Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Phil from the upper holte on October 26, 2013, 09:17:39 PM
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Been thinking about this for a while..
What is the problem with home games? Our home form has been woeful for quite a while, Under Lambert, Mcleish, Houllier Mon Etc.. WHY?
Are we scared? Is it a moody atmosphere for the players? Is it the managers? Is it the ground as is does it give away teams a boost, it's big it's a nice pitch, does it remind them of a cup final?
Is it the players? What is the answer? We must have the worst home record in the league over the last 10 years
What are you're thoughts?
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Probably a combination of most of those things .
We need to take the game to the opposition and impose ourselves more and put pressure on teams - a change in formation at home is a must.
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Because we do not have any "winners" in the team - those who go out expecting to win and bursting every sinew to do so.
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Yeah but even when we were decent under Mon we still weren't great at home
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Maybe it's because for so long we've set ourselves up as a counter-attacking team. We haven't had too many actual footballers who are comfortable in possession, so we've grown accustomed to hitting teams on the break. Now, that's all very well and good away from home, where you're not expected to have too much possession. But at home, supporters want to see their team on the ball. The opposition tends to sit back a bit more and - lacking players with guile and the ability to create - we've found it difficult to break teams down. We need better footballers, but that doesn't look likely to happen with the current policy.
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I think we do have the players to play differently but we don't you just pretty much know who the team's going to be and to be honest I thought Lambert was a manager who'd pick the team for the opposition
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Tactics, squad personnel etc.
I always think VP is too nice a venue, nice dressing rooms, big pitch, not really a hostile crowd and we always let teams settle into the game.
Man. United have been lording it here for years, Liverpool and Arsenal have between them 1 defeat since 1998 and even now the likes of Everton and Spurs who had diabolical records at VP until recently are now coming to this ground and regularly winning.
Just not good enough. We'll probably beat some of the crap teams coming up (I hope) but this problem won't go away until we have a major rethink on tactics and how we actually play.
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It's because we make it far too easy for the away team to play against us. We aren't a passing team and we have no width so, with our pretty big pitch were up against it already. Also, our midfield is the shittest i've ever known. We have nobody protecting the back four and no one who can pick a pass (yes Delph is doing well but he can't pass at all).
For some reason Lambert is not fancying Sylla, the very person who's provided the midfield with some security last season in those vital closing months. Lambert is a big part of the problem.
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Maybe it's because for so long we've set ourselves up as a counter-attacking team. We haven't had too many actual footballers who are comfortable in possession, so we've grown accustomed to hitting teams on the break. Now, that's all very well and good away from home, where you're not expected to have too much possession. But at home, supporters want to see their team on the ball. The opposition tends to sit back a bit more and - lacking players with guile and the ability to create - we've found it difficult to break teams down. We need better footballers, but that doesn't look likely to happen with the current policy.
Pretty much exactly what I was preparing to say. Today in the first half we actually, for once, took the game to Everton and we looked pretty bloody dangerous just hopelessly unlucky.
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All of the above to be honest. Less so the fans. I mean obviously the atmos can get a bit negative at times but we've been very patient with Lambert and had very little reward for that patience at Villa park.
I think we desperately need to go back to three central midfielders, with two runners, being Delph and Sylla of course. Then anyone of KEA and Westwood in that more cultured role, but that said, neither is anywhere near good enough. In fact I'm not sure either is actually Prem quality. As soon as GG is fit, I'd give him a try (but I've my doubts about him too given all his setbacks). But we desperately need new signings in midfield. I don't think it's a case of one standout number 10 say. I genuinely think we need another 2 ball playing midfielders, one of whom can play more advanced as a playmaker, bare minimum.
You can't get away with having as many players as we do who can't control or pass a ball. Delph's not brilliant in either of those aspects but he makes up for that with determination and his running ability. And when he calms it down on the ball, he's not a bad footballer. He just gets that rush of blood too often and rushes his pass or tries to run past one player too many. Reo-Cokeritus you might call it.
There's not really a player in the side with a decent footballing brain. Benteke on his day has a lot of flair and will win us games single handed when he's 100% but behind him we lack any sort of guile or subtlety. Gabby is typically inconsistent. His pace makes him indispensable to us at this stage but we really need better. Long term I think Gab is a potentially great impact player to have on the bench.
Weimann is overrated I think. He's got a turn of pace but he's not lightening quick. He gets into some good positions and when his minds right can finish but his composure is letting him down right now. But his all round play isn't good enough and it's not improving. He needs to work on his fitness. His touch is poor and he's not brilliant running with the ball. I don't think if we have aspirations to be a solid top half side, that he's good enough right now. He certainly needs to be rested at the moment. Chances keep falling to him but he's wasting good opportunities.
Tonev at least looked bright and provided at least some width, but his ball control, again, is not prem level and his end product is more hit than miss.
Honestly we might have to give up on any subtlety at home until Jan. Play a 4-4-2. I would bring back Lowton and play Bacuna on one wing then either Gabby or Tonev on the other, maybe Alby when he's fit.
Two big men up front. Benteke and probably Kozak. Benteke I'd have dropping off a little so he can get running at the CB's.
We're incapable of playing a passing game so we should get some pace down the wings, get some crosses in and get some joy that way, and just get the ball quickly to the big men, let them hold it up and bring the others into play. If we have to win ugly, so be it. But we've got to start winning.
If we play the 4-3-3 we need to play it wide. Away from home I'd stick to the 4-3-3 with Sylla coming in.
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The buck stops with Lambert.
He implements the wrong formation. Has bought the wrong players. We still see the same basic mistakes being made by the young players. No improvement in training. Lack of ideas. No tactical awareness. The list goes on and on.
What can you say positive about Lambert? He is very complimentary about the club and he signed Benteke. After that I'm struggling.
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No leadership at the club. No unity of purpose. Are there standards? Does incompetence or poor performance result in punishment?
Our team and players are simply not feared. Teams have a psychological advantage against us.
The fans are brilliant. Turning up as they do to watch other teams beat us on our home turf.
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The buck stops with Lambert.
He implements the wrong formation. Has bought the wrong players. We still see the same basic mistakes being made by the young players. No improvement in training. Lack of ideas. No tactical awareness. The list goes on and on.
What can you say positive about Lambert? He is very complimentary about the club and he signed Benteke. After that I'm struggling.
I really want the guy to succeed but I just don't think he's got it in him. He's over his head. He set out the notion that we would become a passing side yet he hasn't bought the players to do that. The players he inherited who were probably best suited to fitting into a playmaking role, Bannan and Ireland, he could never fit into the side. Now granted they're both pillocks and wasters, but he could never find a way of fitting them in and both, at least at the beginning did actually put the effort in to trying to please the new boss. Pricks they might be, but they were the two best passers on our books. Now I was all for getting rid and I'm glad they're gone, but did we buy replacements? No. Why on Earth did we sign two 6ft 4+ strikers this summer, both of whom aren't actually very good in the air? That's 8 million. I'd rather have bought a couple of half decent midfielders for that and just stuck with Bowery and Delfouneso in reserve, with Gabby and Weimann able to operate centrally too.
He continually fails to identify key problems. It's taken him long enough to turn our defence from shambolic to mediocre. Within games he doesn't act, like when Ben Arfa just destroyed us all game, or when Townsend gradually took over the game. He did nothing to try and counter either. We found a system and way of playing that seemed reasonably effective from jan-may. We've not employed it this season? That's basically taking one of the few things he's got right tactically, and deciding not to keep it up. We now play the wrong players and are back to the same stupidly narrow game style that saw us struggling earlier last season.
The way we play has no cohesion to it. At times we attack very quickly but with little consideration for the fact you have to have the ball in control and in possession. Poor passing, godawful control. Trying to force movements way too fast and nothing transpires. We're playing some really piss poor football again which is frustrating to see, because we were quite good to watch tail end of last season, but that's all gone. Again it wasn't particularly subtle but we played to our strengths but the problem is we've been worked out and there's no back up plan. My major worry is how Lambert seems quite oblivious to how shite we look at the moment. He thinks of us as a good footballing side but for the most part this season, we haven't been at all.
If results don't go our way in November it may be time for Randy to consider the managers position, whilst there's time to do something about it and prepare a new man for Jan.
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I really can't see Lerner sacking Lambert at all, especially if he's carrying out instructions
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If results don't go our way in November it may be time for Randy to consider the managers position, whilst there's time to do something about it and prepare a new man for Jan.
To give us our fifth manager in 3 1/2 years. There's a recipe for success.
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If a chairman and his lackeys make 3 poor managerial appointments in a row to be honest it's probably time they take a walk themselves.
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If results don't go our way in November it may be time for Randy to consider the managers position, whilst there's time to do something about it and prepare a new man for Jan.
To give us our fifth manager in 3 1/2 years. There's a recipe for success.
Don't knock it, Fergies available! ;)
But if we're in the bottom 3 after nearly 18 months in charge it's not good. Which could well happen. We've got tough games coming up, particularly as these teams around us will fancy a result too and we know how much the Tesco's will want to twist the knife in if we've had a couple more shit results before meeting them.
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If results don't go our way in November it may be time for Randy to consider the managers position, whilst there's time to do something about it and prepare a new man for Jan.
To give us our fifth manager in 3 1/2 years. There's a recipe for success.
Don't knock it, Fergies available! ;)
But if we're in the bottom 3 after nearly 18 months in charge it's not good. Which could well happen.
Don't get me wrong, I am as sick as the next man with our shit performances and results at home, and I too worry about us mooking around the arse end of the table, but saying "if we're in the bottom three, which could well happen" when we are 13th and have just had a really tough round of opening fixtures strikes me as a bit over the top.
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PL inherited a situation on par with what SGT called a "shambles" but in a modern league that requires millions and managerial genius to do well. Time will tell but patience is the key. It ain't the ground or the fans by the way.
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If results don't go our way in November it may be time for Randy to consider the managers position, whilst there's time to do something about it and prepare a new man for Jan.
To give us our fifth manager in 3 1/2 years. There's a recipe for success.
Don't knock it, Fergies available! ;)
But if we're in the bottom 3 after nearly 18 months in charge it's not good. Which could well happen.
Don't get me wrong, I am as sick as the next man with our shit performances and results at home, and I too worry about us mooking around the arse end of the table, but saying "if we're in the bottom three, which could well happen" when we are 13th and have just had a really tough round of opening fixtures strikes me as a bit over the top.
Not particularly. We're struggling to score at the moment and we look like we'll ship goals. Granted not as many as last season. I think it would be just as over the top to take these games lightly and expect us to turn things around, which of course could happen, but after the last couple of games I'm sadly in the glass half empty camp.
Some magic from the big man wouldn't go amiss.
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Look at the next six fixtures and look at the last.
Worrying about being bottom three is gigantic overkill, no matter how feeble we can be.
Dropping into the bottom three would not just constitute failing to turn things around, it would be a significant worsening.
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I don't want Lambert sacked, he's just gotta sort it at home especially
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After 3 years of spending large amounts of the season in the bottom 3, if we dropped in there again it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. :-\
I always worry too when we have more of an expectation to win. To be fair we won absolute must wins against those around us last season, but we're still capable of results like the home games against Wigan and Newcastle last season (and Newcastle this).
(http://www.cineaste.com/images/0000/0829/woody-1.jpg)
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There is no atmosphere in the ground. Our fans need motivating to do other than just turn up. Say what you like, it is too quiet in there. We need to generate something and the team should be instrumental in that.
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There is very little to get excited about. No set of fans are going to be sitting there going wild watching Westwood pass 4 yards sideways and Tonev blazing another shot into the stands from 30 yards.
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There is no atmosphere in the ground. Our fans need motivating to do other than just turn up. Say what you like, it is too quiet in there. We need to generate something and the team should be instrumental in that.
I thought we were pretty good today. Where I sit in the holte upper we were singing loads in the first half and I only actually heard Everton once in first 70 mins.
We need more leaders out there, and the much maligned experience for me.
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There is very little to get excited about. No set of fans are going to be sitting there going wild watching Westwood pass 4 yards sideways and Tonev blazing another shot into the stands from 30 yards.
Bloody hell. Do you take this sort of attitude into the ground with you? Can't they frisk you and relieve you of misery on the way in? If you unleash this incessant vitriol on here what are you like in the stadium? Maybe we're crap at home because we've got too much "support" like yours?
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As gutting as today was it's important to remember that Martinez took over a team/squad that has taken 10 years to build by the same manager and same philosophy. Martinez has built on that. Lambert has taken over from 5 years of chopping and changing and turmoil. Let's not give up on him yet.
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Lack of Investment. Wages that just aren't going to attract the required quality. Get used to it why Lerner remains..
The squad is so thin on quality. A one man team.
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I cannot add to the general consensus of this thread which is right on the money. However, one factor which has not been touched on is the mental fragility of the players who have developed a losing mentality at home. We tend to forget that most young players are physically mature but mentally less so. I know what a dickhead I was in my late teens and early twenties.
Never once in yesterday's game did I see one of the senior pros have a word of encouragement or support with a rookie who had made a mistake. A captain in the mould of Martin or Olof would make a big difference at home games. An extrovert larger than life manager like BFR or SGT would also help.
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Lerners reduced the payroll which had to be done, the best we can hope for is that we are a more attractive proposition for any potential buyer. This isn't Knocking Lerner he put a lot of money into the wrong hands and got his fingers burnt but by his continued absence from Villa Park it would seem the love affair is over. I think we all got a little bit ahead of ourselves with the success of Benteke when you fish at the bottom of the pool you usually hook a lot of rubbish and i will be gobsmacked if more than one of this summers purchases prove to be worth while. The manager continues to pick players that are woefully out of form, there could be one of two reasons, the first is that he has a touch of MON about him and he has favourites or secondly he doesn't believe there is anyone better to put in. An inditement either way.
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Before reading the thread I would have said it was a combination of things.
Having read the thread and some of the negative comments about Lambert, maybe it is the fans ?
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Before reading the thread I would have said it was a combination of things.
Having read the thread and some of the negative comments about Lambert, maybe it is the fans ?
It's the fans fault we're so poor at home? How does that work then?
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Before reading the thread I would have said it was a combination of things.
Having read the thread and some of the negative comments about Lambert, maybe it is the fans ?
It's the fans fault we're so poor at home? How does that work then?
I don't think it's the fans fault but I do sometimes think players are scared to make a mistake
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Before reading the thread I would have said it was a combination of things.
Having read the thread and some of the negative comments about Lambert, maybe it is the fans ?
It's the fans fault we're so poor at home? How does that work then?
I don't think it's the fans fault but I do sometimes think players are scared to make a mistake
I think the fans have very fair and unbelievably patient with Villa under Lambert considering the shit they've put us through (especially at home). Blaming the fans sounds like a convenient excuse to me.
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Before reading the thread I would have said it was a combination of things.
Having read the thread and some of the negative comments about Lambert, maybe it is the fans ?
It's the fans fault we're so poor at home? How does that work then?
I don't think it's the fans fault but I do sometimes think players are scared to make a mistake
I think the fans have very fair and unbelievably patient with Villa under Lambert considering the shit they've put us through (especially at home). Blaming the fans sounds like a convenient excuse to me.
I do agree, I don't blame the fans
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The key for me watching everton was the mix of youth and experience in their team , Barry was superb for them and it concerns me whenever lambert is asked about experience and he says experienced layers guarantee you nothing .
The team and squad are packed with players lacking in premiership experience and I'm not even sure we have 1 player who has even played 50 games at this level.
It's all well and good bringing in young and hungry but you need the right blend , when things go wrong there are no old heads or leaders to help the younger lads - i do not see lambert changing his policy regarding signing experience as he seems set against it sadly.
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Before reading the thread I would have said it was a combination of things.
Having read the thread and some of the negative comments about Lambert, maybe it is the fans ?
It's the fans fault we're so poor at home? How does that work then?
I don't think it's the fans fault but I do sometimes think players are scared to make a mistake
I think the fans have very fair and unbelievably patient with Villa under Lambert considering the shit they've put us through (especially at home). Blaming the fans sounds like a convenient excuse to me.
I do agree, I don't blame the fans
Agreed. Lambert can count himself lucky Ellis isn't still in charge, as the fans would have slaughtered him by now, and he probably would have been sacked as well.
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The key for me watching everton was the mix of youth and experience in their team , Barry was superb for them and it concerns me whenever lambert is asked about experience and he says experienced layers guarantee you nothing .
The team and squad are packed with players lacking in premiership experience and I'm not even sure we have 1 player who has even played 50 games at this level.
It's all well and good bringing in young and hungry but you need the right blend , when things go wrong there are no old heads or leaders to help the younger lads - i do not see lambert changing his policy regarding signing experience as he seems set against it sadly.
Ive said it before on here, I'm convinced the real reason Lambert goes for youth is because of the lack of funds. Experienced players want good wages - something Lerner won't pay anymore, and we're suffering for it.
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I do not think there is any club, with the possible exception of Newcastle who whose fans would have put up with the truly abominable rubbish we have had served up by the club in the post MON era and still turned up in such numbers. The single one thing which is not wrong with the club is the fans. Gluttons for punishment are the words which spring to mind.
