated to the stewards to accommodate the group accordingly on match days. All it takes is a bit of intelligence, communication and common sense.
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I don't think you understand the concept of what Brigada are trying to do and achieve UK Redsox, and its obviously not possible to that in a seated position. The common sense thing to do would be to speak to the club and have this organised so all parties are happy, and doesn't impact or infringe upon anyone else.
I understand what they're trying to do. Its just what they're trying to do is not allowed under the current regulations. Why should they be given special treatment ?
If standing is reintroduced and an area can be set up where Brigada's standing and flag waving does not impact any other supporters (whether standing or seated), then fine**. Until then, they should sit down like everyone else is supposed to.
** my use of the word fine should in know way be construed as condoning the use of the drum, that should be banned at all times.
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Where's that bloke who organised all the 'standers' and 'sitters' areas at Wembley when you need him?
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We were threatened with being booted out for standing so I don't know whether it would've happened or not if he hadn't stood on a seat. I'm not sure why the family didn't want to move, but we were on good terms with them before we left and we apologised for the inconvenience caused so it was all amicable.
We decided that if one of us was getting chucked out we'd all go.
This same situation has happened every time we've moved but it always ends up working itself out, it's just a shame we have to go through this every time but like I say staying where we were was untenable.
Why should they be the ones to move ? It was your group that was not abiding by ground regulations.
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if your attitude concerning the drum is anything to go by.
you can not have one rule for you and different rules for everybody else.
why dont you ask the club for a meeting and agree to see what can be done on the basis that you agree to abide by the rules set by the club?
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I don't think you understand the concept of what Brigada are trying to do and achieve UK Redsox, and its obviously not possible to that in a seated position. The common sense thing to do would be to speak to the club and have this organised so all parties are happy, and doesn't impact or infringe upon anyone else.
I understand what they're trying to do. Its just what they're trying to do is not allowed under the current regulations. Why should they be given special treatment ?
If standing is reintroduced and an area can be set up where Brigada's standing and flag waving does not impact any other supporters (whether standing or seated), then fine**. Until then, they should sit down like everyone else is supposed to.
** my use of the word fine should in know way be construed as condoning the use of the drum, that should be banned at all times.
The bold bit is where your argument falls down I'm afraid...literally a few thousand ppl stand at most games regardless of the current regulations that everyone *should* sit down. The argument works both ways...why should Brigada be forced to sit down and observe the current regulations unless its enforced around the ground.
A simple example of this was last night...I stood in K5 all throughout the game with no issues with the ppl behind me (having spoken to them before kick off) and the stewards didn't bat an eye lid to me or hundreds of other fans standing. If the stewards enforce sitting for both home and away fans around the ground then I would agree that Brigada should sit down also, but they don't.
The only issue I have with any of this is that Brigada can easily avoid these scenarios by simple communication with the club and consideration for others rather than just expecting ppl to either join in or not complain about their view being restricted.
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The "singing section" has, for the 40 years I have attended, been from the centre rear of the Holte downwards - have never seen anything from the club about official "singing sections" - when did they agree that?
Agree that the Club and Brigada should sort this outas it is potentially positive to have vociferous support in as many sections of the ground as possible
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Sounds like you just need to get organised and have an official representative of the group to speak to the club. If agreements are in place then these are translated to the stewards to accommodate the group accordingly on match days. All it takes is a bit of intelligence, communication and common sense.
Believe me we've tried, there are some sections of the club that are very happy to work with us and others that are less so, sadly the latter have the clout when it comes to this particular issue.
Witton Warrior, i'm not a fan of the idea of a "singing section" either, such an idea suggests that you have to be sat in a particular area to sing which is of course nonsense and the whole ground is and should be vocal anyway but this is just what the club termed it. It was publicised on the official site sometime last April i think.
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The club managed to move long term season ticket holders from central sections of The Trinity a few years ago in order to increase corporate seating. So there is precedent for moving existing ST holders when there is a will to.
They could therefore, if they chose, move existing season ticket holders to create a 'singing' section in an area where it would work. They could potentially offer existing ST holders an option to go or stay, & maybe incentivise a move for those who don 't want to be in it. There'll be a bit of a backlash from those who don't want to be in it & don't want to move, but experience does show that people get over this kind of stuff.
The difficult bit is how to word the move so that it isn't obvious that the club are condoning standing - you can't use the euphemism of 'singing section' when you are trying to advise people that they are positioned in a 'standing' zone because it needs to be clear (but not too clear)
Until the rules on standing change, this is pretty tricky to negotiate. I think he club want Brigada to work out, but they cannot be seen to condone standing while it isn't allowed. Brigada are great, but they don't do subtle, & this is always going to make it tough.
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Maybe we could get around the rules by having a designated Really Tall Sitting section? When the Council moan that people are standing we just say "no, they ARE sitting, they're just really tall".
Problem solved.
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It wouldn't be hard for the club to arrange movement for exisiting ST holders. I choose L7 as a) it was the cheapest alternative to the north stand where me and my 3 boys have been for the last 2 years and b) cause I liked what Brigada did last year (minus the drum :-)) & c) stewards in the north are arseholes. I'm sure those in L7 that didn't want to be amongst flags and standing wouldn't mind being relocated to L6, L5....
Happy to support any cause that brings a vibrant atmosphere to VP....I need it after 4 hours on the M6!
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I am sure there is someone at the club who is good enough with words, or a legal representative they can contract who is good enough with legalese, to work this out how to say - 'your seat is now in a standing section, do you want to move? We'll do you a deal!' ......without actually saying that they are creating a standing section!
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I am sure there is someone at the club who is good enough with words, or a legal representative they can contract who is good enough with legalese, to work this out how to say - 'your seat is now in a standing section, do you want to move? We'll do you a deal!' ......without actually saying that they are creating a standing section!
Not as easy as it sounds. AVFC would have a safety certificate agreed with the local authorities, based on being an all seater stadium.
Allow standing in any way, shape or form with any form of legalese and you've breached the said certificate. Which, if things did go wrong mean the club being prosecuted.
Standing will not happen until the Hillsborough inquests conclude and even then, it is probably highly unlikely. It looks like fans are going have to accept that top flight football means seating.
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I don't think it's easy at all, but there are some clubs that have managed it to some extent.
An example is that for the Championship pay off final, Preston North End sold certain blocks of seats as 'family' blocks & 'singing' blocks. This meant that if you are someone who likes to sit, you could apply for a family block, and if you like to stand you could go in a singing block (so our friend Witton End and his various aliases was not completely wrong, other than the fact that he turned up with this idea after we'd sold our tickets) There were also u designated blocks interspersed for those who like to stand a bit, or swear a lot! Everyone knew what it meant and it worked. Cardiff have done something similar at their own ground. The difficulty is the existing season ticket holders.
Personally - I'd do for that bottom corner between the Holte & The Trinity. It's very visible & can be seen from some of the upper as well as the lower. I don't think there are many ST holders already there (in fact it appears to be quite a difficult area to sell). The one issue is the handful of disabled seats at the back, but I don't think their view would actually be obscured because of the drop before the back row of seats, although I could be wrong. It is actually in a position where it doesn't cause knock on standing, which is why Paul Faulkner had it down for the safe standing trial. I think designating that area as a 'singing' section, & Brigada having their tickets there could work.
The club have to be seen to enforce seating, and that is where Brigada need to give just a little. Just sit for a couple of minutes 2-3 times a game when asked, and the club are covered, and Brigada stay in the ground. Sadly - Brigada have a stated purpose of standing for the WHOLE 90 MINUTES, and this is where the club have a problem - they cannot let them.
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Villa do allow standing though,
Man Utd fans stood for the whole match and never sat down once, we do the same in most of our away games so I'm not having a go just saying it is allowed
sitting down in an all seater stadium is not enforced for good or bad, but standing is allowed to happen during the entire match
Legally or not it's still allowed
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I have already said on this thread that Man U's allocation is reduced for persistent standing.