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The key for me watching everton was the mix of youth and experience in their team , Barry was superb for them and it concerns me whenever lambert is asked about experience and he says experienced layers guarantee you nothing .
The team and squad are packed with players lacking in premiership experience and I'm not even sure we have 1 player who has even played 50 games at this level.
It's all well and good bringing in young and hungry but you need the right blend , when things go wrong there are no old heads or leaders to help the younger lads - i do not see lambert changing his policy regarding signing experience as he seems set against it sadly.
Ive said it before on here, I'm convinced the real reason Lambert goes for youth is because of the lack of funds. Experienced players want good wages - something Lerner won't pay anymore, and we're suffering for it.
Maybe , but he quickly jettisoned the experienced players he inherited - maybe he feels the young up and coming players will buy into his methods to coin a phrase.
Randy has backed his manager when many others may have pulled the trigger last year - it will be an extremely big couple of months ahead now and lambert must deliver results - the jury is out for me at the moment but no question the home form must improve and fast.
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It isn't the fans,we have been very patient,each individual game you can point to tactics,e.g. Martinez sending Osman on and we go 2 in midfield.The underlying factor though is Lerner,I spent years hating Ellis as he ran us like a corner shop and we are now getting the same American style.The best spell se ever had was when neither were involved.Sadly now our only hope is he sells us to a trillionaire.
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It isn't the fans,we have been very patient,each individual game you can point to tactics,e.g. Martinez sending Osman on and we go 2 in midfield.The underlying factor though is Lerner,I spent years hating Ellis as he ran us like a corner shop and we are now getting the same American style.The best spell se ever had was when neither were involved.Sadly now our only hope is he sells us to a trillionaire.
I do get the feeling that randy has given up on his hopes of taking the club into the upper echelons and is happy to finish in and around midtable - however we are not even achieving that and with the money he has provided i feel we should be able to comfortably be around midtable .
I'm not sure what randys long term plans are but multi billionaires are thin on the ground regarding football as everton have found out .kenwright has been prepared to sell for years to the right people and they have never come along .
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The key for me watching everton was the mix of youth and experience in their team , Barry was superb for them and it concerns me whenever lambert is asked about experience and he says experienced layers guarantee you nothing .
The team and squad are packed with players lacking in premiership experience and I'm not even sure we have 1 player who has even played 50 games at this level.
It's all well and good bringing in young and hungry but you need the right blend , when things go wrong there are no old heads or leaders to help the younger lads - i do not see lambert changing his policy regarding signing experience as he seems set against it sadly.
This to me is the major factor. We have no leaders on the pitch. No one to either bawl at or console the younger players. To keep them going, to go again (to coin a phrase). Yesterday after the opening salvo of the second half we gradually slipped away as Everton came back into the game. We needed someone to get at our players, get their heads up, drain that last bit of energy from them, and maybe, just maybe, we would have nicked a goal and everything would have been so different.
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Spot on fredm
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Of course it's not the fans. Another 35k at the ground yesterday is testimony to the fact that Villa fans are pretty bloody loyal and pretty bloody patient considering the shite that has been served up for years.
What is becoming painful now, to coin a phrase, is that yesterday was another 'routine home defeat'.
And we keep losing in the same way.
In the vast majority of games, we have a bit of possession, we have a lot of energy and endeavor, a lot of huff and puff and then the opposistion invariably show a little bit of quality, and we concede.
Once behind, well generally, that's game over.
The games coming up are absolutely critical to prevent us getting sucked into another relegation scrap, but these will be no means easier games.
That said, we look a more composed team than last year, we don't look like rabbits in the headlights anymore, but the lack of quality is still the concern, and the single biggest factor for me is nouse. We have no nouse in the team, someone who can change a game when it needs changing, someone who can see how a game is panning out and make things happen to try and change it.
That goes for the manager as also.
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We're not a physical side ( no fear from the opposition)
We've had one, maybe two seasons where we were any good at set pieces ( so we can't build pressure up and we don't get excited and make noise when we get corners because we expect nothing)
We don't have a midfield that is about either
- running at the opposition (we had it with Milner driving from central midfield)
- being camped in the opposition half, building pressure (like when Barry was around or like Manure at their best)
- playmaking. Of any sort.
For 30mins at the start of yesterday, most of my criticisms above weren't true. We did a lot of the good things above. Mostly driven by Delph and Gabby and Tonev running at them.
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Before reading the thread I would have said it was a combination of things.
Having read the thread and some of the negative comments about Lambert, maybe it is the fans ?
It's the fans fault we're so poor at home? How does that work then?
I don't think it's the fans fault but I do sometimes think players are scared to make a mistake
I think the fans have very fair and unbelievably patient with Villa under Lambert considering the shit they've put us through (especially at home). Blaming the fans sounds like a convenient excuse to me.
And under McLeish, Houllier and MON. Awful home form is not a new thing.
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If results don't go our way in November it may be time for Randy to consider the managers position, whilst there's time to do something about it and prepare a new man for Jan.
To give us our fifth manager in 3 1/2 years. There's a recipe for success.
Quite agree. My mate who I sit next to is not a Lambert fan but even he realises that you can't keep chopping and changing managers every other season.
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We were very patient with the situation last season, lets try and be a bit patient this season.
How different this forum will be after three wins back to back. We hope.
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If results don't go our way in November it may be time for Randy to consider the managers position, whilst there's time to do something about it and prepare a new man for Jan.
To give us our fifth manager in 3 1/2 years. There's a recipe for success.
Quite agree. My mate who I sit next to is not a Lambert fan but even he realises that you can't keep chopping and changing managers every other season.
No you can't clampy but if you have the wrong man then you must change.
I'm not saying lambert should go , but we need to results in the next couple of months - we cannot just stick with him because changing manager causes instability - we need to stick with him because he is the right man for the job - if randy does at any point decide he isn't then he should make a decision .
I'm disappointed because I thought we had turned the corner last season but for some reason the midfield solidity that was provided by sylla has been changed by leaving him on the bench - we look weaker for it .
The 4-3-3 does not work at home - we need to change it .
As for lambert , I would stick with him and see how the next few months develop - but if we do find ourselves around the bottom 3 in the new year then serious questions should be asked.
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I do hate seeing away supporters celebrate almost the inevitable and than rub it in our faces with "you are shit you know you are" week in week out.
I hate the look on young supporters faces as we leave the ground.
I hate football for the rest of the week.
OH I DO HATE LOSING AT HOME.
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In our first game we played a good Liverpool side; hey they must be great if they can swat the "Pride of the Midlands".
In that game, they passed it better than us for forty minutes, created one opening and scored it. For the remaining 50 minutes, we managed to get on the front foot and passed it better than them. We too though only managed one opening, but it was well saved and the game was lost.
We didn't fashion enough chances that our possession and dominance merrited. We we lacked variety and an incisiveness in our passing in the final third, much like the better team we were playing did in their forty minutes.
Next up was Newcastle. The worst performance of the season. Six or so players had stinkers. We were disjointed in the way we passed it, we were static and too narrow. We got what we deserved against a side who are mid-table.
Man City will more than likely win the league. Descriptions of this as a fluke based on the balance of the game are products of a negative dogma. We deserved the win. We created more than they and two set pieces aside, defended (unusually for us) very well. The first half was too easy for them, the second saw our wing backs push right on and it caused them problems. We also took our chances when we had them. One Toure run aside, Man City, for all their billions, had no response.
Spurs. A tight game, defined by a soft goal and one moment of quality from three players who cost in excess of £60 million. There are fine margins in this league, but then there are some thick ones too; clubs in the top six spending a lot of money on a few very good players is one of them. Much like the Liverpool game, we were too obvious in our attacking play, which against a good side like Liverpool and a better one like Spurs is going to see us suffer. At one nil we had a great chance; Benteke should have burried a header unmarked from six yards.
Everton. Consistency in personel serves Martinez well. Not too many managers will be relegated and then handed the keys to a top six/seven team. This game was different from the rest, as we created a number of golden opportunities. We should have been three goals to the good before Guzan made his first save. Goals change games and you have to take chances like we had. Gabby at one nil down was an appalling miss. Leon Osman coming on for Englands ineffectual great hope changed things, as kept and used the ball far better than Berkley managed.
That was how I saw the games at home thus far. I am not trying to answer long term problems, as I no longer think it matters a great deal why we could only win 10 under O'Neill at home.
The common themes are that we have played a lot of very good teams, when we ourselves are mid-table in my opinion. What we have created, we have by and large fluffed. A point against Liverpool and three against Everton would have left the Merseysiders with no complaints.
Everton was different in that we were a lot more inventive and opened them up four or five times; the football prior to Gabbys miss was excellent. I think Tonev helped, as his passing was quicker and he was willing to hit the box with his runs.
I personally think the absence of Sylla is a factor. Delph is our best midfielder, he has pace and an ability to beat players, while Sylla offers all the physical defensive options and more that Delph does. Bring Sylla into sit by another, let Delph be the midfielder with more licence and push Tonev into Andi's position; the only player to put a few crosses (good ones too) into the box yesterday.
We have been punished for profligacy and punished by ruthlessness at both ends. Nobody has battered us, but if you miss the chances you create, small in most games, enough in the later, then you will get hurt. This will amplified more so against the quality we have played.
I don't think atmosphere or how whiny the Holte is means a great deal. Selection and a run of the worst fixtures I can remember at a time when the team is looking to put another 8-10 points on the board to go from bottom six to mid-table.
November, away from home too, will tell us a great deal. We all to a man expect us to beat both Cardiff and Sunderland, two sides who I think will struggle to stay in the league. To put them into the analysis above; they are far from top sides, they lack the quality to hurt you in an instant and they will give you more in front of goal. We have got to win both and we should win both, people expect us to win both, but we all lack the confidence to say that we will win both with 100% certainty.
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It goes without saying that if results and performances get chronically bad, then he'll be under pressure anyway. At the moment though we're just a team who struggle very badly at home and that needs to change.
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sacking managers doesn't always work. I read an article about Pittsburgh Steelers and they had 3 head coaches since 1969. They haven't done too badly. Manchester United had Alex Ferguson for about 25 years or whatever. But again we need to learn to pass the ball and keep the ball. We played a lot of counter attacking football and it just don't work.
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One of the major issues is not having the players at our disposal to play the way Lambert wants to either. There's also a total lack of a calming, composed influence in midfield. Someone like Barry or Petrov that we've had in the past. We play like blue ass flies. Sometimes a passing move will come off, look pretty good, but most times because the players haven't got very good technique it just ends in nothing.
There's something to be said for having a middle gear. We've just got first and fifth. Everton took their time, showed a bit of composure and consideration and scored two well taken goals. That was the difference. A bit of nous, and bit of thought.
Our players run on instinct. I don't think many have the footballing brain to slow a game down at all. I mean Gabby for example is one of the best examples of a player who's best when he's at full pelt and doesn't have to think. Get him through on a one on one when he has time and he's one of the last players you'd put your money on. Weimann I think is similar.
2-3 midfield signings wouldn't go amiss in Jan, and some experience. I think with Dunne out the way, Ireland and Bent soon to leave we'll have the wage space to get someone with a bit more experience. Some experience and some class. Then our ability to keep the ball will improve and our ability to pick a killer pass in the final third will too.
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I'm not really sure what the answer is. I thought we might have turned a corner after beating Man City but then went and played out a dull affair with Hull, were insipid against Spurs and wasteful against Everton. I thought we'd turned a corner at the end of last season but we seem to be less inventive and composed on the ball this season for whatever reason. I also believe that we didn't get the two players we absolutely needed this summer: The playmaker and the experienced centre half.
I'm not ready to call for Lambert's head. I'm not even close to that, but I am very bored with Villa Park being more like a drive through than a fortress. A good November is essential.
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I'm not really sure what the answer is. I thought we might have turned a corner after beating Man City but then went and played out a dull affair with Hull, were insipid against Spurs and wasteful against Everton. I thought we'd turned a corner at the end of last season but we seem to be less inventive and composed on the ball this season for whatever reason. I also believe that we didn't get the two players we absolutely needed this summer: The playmaker and the experienced centre half.
I'm not ready to call for Lambert's head. I'm not even close to that, but I am very bored with Villa Park being more like a drive through than a fortress. A good November is essential.
Spot on maz.
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I'm not really sure what the answer is. I thought we might have turned a corner after beating Man City but then went and played out a dull affair with Hull, were insipid against Spurs and wasteful against Everton. I thought we'd turned a corner at the end of last season but we seem to be less inventive and composed on the ball this season for whatever reason. I also believe that we didn't get the two players we absolutely needed this summer: The playmaker and the experienced centre half.
I'm not ready to call for Lambert's head. I'm not even close to that, but I am very bored with Villa Park being more like a drive through than a fortress. A good November is essential.
Spot on maz.
X2. Well said.
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I think tactics and VP being a pleasure to visit are the main things but the fans are increasingly becoming part of the problem rather than the solution.
Yesterday was a game we could and should have won. We were the better side for most of the game and could have been out of sight by half time but fora poor day at the office for the strikers and some brilliant goalkeeping by Tim Howard. Yet come the end of the game the players got booed off, again.
We moan about glory hunters and how they expect their team to win but our fans seem to be no better/different these days.
That can't help ease the pressure in the younger players.
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I believe that good teams are built in the dressing room and on the training pitch. I would like to think that Lambert is an excellent man manager and has formed a cohesive unit that will play for each other, box ticked. Where I think we are lacking is perhaps a tactical and coaching back room team, I worry about the lack of basic ball control, lack of imagination from set pieces, the team running out of steam after an hour even though we are not playing a pressing method, woeful strength in the tackle and movement and mobility off the ball. World class players are so deemed because those traits are a natural by-product, with other mere mortal players it has to be ' trained in' and my opinion is that we have not given this area enough focus.
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In our first game we played a good Liverpool side; hey they must be great if they can swat the "Pride of the Midlands".
In that game, they passed it better than us for forty minutes, created one opening and scored it. For the remaining 50 minutes, we managed to get on the front foot and passed it better than them. We too though only managed one opening, but it was well saved and the game was lost.
We didn't fashion enough chances that our possession and dominance merrited. We we lacked variety and an incisiveness in our passing in the final third, much like the better team we were playing did in their forty minutes.
Next up was Newcastle. The worst performance of the season. Six or so players had stinkers. We were disjointed in the way we passed it, we were static and too narrow. We got what we deserved against a side who are mid-table.
Man City will more than likely win the league. Descriptions of this as a fluke based on the balance of the game are products of a negative dogma. We deserved the win. We created more than they and two set pieces aside, defended (unusually for us) very well. The first half was too easy for them, the second saw our wing backs push right on and it caused them problems. We also took our chances when we had them. One Toure run aside, Man City, for all their billions, had no response.
Spurs. A tight game, defined by a soft goal and one moment of quality from three players who cost in excess of £60 million. There are fine margins in this league, but then there are some thick ones too; clubs in the top six spending a lot of money on a few very good players is one of them. Much like the Liverpool game, we were too obvious in our attacking play, which against a good side like Liverpool and a better one like Spurs is going to see us suffer. At one nil we had a great chance; Benteke should have burried a header unmarked from six yards.
Everton. Consistency in personel serves Martinez well. Not too many managers will be relegated and then handed the keys to a top six/seven team. This game was different from the rest, as we created a number of golden opportunities. We should have been three goals to the good before Guzan made his first save. Goals change games and you have to take chances like we had. Gabby at one nil down was an appalling miss. Leon Osman coming on for Englands ineffectual great hope changed things, as kept and used the ball far better than Berkley managed.
That was how I saw the games at home thus far. I am not trying to answer long term problems, as I no longer think it matters a great deal why we could only win 10 under O'Neill at home.
The common themes are that we have played a lot of very good teams, when we ourselves are mid-table in my opinion. What we have created, we have by and large fluffed. A point against Liverpool and three against Everton would have left the Merseysiders with no complaints.
Everton was different in that we were a lot more inventive and opened them up four or five times; the football prior to Gabbys miss was excellent. I think Tonev helped, as his passing was quicker and he was willing to hit the box with his runs.
I personally think the absence of Sylla is a factor. Delph is our best midfielder, he has pace and an ability to beat players, while Sylla offers all the physical defensive options and more that Delph does. Bring Sylla into sit by another, let Delph be the midfielder with more licence and push Tonev into Andi's position; the only player to put a few crosses (good ones too) into the box yesterday.
We have been punished for profligacy and punished by ruthlessness at both ends. Nobody has battered us, but if you miss the chances you create, small in most games, enough in the later, then you will get hurt. This will amplified more so against the quality we have played.
I don't think atmosphere or how whiny the Holte is means a great deal. Selection and a run of the worst fixtures I can remember at a time when the team is looking to put another 8-10 points on the board to go from bottom six to mid-table.
November, away from home too, will tell us a great deal. We all to a man expect us to beat both Cardiff and Sunderland, two sides who I think will struggle to stay in the league. To put them into the analysis above; they are far from top sides, they lack the quality to hurt you in an instant and they will give you more in front of goal. We have got to win both and we should win both, people expect us to win both, but we all lack the confidence to say that we will win both with 100% certainty.
Excellent post, my friend. I agree with you completely.
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I must have watched a totally different game.
Yes we had good chances yesterday, but so did they.
So, not only could we have been out of sight at half time, but so could Everton.
As for Tonev, I really didn't think he touched the ball in the first 30 mins.
Still, it's all about opinions isn't it?
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Goals change games. We should have been 3-0 up before Lukaku's header. The game would have been entirely different.
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It could have very easily been 3-2 at half time. I'm amazed we didn't score, I thought they looked very dodgy at the back.
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It could have very easily been 3-2 at half time. I'm amazed we didn't score, I thought they looked very dodgy at the back.
Poor finishing I'm afraid , Weimann seemed to panic when he realised he was onside and gabbys effort was more worthy of a back pass - benteke was foiled twice by top goalkeeping , although the pen was accurate it was a nice height - either keep it low or into the roof of the net - not the height he put it.
Would people stick with him on pens as he's missed a couple now this season ?
Personally yes I would give him another go .
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Blame is an extreme word, but I was saying yesterday even before we lost the game that I can't remember such a strong synergy (if that's the right word) between the fans and the team.
Because we were actually playing pretty well before Everton scored in the second half yesterday. Let's not get confused by Sky type stats about 'shots on target' or 'making the goalie work', the truth is that balls pinging across and around the area are chances, and we had plenty of those, and actually also appeared to be defending well. I felt that the atmosphere was reflecting this, the fans were upbeat, I was even hearing new songs and chants.
Everton's goal, when it came, stunned everyone. Usually, when we concede, I am on my feet as the team troop back towards the centre circle to kick back off, shouting 'Come on!!!', but I didn't have it in me yesterday, I was gutted to see a decent performance heading towards nothing again. Alongside me, what had been a decent atmosphere around a decent performance, disintegrated into flat despondency in a moment.
......and that's what we saw feed into the team, the same despondency that fell across the crowd. From the time they scored, both the support and the team fell apart.
The contrast was there in the Spurs game - the instant perking up of the crowd and the team when Benteke came on, was only partially the difference that individual player made. It was a simultaneous lifting of the crowd and the team.
Like I say, it's not about blame, it's about feelings. It's hard work to fight your feelings, and try to lift the team when you feel let down, and disappointed, and the problem with modern football is at these prices, no-one feels they should have to work at it. When you've paid that much, and watching it is just pissing you off, then turning and walking out can easily seem like the best idea.
If we have any success with safe standing, the thing I will miss least about sitting is the sound of all those seats going up when things aren't going our way.
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I agree in some ways Amfy, when we went behind heads dropped and it was like here we go again , this is where we lack in experience and leadership to gee up the younger lads and go again to coin a phrase .
Too often , when we concede the heart goes from too many players and lambert resorts to throwing on another big striker which does little to help.
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Stats unfortunately tell us, game after game, at home that we're not creating enough. 3 shots on target yesterday, for a home game is not nearly good enough. It's been a similar tale in other home games. We might bemoan not getting what we deserved against Liverpool, Spurs and now Everton, but if you don't hit the target you've got no chance in scoring.
This is partly: a- not creating enough chances, b- not having the technically ability to create enough clear cut chances and c- not having any composure. We don't really measure much. It's always a bit manic our attacking play. Sometimes we need to calm it down a bit, but there's no one in midfield capable of stopping the ball, looking up and using their fucking brain. We don't have a single player with any vision in my opinion, which is a big part of our problem.
So far we've had 5 home games. We've had 13 shots on target in those games. That's less than 3 per game on average. Even considering the standard of opposition that's dire.
The big worry too is that we're not really creating that much away from home either. The Arsenal game aside, we've struggled a little away from home. We had a tight win against a dire Norwich and did nothing against Hull. Chelsea we played well considering the opposition but didn't really create enough clear cut opportunities to look like winning the game.
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I do hate seeing away supporters celebrate almost the inevitable and than rub it in our faces with "you are shit you know you are" week in week out.
I hate the look on young supporters faces as we leave the ground.
I hate football for the rest of the week.
OH I DO HATE LOSING AT HOME.
Mind you, all a bit rich coming from Everton fans who've won fuck all for longer than us. Your points generally are valid. I do avoid football conversation as much as possible after we lose.
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There is no atmosphere in the ground. Our fans need motivating to do other than just turn up. Say what you like, it is too quiet in there. We need to generate something and the team should be instrumental in that.
I thought we were pretty good today. Where I sit in the holte upper we were singing loads in the first half and I only actually heard Everton once in first 70 mins.
We need more leaders out there, and the much maligned experience for me.
It needs the whole ground going and always has. In P8 we hardly hear the Holte, but very much hear the away fans. Until there is some excitement on the pitch, the other parts of the ground rarely get involved.
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A bloody captain on the field would be a start, I'm sick of the opposition scoring & the players just turning round and wandering back to kick off, I want to see someone bollocking / rousing / getting them going.
Midfield is powder puff, still only Delph has made a spot his own in there - Westwood / KEA / Sylla, have any of them been better this season than Bannan was at the start of last?? Yesterday they were bossed by an experienced loan midfielder who we didn't appear to want in the summer.
Crowd is nothing to do with the home form, should we lose the next couple I can see lots turning on PL at which point it might be a factor.
Benteke aside we have bought a lot of squad fillers but seem to have failed to put the 2/3 quality players in the mix that we have craved for 4/5 years now.
We are good away because we have pace to counter attack but at home you need a) have the ball to control the game b) not panic every time you have the ball c) not have to do everything at 100mph d) move to want the ball, seems to me that some prefer to be near their marker so they don't have to get the ball.
And as for width, there are more than full backs allowed to play wide....this 3 up top nonsense that we seem to play to find places for Weimman & Gabby needs a rest - would say 451 but not sure we have 5 midfielders worthy of selection.
All my opinions of course & I'm not paid a couple of mill a year to manage the side......
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A bloody captain on the field would be a start, I'm sick of the opposition scoring & the players just turning round and wandering back to kick off, I want to see someone bollocking / rousing / getting them going.
Midfield is powder puff, still only Delph has made a spot his own in there - Westwood / KEA / Sylla, have any of them been better this season than Bannan was at the start of last?? Yesterday they were bossed by an experienced loan midfielder who we didn't appear to want in the summer.
Crowd is nothing to do with the home form, should we loose the next couple I can see lots turning on PL at which point it might be a factor.
Benteke aside we have bought a lot of squad fillers but seem to have failed to put the 2/3 quality players in the mix that we have craved for 4/5 years now.
We are good away because we have pace to counter attack but at home you need a) have the ball to control the game b) not panic every time you have the ball c) not have to do everything at 100mph d) move to want the ball, seems to me that some prefer to be near their marker so they don't have to get the ball.
And as for width, there are more than full backs allowed to play wide....this 3 up top nonsense that we seem to play to find places for Weimman & Gabby needs a rest - would say 451 but not sure we have 5 midfielders worthy of selection.
All my opinions of course & I'm not paid a couple of mill a year to manage the side......
Agree totally with your first paragraph it drives me mad that there is no recation when we conceded
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I don't think VP is any more "welcoming" than many other grounds and whilst we have played some of the better teams in the league at home, it's still no excuse for getting walked all over. I agree with what Jimbo says on page 1, our players suit the counter attacking game which doesn't really work at home. Gabby's pace and Weimann's movement are ineffective because both lack the touch, guile and composure to play in the tighter spaces at home. So do too many other players.
This is exacerbated by Lambert's insistence on trying to play through the middle, the players simply aren't clever enough or good enough technique wise to manage it against better teams. On the occasions the full backs manage to push up to provide width, it leave us badly exposed at the back. Any team that has a good winger can have a field day exposing the gaps (see Ben Arfa and Townsend). When we go behind Lambert seems to lose the plot completely tactically and goes 4-2-4 or 4-1-5 and hoof it.
Finally we lack experience and leaders on the pitch to steady the ship, and of course that vital midfielde general/playmaker. It seems everyone except Lambert can see we need these.
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I would have to agree with pretty much all of that KT.
I was very pleased with how we started yesterday. Too often I think we start at a snail pace at home which allows the away team to comfortably settle in and dictate play but Everton barely had a kick the first half hour and I still can't understand how we didn't score during that period.
Simply as my dad often points out such as yesterday you simply can't squander chance after chance against the top 6/7 teams in the league as sooner or later they'll take control of the game and create and take a chance themselves.
I could take a defeat like yesterday as the commitment and general play was decent.....but we've had so many of those home games over the last few years it is really starting to grate now.
Next two are Sunderland and Cardiff. Infact Palace is also coming up. I would love to think we'll comfortably win all three but it's not going to happen like that is it?
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Players need to start playing with their fecking heads up. All our midfielders (and Gabby and Weimann) seem to play with their heads down. No one looks up to consider what's around them. Doing just that is what got Everton their two goals. A bit of vision, a well picked out pass then a composed finish.
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We need to get out of the culture where losing is acceptable.
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We need to get out of the culture where losing is acceptable.
Are we in that culture?
I'd suggest a significant chunk of our fan base needs to get out of the culture where every win is a fluke and every defeat is because the players just aren't good enough.
Yes, our home record is shite but yesterday could've been a whole lot different if our strikers had stuck away the three golden changes we had before Everton scored. How often is Benteke going to miss a penalty and a one-on-one in a game? It was just one of those days.
And please don't take that as a culture where losing is acceptable.
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I think there is a general acceptance of home defeats, because we've experienced them for so long. You tend to get grumbling immeadiately after the game, and that subsides into 'ah what do you expect' etc.
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It's not just the fans either, there seems to be a sense of it around the club.
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I think there is a general acceptance of home defeats, because we've experienced them for so long. You tend to get grumbling immeadiately after the game, and that subsides into 'ah what do you expect' etc.
Well I don't accept them. There are a few kids around where I sit and I feel so sorry for them having to deal with our home form. They're too young to have ever seen us as anything other than a push over at home. I think that if I was their age I'd have told my dad I was busy playing on the Xbox or something the next time a home game came round!
That said, I still don't and won't boo the team. I think the only time I've booed the lads in as long as I can remember was at the end of the Bolton game in the TSM season. But on Saturday you could just tell the Holte was itching to boo at full time and sure enough they did. That can't help the morale or motivation of what is essentially a very young and inexperienced side.
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We need to get out of the culture where losing is acceptable.
Are we in that culture?
I'd suggest a significant chunk of our fan base needs to get out of the culture where every win is a fluke and every defeat is because the players just aren't good enough.
Yes, our home record is shite but yesterday could've been a whole lot different if our strikers had stuck away the three golden changes we had before Everton scored. How often is Benteke going to miss a penalty and a one-on-one in a game? It was just one of those days.
And please don't take that as a culture where losing is acceptable.
We're not creating enough decent chances, or hitting the target nearly enough. Home or even away to be honest. Now this might improve in the coming month with us playing so called lesser opposition, but I worry about the mentality we seem to have in some games.
We might be getting a few chances but we're wasting far too many through having no composure, or just players unable to control the ball. Unless we start creating more we're going to struggle for goals. If we struggle for goals we'll lose more games than we win, and that puts us in the shite.
I honestly can't see how some of our recent performances can be put down as acceptable. Has it really come to this? We've deservedly been pretty well beaten by Spurs and Everton all told, at home. I don't like that Spurs, Everton and now Liverpool just look beyond us. We've let these teams overtake us. We've not just fallen a little behind either, we're way off. The way some people have talked about our start makes it sound like we've faced a gargantuan challenge. But really? City are inconsistent. Chelsea haven't been spectacular by any means under Jose 2. Liverpool have started well and are kicking on this season after a couple of really average years. Everton are a solid if unspectacular side breaking in a new manager. Why should we be lowly underdogs on our own turf against these sides?
We can play the IF game if we like but the fact of the matter is we've won 3 games, drawn 1 and lost 5. If we're talking about being unlucky, I think genuinely the only game I've felt unfortunate or robbed in was Chelsea. By the same token I thought we were very fortuitous against Man City, so that evens out I guess (and if we can feel hard done by against Everton, surely City fans could feel hard done by for losing to us? They were camped in our half for 80% of the game).
The other games we more or less got what we deserved. Liverpool we plodded along without doing much. Liverpool didn't do too much either but that one moment of quality told. Again, if you're at home and you have only 2 shots on target, you can't feel too hard done by if you lose. 5 home games and a grand total of 13 shots on target tells you everything. It tells us we're not creating enough, we're not composed enough when we get those chances, and we're not scoring enough.
Something needs to happen with our home form, because we can't just rely on our away form. It would seem things will be a bit harder this season away from home. Teams are more wary about our threat now and I'm not sure Lambert has another plan up his sleeve right now.
I think there seems to be a bit of an "ah well..." mentality. An acceptance that getting to 40 points with plenty of time to spare is a good season. That we can almost write off games against anyone in the top 6 and be satisfied because we had 15 minutes of dominating play without really finding the target. Picking up results against bottom half teams might even prove tougher. It's a kill or be killed mentality down there and teams from aug-may are scrapping for their lives. Results will be inconsistent as we'll no doubt see over the next couple of months. An "easier" set of fixtures coming up is a possible beacon of false hope. Among that is a tough West Ham side who could well bully us. Cardiff who have looked okay in a few games without getting results (much like some of us think of ourselves) and could pull off a few positive results. Then there's West Brom who have the upper swing over us lately. Derbies are always very tough. Form doesn't often come into it, so it could go either way.
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A more positive spin on things might look like this:
Arsenal (a) - won and scored 3 goals away from home against a side that's been in the Champions League every season for the best part of two decades;
Chelsea (a) - cheated out of victory through a goal by a player who shouldn't have been on the pitch and a blatant handball in the box not given against the home side;
Liverpool (h) - neither team played well and we were undone by a superb goal that most teams would've conceded;
Newcastle (h) - bad day at the office - no excuses;
Norwich (a) - away win against a struggling team - can't really ask for any more than tha;
Man City (h) - victory against a team that's spent over £500m in the past few years and won the title just over a year ago;
Hull (a) - neither team played well - better than losing a game like that;
Spurs (h) - beaten by a team that was better than us last year and spent £100m over the summer;
Everton (h) - should've been out of site but for poor finishing. One of those days.
In addition, I reckon if you went through ours and Everton's first 11 and chose the best one in each position you'd struggle to pick many Villa players yet we were the better team for most of the game.
So it's really not as bad as some would make out. Yes it needs to get better but it's not going to happen overnight. Have some patience.
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Honestly the Everton game I thought was pretty end to end in the first half. We could have been away and clear granted, but we rushed chances and lacked composure. Our most dominant period was the first 15 of the second half I felt. We created less chances in that period though ironically.
But we were also at home. Having more chances than a club like Everton, who are good but not great, should be a given. Our response when they scored was the most disappointing thing. We were wretched from then on and never looked like doing anything. For me Everton gave a solid away performance. A clean sheet (with a little luck and a class pen save) and two well taken goals. Job done and deserved. I've no complaints on that one in all honesty.
Spurs and Liverpool might have far better squads but that we created so little of note is a worry. The least you should expect on your own patch is to get half a dozen shots on target on average in a game (as opposed to our average of under 3). I don't think there's actually a prem team these days that should be completely feared either, not like the Utd of 7-8 years ago or the Arsenal of 10, or the Chelsea under Mourinho in his first spell.
Chelsea is the only game that really sticks in my craw. We were robbed by awful refereeing.
I'd agree on the Everton team though. Man to man they're better in all but two-three positions. Keeper and center forward, though Lukaku won the day on sat over an unfit, below par Benteke. Delph I'd possibly have in as well.
To think it wasn't long ago that you'd look at our side and Evertons, player for player and you'd not fit many toffees into our line up. How times have changed.
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It's fairly obvious to me why we are so poor at home and have been for the last 3 seasons. We simply don't have the quality of players to impose ourselves on good or half decent opposition. Lambert has to recognize this and has to do something about it in January.
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It's fairly obvious to me why we are so poor at home and have been for the last 3 seasons. We simply don't have the quality of players to impose ourselves on good or half decent opposition. Lambert has to recognize this and has to do something about it in January.
The main problem with that is getting Lerner to release the funds.
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I remember a poor run of home results under Graham Taylor. I believe he started booking the team into hotels on Friday nights and travelling to VP by coach to try to solve it.
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Playing the likes of Cardiff and Sunderland is likely to be a decent remedy for the home form.
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Most of our players are not good enough it's that simple.
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I remember a poor run of home results under Graham Taylor. I believe he started booking the team into hotels on Friday nights and travelling to VP by coach to try to solve it.
O'neill did that anyway didn't he?
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Most of our players are not good enough it's that simple.
Not good enough to do what?
Beat Liverpool, Man City, Spurs, Everton more often than not? I agree.
Not good enough to collect 8-12 more points this season on last? I strongly disagree.
People need to orientate themselves as to where we currently are; that’s a position of mid-table, ironically enough a spot we currently occupy, after two, perhaps three, very difficult seasons. It isn’t the top six, but then for what we have had to spend to completely start a new, with a spend of around £3 million on average over 13 to 14 players, where should we be?
Mid-table is not where you want to be, its not where I want to be and its not where Lambert wants to be. If he had the funds to have spend an average of £20 million per player like Spurs have this summer, then perhaps we would be in the top six or scratching our heads as to why we are losing more times than not to better sides.