If people sit down when asked, but pop straight back up again when the stewards walk away, then the club can say - we do all we can to get them to sit down, but they stand up again.
If people just completely refuse to sit down, the club have to be seen to be doing something about this. That something is likely to be a 'once a season' example of ' we've even thrown them out'. Then they can say they are trying to enforce seating.
The club lose money on Man U's reduced allocation. They will therefore be trying to get them to sit down, but they are simply refusing to sit down. They may even throw a few out, but we probably aren't seeing that from where we are, but it is simply not true to say it isn't enforced on away fans, because it is. Further than that, the club have been threatened with sections of The Holte being closed for persistent standing, they do have to be SEEN to enforce seating, but this isn't quite the same as us having to sit. There's a fair bit of manoeuvrability in semantics.
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My completely puerile answer to the drum question.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSS1WlC1JrvbHTQ-iVEh9JRDW4TxrtVwbXHE2wPthtLbGwainh6)
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I have already said on this thread that Man U's allocation is reduced for persistent standing.
If people sit down when asked, but pop straight back up again when the stewards walk away, then the club can say - we do all we can to get them to sit down, but they stand up again.
If people just completely refuse to sit down, the club have to be seen to be doing something about this. That something is likely to be a 'once a season' example of ' we've even thrown them out'. Then they can say they are trying to enforce seating.
The club lose money on Man U's reduced allocation. They will therefore be trying to get them to sit down, but they are simply refusing to sit down. They may even throw a few out, but we probably aren't seeing that from where we are, but it is simply not true to say it isn't enforced on away fans, because it is. Further than that, the club have been threatened with sections of The Holte being closed for persistent standing, they do have to be SEEN to enforce seating, but this isn't quite the same as us having to sit. There's a fair bit of manoeuvrability in semantics.
Fair enough, but I've stood (no choice) up in most of the away marches I've been to over the last few years, I can't ever once remember being told or made to sit down
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I think it's the weight of numbers standing, (i.e. everyone) that prevents it being enforced. Stewards wading in to force people to sit only causes more crowd problems, so they turn a blind eye to most of it. Plus, they have enough problems as it is, dealing with aggresive and/or drunken arseholes.
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All clubs have to be SEEN to enforce sitting. Several yesrs ago attending a match at Bristol I behaved like an unconcionable dick and argued with a steward after being asked to sit. His very gentlemanly reply of (channel your inner Bristolian here) "It's my job to ask you to sit, I don't care if you actually sit, I've asked you so I've done my job" has lived long in my memory. So if Brigada stop behaving like dicks and give a bit they might get what. They want.
The drum? Who cares.
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I remember one year at Sunderland (the one where Milan Baros scored) stewards made a real effort to get people to sit down. Trouble was, as soon as we attacked everyone just stood up again.
After a few goes they just gave up.
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i think the problem friday wasnt just standing up
it was actually standing on the seats
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Yeah, the whole "the club are victimising us for standing up" argument falls down when it turns out that only one was actually ejected, and it was for standing on a chair rather than just standing.
Rather than tell their friend to stop being a twat, Brigada seem to have decided to act like martyrs and left en masse.
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Yeah, the whole "the club are victimising us for standing up" argument falls down when it turns out that only one was actually ejected, and it was for standing on a chair rather than just standing.
Rather than tell their friend to stop being a twat, Brigada seem to have decided to act like martyrs and left en masse. spoiled little kids and taken their ball home.
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That palace drum and constant drone is driving me mad watching this game
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Is that area at the back of the stand by the wall?
The one we were in for the cup games? It's behind the railing, so the front of the upper section of the lower holte.
A few years ago you were in the block next to me on the far right side of the Holte, why not return there where there are no people behind you to potentially upset?
I choose my ST so I can stand without causing disruption to anyone else.
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That palace drum and constant drone is driving me mad watching this game
Fucking hell yes. It's horrible, the same constant "whooohoowhoooooerrr" noise and drumming for 90 fucking minutes, FC United of Manchester had exactly the same when I was there yesterday, it truly is hideous. Adds fuck all to the atmosphere, just a bunch of people amusing themselves while everyone else gets pissed off with them. And of course any other part of the crowd trying to start a chant has no chance because they are drowned out by the constant "whooohoowhoooooerrr" from the Ultras!
Still, Ultras hey? everyone loves the Ultras otherwise you are a killjoy. Nice flags mind.
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That palace drum and constant drone is driving me mad watching this game
Fucking hell yes. It's horrible, the same constant "whooohoowhoooooerrr" noise and drumming for 90 fucking minutes, FC United of Manchester had exactly the same when I was there yesterday, it truly is hideous. Adds fuck all to the atmosphere, just a bunch of people amusing themselves while everyone else gets pissed off with them. And of course any other part of the crowd trying to start a chant has no chance because they are drowned out by the constant "whooohoowhoooooerrr" from the Ultras!
Still, Ultras hey? everyone loves the Ultras otherwise you are a killjoy. Nice flags mind.
Calm down, dude. It's only a fucking drum. Ba rupampompom.
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Honey child, I have my doubts
You can't see the the forest for the trees
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Fabulous Mike Nesmith quote, thanks.
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You're all just Living in the Past with all this Drum Theatre.
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May as well do a link as most probably won't remember them. Or have heard of them.
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Not, the, 'living in the past' by jethro Tull that I have from the 1970s.
Lots of fun, though.
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I was sat a few rows behind you guys. Firstly it wasn't just one girl/family that complained, loads of people were going ape - remonstrating with police and stewards. The kids sat near/in front of me (aged 6-8) could not see even if they stood.
Enough's been said about the standing already, and blocking the view of people behind (especially kids) - but the flags were just a piss take, obscuring the view of everybody no matter standing or sitting. The second half was a bit better - in that the flags were flown less, and usually during a break in game (conscious decision?).
Sitting on the front row and wanting to stand is pretty short sighted, I don't see how it can end well
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Why don't these "Ultras" go to the back of the upper Holte where they will find plenty of like-minded fans and not spoil anyone elses view of the game? Oh yes, of course! They want to be seen on telly don't they.
Call me a killjoy/miseryarse if you must but I dont like the Ultras. It smacks of manufactured "atmosphere" and the people who make them up seem to be labouring under the delusion that their "atmosphere" should be above all other considerations including inconveniencing other fans and emperiling the clubs safety certificate status.
Oh and the fucking drum needs to go. We are Aston Villa not Accrington Stanley.
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Sitting on the front row and wanting to stand is pretty short sighted, I don't see how it can end well
Surely the obvious place would be back of Holte lower with no one behind them? this can't be rocket science can it?
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Sitting on the front row and wanting to stand is pretty short sighted, I don't see how it can end well
Surely the obvious place would be back of Holte lower with no one behind them? this can't be rocket science can it?
Where they originally started out.
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I too would suggest getting a section at the back of the Holte, either lower or upper. The location last year seemed fine to me, though I suppose more central would be better.
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That palace drum and constant drone is driving me mad watching this game
Fucking hell yes. It's horrible, the same constant "whooohoowhoooooerrr" noise and drumming for 90 fucking minutes
There is always an atmosphere at Palace these days, and that is down to those Ultras I imagine, but god, yes, I was thinking the same when that match was on.
Get some new fucking songs or something because that "whoooo oooo ooo errr weerrrrr" thing is so fucking irritating.
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I don't think you understand the concept of what Brigada are trying to do and achieve UK Redsox, and its obviously not possible to that in a seated position. The common sense thing to do would be to speak to the club and have this organised so all parties are happy, and doesn't impact or infringe upon anyone else.
I understand what they're trying to do. Its just what they're trying to do is not allowed under the current regulations. Why should they be given special treatment ?
If standing is reintroduced and an area can be set up where Brigada's standing and flag waving does not impact any other supporters (whether standing or seated), then fine**. Until then, they should sit down like everyone else is supposed to.
** my use of the word fine should in know way be construed as condoning the use of the drum, that should be banned at all times.
The bold bit is where your argument falls down I'm afraid...literally a few thousand ppl stand at most games regardless of the current regulations that everyone *should* sit down. The argument works both ways...why should Brigada be forced to sit down and observe the current regulations unless its enforced around the ground.
Not too sure about that.
If I get stopped for doing 80 on the motorway, and point out to the police all the other people doing 80 without getting stopped, does that mean I've somehow been wronged?
Or, what if someone in the Trinity (or any area where there is no standing) decides he'll stand up for the whole match, obscuring the view of those behind, does the "but you're not making that lot sit down" argument hold any water there?
Appreciate the point about checking if the people behind you can see, but there are clearly lots and lots of examples where people have bought expensive tickets for football matches only to find they can't see a thing because the people in front of them are going to stand.
What would have happen if the people behind you had said "actually, we can't see a thing because you're standing", for example?
The problem at the moment is the system in that there is no way to both give people a place they can stand and watch matches AND for other people to know that when they buy their ticket, they'll have a reasonable chance of being able to see the match.
It's a broken system, and there's one obvious way to fix it, but the way the law is now, when it comes down to it, it isn't the people sat down and unable to see the match that are at fault, it is the people standing up.
The presence of 3,000 standing away fans doesn't really change that.
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I don't think you understand the concept of what Brigada are trying to do and achieve UK Redsox, and its obviously not possible to that in a seated position. The common sense thing to do would be to speak to the club and have this organised so all parties are happy, and doesn't impact or infringe upon anyone else.
I understand what they're trying to do. Its just what they're trying to do is not allowed under the current regulations. Why should they be given special treatment ?
If standing is reintroduced and an area can be set up where Brigada's standing and flag waving does not impact any other supporters (whether standing or seated), then fine**. Until then, they should sit down like everyone else is supposed to.
** my use of the word fine should in know way be construed as condoning the use of the drum, that should be banned at all times.
The bold bit is where your argument falls down I'm afraid...literally a few thousand ppl stand at most games regardless of the current regulations that everyone *should* sit down. The argument works both ways...why should Brigada be forced to sit down and observe the current regulations unless its enforced around the ground.
Not too sure about that.
If I get stopped for doing 80 on the motorway, and point out to the police all the other people doing 80 without getting stopped, does that mean I've somehow been wronged?
Or, what if someone in the Trinity (or any area where there is no standing) decides he'll stand up for the whole match, obscuring the view of those behind, does the "but you're not making that lot sit down" argument hold any water there?
Appreciate the point about checking if the people behind you can see, but there are clearly lots and lots of examples where people have bought expensive tickets for football matches only to find they can't see a thing because the people in front of them are going to stand.
What would have happen if the people behind you had said "actually, we can't see a thing because you're standing", for example?
The problem at the moment is the system in that there is no way to both give people a place they can stand and watch matches AND for other people to know that when they buy their ticket, they'll have a reasonable chance of being able to see the match.
It's a broken system, and there's one obvious way to fix it, but the way the law is now, when it comes down to it, it isn't the people sat down and unable to see the match that are at fault, it is the people standing up.
The presence of 3,000 standing away fans doesn't really change that.
In my much younger days (ca. 25 years ago) I got stopped doing 50mph on Boulevard West (in Quinton if you know it) which is a dual carriageway 40 mph zone.
Just before I got stopped I'd had a BMW 5 series go tearing past me doing at 70 mph from the rate at which disappeared.
When I got pulled over as we were going through documents etc, I asked the officer what had happened to the BMW.
"We'd got no chance of catching him, but we've got you speeding so don't go thinking that's a defence"
I wasn't looking to use it as a defence, just a bit pissed off that someone who was being way more reckless than I was got away scot free. Still didn't excuse my own bad driving.
To use an old proverb. Two wrongs don't make a right.
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I don't think you understand the concept of what Brigada are trying to do and achieve UK Redsox, and its obviously not possible to that in a seated position. The common sense thing to do would be to speak to the club and have this organised so all parties are happy, and doesn't impact or infringe upon anyone else.
I understand what they're trying to do. Its just what they're trying to do is not allowed under the current regulations. Why should they be given special treatment ?
If standing is reintroduced and an area can be set up where Brigada's standing and flag waving does not impact any other supporters (whether standing or seated), then fine**. Until then, they should sit down like everyone else is supposed to.
** my use of the word fine should in know way be construed as condoning the use of the drum, that should be banned at all times.
The bold bit is where your argument falls down I'm afraid...literally a few thousand ppl stand at most games regardless of the current regulations that everyone *should* sit down. The argument works both ways...why should Brigada be forced to sit down and observe the current regulations unless its enforced around the ground.
Not too sure about that.
If I get stopped for doing 80 on the motorway, and point out to the police all the other people doing 80 without getting stopped, does that mean I've somehow been wronged?
Or, what if someone in the Trinity (or any area where there is no standing) decides he'll stand up for the whole match, obscuring the view of those behind, does the "but you're not making that lot sit down" argument hold any water there?
Appreciate the point about checking if the people behind you can see, but there are clearly lots and lots of examples where people have bought expensive tickets for football matches only to find they can't see a thing because the people in front of them are going to stand.
What would have happen if the people behind you had said "actually, we can't see a thing because you're standing", for example?
The problem at the moment is the system in that there is no way to both give people a place they can stand and watch matches AND for other people to know that when they buy their ticket, they'll have a reasonable chance of being able to see the match.
It's a broken system, and there's one obvious way to fix it, but the way the law is now, when it comes down to it, it isn't the people sat down and unable to see the match that are at fault, it is the people standing up.
The presence of 3,000 standing away fans doesn't really change that.
Context to the words "should" and "supposed" to are the key words here. May be my words were too generalised, but I'm not saying Brigada are justified or have any kind of defence on the basis of others standing as there is clearly a common sense and courteous solution here that I have clearly pointed out in previous posts. In any case, its clearly not just an issue of standing vs sitting as there are flags involved which are equally or more view restrictive.
With regards to the speeding analogy, thats a bad example as we all know that speeding is against enforceable law regardless of the actions of others, however if someone is asked to sit because they are restricting the view of others by a steward or another fan then the right (or courteous) thing to do is oblige (caveat: unless your view is then subsequently restricted)...you may as well have said I shot someone because someone else did...it doesn't make it right, but its equally not relative to someone standing in a football ground which isn't even an illegal offence:
http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/safe-standing/the-legalities-of-standing/
Like I said previously, I don't want this to descend into yet another standing vs sitting debate, but if the chap at the game the other night had asked me to sit down then I would have done so without any fuss and would have subsequently asked the bloke in front of me to sit. Common sense, communication and courtesy.
The only common sense solution to this is that Brigada re-open communications with the club and arrange relocation to a more appropriate area of the ground. If they can't manage that then they can rightly expect to be asked to leave the ground more often than not.
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Context to the words "should" and "supposed" to are the key words here. May be my words were too generalised, but I'm not saying Brigada are justified or have any kind of defence on the basis of others standing as there is clearly a common sense and courteous solution here that I have clearly pointed out in previous posts. In any case, its clearly not just an issue of standing vs sitting as there are flags involved which are equally or more view restrictive.
With regards to the speeding analogy, thats a bad example as we all know that speeding is against enforceable law regardless of the actions of others, however if someone is asked to sit because they are restricting the view of others by a steward or another fan then the right (or courteous) thing to do is oblige (caveat: unless your view is then subsequently restricted)...you may as well have said I shot someone because someone else did...it doesn't make it right, but its equally not relative to someone standing in a football ground which isn't even an illegal offence:
http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/safe-standing/the-legalities-of-standing/
Like I said previously, I don't want this to descend into yet another standing vs sitting debate, but if the chap at the game the other night had asked me to sit down then I would have done so without any fuss and would have subsequently asked the bloke in front of me to sit. Common sense, communication and courtesy.