This will take time.
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It's fairly obvious to me why we are so poor at home and have been for the last 3 seasons. We simply don't have the quality of players to impose ourselves on good or half decent opposition. Lambert has to recognize this and has to do something about it in January.
The main problem with that is getting Lerner to release the funds.
It might be bullpoop but it would seem we had a little more open to us than PL used in Jan, and also perhaps a little more in August that wasn't used. That aside some of his choices in player have been very strange. We've been crying out for a creative midfielder so it made no sense in him spending 7 million on Kozak when we had Benteke still on board and Helenius had also been bought in.
There has been money there. Not limitless amounts that O Neill seemed to get granted but enough. Rather than bringing 7 players in who are all potentially Prem players (ranging from possibly the next 1-3 years). I'd rather have signed 3-4 slightly better quality who might have been readier for this league.
A major problem in Lambert's desire to be a team that plays a quick tempo passing game is that we don't have anyone in midfield who's got a good level of ball control or an incisive pass.
It's been pretty disappointing that our promptness in the transfer market, allowing us to have 6 of our 7 summer signings coming into the squad ready for a whole pre-season, hasn't really paid off. Obviously Okore is desperately unlucky and he looked very good. Bacuna and Luna have settled well and they're fantastically hard working, but Luna's still not great defensively and our system often gives him little assistance at the back. The major disappointments have been the attacking players. Helenius looks a hell of a long way off being ready. Tonev has struggled, though showed promise against Everton.
We might have hoped for some of them to hit the ground running slightly better but it's not been the case. It's been an incredible step up in quality for all our signings, barring Tony Moon who's played (albeit fleetingly) in La Liga.
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Lambert has been given money like every manager has under Randy. To suggest he hasn't is ridiculous.
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Lambert has been given money like every manager has under Randy. To suggest he hasn't is ridiculous.
Absolutely , he has spent more in the last 18 months than a lot of other managers have done and far more than he could ever have dreamt of at Norwich .
He has bought in probably 15 players or more - this is his team and his squad and it is down to him who he decided to buy , to blame randy is wrong.
I personally believe the money lambert has had at his disposal compared to other clubs is enough to comfortably have a side in mid-table at least.
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Norwich have out spent us in the previous two summer windows, without having to re-build an entire squad.
To labour the point. When Lambert took over, we had just finished well behind Norwich. So with a better team and spending more, would the logic not suggest that Norwich should be further ahead of us in the table, especially when you consider we have re-built a squad and they had the chance to supplement theirs?
They will be in a relegation battle, we wont.
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Most of our players are not good enough it's that simple.
Not good enough to do what?
Beat Liverpool, Man City, Spurs, Everton more often than not? I agree.
Not good enough to collect 8-12 more points this season? I strongly disagree.
People need to orientate themselves as to where we currently are; that’s a position of mid-table, ironically enough a spot we currently occupy, after two, perhaps three, very difficult seasons. It isn’t the top six, but then for what we have had to spend to completely start a new, with a spend of around £3 million on average over 13 to 14 players, where should we be?
Mid-table is not where you want to be, its not where I want to be and its not where Lambert wants to be. If he had the funds to have spend an average of £20 per player like Spurs have this summer, then perhaps we would be in the top six or scratching our heads as to why we are losing more times than not to better sides.
This will take time.
The current position isn't yet a cause for concern but we are only 2 points off the relegation zone, a place we've spent all too long hovering around in the last 3 seasons.
The main problem, at least for me, is Lambert not really identifying and solving problems that we need to address. We still have no clearly defined first choice system or side. Our most effective side last season, which kept us up, hasn't really been used. Both in the personnel and also the fact we've reverted to playing very narrow again. We opened up the pitch a bit more from feb-march and looked like scoring every game.
If we get sucked back into a relegation battle I'm not sure we can keep on surviving with such a young side. Eventually it'll catch up with us. We're not really playing to our strengths at the moment and a lot of our attacking focus seems to be on doing things we're not that equipped to do (playing high tempo and attacking through the middle).
It will take time but we've got to get a move on. We can't be waiting 2-3 years to be a comfortable mid-table side that doesn't have to look over its shoulder. I think everyone from 9th down is in the scrap this season. In terms of quality there's very little between the sides, with obvious exceptions being Palace and perhaps Cardiff and Hull who haven't done too badly thus far.
I'm hoping the players don't see November as an easy run. That would be a mistake. We were disappointingly lacklustre against Hull, coming after a great result. I think we took it lightly in many ways. We're going to have to scrap hard for every point, and we can't afford to close off areas of the pitch to our own attacking players. We need width again. January needs some significant transfer action too. We need to give ourselves a shot of bettering our squad and allowing us to be able to dominate the teams around us.
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Norwich have out spent us in the previous two summer windows, without having to re-build an entire squad.
Lambert chose to rebuild an entire squad .
Whereas others may have added 3 or 4 quality players at a decent cost he went for quantity not quality .
I am not knocking him so much as saying those who say he wasn't backed by randy are wrong - lambert has had money.
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Norwich have out spent us in the previous two summer windows, without having to re-build an entire squad.
Lambert chose to rebuild an entire squad .
I have now editted my post above.
Lambert had no choice but to re-build a squad. He inherrited a side that was rotten to the core, failed to reach 40 points and was a hair away from being relegated
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The Pride of the Midlands finished 8th and hit 50 points; epitome of mid-table. They occupy a similar position and the same number of points as us. Should they be worried about relegation, despite havind had an easier start to the season?
There are other sides as well, but are we not exactly where we should be at this stage in time? We are moving on.
You cannot go from the base camp of the Premier League mountain to the summit without climbing through the middle ground. The exception to this being a jet-pack, and we cannot afford no jet-packs to give us instant gratification.
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Norwich have out spent us in the previous two summer windows, without having to re-build an entire squad.
Lambert chose to rebuild an entire squad .
I have now editted my post above.
Lambert had no choice but to re-build a squad. He inherrited a side that was rotten to the core, failed to reach 40 points and was a hair away from being relegated
He also inherited a squad with players who had delivered in the past in the premiership- Mcleish played a negative style and houllier tried to play a much more passing game which didn't suit the players.
Lambert inherited a squad that cost huge multi millions - not a pile of shit .
If he had managed to get the best out of the likes of bent , nzogbia , Ireland and others then he may have found things different - he chose to play a narrow system with no wingers when he had a potent striker in bent .
He also failed to get the best out of experienced internationals and bought 15 players none of who had ever played in the premiership.
Lets not paint him as some super manager here , he has built things his way and I hope it works out for him but he inherited some very good players and chose to jettison them .
The main reason the squad struggled so much the season before was alex Mcleish and his negative football.
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Norwich have out spent us in the previous two summer windows
I'm not sure who should be more ashamed of this - Norwich for wasting millions or Villa for being outspent by Norwich effing City.
I am quietly beginning to question myself about some of Lambert's signings.
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We are moving on.
Where to ?
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The statistics.
For the Premier League as a whole over 21 years the win/draw/lose ratio has remained fairly consistent season on season averaging out at :-
Home wins 46% Draws 27% Away wins 27%.
http://www.pinnaclesports.com/online-betting-articles/08-2013/premier-league-hfa-betting.aspx
Since the start of season 2008/09 to date we have played precisely 100 home league games.
Our record over those 100 home games is:-
Won 33 Drawn 36 Lost 31. (It is 100 games, so you know the percentages ! )
Since the start of season 2008/09 to date we have gained 263 points.
That is 135 points from 100 home games and 128 points from 99 away games.
You can do almost anything with statistics. One indisputable conclusion of this......Aston Villa are not average !
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I can't see why he didn't take Barry when given the chance. The wages I know would have been big I know but he would be just what we need in such a fragile midfield as ours. I get what he's trying to do but we are desperately short of experience and desperately short of players our youngsters can learn from.
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We are moving on.
Where to ?
From being in the bottom six to being in the mid-table.
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Norwich have out spent us in the previous two summer windows
I'm not sure who should be more ashamed of this - Norwich for wasting millions or Villa for being outspent by Norwich effing City.
I am quietly beginning to question myself about some of Lambert's signings.
It's a fans prerogative to do so.
I am, and this isn't directed at you, routinely staggered by early judgments of players. Okre was a world beater apparently, based on a handful of games (he may well be), while Tonev who has started just two games, who probably doesn't speak a lick of English, is garbage.
I watched "the new Rooney" on Saturday for the first time and thought he was poor, noticeable only so far as his crossing was woeful. I cannot make any Judgments based on one game though, the same as its ridiculous to over egg or slate these players over five or six games.
Maybe I am more patient?
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I remember a poor run of home results under Graham Taylor. I believe he started booking the team into hotels on Friday nights and travelling to VP by coach to try to solve it.
You must be on about his first spell. His second spell actually contained our best home form since the 90s as we won 11/19 at Villa Park. But we only won once away so just avoided relegation.
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Norwich have out spent us in the previous two summer windows
I'm not sure who should be more ashamed of this - Norwich for wasting millions or Villa for being outspent by Norwich effing City.
I am quietly beginning to question myself about some of Lambert's signings.
It's a fans prerogative to do so.
I am, and this isn't directed at you, routinely staggered by early judgments of players. Okre was a world beater apparently, based on a handful of games (he may well be), while Tonev who has started just two games, who probably doesn't speak a lick of English, is garbage.
I watched "the new Rooney" on Saturday for the first time and thought he was poor, noticeable only so far as his crossing was woeful. I cannot make any Judgments based on one game though, the same as its ridiculous to over egg or slate these players over five or six games.
Maybe I am more patient?
Perhaps
But I wasn't restricting my concern to the signings he made this summer
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Norwich have out spent us in the previous two summer windows, without having to re-build an entire squad.
Lambert chose to rebuild an entire squad .
I have now editted my post above.
Lambert had no choice but to re-build a squad. He inherrited a side that was rotten to the core, failed to reach 40 points and was a hair away from being relegated
He also inherited a squad with players who had delivered in the past in the premiership
Lambert inherited a squad that cost huge multi millions - not a pile of shit .
He also inherited a squad which mostly needed improving, starting with two full backs, one of which at the moment can't get a club and the other who is playing in the Championship. Dunne and Collins were starting to show their age and Given wasn't as good as we all thought he would be. Three managers have tried and failed to get the best out Ireland and he probably won't pull up any trees at Stoke either. As for N'Zogbia, he's had two season's to show us what he can do and he's only done it in flashes.
No he didn't inherit a pile of shit, but it wasn't fantastic either.
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The place has never recovered from Bulldozing The Trinity.
The atmosphere is never as intense as it could get when you had a full VP and the noise seemed to stay in the Ground.
Now its a bit like a County Cricket match.
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Won 33 Drawn 36 Lost 31. (It is 100 games, so you know the percentages ! )
I am crap at working out percentages so can you please put this in percentages?
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The place has never recovered from Bulldozing The Trinity.
The atmosphere is never as intense as it could get when you had a full VP and the noise seemed to stay in the Ground.
Now its a bit like a County Cricket match.
You obviously have not been to a County cricket match lately?
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The place has never recovered from Bulldozing The Trinity.
The atmosphere is never as intense as it could get when you had a full VP and the noise seemed to stay in the Ground.
Now its a bit like a County Cricket match.
You obviously have not been to a County cricket match lately?
Guilty. :-[
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p
Won 33 Drawn 36 Lost 31. (It is 100 games, so you know the percentages ! )
I am crap at working out percentages so can you please put this in percentages?
I am sure you are joking but on the outside chance you are not just put a percentage sign after each figure.
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I went to Bears' game last season. It was a Wednesday. Nearest living thing to me were a loft of pigeons and the chap fielding at long on. All about 50 yards away.
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I am sure you are joking but on the outside chance you are not just put a percentage sign after each figure.
For the sake of diversity you have to take me seriously so thanks!!
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Norwich have out spent us in the previous two summer windows, without having to re-build an entire squad.
Lambert chose to rebuild an entire squad .
I have now editted my post above.
Lambert had no choice but to re-build a squad. He inherrited a side that was rotten to the core, failed to reach 40 points and was a hair away from being relegated
He also inherited a squad with players who had delivered in the past in the premiership
Lambert inherited a squad that cost huge multi millions - not a pile of shit .
He also inherited a squad which mostly needed improving, starting with two full backs, one of which at the moment can't get a club and the other who is playing in the Championship. Dunne and Collins were starting to show their age and Given wasn't as good as we all thought he would be. Three managers have tried and failed to get the best out Ireland and he probably won't pull up any trees at Stoke either. As for N'Zogbia, he's had two season's to show us what he can do and he's only done it in flashes.
No he didn't inherit a pile of shit, but it wasn't fantastic either.
Not fantastic no , but a midtable team at least if Mcleish hadn't been so negative.
You cannot buy 15 players all of whom have never played in the premiership and expect things to just gel , good teams are built on a blend of youth and experience - this team lacks leadership when we fall behind and the experience of players to help the younger lads when things are going wrong.
I firmly believe that with the squad inherited and the money he has had since taking over that we should comfortably be a midtable side .
That's not to say we won't be that this season but the home form of 4 defeats in 5 games has to be addressed fast - there are no easy games in this league and although we have played a lot of the top teams it will still be a hard battle against the likes of west ham and Cardiff .
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I suppose the main reason why he's mainly shopped abroad and in the lower leagues is because of cost. If he'd have gone out and brought let's say 8 premiership players, it would have cost us a fortune and not done the wage bill any good either.
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I suppose the main reason why he's mainly shopped abroad and in the lower leagues is because of cost. If he'd have gone out and brought let's say 8 premiership players, it would have cost us a fortune and not done the wage bill any good either.
Maybe but you could mix things and blend experience with younger foreign players - this team lacks leaders and experience when things go wrong.
I am not by any means calling for his head but he has made mistakes and I find sylla not being in the team quite baffling as we looked so much better last season with him in midfield .
The next 2 months will be interesting to see where we are at new year.
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we played some of the best stuff in ages at home and should have been well out of the picture before they scored. Two chances fell to our top forward who had he been fit and at his unsual sharpest would have been dispatched without issue, and irrespective of the incredible form of their keeper. Home form has been a concern for ages but in the PL if you don't take your chances home or away someone is going to punish you. It happened to be from a team that has started really well, built over many years to be consistent and solid with the added bonus of finally having a clinical striker. Had this display been as insipid a home display as some in recent memory I'd be quite concerned. But for the first time in what seems like ages we played as a home team should and should have won. We do that in the next few games, and play away like we know we can we'll be just fine.
We're a good team that now needs a win urgently to start believing that again. And I don't Benteke being so charitable again in the future.
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we played some of the best stuff in ages at home and should have been well out of the picture before they scored. Two chances fell to our top forward who had he been fit and at his unsual sharpest would have been dispatched without issue, and irrespective of the incredible form of their keeper. Home form has been a concern for ages but in the PL if you don't take your chances home or away someone is going to punish you. It happened to be from a team that has started really well, built over many years to be consistent and solid with the added bonus of finally having a clinical striker. Had this display been as insipid a home display as some in recent memory I'd be quite concerned. But for the first time in what seems like ages we played as a home team should and should have won. We do that in the next few games, and play away like we know we can we'll be just fine.
We're a good team that now needs a win urgently to start believing that again. And I don't Benteke being so charitable again in the future.
On our day we can be a good team but we are very inconsistent - often from one half to another.
We need to string a couple of wins together and try to build a run similar to how we ended last season - to help with that sylla must be in the team at west ham.
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Lamberts had 3 windows. In that time he certainly could have bought 2-3 more experienced players without necessarily breaking the bank. We've yet to really replace Stan Petrov's influence on the side. I love Stan too and he wasn't a world beater by any stretch of the imagination, but he was quite key to us in giving us a stability and calmness that could have been lacking way back when Gareth Barry left.
Likewise you look at how Dunne has started off at QPR. It would seem the legs haven't been quite as gone as we might have believed. He's been excellent for them thus far on the whole and has played every week. Honestly the reason why we were so desperately close to relegation under McLeish was in part losing Stan, Dunne and Bent all around a similar period. We went to complete shit (from mediocrity) from then on. Up until that point, Dunne had been having a vastly improved season on the Houllier one, and Petrov in a more advanced role was playing well. Bent had 9 goals in 22 games before getting injured to, and still ended up being our top scorer.
Retrospect is a wonderful thing of course. We need a bit of the influence, calmness and vision that a more experienced player can give you. That has to be sorted in Jan. It would help us no end.
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It's a dangerous game to play but he is trying to bring these young players up together so they gather that experience albeit through difficult times. I agree though, we could do with one or two more older, more established heads in the side. Our spine is coming together, the bits either side of it need help.
Richard Dunne remains an unsolved mystery. He's playing well at a lower level but there has to be something more than a player that never played a game for last season and this season you'd never know that happened.
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Dunne was outspoken in the press and highly critical of lambert for getting rid of all the experienced players , Ireland also had a run in with him by all accounts over tactics - could it be that dunne expressed his views to lambert and was given short shrift afterwards .