The only common sense solution to this is that Brigada re-open communications with the club and arrange relocation to a more appropriate area of the ground. If they can't manage that then they can rightly expect to be asked to leave the ground more often than not.
It doesn't matter that it is not an illegal offence, the tickets are sold on the basis that the buyers sit down - or the club will lose its license. The general point is that "they are doing it too, why haven't you stopped them?" is not really an argument as to why someone should or should not sit down when asked to.
Your point re sitting down when asked is fine, and I agree entirely, but the problems start when people refuse to do that. Your caveat is important - "unless that means their view is restricted".
So, someone sat behind the last row of Brigada standers taps the person in front "sorry, I can't see, can you sit down?" That person happens to be polite about it, says "yes". He then asks the person in front of him to do the same. He says "Not my problem, mate".
Then what happens? That's where it gets tricky.
The point I was trying to get across (but probably failing) is that under the terms and conditions under which those tickets are sold, which reflect the licensing conditions to the ground, the people in the wrong are those standing.
They're not lent any more moral authority in doing so just because people elsewhere are standing and getting away with it - which was the point you made that I originally disagreed with.
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When all is said and done...I think we both pretty much agree with each other on the subject of standing vs sitting. The issue here is the Brigada lads being courteous to other fans that have paid good money to attend the games without having their view restricted by the standing and/or flags, and the need for Brigada to communicate with the club so they can be suitably accommodated without infringing on the rights of other supporters.
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Wiser heads than me know the exact detail on this matter, but isn't there some exemption in the current regulations for standing during moments of excitement in a game?
Which, of course, is entirely subjective.
Some might get excited by a Ciaran Clark fluttering his eye lids, others by Charles N'Zog running the ball out of play.
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You'll find it here: http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/safe-standing/the-legalities-of-standing/
In practice, standing to go to the toilet or snack bar and standing at ‘moments of excitement’ is permitted. The boundary between ‘moments of excitement’ and ‘persistent’ is rather grey and open to very wide interpretation. - See more at: http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/safe-standing/the-legalities-of-standing/#sthash.P0DkTNmn.dpuf
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That, for me, is why any talk of enforcement or comparisons with road traffic offences falls down completely.
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This incident isn't about 'just' standing though. One of them stood on a seat, refused to get down when asked, so was removed from the ground. The rest chose to leave with them. None of Brigada were removed for flags, 'just' standing or anything else.
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That, for me, is why any talk of enforcement or comparisons with road traffic offences falls down completely.
Why rule out any talk of enforcement? Just because something isn't an offence doesn't mean it can't be enforced.
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my little lad (7) stands on his chair at every game he goes to a match,
he has to when Villa attack or get a corner or something everyone stands up, he stands on his chair, he's pretty adept at it now, I actually think he quite likes doing it
I think you know what your getting especially in away games, so he just stands on his chair
he's not got thrown out yet
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I also have to have my Grandson Freddy (aged 7) stand on a chair at times so he can see what is going on due to the inconsiderate, selfish people standing in front of him.
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my little lad (7) stands on his chair at every game he goes to a match,
he has to when Villa attack or get a corner or something everyone stands up, he stands on his chair, he's pretty adept at it now, I actually think he quite likes doing it
I think you know what your getting especially in away games, so he just stands on his chair
he's not got thrown out yet
There's a fairly obvious difference between a small child standing on a seat to be able to see and an adult standing on a seat.
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Especially when said small child only has to stand on the seat because selfish bastards are standing in front of him.
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Especially when said small child only has to stand on the seat because selfish bastards are standing in front of him.
Exactly.
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my little lad (7) stands on his chair at every game he goes to a match,
he has to when Villa attack or get a corner or something everyone stands up, he stands on his chair, he's pretty adept at it now, I actually think he quite likes doing it
I think you know what your getting especially in away games, so he just stands on his chair
he's not got thrown out yet
There's a fairly obvious difference between a small child standing on a seat to be able to see and an adult standing on a seat.
your quite right, I wasn't making serious a direct comparison, the 'he hasn't been thrown out yet' was just a little joke
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They'll be watching him next home match now!
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yeah
well it will be interesting to see what happens against sunderland
i presume the brigada are all season ticket holders and will be back in the same spot , standing and singing
just like we did when we was younger at the back of the old holte
i bet the club have given the people who complained incentives to move to other areas
to be replaced by more people who want to sit during the match apart from when villa are on the attack
and i expect the same situation to happen as against man u
only a lot sooner after kick off
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standing and singing just like we did when we was younger at the back of the old holte
Some of us still do! ;-)
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standing and singing just like we did when we was younger at the back of the old holte
Some of us still do! ;-)
its been demolished
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standing and singing just like we did when we was younger at the back of the old holte
Some of us still do! ;-)
its been demolished
Pedant! ;-)
I still stand and sing on the site of the old Holte End but in the new Holte End built on it...
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The group put a statement out on this a couple of days ago, it clears up some of the queries in this thread
http://brigada1874ultras.proboards.com/thread/1657/group-statement-treatment-villa-man (http://brigada1874ultras.proboards.com/thread/1657/group-statement-treatment-villa-man)
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That's it then, no going back now
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The group put a statement out on this a couple of days ago, it clears up some of the queries in this thread
http://brigada1874ultras.proboards.com/thread/1657/group-statement-treatment-villa-man (http://brigada1874ultras.proboards.com/thread/1657/group-statement-treatment-villa-man)
Would you care to copy and paste the statement into this thread?
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Yeah a login in is required for some parts of the forum, here you go;
Statement from Brigada 1874 about events at Villa vs Man Utd Friday 14/08/2015.
Brigada 1874 were targeted by police and stewards for the above match. Many people witnessed the police filming us from the moment we entered into the ground, and whilst we recognise this is their prerogative, from the point of view of the group this can only be seen as an act that suggests we need to be viewed with suspicion.
Almost from kick off the stewards were telling us to sit down and generally harassing us. They then told us they were unaware we had moved from our previous position in L8, which only suggests extremely poor communication between different departments at the club. One of the main reasons we moved from L8 was because of persistent seat blocking by the clubs ticketing department in that area, stifling the growth of the group. We also felt a more central position nearer to the pitch would help us to grow as a group, and also enable us to influence the lower Holte as a whole into generating a greater atmosphere.
As a group who have entered into discussions with the club on numerous occasions, in order to ensure that any disturbance to other fans that may not enjoy the atmosphere we try and create so much is kept to a minimum, we feel let down by the club on this occasion. The club have publicly stated blocks L7 and L8 were designated as ‘singing sections’. This surely means that anyone who has tickets in these sections should expect fans in these areas to be doing exactly that. Singing, creating an atmosphere, standing, supporting the team as loudly and colourfully as possible. This is precisely why Brigada 1874 chose to buy tickets in this area, and to be targeted by stewards and police for doing precisely what the area we were in was advertised for is, at best, poor communication between the club and the stewards it employs.
Our decision to leave the ground (and it was a decision made by the group, we were not ejected) was made because the stewards and police targeted one of our members and asked to ‘have a word’, when questioned whether this was a word or whether this really meant they were being ejected, the steward replied that it was indeed just to talk, but the police officer replied that they were being ejected. It must be said this seems to be underhanded tactics on behalf of the steward. As a group we will not let members be singled out in this way so we made a decision to leave at this point (on approximately 60 minutes) and discussions continued in the concourse.
Brigada 1874 do not want to, and never have gone out to cause upset or issues for other fans, and we feel that since our inception in 2010 we have made great strides in our relationships with both other fans and the club itself. Nevertheless, if the club and other fans truly want the atmosphere at Villa Park to be as loud and colourful as Brigada 1874 are attempting to create, then targeting us for doing just that will only have the opposite effect. As an Ultras group we need to be in an area where other fans not only tolerate us, but get involved with us to help create an atmosphere all Villa fans can be proud of, and that will cause other teams and fans to take notice when they come to visit Villa Park.
UTV, Brigada 1874
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Is it true your friend was persistently standing on his seat despite being told to get down several times?
If so, WTF do you expect?
I'm not sure how kicking someone out for being a twat means the club has let you down.
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i dont believe for one second that the stewards were unaware of the move from from L8 to L7
they would have been briefed by the club before the match
and told what stance to take
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Not sure about the lad stood on the seat as I wasn't next to him. There was no need for him to be stood on the seat though and he won't be doing it again but the police and steward involvement preceded this happening.
Yeah Conman, I think they knew about it too, but speaking to them they spoke as if they were surprised by us being where we were.
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That's a clumsily worded statement if you don't mind me saying! The stewards and police that were 'hassling' them, could it have anything to do with the fact they were standing by any chance?
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Not sure about the lad stood on the seat as I wasn't next to him. There was no need for him to be stood on the seat though and he won't be doing it again but the police and steward involvement preceded this happening.
But was he the one kicked out that was the cause of your walk out? If so, it's all a bit silly really.
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As a group who have entered into discussions with the club on numerous occasions, in order to ensure that any disturbance to other fans that may not enjoy the atmosphere we try and create so much is kept to a minimum, we feel let down by the club on this occasion. The club have publicly stated blocks L7 and L8 were designated as ‘singing sections’. This surely means that anyone who has tickets in these sections should expect fans in these areas to be doing exactly that. Singing, creating an atmosphere, standing, supporting the team as loudly and colourfully as possible. This is precisely why Brigada 1874 chose to buy tickets in this area, and to be targeted by stewards and police for doing precisely what the area we were in was advertised for is, at best, poor communication between the club and the stewards it employs.
Not sure which bit of "You are not allowed to stand in a Premier League ground" you don't understand but I'll tell you, it's the bit that says "You are not allowed to stand"!
If you have now moved to an area of the stand which affects even more fans who aren't part of your group with persistent standing then expect more problems this season. Whether I agree with the rule, or with your aims matters not, those are the rules and you are breaking them, persistently.
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Yeah, the whole "the club are victimising us for standing up" argument falls down when it turns out that only one was actually ejected, and it was for standing on a chair rather than just standing.
Rather than tell their friend to stop being a twat, Brigada seem to have decided to act like martyrs and left en masse.
Yes. I'm broadly in favour of Brigada, but the way they've carried on over this you'd think they were campaigning for votes for women or free education or something.
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With my usual caveat that like Percy I'm broadly in favour, and the Brigada members I've met all seem to be fine, upstanding individuals, they do seem to have difficulty with the concept that for every Brigada member there are around 800 in the crowd who aren't.
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The only thing Brigada seem to be doing very successfully is pissing off everyone who isn't Brigada. The club, the stewards, the old bill, other fans........
A group walk out, labelling themselves as Ultras, persistent standing, the f*cking drum, flags waving infront of others, crap statements/PR have done nothing to improve the impression others have. Maybe if Brigada lost the "Love us or Lump us" attitude all parties might be more receptive.
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the Brigada members I've met all seem to be fine, upstanding individuals
That can't be denied.
And yes, they are generally good eggs.
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I missed the vote option, but I would go with ditch the thing. Bring back the bell that was rung from the trinity road in the 70's / 80's.
As for the Brigadas and standing - if they want to stand at a match, maybe they should try non-league no-one has a problem with it there. Added to which you can often see a good game of football at a fraction of the cost of the greed league.
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Solihull Moors - Top of the National League North 8)
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Maybe it is just about better dialogue with the club.
Palace's ultras were in the bottom left behind the goal (as you look from the pitch) and were standing or jumping up and down for most of the game. The core seemed to be 200 strong, no more, so an awful lot of people would have been behind the standing / jumping fans. They were still going strong at the end, partly thanks to our dopey gift of a goal, so presumably their stewards and fans in that section are accepting of them.
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Moving without consulting the club is asking for trouble.
Referring to standing as being part of the singing area is wrong as standing is breaking the law.
Trying to engage people and singing songs is great.
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Moving without consulting the club is asking for trouble.
Referring to standing as being part of the singing area is wrong as standing is breaking the law.
Trying to engage people and singing songs is great.
The reason we moved without consulting the club is because we have absolutely no trust in the club facilitating such a move. When we've discussed moving in the past they've simply told us to wait and see if more seats would become available in L8 and low and behold we waited until no area was available for us to move into to then find that the club continued to block 20-30 seats from sale in L8. So as you can imagine we were rather wary of going to the club and mentioning any plans of moving.
It isn't illegal to stand in the football ground and standing is not a criminal offence, it's within the remit of the club to allow standing as has been shown at Palace, Man City, Middlesborough, Leicester and Cardiff to name but a few clubs who have actually made the effort to engage with fan initiatives at thier clubs to great effect.
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I'd suggest that the reason they are "blocking seats" is because other fans have tickets there?
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I'd suggest that the reason they are "blocking seats" is because other fans have tickets there?
The seats were blocked from sale because the club stated that people had come into the area without tickets. The seats were not owned by anyone.
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I'd suggest that the reason they are "blocking seats" is because other fans have tickets there?
The seats were blocked from sale because the club stated that people had come into the area without tickets. The seats were not owned by anyone.
Are you saying that the seats were blocked/empty so those that joined you from other areas of the ground could sit in 'your' area?
If so, isnt that helpful to you?
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It isn't illegal to stand in the football ground and standing is not a criminal offence, it's within the remit of the club to allow standing as has been shown at Palace, Man City, Middlesborough, Leicester and Cardiff to name but a few clubs who have actually made the effort to engage with fan initiatives at thier clubs to great effect.
Correct me if I am wrong, but it looks to me like there might be a difference in what you mean by "allow" and what the club mean.
You're right, the club could "allow" standing if by that you mean turning a blind eye to it. It is pretty clear that this already goes on at most grounds, to the point that it is a given these days that away fans, anywhere, will stand.
There's some doubt there about whether that is mostly about the club turning a blind eye or just facing fact that if 3000 people refuse to sit down, you really can't do a great deal to make them all sit.
However, even then, there is a big murky area between the above version of "allow" and the interpretation of the word which would be involved if the club were to say "you can stand here".
That is surely due to the fact that while the club could theoretically declare the entire Holte End a "standing" area if they want, Birmingham City council as the licensing authority would take a different view.
Then there is the likelihood of this falling foul of other agreements made by clubs as part of their membership of the Premier League.
It's a shitty system which is made to look fucking stupid every single week by anyone who so much as spends ten minutes watching Match of the Day, it is a system which has brought about a "worst of both worlds" scenario where pretty much everyone loses out in some way, but they are still the rules, and ultimately in any conflict along these lines it is the standers who are "in the wrong".
I think that gets lost in the discussion quite frequently and actually loses groups like yourselves the support of a lot of people who are actually for the reintroduction of standing.
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I'd suggest that the reason they are "blocking seats" is because other fans have tickets there?
The seats were blocked from sale because the club stated that people had come into the area without tickets. The seats were not owned by anyone.
Are you saying that the seats were blocked/empty so those that joined you from other areas of the ground could sit in 'your' area?
If so, isnt that helpful to you?
The seats were blocked on the pretence that there were people coming into the area without tickets. I'm not in a position to confirm whether this was true or not but it's feasible that some people did so. The club had stewards check peoples tickets on entry to L8 on a number of occassions and i'd imagine that this deterred people from coming into the area without a ticket. So with people wanting to join us unable to buy a ticket in the area and the possibility that they wouldn't be able to sit there should they decide to move over from another area this certainly didn't help us in any way.