I'm not suggesting dunne wasn't injured but I recall bent saying he was fit and well last season at a time lambert had told press he was injured - lambert strikes me as someone who doesn't like people questioning his authority - a bit of a prickly character maybe .
Certainly he had run ins with the press when they questioned him at Norwich and the same happened with kendrick last season - he does not respond well to criticism.
Given and Hutton were also ostracised by him even though both still being paid on big wages .
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Richard Dunne remains an unsolved mystery. He's playing well at a lower level
Did anyone see the sitter that fatso put over the Burnley bar from 2 yards at Turf Moor on Saturday? Very funny.
Almost as funny as that coke bottle bouncing off Joey Barton's head (any other player and I wouldn't have laughed...).
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The Dunne thing is very strange indeed. Whether he might have been fit enough to play at some juncture last season remains to be seen. Maybe we'll hear the truth when Dunne gets round to releasing a book.
Having one or two older heads who can step in right now and deliver at this level would also help our younger players develop, possibly quicker. I just think that looking at the last game against Everton and the way Barry began dictating the pace of the game as soon as our legs started going in the second half, and the impact that Osman had. Sometimes you just can't go too far wrong with players who've been fairly consistent at this level for many years. We expend a lot of energy, often needlessly. A bit of composure, just something as simple as getting your head up and surveying your options, a bit of clever movement which comes from playing the game for years. That won them the game.
The fact it would seem Barry was offered to us is slightly galling too. You slap Barry in midfield with Delph and Sylla either side of him to provide the legs, and the midfield is already twice as good.
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Dunne was outspoken in the press and highly critical of lambert for getting rid of all the experienced players , Ireland also had a run in with him by all accounts over tactics - could it be that dunne expressed his views to lambert and was given short shrift afterwards .
I'm not suggesting dunne wasn't injured but I recall bent saying he was fit and well last season at a time lambert had told press he was injured - lambert strikes me as someone who doesn't like people questioning his authority - a bit of a prickly character maybe .
Certainly he had run ins with the press when they questioned him at Norwich and the same happened with kendrick last season - he does not respond well to criticism.
Given and Hutton were also ostracised by him even though both still being paid on big wages .
Maybe but at the end of the day Lambert's the boss and what he says goes.
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I just think Barry was offered to everyone because he was told we wasn't going to get much of a look in under Pellegrini. Because he played for us and was our captain that will always get more play in the media than had Stoke turned him down. Not saying we still wouldn't have benefitted from his influence but I think the story is a little overblown.
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Is there anything to back up these rumours of Barry being offered to us?
It seems odd as usually clubs enquire if a player is available - why would pellegrini offer him to a manager he doesn't know - and where did the rumour come from.
I saw Barry's interview where he expressed a desire to join everton because he didn't want to uproot his kids from their school in the north west but he never mentioned villa showing interest.
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Dunne was outspoken in the press and highly critical of lambert for getting rid of all the experienced players , Ireland also had a run in with him by all accounts over tactics - could it be that dunne expressed his views to lambert and was given short shrift afterwards .
I'm not suggesting dunne wasn't injured but I recall bent saying he was fit and well last season at a time lambert had told press he was injured - lambert strikes me as someone who doesn't like people questioning his authority - a bit of a prickly character maybe .
Certainly he had run ins with the press when they questioned him at Norwich and the same happened with kendrick last season - he does not respond well to criticism.
Given and Hutton were also ostracised by him even though both still being paid on big wages .
Maybe but at the end of the day Lambert's the boss and what he says goes.
Indeed. The trouble is he's a stubborn sod (for better and worse) and it seems that he doesn't like to have players with a reputation. Much as we could do with a bit more nous and experience I don't think he'll ever go that route.
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I just think Barry was offered to everyone because he was told we wasn't going to get much of a look in under Pellegrini. Because he played for us and was our captain that will always get more play in the media than had Stoke turned him down. Not saying we still wouldn't have benefitted from his influence but I think the story is a little overblown.
This maybe more likely , that city maybe sent a circular to all premier clubs of his availability is much more likely that offering him to villa .
From the interview I saw with him he made it clear everton was where he wanted to go for reasons stated earlier.
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It does seem that Lambert doesn't like or want older experienced players or those with a big reputation. It's a self-imposed limitation that is hampering the team. We're crying out for a Scott Parker/Gareth Barry/ Kevin Nolan type in the middle of the park, experienced, competent, and, with Parker and Nolan at least, with leadership qualities. As an interim, short term measure I don't think it would have broken the bank or upset his general philosophy. These leader types are often big personalities and perhaps Lambert doesn't welcome that type. It's odd when you think that the most successful manager of the last 25 years had the egos and temperaments of the likes of Keane, Ince, Beckham, Van Nistelrooy and Cantona to deal with, and without their ilk it's unlikely they'd have won as much.
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It does seem that Lambert doesn't like or want older experienced players or those with a big reputation. It's a self-imposed limitation that is hampering the team. We're crying out for a Scott Parker/Gareth Barry/ Kevin Nolan type in the middle of the park, experienced, competent, and, with Parker and Nolan at least, with leadership qualities. As an interim, short term measure I don't think it would have broken the bank or upset his general philosophy. These leader types are often big personalities and perhaps Lambert doesn't welcome that type. It's odd when you think that the most successful manager of the last 25 years had the egos and temperaments of the likes of Keane, Ince, Beckham, Van Nistelrooy and Cantona to deal with, and without their ilk it's unlikely they'd have won as much.
we had agreed a fee for Dempsey and Vlaar and KEA were both 27 when we bought them. I don't think that stat is entirely true. I think it's a fair statement for this summer though.
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Just a question regarding the poll - would tactics and manager not be the same thing to blame as it is the manager who chooses the tactics?
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It does seem that Lambert doesn't like or want older experienced players or those with a big reputation. It's a self-imposed limitation that is hampering the team. We're crying out for a Scott Parker/Gareth Barry/ Kevin Nolan type in the middle of the park, experienced, competent, and, with Parker and Nolan at least, with leadership qualities. As an interim, short term measure I don't think it would have broken the bank or upset his general philosophy. These leader types are often big personalities and perhaps Lambert doesn't welcome that type. It's odd when you think that the most successful manager of the last 25 years had the egos and temperaments of the likes of Keane, Ince, Beckham, Van Nistelrooy and Cantona to deal with, and without their ilk it's unlikely they'd have won as much.
we had agreed a fee for Dempsey and Vlaar and KEA were both 27 when we bought them. I don't think that stat is entirely true. I think it's a fair statement for this summer though.
He also said that he enquired about getting an experienced centre half in January but it didn't happen. Also, I don't think too many people would have complained had he brought Lukaku in who's 2 years younger than Benteke.
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Tell you what Dunne, Hutton and Ireland are Villa legends who protested on tactics etc by not giving 100% and Lambert is a complete usless muppett for not putting up with them.
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I think by and large Lambert has the right sort of tactics, just a couple of players short of being able to do it properly.
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We miss that attacking player, as everybody knows, who can work inbetween the opposition back four and midfield. He would, whoever he is, make a world of difference at home.
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We miss that attacking player, as everybody knows, who can work inbetween the opposition back four and midfield. He would, whoever he is, make a world of difference at home.
He would and it must be addressed in January, we've been waiting far too long.
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Tactics.
No creativity
No width
No nous
No patience with the ball, it's either 100 miles an hour or nothing
No Plan B other than lump another forward on and hoof
all of which above i expect the Manager to sort out
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Almost the same question as why are we so poor at home is why do so many players fail to give their best to the Villa.
I was thinking about this a few evenings back when I was watching Cameroon in the Africa play offs for Rio. Makoun was excellent, a driving box to box dynamo absolutely unrecognizable as the player who turned out for us. Maloney is another one. We were told he wanted to go back to Scotland but plays out of his skin for Wigan. Southgate, Ugo, Boateng, Craig Gardner, Gary Cahill, Dion Dublin, Martin Keown, Platt, Andy Gray, the list of those who would rather not have their names associated with Villa goes on. Even club greats like Mortimer and Yorke can only say a few fairly friendly word about us when they are paid to give a bit of Villa balance in a match panel. Are we an unfriendly club? Why do so many players turn nasty on us?
There are of course notable exceptions like Sid and Stanley Victor and Martin and Olof but you get the feeling that to many players we are easy to hate. Even Stylian chose to have his big charity game in green and white hoops not in a Villa shirt. Perhaps that is why performances at home are so bad. Perhaps the players do not particularly like us.
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Interesting point Navin. I have wondered this myself.
I have also wondered why the 'usual rules' never apply for villa. By that I mean, why is it that we rarely give a team a hiding after a rough result the way other teams do. Why is it that we are the club you want to play against if you are on a bad run of form/have a goal drought? Why is it that we so rarely go on an unbeaten run? I remember the 12 games unbeaten at the start of 1998/99 but few others. Even the likes of Wimbledon used to manage longer unbeaten runs back in the day.
I just wish I could see a determined villa team that never knew when it was beaten anywhere. I've seen good villa teams that were good when things were going well (Little, Atkinson, Gregory and MON), but these sides even were prone to inexplicable collapses (1998-1999 top at Christmas to failing to reach Europe and numerous years with MON when we collapsed in the spring). Even in O'Leary's good year we managed to be in the running for a top four finish with two games to go and got one point from Southampton and United to narrowly fail to even reach the Uefa Cup.
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Go through the squad and pick with confidence players that are good enough to play in a top half of the table side right now. I came up with five and one of them the manager won't pick for some reason. I f you are happy with a team that will just maintain prem status as long as there are the likes of Crystal Palace in the division fair enough.
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Go through the squad and pick with confidence players that are good enough to play in a top half of the table side right now. I came up with five and one of them the manager won't pick for some reason. I f you are happy with a team that will just maintain prem status as long as there are the likes of Crystal Palace in the division fair enough.
I don't think anyone's happy with it so I'd suggest you share the magic wand you have that will suddenly turn us in to champion contenders.
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On reflection, had Benteke and Weimann finished two of their three chances on Saturday, this thread wouldn't even be up and running. It's a fine line.
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My simple minded view is we haven't got very good players.
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exactly.
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Absolute rubbish.
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(http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/FBGBh70KzbQ/hqdefault.jpg)
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We miss that attacking player, as everybody knows, who can work inbetween the opposition back four and midfield. He would, whoever he is, make a world of difference at home.
Milner without a doubt.
Never going to happen though.
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My simple minded view is we haven't got very good players.
I'm increasingly inclined to agree with you
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My simple minded view is we haven't got very good players.
I'm increasingly inclined to agree with you
We've got some very good players (Benteke, Guzan), we've got a lot of average Premier League players, and we've got some poor players. We've probably got an average-to-below average Premier League team and squad (although I worry a lot at how we'd fair without Benteke!). We'll probably finish lower mid-table which is slightly better than last year. Lambert's record so far suggests that given time he'll improve us again next season.
Short of throwing a billion pounds at the squad I don't really see what some fans expect. Man City have spent over £500m and didn't win the league last year. Is chucking lots of money at the problem really the answer (and think really hard about the MON years before you answer that!)?
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My simple minded view is we haven't got very good players.
I'm increasingly inclined to agree with you
We've got some very good players (Benteke, Guzan), we've got a lot of average Premier League players, and we've got some poor players. We've probably got an average-to-below average Premier League team and squad (although I worry a lot at how we'd fair without Benteke!). We'll probably finish lower mid-table which is slightly better than last year. Lambert's record so far suggests that given time he'll improve us again next season.
Short of throwing a billion pounds at the squad I don't really see what some fans expect. Man City have spent over £500m and didn't win the league last year. Is chucking lots of money at the problem really the answer (and think really hard about the MON years before you answer that!)?
Adam, I think you've said exactly the same thing except in more detail, we haven't got very good players. I have no expectations any more and that's the killer. I used to expect us to finish top 6 minimum (and I'm not talking about the MON era, that is one small speck in my Villa following history and is not my baseline for reference purposes at all), now it's all about whether we can finish closer to 8th than 12th. And that's what it has come to more or less...
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On reflection, had Benteke and Weimann finished two of their three chances on Saturday, this thread wouldn't even be up and running. It's a fine line.
It's been coming for a while Des we've been crap at home for a long time
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It does seem that Lambert doesn't like or want older experienced players or those with a big reputation. It's a self-imposed limitation that is hampering the team. We're crying out for a Scott Parker/Gareth Barry/ Kevin Nolan type in the middle of the park, experienced, competent, and, with Parker and Nolan at least, with leadership qualities. As an interim, short term measure I don't think it would have broken the bank or upset his general philosophy. These leader types are often big personalities and perhaps Lambert doesn't welcome that type. It's odd when you think that the most successful manager of the last 25 years had the egos and temperaments of the likes of Keane, Ince, Beckham, Van Nistelrooy and Cantona to deal with, and without their ilk it's unlikely they'd have won as much.
we had agreed a fee for Dempsey and Vlaar and KEA were both 27 when we bought them. I don't think that stat is entirely true. I think it's a fair statement for this summer though.
Fair points, but we didn't get Dempsey, KEA is certainly not a leader, and Vlaar doesn't appear to be either. Plus neither Vlaar nor KEA had PL experience. Even with those two, the balance is still heavily towards young and inexperienced, and too much so in my opinion. It's like the opposite of MON who went too far the other way with his 29 year old journeymen policy only partially balanced by signings like Young, Milner and Delph. It would be nice, and I think more effective, to get a good blend and balance of both.
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I'm just wondering whether a signing like Arteta might make a big difference. Arsenal are kind of overrun with players at the moment. They've got so many in good form, particularly in midfield that his chances might become increasingly rare. Might be worth a punt and he could be good for us for a year or two. He's at Arsenal so his wages wouldn't be astronomical. A player like that we're crying out for. If not him there's probably a few others similar we might be able to get from Spain or Italy.
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My simple minded view is we haven't got very good players.
I'm increasingly inclined to agree with you
We've got some very good players (Benteke, Guzan), we've got a lot of average Premier League players, and we've got some poor players. We've probably got an average-to-below average Premier League team and squad (although I worry a lot at how we'd fair without Benteke!). We'll probably finish lower mid-table which is slightly better than last year. Lambert's record so far suggests that given time he'll improve us again next season.
Short of throwing a billion pounds at the squad I don't really see what some fans expect. Man City have spent over £500m and didn't win the league last year. Is chucking lots of money at the problem really the answer (and think really hard about the MON years before you answer that!)?
I agree in that if you look at our squad, other than Guzan and Benteke, how many of them would be coveted by other PL sides?
It doesn't have to be about Man City style money, though. I know it is early in the season, for example, but look how Southampton are doing. They've spent a fair bit, but not hugely.
I also do not think it is about spending money purely in terms of figures, it is about how it is spent. The problem with the MON era was not so much that we didn't spend enough - we did - but it was spent badly.
I know, I know, Young, Downing, Milner, good signings, sold for profit, but it wasn't really on the big players that he let us down, it was on the squad performers. We didn't build a strong enough squad, it was lop sided in that there were riches in some areas and next to nothing in others, and that squad that we did build, we didn't use. To make it worse, we then watched a lot of them sit out their huge contracts and walk away for free.
Spending money alone (at least to sub Man City levels) does not guarantee success, but not spending money pretty much guarantees you won't have success.
The summer disappointed me, because we just got in more players of the same level, rather than spend cutely where it was needed. An attacking midfielder, for example. I don't know if that Kiyotake was the answer, but I'd have rather we spent 12m on him than 12m on pretty much any three of the players we did sign.
I think Lambert is capable of improving us, but it has to be done at a reasonable rate. That doesn't mean jumping ten places from one year to the next, but it also doesn't mean finishing one place above the previous season. Fans would have a right to complain about that.
We've bought into the plan, but that is not a free pass for the club to just go on bobbing along around 16th or so. It has to get better than that, and most people will give him that chance, but there is really a very thin dividing line between the "building something long terms, young, hungry players" and becoming like a Stoke or a Wigan, just doing enough to stay in the division.
No club has a divine right to success, but I think Villa fans have a right to expect more than bobbing along.
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I'm just wondering whether a signing like Arteta might make a big difference. Arsenal are kind of overrun with players at the moment. They've got so many in good form, particularly in midfield that his chances might become increasingly rare. Might be worth a punt and he could be good for us for a year or two. He's at Arsenal so his wages wouldn't be astronomical. A player like that we're crying out for. If not him there's probably a few others similar we might be able to get from Spain or Italy.
One person in my head who might be useful for us is Zaha. Moyes has come out and said that he may be moved out on loan in January.
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I think most people thought we would finish around the 10th position mark this season after the way we ended playing last year. I think a lot of those people are now readjusting to a lower placed finish.
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I'm just wondering whether a signing like Arteta might make a big difference. Arsenal are kind of overrun with players at the moment. They've got so many in good form, particularly in midfield that his chances might become increasingly rare. Might be worth a punt and he could be good for us for a year or two. He's at Arsenal so his wages wouldn't be astronomical. A player like that we're crying out for. If not him there's probably a few others similar we might be able to get from Spain or Italy.
One person in my head who might be useful for us is Zaha. Moyes has come out and said that he may be moved out on loan in January.
I think he'd be a good option. Sign him on loan and buy a decent central midfielder and our attacking play improves.