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If people have bought season tickets in or behind 'your area' I should imagine they going to be just a little pissed off with your actions.
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If people have bought season tickets in or behind 'your area' I should imagine they going to be just a little pissed off with your actions.
Many people bought tickets in the area on the basis that we were moving there and we did everything we could do to publicise the fact that we were moving there.
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If people have bought season tickets in or behind 'your area' I should imagine they going to be just a little pissed off with your actions.
Many people bought tickets in the area on the basis that we were moving there and we did everything we could do to publicise the fact that we were moving there.
Publicised how?
A tiny fraction of the match-going supporters read online forums, and I'd wager that a large proportion of those that do are going to read a small amount of stuff on there that interests them (transfer links, friendly reports etc.) rather than posts about how a supporters group that they don't plan on joining is moving where they sit.
I read most stuff on here and honestly don't remember anything about it.
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I'd consider myself to be fairly active in finding out information relating to all things Villa and I can say that I have a) never heard or seen any publicity stating that Brigada were moving to a different area and b) never heard or seen any official information from the club stating the location of singing areas.
If someone like myself doesn't have knowledge of either of these, then its fair to say that your publicity has failed and that the majority of fans attending games would be none the wiser either. I'm not trying to have a dig at you guys, but if you think that by posting something on social media such as Facebook or a forum is sufficient publicity and use it to help justify your decisions and actions then you're very much mistaken.
Also its very disappointing to hear that you have all but given up on consulting with the club via official channels, and by moving without consulting them doesn't really help matters. If you had open lines of communication then you would also know the answers to questions and have more information about "block seat gate" rather than jumping to conclusions...I genuinely find it hard to believe that the club would prevent a whole section of tickets from going on sale just to accommodate Brigada or stop people from buying tickets to sit there.
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I'd suggest that the reason they are "blocking seats" is because other fans have tickets there?
The seats were blocked from sale because the club stated that people had come into the area without tickets. The seats were not owned by anyone.
Are you saying that the seats were blocked/empty so those that joined you from other areas of the ground could sit in 'your' area?
If so, isnt that helpful to you?
The seats were blocked on the pretence that there were people coming into the area without tickets. I'm not in a position to confirm whether this was true or not but it's feasible that some people did so. The club had stewards check peoples tickets on entry to L8 on a number of occassions and i'd imagine that this deterred people from coming into the area without a ticket. So with people wanting to join us unable to buy a ticket in the area and the possibility that they wouldn't be able to sit there should they decide to move over from another area this certainly didn't help us in any way.
But if the blocked seats are empty, then people with tickets in other areas can come over and join you in the empty seats. Which helps you, unless I'm missing something?
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If people have bought season tickets in or behind 'your area' I should imagine they going to be just a little pissed off with your actions.
Many people bought tickets in the area on the basis that we were moving there and we did everything we could do to publicise the fact that we were moving there.
yes well i am pretty sure i read it on this forum about the move from L8 to L7
and i am sure people at the club did too
obviously the club have been monitoring this group
and they would probably have noticed the pattern of season ticket holders in L8 moving seats to L7
anyway
i am in L7 on saturday with my son
and i like sitting down
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I'd consider myself to be fairly active in finding out information relating to all things Villa and I can say that I have a) never heard or seen any publicity stating that Brigada were moving to a different area and b) never heard or seen any official information from the club stating the location of singing areas.
If someone like myself doesn't have knowledge of either of these, then its fair to say that your publicity has failed and that the majority of fans attending games would be none the wiser either. I'm not trying to have a dig at you guys, but if you think that by posting something on social media such as Facebook or a forum is sufficient publicity and use it to help justify your decisions and actions then you're very much mistaken.
Also its very disappointing to hear that you have all but given up on consulting with the club via official channels, and by moving without consulting them doesn't really help matters. If you had open lines of communication then you would also know the answers to questions and have more information about "block seat gate" rather than jumping to conclusions...I genuinely find it hard to believe that the club would prevent a whole section of tickets from going on sale just to accommodate Brigada or stop people from buying tickets to sit there.
I can assure you that i am not jumping to conclusions with regards the issue of seat blocking, my understanding of the situation is one that's been arrived at following discussions with the club on the subject so it's from the horses mouth so to speak.
I agree that the internet is not a great means of publicising something like this, even less so on forums that are read by such a small number of people, the people who read and post of football forums are after all a tiny percentage of those who go to games. It's also a lot easier to publicise something like this to people who are already interested in the group, reaching those that aren't interested in obviously a lot harder.
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I'd suggest that the reason they are "blocking seats" is because other fans have tickets there?
The seats were blocked from sale because the club stated that people had come into the area without tickets. The seats were not owned by anyone.
Are you saying that the seats were blocked/empty so those that joined you from other areas of the ground could sit in 'your' area?
If so, isnt that helpful to you?
The seats were blocked on the pretence that there were people coming into the area without tickets. I'm not in a position to confirm whether this was true or not but it's feasible that some people did so. The club had stewards check peoples tickets on entry to L8 on a number of occassions and i'd imagine that this deterred people from coming into the area without a ticket. So with people wanting to join us unable to buy a ticket in the area and the possibility that they wouldn't be able to sit there should they decide to move over from another area this certainly didn't help us in any way.
But if the blocked seats are empty, then people with tickets in other areas can come over and join you in the empty seats. Which helps you, unless I'm missing something?
Not if stewards decide to check the tickets of those in the area, being in a seat that isn't your own is an ejectable offence and I think that puts people off. Also there's no guarantee of a spot being available so some people won't bother trecking over to see on the off chance. A simpler way of "helping" would've just been to make the tickets available, as they did for I think the Swansea game last season when they piloted the official "singing section".
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If people have bought season tickets in or behind 'your area' I should imagine they going to be just a little pissed off with your actions.
Many people bought tickets in the area on the basis that we were moving there and we did everything we could do to publicise the fact that we were moving there.
Though you didn't tell the club because you didn't want to be found out.
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Why don't everyone around brigada get those vu vu zaylas and blast those for 90 minutes see who comes out on top
Simples
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I like a lot of what Brigada are trying to do. I like the banners and the fact that they are trying to increase the volume and atmosphere in the ground.
That being said, I think that it is startlingly arrogant of the group to disregard the wishes of fans around them who have paid the amount of money to watch the game. Even if lots of people have moved to be near the group - there are those, as people have pointed out, with kids and older people who have sat there for a while who would prefer to sit. I frequent this and other forums regularly and haven't seen it published that there is a move and don't think that this makes too much difference anyway.
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It can certainly come across as "as long we're happy and doing what we want, fuck everyone else around us, and the club". I'm sure it's not intended but it comes across dangerously close to that. Which isn't going to help them with their dealings with the club or the fans around them.
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It can certainly come across as "as long we're happy and doing what we want, fuck everyone else around us, and the club". I'm sure it's not intended but it comes across dangerously close to that. Which isn't going to help them with their dealings with the club or the fans around them.
You only have to have a look at the original comments concerning the DRUM and you certainly get that impression.
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If people have bought season tickets in or behind 'your area' I should imagine they going to be just a little pissed off with your actions.
Many people bought tickets in the area on the basis that we were moving there and we did everything we could do to publicise the fact that we were moving there.
We didn't tell the club because they've got a history of undermining what we do as a group.
Class of 82, a son of someone who stood with us in L8 regularly brought a vuvuzela with him, it was annoying but you just sang over it and ignored it.
Though you didn't tell the club because you didn't want to be found out.
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The club have been threatened by the council with the possibility of closing parts of the stadium if they allow persistent standing.
Your group stands all game then moans about how unfair it is when asked to sit (or when one of your group acts a dickhead and stands on the seat).
Can you possibly imagine why the club might be wary of dealing with you?
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If people have bought season tickets in or behind 'your area' I should imagine they going to be just a little pissed off with your actions.