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Slight tangent, but I actually feel sorry for Randy re home form.
If you look at the MON years, three top six finishes, but we were rarely particularly thrilling at home. Take those last three seasons, 57 home games, how many of those were what could be called exciting? I imagine Randy would have much preferred a return on his investment in terms of turning it on at home - and probably getting more bums on seats.
Similarly, that plethora of players in the £5m or so area that his money was spent on, many of them to hardly ever get used. I wonder if he was slightly disappointed that we didn't, instead, sign a significantly more expensive "bums on seats" style player.
For all his money that we spent, even taking into account finishing sixth three times, there wasn't much excitement generated in return.
Even our European "adventures" didn't generate much to get worked up about.
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Slight tangent, but I actually feel sorry for Randy re home form.
For all his money that we spent, even taking into account finishing sixth three times, there wasn't much excitement generated in return.
But Randy has never spent any money apparently.
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I think most people thought we would finish around the 10th position mark this season after the way we ended playing last year. I think a lot of those people are now readjusting to a lower placed finish.
We certainly haven't looked as dangerous in attack as last season. Home or away. We scored 6 goals against Man City and Arsenal with some degree of fortune too. Two penalties against Arsenal at the Emirates is lucky. They were stone wall, but you're still lucky if you get given one, let alone two in one of the top 4 grounds. Had Dowd or someone like him reffed the game, not a fucking chance. As for City, well, I still wonder how we score 3 against them (not that I'm complaining). A free kick like Bacunas, another 9 times out of 10 just rockets over the bar. We won't see a more perfect free kick for us maybe all season. Again we got the benefit of a call for KEA's goal that 9 times out of 10 will have been given to the "bigger" club.
But you take those two games out and things become a little clearer. We're struggling to score goals. We've not scored more than one goal a game in our other matches. Three games on the spin without scoring now too. A degree of misfortune last time out granted, but in the other games we certainly didn't create enough clear cut openings.
Any composure we appeared to have last season from feb-may appears to have gone. Our passing has gone to complete toss too. Largely because the main hub who made everything tick, Westwood has been so poor. He's not been the unruffled figure of composure he was last season. He's also not making himself available for the ball like he did. He's gone hiding a bit. Someone looks forward and there's no option. Last season they would always have that option to give it back to Westwood because he'd always be there. This season, not so. Inevitably if it does go back, it goes right back to Guzan who hoofs it forward. Once in a blue moon we'll get a goal like Weimanns against City, but most times it just gifts the ball back to the opposition.
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Another thing I have noticed is that, last year, and even this year at Arsenal, when we didn't have the ball, we'd work like fuck to get it back - harrying and closing down the opposition.
For most of this season, though, there doesn't seem to have been anything like enough of that. It is almost as if they've been reading the papers about how dangerous they are on the counter attack and have decided they don't really need to do that any more, they'll just let the opposition keep the ball and do what they want with it.
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Another thing I have noticed is that, last year, and even this year at Arsenal, when we didn't have the ball, we'd work like fuck to get it back - harrying and closing down the opposition.
For most of this season, though, there doesn't seem to have been anything like enough of that. It is almost as if they've been reading the papers about how dangerous they are on the counter attack and have decided they don't really need to do that any more, they'll just let the opposition keep the ball and do what they want with it.
It's frustrating. At the same time we do still expend a lot of energy though, without doing much with it. We kind of circle around their players as they pass it around us, without getting close enough. We're not pressing high enough up the pitch either (we tend to do most of our pressing in our own half, and invite pressure). One of Gabby's specialities has always been pressing high up the pitch. A defender thinks they have time, but his pace catches them a bit flat and then they'll often give away a throw in a good position, or sometimes a corner. It gets us some territory and the chance to have an attack. He's not been doing this so much, or chasing what looks like a lost cause but is turned into something.
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My simple minded view is we haven't got very good players.
I'm increasingly inclined to agree with you
We've got some very good players (Benteke, Guzan), we've got a lot of average Premier League players, and we've got some poor players. We've probably got an average-to-below average Premier League team and squad (although I worry a lot at how we'd fair without Benteke!). We'll probably finish lower mid-table which is slightly better than last year. Lambert's record so far suggests that given time he'll improve us again next season.
Short of throwing a billion pounds at the squad I don't really see what some fans expect. Man City have spent over £500m and didn't win the league last year. Is chucking lots of money at the problem really the answer (and think really hard about the MON years before you answer that!)?
Randy could spend £50m on the team and we may go from lower table to 7th or 8th - a rise of possible £5m in prize money .
Would you spend £50m to win £5m ?
I think if its £20m randy has put in this summer then that should be enough to keep us in lower midtable - perhaps he realise it would cost multi millions to try and challenge the top sides and has decided the aim is to stay in the league.
Newcastle fans are up on arms after Ashley said he's not worried about the cups and the aim is staying up - maybe we are similar .
Either way i believe randy has given lambert enough financial backing to comfortably finish midtable.
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My simple minded view is we haven't got very good players.
I'm increasingly inclined to agree with you
With respect that's quite a lazy view I think. SHA under TSM had a shite squad but they went unbeaten at home at the temple of doom for I think a year, Southampton are unbeaten at home this season, West Ham had a good home record last year and they were a newly promoted team and when Stoke came up in 2008 they won 10 home games that year.
You don't have to have great squads to be difficult to beat at home and win a few games. I'm not even asking to win at home every week as a) it's not possible and b) we win regularly away from home which many clubs in this league don't.
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End of last season we were playing well, scoring goals, winning crucial games and were actually good to watch, I enjoyed a lot of the games at the end of the season even if some like Chelsea at home we actually lost and others were excruating regarding actually getting the result given how close we were to going down. It just seems like the squad actually realised "oh fcuk we're probably going down, better start playing well" and hey presto we accumulated enough points to survive in the run in.
This season apart from the first two games, second half against City and first half on saturday I can't really say we're passing the ball that well at all which is disappointing as we were improving significantly in that respect from March onwards.
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Another thing I have noticed is that, last year, and even this year at Arsenal, when we didn't have the ball, we'd work like fuck to get it back - harrying and closing down the opposition.
Against Everton for the first ten minutes of the second half I made a point of mentioning to my mate how well we were pressing them and how much fitter we looked, then it seemed to dwindle before stopping altogether when Tonev was subbed.
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I'm just wondering whether a signing like Arteta might make a big difference. Arsenal are kind of overrun with players at the moment. They've got so many in good form, particularly in midfield that his chances might become increasingly rare. Might be worth a punt and he could be good for us for a year or two. He's at Arsenal so his wages wouldn't be astronomical. A player like that we're crying out for. If not him there's probably a few others similar we might be able to get from Spain or Italy.
One person in my head who might be useful for us is Zaha. Moyes has come out and said that he may be moved out on loan in January.
I was just about to post this myself, luckily I read your wisdom filled post beforehand otherwise I would have looked like a right plum.
I doubt he's on that much either going from palace (Andros's new contract only 16k? Ay?!) so subsidising wages shouldn't be an issue.
He's got a point to prove. Is he fancied as well? He's playing an 18 year old in Januzaj. So he can see how wonderful we are and move to us permanently.
I know a lot on here don't like loans to the mighty Villa. But we're not exactly that mighty anymore. Sacrilege!
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Conceding a goal just seems to knock the stuffing out of us at home, heads certainly dropped when Everton took the lead as there were still over 20 minutes remaining but we only created the Gabby chance and nothing when it went 2 nil.
It was like that against Spurs aswell, I was happy with how we played for the first 30 mins in that game but as soon as Spurs scored they controlled it from then on and we rarely looked like getting an equaliser bar the five minutes when Benteke came on.
Man. City is just looking like a fluke, we really need to be beating Cardiff and Sunderland in our next two home games. Can't help feeling one of those will be a frustrating draw. Not winning either isn't really an option, for Lambert as much as anybody.
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End of last season we were playing well, scoring goals, winning crucial games and were actually good to watch, I enjoyed a lot of the games at the end of the season even if some like Chelsea at home we actually lost and others were excruating regarding actually getting the result given how close we were to going down. It just seems like the squad actually realised "oh fcuk we're probably going down, better start playing well" and hey presto we accumulated enough points to survive in the run in.
This season apart from the first two games, second half against City and first half on saturday I can't really say we're passing the ball that well at all which is disappointing as we were improving significantly in that respect from March onwards.
A lot of that resurgence was helped by yacouba sylla.
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The trouble when we concede is that we don't have much experience. A bit of that nous that can help steady the ship and then get back into the game. Then most of our opposition will have few older heads in their side who can help keep their lead and keep our youngens expending energy in areas that won't hurt them. Spurs had the quality and the nous to do this. Everton likewise did. Soon as we went behind we never looked remotely like getting back into it. Then second killer goals put it comfortably beyond doubt.
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Another thing I have noticed is that, last year, and even this year at Arsenal, when we didn't have the ball, we'd work like fuck to get it back - harrying and closing down the opposition.
Against Everton for the first ten minutes of the second half I made a point of mentioning to my mate how well we were pressing them and how much fitter we looked, then it seemed to dwindle before stopping altogether when Tonev was subbed.
We are either not fit enough to play the high pressing game or Lambert tells them not to press sides in their own half. Either way, I think it is a game we should adopt at home to stop sides getting their comfy slippers on and making themselves at home at VP.
Admittedly we were more on the front foot against Everton but that worsened as the game went on. Against Liverpool, Spurs (twice) and Man City in the first half, we made life so easy for them.
Southampton play the high pressing game very effectively and are reaping the benefits but it needs players closing down in twos all over the pitch. It can be very effective if done well, particularly against better sides.
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Absolute rubbish.
Yes utter codswallop!
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Another thing I have noticed is that, last year, and even this year at Arsenal, when we didn't have the ball, we'd work like fuck to get it back - harrying and closing down the opposition.
For most of this season, though, there doesn't seem to have been anything like enough of that. It is almost as if they've been reading the papers about how dangerous they are on the counter attack and have decided they don't really need to do that any more, they'll just let the opposition keep the ball and do what they want with it.
This has infuriated me a fair bit too. Most of the time, they don't look too 'young and hungry' to me. I wonder if being so poor, so often is beginning to dent their self-belief at all?
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Absolute rubbish.
Yes utter codswallop!
Poppycock
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I see how this thread is going. Anything good we have done this season is down to pure luck and all bad stuff is due to Lambert's no good, we are just crap, we have too many young players, need and old head etc etc.
And oh yes we go to pieces when the other team scores, our heads drop as was when Arsenal, Newcastle and mancity twice took the lead?
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My simple minded view is we haven't got very good players.
I'm increasingly inclined to agree with you
With respect that's quite a lazy view I think. SHA under TSM had a shite squad but they went unbeaten at home at the temple of doom for I think a year, Southampton are unbeaten at home this season, West Ham had a good home record last year and they were a newly promoted team and when Stoke came up in 2008 they won 10 home games that year.
You don't have to have great squads to be difficult to beat at home and win a few games. I'm not even asking to win at home every week as a) it's not possible and b) we win regularly away from home which many clubs in this league don't.
Lambert has decided on a style of football he wants to play and has brought in players accordingly. The problem is the players aren't good enough to get us anywhere other than where we are. Nobody should be surprised at this, especially when you see the type of money other teams are throwing around.
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Another thing I have noticed is that, last year, and even this year at Arsenal, when we didn't have the ball, we'd work like fuck to get it back - harrying and closing down the opposition.
Against Everton for the first ten minutes of the second half I made a point of mentioning to my mate how well we were pressing them and how much fitter we looked, then it seemed to dwindle before stopping altogether when Tonev was subbed.
We are either not fit enough to play the high pressing game or Lambert tells them not to press sides in their own half. Either way, I think it is a game we should adopt at home to stop sides getting their comfy slippers on and making themselves at home at VP.
Admittedly we were more on the front foot against Everton but that worsened as the game went on. Against Liverpool, Spurs (twice) and Man City in the first half, we made life so easy for them.
Southampton play the high pressing game very effectively and are reaping the benefits but it needs players closing down in twos all over the pitch. It can be very effective if done well, particularly against better sides.
I remember last season we did it against Swansea early on and it worked very well. We had a routine 2-0 win which must have been the last comfortable league win we've had at VP and that was September 2012!
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I see how this thread is going. Anything good we have done this season is down to pure luck and all bad stuff is due to Lambert's no good, we are just crap, we have too many young players, need and old head etc etc.
And oh yes we go to pieces when the other team scores, our heads drop as was when Arsenal, Newcastle and mancity twice took the lead?
Newcastle doesn't really fit in with the example of those other two games. As for fighting back we've got a lot of spirit, more than we had under latter O Neill onwards. Unfortunately trying to attack at 100mph doesn't always work. Sheer force of will got us the win against City. Weimann just got his head down and ran straight through several City defenders until one of them fouled him. Subtle it was not. It worked granted. There was great fortune about the winning goal too.
But you can't expect it to work out that way all the time. Sometimes you've got to be a bit more considered in attack. That will require the addition to our game of a few elements, including experience, better technique (which will mean new players) and more than one game plan.
It's quite clear that we've got more issues that need addressing than aspects which are fine.
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I see how this thread is going. Anything good we have done this season is down to pure luck and all bad stuff is due to Lambert's no good, we are just crap, we have too many young players, need and old head etc etc.
And oh yes we go to pieces when the other team scores, our heads drop as was when Arsenal, Newcastle and mancity twice took the lead?
Now now affers , calm down - it's just a discussion not a witch- hunt against lambert.
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I see how this thread is going. Anything good we have done this season is down to pure luck and all bad stuff is due to Lambert's no good, we are just crap, we have too many young players, need and old head etc etc.
And oh yes we go to pieces when the other team scores, our heads drop as was when Arsenal, Newcastle and mancity twice took the lead?
Now now affers , calm down - it's just a discussion not a witch- hunt against lambert.
It's not a discussion, it's a series of bed-wetting ninnies flim-flamming their opinions from game to game.
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Another thing I have noticed is that, last year, and even this year at Arsenal, when we didn't have the ball, we'd work like fuck to get it back - harrying and closing down the opposition.
For most of this season, though, there doesn't seem to have been anything like enough of that. It is almost as if they've been reading the papers about how dangerous they are on the counter attack and have decided they don't really need to do that any more, they'll just let the opposition keep the ball and do what they want with it.
This has infuriated me a fair bit too. Most of the time, they don't look too 'young and hungry' to me. I wonder if being so poor, so often is beginning to dent their self-belief at all?
It was noted on MOTD I think how Southampton's player were constantly in the faces of their opponents in their opponents half, stopping them from building anything easily. As Paulie said they've spent a bit on players but not astronomical amounts, and their current success has a lot to do with the way the manager has them playing, working hard to get the ball back and then doing something creative with it. We do seem to have gone slack in the closing down department.
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Another thing I have noticed is that, last year, and even this year at Arsenal, when we didn't have the ball, we'd work like fuck to get it back - harrying and closing down the opposition.
For most of this season, though, there doesn't seem to have been anything like enough of that. It is almost as if they've been reading the papers about how dangerous they are on the counter attack and have decided they don't really need to do that any more, they'll just let the opposition keep the ball and do what they want with it.
This has infuriated me a fair bit too. Most of the time, they don't look too 'young and hungry' to me. I wonder if being so poor, so often is beginning to dent their self-belief at all?
It was noted on MOTD I think how Southampton's player were constantly in the faces of their opponents in their opponents half, stopping them from building anything easily. As Paulie said they've spent a bit on players but not astronomical amounts, and their current success has a lot to do with the way the manager has them playing, working hard to get the ball back and then doing something creative with it. We do seem to have gone slack in the closing down department.
Actually, I'm going to have to agree with this.
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Another thing I have noticed is that, last year, and even this year at Arsenal, when we didn't have the ball, we'd work like fuck to get it back - harrying and closing down the opposition.
For most of this season, though, there doesn't seem to have been anything like enough of that. It is almost as if they've been reading the papers about how dangerous they are on the counter attack and have decided they don't really need to do that any more, they'll just let the opposition keep the ball and do what they want with it.
It's frustrating. At the same time we do still expend a lot of energy though, without doing much with it. We kind of circle around their players as they pass it around us, without getting close enough. We're not pressing high enough up the pitch either (we tend to do most of our pressing in our own half, and invite pressure). One of Gabby's specialities has always been pressing high up the pitch. A defender thinks they have time, but his pace catches them a bit flat and then they'll often give away a throw in a good position, or sometimes a corner. It gets us some territory and the chance to have an attack. He's not been doing this so much, or chasing what looks like a lost cause but is turned into something.
I said this on here in the after match thread for Spurs. What really pee,d me off was when Lloris got the ball Gabby immediately ran back into our half of the field to Mark their full back!!! FFS! That meant that their central defenders had all the time in the world to collect the ball, turn and play a pass.
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Blaming our victories on an imaginery force stretches creduility.
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I see how this thread is going. Anything good we have done this season is down to pure luck and all bad stuff is due to Lambert's no good, we are just crap, we have too many young players, need and old head etc etc.
And oh yes we go to pieces when the other team scores, our heads drop as was when Arsenal, Newcastle and mancity twice took the lead?