Many people bought tickets in the area on the basis that we were moving there and we did everything we could do to publicise the fact that we were moving there.
How did you 'publicise' this? Full page ads in the programme and Birmingham Mail? I should think it's only a tiny percentage of match going supporters who religiously read any or all the independent fan sites.
Edit. That will teach me to scroll down, just seen Dave's post.
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We didn't tell the club because they've got a history of undermining what we do as a group.
What sort of thing for example?
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We didn't tell the club because they've got a history of undermining what we do as a group.
What sort of thing for example?
Here's a few off the top of my head; banning the "One Stan Petrov" surfer. Chucking us out for standing at the Rotherham Cup game despite no ones view being blocked. Attempting to wrestle the "Your granddad didn't play for fascists, he shot them" banner from us against Sunderland. Blocking tickets in L8 so that others could not buy tickets there. Implying these seats may become available for others to purchase before the start of the 2014/15 season only for the seats to remain blocked.
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We didn't tell the club because they've got a history of undermining what we do as a group.
What sort of thing for example?
Here's a few off the top of my head; banning the "One Stan Petrov" surfer. Chucking us out for standing at the Rotherham Cup game despite no ones view being blocked. Attempting to wrestle the "Your granddad didn't play for fascists, he shot them" banner from us against Sunderland. Blocking tickets in L8 so that others could not buy tickets there. Implying these seats may become available for others to purchase before the start of the 2014/15 season only for the seats to remain blocked.
thats terrible ,,,,,,why dont the club co-operate,,,,they wanted L7 to be a singing section
they knew brigada were moving there ,,,,,,,they knew brigada like to stand and sing for 90 minutes
to get behind the team and create a good atmosphere , yet now they treat them like the enemy within
just like other villa fans do
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I must admit i'm not really for picking seats where standing will block others views - back of Hotle lower seems obvious choice to me.
BUT, I cannot understand why the club can't be a bit more supportive (obviously without formally condoning standing). It would seem if this enthusiasm could be harnessed rather than seen as something to suppress, it would be for the benefit of all. I don't understand why they wont have a more open dialogue with the group - it shouldn't be difficult to get an understanding here.
But if nobheads stand on seats and won't move when asked to get down, well I'm all for kicking them out. And flouncing off in protest at this didn't do you any credit.
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I must admit i'm not really for picking seats where standing will block others views - back of Hotle lower seems obvious choice to me.
BUT, I cannot understand why the club can't be a bit more supportive (obviously without formally condoning standing). It would seem if this enthusiasm could be harnessed rather than seen as something to suppress, it would be for the benefit of all. I don't understand why they wont have a more open dialogue with the group - it shouldn't be difficult to get an understanding here.
But if nobheads stand on seats and won't move when asked to get down, well I'm all for kicking them out. And flouncing off in protest at this didn't do you any credit.
I agree he shouldn't have been stood on his seat and I don't think you'd find anyone in the group saying he should've been.
There are loads of examples of clubs that are taking a really forward thinking approach to "singing sections" whereby a blind eye is turned to persistent standing. The most notable i've seen this season has been at Man City where they've actually moved the away support slightly to create an area for their group. Boro gave Red Faction their own area a few years back as did Palace, more recently Cardiff City have taken a very hands off approach to persistent standing. So it can be done and the results that i've seen so far has been really impressive.
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I must admit i'm not really for picking seats where standing will block others views - back of Hotle lower seems obvious choice to me.
BUT, I cannot understand why the club can't be a bit more supportive (obviously without formally condoning standing). It would seem if this enthusiasm could be harnessed rather than seen as something to suppress, it would be for the benefit of all. I don't understand why they wont have a more open dialogue with the group - it shouldn't be difficult to get an understanding here.
But if nobheads stand on seats and won't move when asked to get down, well I'm all for kicking them out. And flouncing off in protest at this didn't do you any credit.
I agree he shouldn't have been stood on his seat and I don't think you'd find anyone in the group saying he should've been.
There are loads of examples of clubs that are taking a really forward thinking approach to "singing sections" whereby a blind eye is turned to persistent standing. The most notable i've seen this season has been at Man City where they've actually moved the away support slightly to create an area for their group. Boro gave Red Faction their own area a few years back as did Palace, more recently Cardiff City have taken a very hands off approach to persistent standing. So it can be done and the results that i've seen so far has been really impressive.
I dont know how many times on this thread it's been said but I will add my voice: Your argument of "it ay fair, they're allowed to do it so we should be allowed to!" just doesn't wash. Aston Villa are not responsible for what happens at other grounds and the numbers of police and stewards required to throw out an entire end of away fans for standing is not viable. The only solution would be to refuse to sell tickets to away fans who persistently stand has it's own set of problems not least of which being the commercial hit. I find it ridiculous that you persistently break the ground rules and then scream that the club is victimizing you; as far as I can see the club are being over-lenient with you by allowing you to stand throughout the matches which you did all last season.
I personally have no problem with you standing, jumping up & down, waving flags. (I can even barely tolerate the pissing drum) Right up until the point where your antics start to impact on my enjoyment of the game. If I have bought a ticket in good faith for a seat and it happens to be behind your lot and you impede my view and enjoyment of the game then I am going to have a very BIG problem with you. as a group or as an individual. This simple concept is what you are failing to grasp. Instead you are again trying to blame the club with little more than circumstantial evidence. I do believe that there are enough stewards & police at a game to forcibly eject your little band should the club decide to do so and ban you from the ground. The fact that they dont do that should be taken as a measure of their tolerance of you but you can bet your life that if the club receive enough complaints from paying fans who cant see the game because of your antics they will do this.
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I must admit i'm not really for picking seats where standing will block others views - back of Hotle lower seems obvious choice to me.
BUT, I cannot understand why the club can't be a bit more supportive (obviously without formally condoning standing). It would seem if this enthusiasm could be harnessed rather than seen as something to suppress, it would be for the benefit of all. I don't understand why they wont have a more open dialogue with the group - it shouldn't be difficult to get an understanding here.
But if nobheads stand on seats and won't move when asked to get down, well I'm all for kicking them out. And flouncing off in protest at this didn't do you any credit.
I agree he shouldn't have been stood on his seat and I don't think you'd find anyone in the group saying he should've been.
There are loads of examples of clubs that are taking a really forward thinking approach to "singing sections" whereby a blind eye is turned to persistent standing. The most notable i've seen this season has been at Man City where they've actually moved the away support slightly to create an area for their group. Boro gave Red Faction their own area a few years back as did Palace, more recently Cardiff City have taken a very hands off approach to persistent standing. So it can be done and the results that i've seen so far has been really impressive.
Any chance of learning how these groups managed their interaction with their respective clubs to get to the point where they are allowed to operate as they do?
I mentioned above, or on the match thread, that the Holmesdale boys at Palace were standing at the bottom left of the stand so must have had seated fans behind them - or had fans who were happy to stand behind them too.
Villa Park is rarely sold out these days so surely the club can find 100-200 seats - at the back of either Upper or Lower Holte - where you can generate atmosphere without bothering people behind you.
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Birmingham City Council are more interventionist on this than most other councils. that's why the club can't be as hands off as in many other places. BCC have threatened to close off sections of The Holte, If Brigada had a full on standing section, especially if it became known that the club had somehow sanctioned it, that would be the bit they'd close down.
Where Brigada and the club clash is that on an unofficial level, the club need them to sit down 2-3 times in a game when asked. It doesn't matter if they pop straight back up again - the club have been seen not to condone standing. This doesn't come from the club directly, this comes from fans groups who campaign on standing and look for loopholes and compromises.
However, Brigada have a stated vow to stand throughout - this is what the club cannot work with. They are asked to sit down, they refuse, so the club end up having to throw someone out in order to show they don't condone standing, and then the whole lot walk out & relations continue on a downward spiral.