Now now affers , calm down - it's just a discussion not a witch- hunt against lambert.
It's not a discussion, it's a series of bed-wetting ninnies flim-flamming their opinions from game to game.
Is the right answer.
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I see how this thread is going. Anything good we have done this season is down to pure luck and all bad stuff is due to Lambert's no good, we are just crap, we have too many young players, need and old head etc etc.
And oh yes we go to pieces when the other team scores, our heads drop as was when Arsenal, Newcastle and mancity twice took the lead?
Now now affers , calm down - it's just a discussion not a witch- hunt against lambert.
It's not a discussion, it's a series of bed-wetting ninnies flim-flamming their opinions from game to game.
Is the right answer.
There's the pot calling the kettle black indeed ;)
Four home defeats in 5 and a horrific home record in recent years - surely those fans are entitled to voice concern - not one person on this forum this season has called for lamberts head that I know of .
There have been some excellent posts on this thread on all sides - we are all in this together and we shall all come through it together .
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I see how this thread is going. Anything good we have done this season is down to pure luck and all bad stuff is due to Lambert's no good, we are just crap, we have too many young players, need and old head etc etc.
And oh yes we go to pieces when the other team scores, our heads drop as was when Arsenal, Newcastle and mancity twice took the lead?
Now now affers , calm down - it's just a discussion not a witch- hunt against lambert.
It's not a discussion, it's a series of bed-wetting ninnies flim-flamming their opinions from game to game.
Is the right answer.
There's the pot calling the kettle black indeed ;)
Indeed.
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I see how this thread is going. Anything good we have done this season is down to pure luck and all bad stuff is due to Lambert's no good, we are just crap, we have too many young players, need and old head etc etc.
And oh yes we go to pieces when the other team scores, our heads drop as was when Arsenal, Newcastle and mancity twice took the lead?
Now now affers , calm down - it's just a discussion not a witch- hunt against lambert.
It's not a discussion, it's a series of bed-wetting ninnies flim-flamming their opinions from game to game.
Is the right answer.
There's the pot calling the kettle black indeed ;)
Four home defeats in 5 and a horrific home record in recent years - surely those fans are entitled to voice concern - not one person on this forum this season has called for lamberts head that I know of .
There have been some excellent posts on this thread on all sides - we are all in this together and we shall all come through it together .
Lovely edit as always easts.
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Added to the above post rather than make a new one - apologies.
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The way I see it:
Liverpool - expected to lose that as a fan (although I hope he players didn't have that attitude).
Tottenham - as above.
Man City - expected to lose but won.
Everton - should have won from the chances we had but ballsed it up.
Newcastle - for the love of whatever, why did we have to lose this one?
So from that I deduce that we are only one home win behind what may have been expected.
Cardiff and Sunderland up next - expecting to see six points. Anything less and I think that would have been the appropriate time to open this thread.
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I was listening to Danny Mills last night and he was saying that Steve McLaren used to tell a select few players (depending on their position) to get stuck in early on and press hard, and push a couple of the forwards to have an early shot, often speculative. His logic was that this got the crowd going and maintained the noise / momentum that many crowds have at kick off.
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Where is Schteve managing now?
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Where is Schteve managing now?
Derby isn't it ?
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Almost the same question as why are we so poor at home is why do so many players fail to give their best to the Villa.
I was thinking about this a few evenings back when I was watching Cameroon in the Africa play offs for Rio. Makoun was excellent, a driving box to box dynamo absolutely unrecognizable as the player who turned out for us. Maloney is another one. We were told he wanted to go back to Scotland but plays out of his skin for Wigan. Southgate, Ugo, Boateng, Craig Gardner, Gary Cahill, Dion Dublin, Martin Keown, Platt, Andy Gray, the list of those who would rather not have their names associated with Villa goes on. Even club greats like Mortimer and Yorke can only say a few fairly friendly word about us when they are paid to give a bit of Villa balance in a match panel. Are we an unfriendly club? Why do so many players turn nasty on us?
There are of course notable exceptions like Sid and Stanley Victor and Martin and Olof but you get the feeling that to many players we are easy to hate. Even Stylian chose to have his big charity game in green and white hoops not in a Villa shirt. Perhaps that is why performances at home are so bad. Perhaps the players do not particularly like us.
I dunno.
Townsend was a popular Chelsea player and captain, yet he still talks about the Villa as we and us. Rambo played for one of the biggest clubs in Scotland, but to listen to him, Villa seems to be his club.
Yorke (in his defence) does seem fond of the Villa, but players like Ray Houghton, Mark Bosnich, Andy Gray and a few others seem to gloss over their time at the club very quickly.
Some of it clearly depends on the success they've had elsewhere. But maybe we're over analysing the thing. Maybe Bosnich, Houghton, Gray and co are just twats.
My simple minded view is we haven't got very good players.
I'm increasingly inclined to agree with you
We've got some very good players (Benteke, Guzan), we've got a lot of average Premier League players, and we've got some poor players. We've probably got an average-to-below average Premier League team and squad (although I worry a lot at how we'd fair without Benteke!). We'll probably finish lower mid-table which is slightly better than last year. Lambert's record so far suggests that given time he'll improve us again next season.
Short of throwing a billion pounds at the squad I don't really see what some fans expect. Man City have spent over £500m and didn't win the league last year. Is chucking lots of money at the problem really the answer (and think really hard about the MON years before you answer that!)?
Adam, I think you've said exactly the same thing except in more detail, we haven't got very good players. I have no expectations any more and that's the killer. I used to expect us to finish top 6 minimum (and I'm not talking about the MON era, that is one small speck in my Villa following history and is not my baseline for reference purposes at all), now it's all about whether we can finish closer to 8th than 12th. And that's what it has come to more or less...
It's sad to think that our status is probably lower now than it was in 2005, and I don't recall that era with particular fondness.
Martin Samuel - by no means pro Villa- wrote a piece at the end of the 04/05 campaign saying no club in the topflight has more potential to soar up the table than Aston Villla. This was pre Lerner takeover, remember. When it wasn't clear how much money (if any) we'd be likely to spend.
During that same season, the then England manager advised a (fake) Sheikh to buy Aston Villa, and install him as manager.
We have always been capable of gross underachievment, and we've been no strangers to a mid table finish or even an occasional relegation battle post WWII. But there was a feeling -amongst Villa fans and people in the game at a whole- that we were one of the few sides who could break the monopoly at the top, with a bit of forward momentum.
I don't think that holds anymore.
I'm reluctant to criticise RL too much, as the sums he has put into the club far outweigh his predecessor. But has the overall strategy been correct? If our status is lower now than when he took over then no, whichever way you want to cut it.
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Randy gave it his best shot under mon and came close to the top 4 , however there has been the financial crash during his reign plus a divorce settlement, which will have taken a lot from the coffers.
He realises that now to reach the top 4 would take huge investment with no guarantee of success , I cannot blame him if he is content for the club to around the middle of the premiership in all fairness.
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Randy gave it his best shit under mon.
Open goal, Eastie!
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Randy gave it his best shit under mon.
Open goal, Eastie!
Predictive text dc5 ;)
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Where is Schteve managing now?
Derby isn't it ?
Exactly.
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Almost the same question as why are we so poor at home is why do so many players fail to give their best to the Villa.
I was thinking about this a few evenings back when I was watching Cameroon in the Africa play offs for Rio. Makoun was excellent, a driving box to box dynamo absolutely unrecognizable as the player who turned out for us. Maloney is another one. We were told he wanted to go back to Scotland but plays out of his skin for Wigan. Southgate, Ugo, Boateng, Craig Gardner, Gary Cahill, Dion Dublin, Martin Keown, Platt, Andy Gray, the list of those who would rather not have their names associated with Villa goes on. Even club greats like Mortimer and Yorke can only say a few fairly friendly word about us when they are paid to give a bit of Villa balance in a match panel. Are we an unfriendly club? Why do so many players turn nasty on us?
There are of course notable exceptions like Sid and Stanley Victor and Martin and Olof but you get the feeling that to many players we are easy to hate. Even Stylian chose to have his big charity game in green and white hoops not in a Villa shirt. Perhaps that is why performances at home are so bad. Perhaps the players do not particularly like us.
That's totally wrong. Most of those players left for one reason or another but none of them, with the possible exception of Platt, have been anything other than complimentary to the club and he's always been like that. Stiliyan had his game at Celtic because they organised it; he'd have one at Villa if we did the same. Others will talk endlessly about the Villa, they play for the ex-players teams and the number of our former players who either remained or moved back to the region once they retired says everything about their feelings.
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Almost the same question as why are we so poor at home is why do so many players fail to give their best to the Villa.
I was thinking about this a few evenings back when I was watching Cameroon in the Africa play offs for Rio. Makoun was excellent, a driving box to box dynamo absolutely unrecognizable as the player who turned out for us. Maloney is another one. We were told he wanted to go back to Scotland but plays out of his skin for Wigan. Southgate, Ugo, Boateng, Craig Gardner, Gary Cahill, Dion Dublin, Martin Keown, Platt, Andy Gray, the list of those who would rather not have their names associated with Villa goes on. Even club greats like Mortimer and Yorke can only say a few fairly friendly word about us when they are paid to give a bit of Villa balance in a match panel. Are we an unfriendly club? Why do so many players turn nasty on us?
There are of course notable exceptions like Sid and Stanley Victor and Martin and Olof but you get the feeling that to many players we are easy to hate. Even Stylian chose to have his big charity game in green and white hoops not in a Villa shirt. Perhaps that is why performances at home are so bad. Perhaps the players do not particularly like us.
That's totally wrong. Most of those players left for one reason or another but none of them, with the possible exception of Platt, have been anything other than complimentary to the club and he's always been like that. Stiliyan had his game at Celtic because they organised it; he'd have one at Villa if we did the same. Others will talk endlessly about the Villa, they play for the ex-players teams and the number of our former players who either remained or moved back to the region once they retired says everything about their feelings.
I'm too young to know anything about Platt playing for us, but has he 'bad mouthed' us since leaving? Just curious, I simply don't like his face, but any other reason to think he is a bell end I will accept with open arms.
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Almost the same question as why are we so poor at home is why do so many players fail to give their best to the Villa.
I was thinking about this a few evenings back when I was watching Cameroon in the Africa play offs for Rio. Makoun was excellent, a driving box to box dynamo absolutely unrecognizable as the player who turned out for us. Maloney is another one. We were told he wanted to go back to Scotland but plays out of his skin for Wigan. Southgate, Ugo, Boateng, Craig Gardner, Gary Cahill, Dion Dublin, Martin Keown, Platt, Andy Gray, the list of those who would rather not have their names associated with Villa goes on. Even club greats like Mortimer and Yorke can only say a few fairly friendly word about us when they are paid to give a bit of Villa balance in a match panel. Are we an unfriendly club? Why do so many players turn nasty on us?
There are of course notable exceptions like Sid and Stanley Victor and Martin and Olof but you get the feeling that to many players we are easy to hate. Even Stylian chose to have his big charity game in green and white hoops not in a Villa shirt. Perhaps that is why performances at home are so bad. Perhaps the players do not particularly like us.
That's totally wrong. Most of those players left for one reason or another but none of them, with the possible exception of Platt, have been anything other than complimentary to the club and he's always been like that. Stiliyan had his game at Celtic because they organised it; he'd have one at Villa if we did the same. Others will talk endlessly about the Villa, they play for the ex-players teams and the number of our former players who either remained or moved back to the region once they retired says everything about their feelings.
I'm too young to know anything about Platt playing for us, but has he 'bad mouthed' us since leaving? Just curious, I simply don't like his face, but any other reason to think he is a bell end I will accept with open arms.
He hasn't said anything, he just, well, hasn't said anything.
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I don't remember Platt ever bad mouthing us, he just doesn't sing our praises at every opportunity like other ex players do.
Still one of my favourite Villa players ever though.
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Almost the same question as why are we so poor at home is why do so many players fail to give their best to the Villa.
I was thinking about this a few evenings back when I was watching Cameroon in the Africa play offs for Rio. Makoun was excellent, a driving box to box dynamo absolutely unrecognizable as the player who turned out for us. Maloney is another one. We were told he wanted to go back to Scotland but plays out of his skin for Wigan. Southgate, Ugo, Boateng, Craig Gardner, Gary Cahill, Dion Dublin, Martin Keown, Platt, Andy Gray, the list of those who would rather not have their names associated with Villa goes on. Even club greats like Mortimer and Yorke can only say a few fairly friendly word about us when they are paid to give a bit of Villa balance in a match panel. Are we an unfriendly club? Why do so many players turn nasty on us?
There are of course notable exceptions like Sid and Stanley Victor and Martin and Olof but you get the feeling that to many players we are easy to hate. Even Stylian chose to have his big charity game in green and white hoops not in a Villa shirt. Perhaps that is why performances at home are so bad. Perhaps the players do not particularly like us.
That's totally wrong. Most of those players left for one reason or another but none of them, with the possible exception of Platt, have been anything other than complimentary to the club and he's always been like that. Stiliyan had his game at Celtic because they organised it; he'd have one at Villa if we did the same. Others will talk endlessly about the Villa, they play for the ex-players teams and the number of our former players who either remained or moved back to the region once they retired says everything about their feelings.
I'm too young to know anything about Platt playing for us, but has he 'bad mouthed' us since leaving? Just curious, I simply don't like his face, but any other reason to think he is a bell end I will accept with open arms.
He hasn't said anything, he just, well, hasn't said anything.
Ooooh right. Like an ex you never talk about. Bell end. I can't stand Mancini, so he is guilty by association to me.
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Platt is a strange one , we took him from lowly Crewe and graham Taylor played a huge part in helping him become the player he was - he left us as a World Cup star and has barely mentioned his time here ever since - ungrateful sod.
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Platt never had a good word to say about us when he used to do Sky punditry years ago. What I found amusing was he couldn't stop going on about how wonderful Man. United were despite them releasing him at 16. I wonder if he changed that viewpoint when Man. City got him to work with Mancini?
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Spoonface hasn't come out and said we're all a bunch of cxnts, if that's what you mean. And that he hated every moment of his time at VP. But whenever he did co-commentary work in the past, it sounded like a chore to him just to discuss us. Getting players names wrong and sounding years behind the times.
He'd come out with the kind of lazy, half arsed comments that you'd expect from Lawro, who clearly doesn't watch us (or any other team apart from the Redscouse) for more than 10 minutes. It's not compulsory, but as an ex player who enjoyed a relatively successful period at the club, it might be hoped he'd have a bit of affinity for the place. And might have a vague idea about how we play and who our current players are, if we're really pushing the boat out.
Publicly encouraging Yorke and Barry to move probably hasn't done him too many favours either.
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Platt never had a good word to say about us when he used to do Sky punditry years ago. What I found amusing was he couldn't stop going on about how wonderful Man. United were despite them releasing him at 16. I wonder if he changed that viewpoint when Man. City got him to work with Mancini?
I met a Crewe steward once who said he was like that when he left them - as soon as he signed for Villa he forgot all about where he'd left.
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This thread seems to underscore the acceptance that we will never be a top club again. A job of work seems to have been done on all of us to lower our expectations and we have gone along with it.
Even in the darkest days of the Third Division we all believed that Villa would rise again and we did. When Ellis went and Lerner took over we believed Villa would rise again and until Stoke it looked on the cards that we would.
At some point the owner and the board decided that the books had to be balanced and that brought with it mid table Premiership survival and that is what we were sold. The amazing thing is that we seem to have bought it without demur.
If I were given the choice of re-living my years of Villa support and instead of having relegation into the third tier as a lowest point and the winning of the European Cup as the highest I could have seventy years of first tier tedious mediocrity, it would be a no brainer. I would choose the former without a moment's hesitation.
Our collective belief that Aston Villa will always rise again has been replaced with wet dreams of Qatari billionaire buyers.
I have often mused on the exact point at which the club lost its way. It may have been the instant MON flounced out but I tend to think it was the moment the owner became pissed off with the board getting pelters for not finding a replacement for Houllier and took his private jet to Corsica to sign up TSM effectively to bin all dreams of greatness in favour of controlled income and expenditure. Just my view of things.
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He was a dour pundit too - one of the worst I've seen .
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This thread seems to underscore the acceptance that we will never be a top club again. A job of work seems to have been done on all of us to lower our expectations and we have gone along with it.
Even in the darkest days of the Third Division we all believed that Villa would rise again and we did. When Ellis went and Lerner took over we believed Villa would rise again and until Stoke it looked on the cards that we would.
At some point the owner and the board decided that the books had to be balanced and that brought with it mid table Premiership survival and that is what we were sold. The amazing thing is that we seem to have bought it without demur.
If I were given the choice of re-living my years of Villa support and instead of having relegation into the third tier as a lowest point and the winning of the European Cup as the highest I could have seventy years of first tier tedious mediocrity, it would be a no brainer. I would choose the former without a moment's hesitation.
Our collective belief that Aston Villa will always rise again has been replaced with wet dreams of Qatari billionaire buyers.
I have often mused on the exact point at which the club lost its way. It may have been the instant MON flounced out but I tend to think it was the moment the owner became pissed off with the board getting pelters for not finding a replacement for Houllier and took his private jet to Corsica to sign up TSM effectively to bin all dreams of greatness in favour of controlled income and expenditure. Just my view of things.