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Birmingham City Council are more interventionist on this than most other councils. that's why the club can't be as hands off as in many other places. BCC have threatened to close off sections of The Holte, If Brigada had a full on standing section, especially if it became known that the club had somehow sanctioned it, that would be the bit they'd close down.
Where Brigada and the club clash is that on an unofficial level, the club need them to sit down 2-3 times in a game when asked. It doesn't matter if they pop straight back up again - the club have been seen not to condone standing. This doesn't come from the club directly, this comes from fans groups who campaign on standing and look for loopholes and compromises.
However, Brigada have a stated vow to stand throughout - this is what the club cannot work with. They are asked to sit down, they refuse, so the club end up having to throw someone out in order to show they don't condone standing, and then the whole lot walk out & relations continue on a downward spiral.
There's no place for such sense on here.
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,,,,,, ,,,,,, ,,,,,,,
,
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Commaman
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Comma Chameleon,,,,
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Birmingham City Council are more interventionist on this than most other councils. that's why the club can't be as hands off as in many other places. BCC have threatened to close off sections of The Holte, If Brigada had a full on standing section, especially if it became known that the club had somehow sanctioned it, that would be the bit they'd close down.
Where Brigada and the club clash is that on an unofficial level, the club need them to sit down 2-3 times in a game when asked. It doesn't matter if they pop straight back up again - the club have been seen not to condone standing. This doesn't come from the club directly, this comes from fans groups who campaign on standing and look for loopholes and compromises.
However, Brigada have a stated vow to stand throughout - this is what the club cannot work with. They are asked to sit down, they refuse, so the club end up having to throw someone out in order to show they don't condone standing, and then the whole lot walk out & relations continue on a downward spiral.
Thats an interesting post. It would seem this impasse is pretty easily remedied then isn't it?
Have the flag lads been in touch with any of the existing Villa supporters groups such as AVST etc? Surely someone can act as a mediator in this.
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Organised fun. I can't stand it.
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Organised fun. I can't stand it.
You must be a blast at parties, weddings, etc!
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It would seem this impasse is pretty easily remedied then isn't it?
“Well, it is so often the way, sir, too late one thinks of what one should have said. Sir Thomas More, for instance — burned alive for refusing to recant his Catholicism — must have been kicking himself, as the flames licked higher, that it never occurred to him to say, ‘I recant my Catholicism.'”
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It's my own wedding in a few weeks, I'll tell you then.
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Organised fun. I can't stand it.
You must be a blast at parties, weddings, etc!
I'm with Leighton. Forced fun I call it - people insisting on fancy dress is the worst.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNSRS0zWIAA50du.jpg)
L7 last night
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L7 23 years ago
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/MrClivver/vid%20pics/L7Word02.jpg)
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Organised fun. I can't stand it.
You must be a blast at parties, weddings, etc!
I'm with Leighton. Forced fun I call it - people insisting on fancy dress is the worst.
I'm sat in the corner with Percy and Leighton snarling at anybody attempting to get me to participate in such nonsense. First person to say cheer up gets their head kicked in.
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You lot must be ace when the Birdie Song is played.
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You lot must be ace when the Birdie Song is played.
You should see us when the Black Lace album is put on.
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Percy- did you mention fancy dress?
(http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p496/L8ton75/a1f313c3-3d1c-4fbb-9dfd-cd602a6710af.jpg) (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/L8ton75/media/a1f313c3-3d1c-4fbb-9dfd-cd602a6710af.jpg.html)
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Somebody behind me once had a go at me because I wasn't, as the song goes, "stand(ing) up if you love Villa".
Idiot.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNSRS0zWIAA50du.jpg)
L7 last night
I know.
Much better without the drum wasn't it?
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That yellow wall at Dortmund with all that flag waving, wonder if anyone ever sees anything in that end
Think it's standing but can convert to sitting for European games, might be wrong though
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That yellow wall at Dortmund with all that flag waving, wonder if anyone ever sees anything in that end
Think it's standing but can convert to sitting for European games, might be wrong though
Is correct, as are a number of German stadia. It's the model for the safe standing we were pushing for under Faulkner (and I believe Celtic have approval for a trial now?)
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L7 23 years ago
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/MrClivver/vid%20pics/L7Word02.jpg)
Very good, or is it 'arf'?
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Percy- did you mention fancy dress?
(http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p496/L8ton75/a1f313c3-3d1c-4fbb-9dfd-cd602a6710af.jpg) (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/L8ton75/media/a1f313c3-3d1c-4fbb-9dfd-cd602a6710af.jpg.html)
Yes. Not Sunday best.
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Percy- did you mention fancy dress?
(http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p496/L8ton75/a1f313c3-3d1c-4fbb-9dfd-cd602a6710af.jpg) (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/L8ton75/media/a1f313c3-3d1c-4fbb-9dfd-cd602a6710af.jpg.html)
Yes. Not Sunday best.
That is without doubt one of my favourite photos of all time. I posted it on Facebook after one of their catalogue of play off losses and my friends from a variety of different clubs absolutely loved it.
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You have to feel sorry for the lad, being born into that.
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You have to feel sorry for the lad, being born into that.
He's obviously just been fed another Sty Pie Special to take his mind off the shit that's on the pitch.
If he had a little intelligence and took a quick glance to his right to confirm what he's always really feared, he'd be off like a fu**ing rocket!
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Back to 'stand gate'. Can we please get a straight answer as to why you didn't choose the back of the Holte lower where no one would be behind you?
I generally like what you are trying to do but I can't understand this point.
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Back to 'stand gate'. Can we please get a straight answer as to why you didn't choose the back of the Holte lower where no one would be behind you?
I generally like what you are trying to do but I can't understand this point.
Various reasons. Partly because we want to be closer to the players but primarily because the vast majority of areas where there are large groupings of seats together are towards the front of the stand. there were actually larger blocks of seats for us to move to in the font to middle sections of L4, L6 and L6 but we decided not to do this as it wasn't in the clubs designated "singing section" so we thought this may cause further problems.
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Is it Brigada who are sorting a Refugees Welcome banner for Leicester?
Good on you, if so.
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Is it Brigada who are sorting a Refugees Welcome banner for Leicester?
Good on you, if so.
Yes maybe, but this is the bit about them I'm not comfortable with. They, on some issues and not necessarily this one, don't represent every Villa fans point of view. They haven't even got general consensus on standing let alone things outside the footy arena. I come to footy to leave all those things behind, it's my hobby and a place were all different folk of different religions, political standpoints, gender or race come together in common cause. I quite like that.
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Is it Brigada who are sorting a Refugees Welcome banner for Leicester?
Good on you, if so.
Yes maybe, but this is the bit about them I'm not comfortable with. They, on some issues and not necessarily this one, don't represent every Villa fans point of view. They haven't even got general consensus on standing let alone things outside the footy arena. I come to footy to leave all those things behind, it's my hobby and a place were all different folk of different religions, political standpoints, gender or race come together in common cause. I quite like that.
I'm sure they don't, but if it's their view, they're entitled to express it, surely?
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Is it Brigada who are sorting a Refugees Welcome banner for Leicester?
Good on you, if so.
Yes maybe, but this is the bit about them I'm not comfortable with. They, on some issues and not necessarily this one, don't represent every Villa fans point of view.
I don't think that just by holding a banner up they're claiming to are they?
They're representing their point of view.
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Fair play to them if that's the case, just glad it's not a certain website with various trashy items to sell alongside their banners.
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Some things are more important than intra-fans group decision making and the refugee issue is certainly one of those. I'm really proud we're the first club to agree to such a banner.
It certainly shows progress since thousands of villa fans sang 'You're the pride of Pakistan' away at Leicester under Brian little. Never forgotten that.
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Great idea. Hope it's not "The refugees welcome."
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Great idea. Hope it's not "The refugees welcome."
Ha ha ha.
When I posted the above, I thought "bet someone makes a 'the' related joke". Good work.