Like i said randy doesnt have a bottomless pot of cash , he has spent fortunes since arriving , sadly we got close to the top 4 but not quite there.
I cannot blame him for tightening his belt - we are in the same boat as many clubs , and midtable is where it's at for the foreseeable future.
At least we have our memories of glorious triumphs and trophies , that's more than most have .
Regarding lowering expectations , sadly the game has changed and the rich get richer .
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This thread seems to underscore the acceptance that we will never be a top club again. A job of work seems to have been done on all of us to lower our expectations and we have gone along with it.
Even in the darkest days of the Third Division we all believed that Villa would rise again and we did. When Ellis went and Lerner took over we believed Villa would rise again and until Stoke it looked on the cards that we would.
At some point the owner and the board decided that the books had to be balanced and that brought with it mid table Premiership survival and that is what we were sold. The amazing thing is that we seem to have bought it without demur.
If I were given the choice of re-living my years of Villa support and instead of having relegation into the third tier as a lowest point and the winning of the European Cup as the highest I could have seventy years of first tier tedious mediocrity, it would be a no brainer. I would choose the former without a moment's hesitation.
Our collective belief that Aston Villa will always rise again has been replaced with wet dreams of Qatari billionaire buyers.
I have often mused on the exact point at which the club lost its way. It may have been the instant MON flounced out but I tend to think it was the moment the owner became pissed off with the board getting pelters for not finding a replacement for Houllier and took his private jet to Corsica to sign up TSM effectively to bin all dreams of greatness in favour of controlled income and expenditure. Just my view of things.
The Marlon F Harewood signing for me.
Not the owers fault (that particular signing) but the first illustration that the guy making football decisions might not be all he's cracked up to be.
We went on to have a decent season, of course.
But looking back, that two year period (2007-09) was our window of opportunity. Had we frontloaded the spending then (rather than an average spread of circa £20 million per year over 6 years) or acquired more players that got the rest of the country talking, we might have gained enough of an advantage to stay ahead of the pack.
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Where did it all go wrong ? For me there are 2 key moments of mons reign that were pivotal-
1- The fiasco in Moscow - to play so many games to reach that stage and then put out a weak side was unforgivable , and the following draw with stoke only added to the distress.
2- The decision by dowd not to send off vidic - had we won that final it would have been silverware and European qualification and we may well have finished the season with a flourish .
Just to add also - the signing of heskey rather than bent also contributed.
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When a lad as staunch as you are eastie accepts the status quo, I know my suspicions are well founded.
I do not fault Lerner at all. I think any normal billionaire would have done the same in his position. It is not his cash I want Villa to have, it is his heart.
I do not accept that football greatness can be bought with money alone. Tiny little nations with GDPs less than a US state have forged national sides to hold their own at the highest level, often from scratch.
Ten years ago if you had said that Britain would have back to back winners of the Tour de France within the decade you would have been laughed at. Yes cycling has had a big injection of money but the real sea change in British bike riding has been planning and self belief.
Villa will rise again one day but it will not be done surfing a wave of oil money, it will happen because we believe it will happen.
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I hope you are right Brian , as we all want the club to be successful - the game has changed for the worse in recent years and is not the game i once loved - it is now too much about money and players rarely have the passion and loyalty for clubs we used to take for granted.
I share your hopes and wishes for the future but I think it may be a long time before they come to fruition - In some ways I wish the sky 5 would fuck off and form a European league so we can compete for England's finest trophies again .
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If I were given the choice of re-living my years of Villa support and instead of having relegation into the third tier as a lowest point and the winning of the European Cup as the highest I could have seventy years of first tier tedious mediocrity, it would be a no brainer. I would choose the former without a moment's hesitation.
Yes same here. Started right at the bottom when we were relegated into the third. Had this undeniable belief that we were a great club and and we would rise. Rise we did. Winning 2 league cups and culminating in the Championship 81 and Champion's cup a year later. So why is it that a great football club from a big city with great support is no longer competing with the best?
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If I were given the choice of re-living my years of Villa support and instead of having relegation into the third tier as a lowest point and the winning of the European Cup as the highest I could have seventy years of first tier tedious mediocrity, it would be a no brainer. I would choose the former without a moment's hesitation.
Yes same here. Started right at the bottom when we were relegated into the third. Had this undeniable belief that we were a great club and and we would rise. Rise we did. Winning 2 league cups and culminating in the Championship 81 and Champion's cup a year later. So why is it that a great football club from a big city with great support is no longer competing with the best?
Money is a huge reason - look at the incomes of those sides and owners - the champions league is a cash magnet and the best players want to play there.
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We need an old school captain who demands respect from team-mates and opponents alike, he needs to be a reducer of the Stuart Pearce ilk.
We also need strikers who have an understanding of the game, not headless chickens like Weimann with all the composure of a stand up comedian on his first night.
We have too many young players staring into the headlights like startled rabbits, adequate players but only that. Lambert is accountable, he should have replaced Petrov with someone of similar experience.
Too many players seem bewildered, unrehearsed, lacking in nouse, enthusiastic but naive. Baker, Weimann, Westwood. It's not beyond hope, they can take heart from Delph who's maturing nicely (apart from his pathetic quest for yellow card record breaking status, most of his bookings are just brainless).
We need blood and snotters, experienced pros and composure.
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I'm too young to know anything about Platt playing for us, but has he 'bad mouthed' us since leaving? Just curious, I simply don't like his face, but any other reason to think he is a bell end I will accept with open arms.
I hate him I really do. At every opportunity he has been totally derogatory about the club who made him into a great player. The fact that he achieved fuck all after leaving us has barely dawned on him. He is a complete wanker who can piss off to the the other end of universe for all I care.
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I am right eastie. We are living through a phase when the belief that money can buy anything is regarded as indisputable. Money does not generate success, it generates failure ultimately. Man City are the lab rats in this test. They have unlimited money. Has the level of their success been in direct proportion to the money they have spent? No. Are their fans any happier? No. Can they beat a screwed up bunch of kids from B6? No. Will their arab owners grow bored with them and buy Red Bull Racing? Probably. What about that pillar of football history and tradition Chelsea? Well, the Communists got over 25% of the popular vote in a massively rigged election. Let them get a whiff of a return to power in Russia and the oligarchs will all be living with their bullion under the pavements of Zurich. Man U? A bubble of debt waiting to go pop.
Kids with no shoes on their feet playing with a rag ball in South Africa is the future of football. Sky and their ilk are fleas on the back of football. Nothing more.
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I am right eastie. We are living through a phase when the belief that money can buy anything is regarded as indisputable. Money does not generate success, it generates failure ultimately. Man City are the lab rats in this test. They have unlimited money. Has the level of their success been in direct proportion to the money they have spent? No. Are their fans any happier? No. Can they beat a screwed up bunch of kids from B6? No. Will their arab owners grow bored with them and buy Red Bull Racing? Probably. What about that pillar of football history and tradition Chelsea? Well, the Communists got over 25% of the popular vote in a massively rigged election. Let them get a whiff of a return to power in Russia and the oligarchs will all be living with their bullion under the pavements of Zurich. Man U? A bubble of debt waiting to go pop.
Kids with no shoes on their feet playing with a rag ball in South Africa is the future of football. Sky and their ilk are fleas on the back of football. Nothing more.
Good post indeed , can almost feel your passion and heart as you write - truly excellent.
All reigns come to an end as Man U are finding out now , and Liverpool found after dalglish departed.
The day avramovich leaves Chelsea will be a day for real football fans to rejoice.
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Bravo. NRJ your pst gives me hope.
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I'm too young to know anything about Platt playing for us, but has he 'bad mouthed' us since leaving? Just curious, I simply don't like his face, but any other reason to think he is a bell end I will accept with open arms.
I hate him I really do. At every opportunity he has been totally derogatory about the club who made him into a great player. The fact that he achieved fuck all after leaving us has barely dawned on him. He is a complete wanker who can piss off to the the other end of universe for all I care.
Won the league with Arsenal in 98 I think. ;)
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I hope you are right Brian , as we all want the club to be successful - the game has changed for the worse in recent years and is not the game i once loved - it is now too much about money and players rarely have the passion and loyalty for clubs we used to take for granted.
I share your hopes and wishes for the future but I think it may be a long time before they come to fruition - In some ways I wish the sky 5 would fuck off and form a European league so we can compete for England's finest trophies again .
eastie, that is one of the best posts for a long time. The top 4-5 are miles infront of the rest of us. Put them in a European league, increase promotion from the lower leagues. But , unfortunately pal, that would not do the Devil, that is Sky, sorry , Devils, BT Sport aswell, any good with their plan to take over football and turn it into a sterile gathering of nobody's, with no clue of history or anything else. Muted support from the stadium, no standing, no expressing yourself with passion for your team, fear of ejection from the ground. We will just sit there and clap and go home happy, i suppose.
Me, i want safe standing to be introduced to all clubs in the English Premier League. I want atmosphere, singing, jumping around a bit, safely.
Amfy is on a crusade, and a fine crusade it is, to at least get this listened to. Long may she continue, but not to long. We should be able to stand in designated areas of every stadium, safe standing is the way forward.
When the Holte was a standing area away teams would shit themselves at the sheer magnitude of Villa fans behind that end, although it was a bit empty for a few years, but you get what i am trying to say.
We need that atmosphere back at VP. Amfy and her helpers are well on the way to trying to change things.
Lower Holte should be safe standing, lower North should be safe standing. The atmosphere then would scare the hell out of every visiting team. The way it should be. Villa park should be an absolute fortress, at the moment it is not. It has become a sterile, mobile phone using, 4G using theatre of wanabee Villa supporters.
I know we come from the old days but i still feel that we have been forgotten. Proper fans who have spent thousands, over the years, supporting our club, only to be forgotten, because of the Sky Era.
Just my point of view you understand.
Go Amfy, get some atmosphere back into our stadium. All the best to every Villa fan on the planet. 3 lagers, 3 large bacardi's and to finish, a lion bar, and some pickled onion Monster Munch.
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Good post too dan, Amfy has been superb in her quest and worked hard - she deserves to succeed .
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I think Lerners signing of a manager who managed to get our cross city rivals relegated...twice, ignoring the uproar and disbelief it would cause among supporters finally lost any hope i had that under his stewardship we would become a strong club on the field.
I wonder why Randy is still here a stay away owner, is it that he cannot find a buyer? Money aside is there something about us, our city, our accent, our way of always looking at the dark side, that prevents success?
We have a fantastic ground a solid membership base with huge potential to grow, everything it seems for any ambitious owner or manager to take us forward. I reckon you could write a thesis on Villa's continual failure.
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Won the league with Arsenal in 98 I think. ;)
Don't care. He was a fringe player made 11 appearances all season for them.
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I think Lerners signing of a manager who managed to get our cross city rivals relegated...twice, ignoring the uproar and disbelief it would cause among supporters finally lost any hope i had that under his stewardship we would become a strong club on the field.
I wonder why Randy is still here a stay away owner, is it that he cannot find a buyer? Money aside is there something about us, our city, our accent, our way of always looking at the dark side, that prevents success?
We have a fantastic ground a solid membership base with huge potential to grow, everything it seems for any ambitious owner or manager to take us forward. I reckon you could write a thesis on Villa's continual failure.
I wonder how many clubs' supporters would consider us to have had continued failure - five or six maybe?
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I wouldn't call it continued failure. Mistakes have been made which have set us back and we've blown a couple of good chances of silverware in recent seasons but I wouldn't say it's been a failure.
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Maybe it's my perspective but anytime we cannot be looked upon as one of the premier clubs in the country not one that is continually looking behind us, we are failing.
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Maybe it's my perspective but anytime we cannot be looked upon as one of the premier clubs in the country not one that is continually looking behind us, we are failing.
Remind me of how many times in the last 100 years we've been regarded as one of the top clubs in the country.
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The 1960's and now is probably just about the only era when we haven't been regarded as one of the top sides.
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The 1960's and now is probably just about the only era when we haven't been regarded as one of the top sides.
How do you work that out based on the fact that we were relegated in the fifties and eighties, spent half of the seventies outside the top division and got a lot closer to relegation in the nineties than we ever have lately?
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Ten years ago if you had said that Britain would have back to back winners of the Tour de France within the decade you would have been laughed at. Yes cycling has had a big injection of money but the real sea change in British bike riding has been planning and self belief.
You're spot on here. This is where i think we have gone wrong. We've got enough money with Randy, Faulkner is showing that he is good at the admin side but we're lacking a visionary leader like Brailsford who will join all the dots and incrementally force them to improve bit by bit (see Levy at spurs too #spit#). I think the days of a Ferguson/Wenger coming along and building an entire club on their own are long gone, or at least you're gambling all your income on one man.
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We need an old school captain who demands respect from team-mates and opponents alike, he needs to be a reducer of the Stuart Pearce ilk.
We also need strikers who have an understanding of the game, not headless chickens like Weimann with all the composure of a stand up comedian on his first night.
We have too many young players staring into the headlights like startled rabbits, adequate players but only that. Lambert is accountable, he should have replaced Petrov with someone of similar experience.
Too many players seem bewildered, unrehearsed, lacking in nouse, enthusiastic but naive. Baker, Weimann, Westwood. It's not beyond hope, they can take heart from Delph who's maturing nicely (apart from his pathetic quest for yellow card record breaking status, most of his bookings are just brainless).
We need blood and snotters, experienced pros and composure.
In my opinion what you're describing there are symptoms rather than the cause of our ills. The club needs more leadership from the top rather than a chest pumping captain.
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With regards to Platt he always had a demeanour that he was doing us a favour in being here, even before he became an England regular. He seemed to believe that adulation was his divine right, even his ridiculously complicated back passes screamed 'look at me'
I can't think of a better player,who didn't leave under a cloud,so ill thought of.
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With regards to Platt he always had a demeanour that he was doing us a favour in being here, even before he became an England regular. He seemed to believe that adulation was his divine right, even his ridiculously complicated back passes screamed 'look at me'
I don't remember anything like that. He was always very popular with the fans while at Villa. In fact I remember a poll in the Evening Mail where he was voted the most popular person in the country (or something like that). Even when he left he was still popular. It was only when he started being a tv pundit and didn't sing our praises left right and centre that some Villa fans started to get the hump.
Personally I couldn't care less because he did his talking on the pitch for us. He was outstanding in a Villa shirt.
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The 1960's and now is probably just about the only era when we haven't been regarded as one of the top sides.
The fact we have won one league title in the last 100 years and one fa cup in the last 90 years suggests your opinion is not quite correct.
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The 1960's and now is probably just about the only era when we haven't been regarded as one of the top sides.
The fact we have won one league title in the last 100 years and one fa cup in the last 90 years suggests your opinion is not quite correct.
But we've spent all but about 12 seasons of our entire history in the top division of English football. Surely that makes us a top club?
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It is the perennial argument as to what makes someone a top side - is it judged on being in the top flight or winning trophies?
Mr gage referred to us being regarded as one of the top sides for all but the 60s and now - you refer to us being a top club .
As a club , I would tend to agree but as his argument was as a side then our playing record would suggest not .
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Maybe it's my perspective but anytime we cannot be looked upon as one of the premier clubs in the country not one that is continually looking behind us, we are failing.
Well, we're one of the 7-8 clubs that have been in the Premiership since its conception (even if the last three have been nail-clinging stuff). We've been to four Wembley Cup Finals and two semi-finals at Wembley in the last 20 years. And we were runners-up in the last top-flight before the Premiership. I won'd add the Intertoto and the Peace Cups to this list; they are perhaps a little 'junior' in nature.
We have a ground that away fans seem to rate highly and our away fans are often applauded for their whole-hearted support of the team.
Last season we earned many plaudits for the support we gave to Stylian, and our sponsorship of Acorns was widely praised.
Our youth academy is regarded as a model for others, and winning the last NextGen seems to endorse that. Securing and then selling on players at a profit - like Barry, Young, Cahill - may not be something that we wish to dwell on, but it shows some acumen.
There are lots of clubs that would kill for a record like that, even if we have won very little compared to the Sky 4. So, I think it's your perspective, ROBBO.
Home form? - for me, it's about better leadership, better training against soft goals and set pieces and having more tactical options. At the moment, we are fallible and predictable as a team and away managers must love coming to VP.
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I hope you are right Brian , as we all want the club to be successful - the game has changed for the worse in recent years and is not the game i once loved - it is now too much about money and players rarely have the passion and loyalty for clubs we used to take for granted.
I share your hopes and wishes for the future but I think it may be a long time before they come to fruition - In some ways I wish the sky 5 would fuck off and form a European league so we can compete for England's finest trophies again .
eastie, that is one of the best posts for a long time. The top 4-5 are miles infront of the rest of us. Put them in a European league, increase promotion from the lower leagues. But , unfortunately pal, that would not do the Devil, that is Sky, sorry , Devils, BT Sport aswell, any good with their plan to take over football and turn it into a sterile gathering of nobody's, with no clue of history or anything else. Muted support from the stadium, no standing, no expressing yourself with passion for your team, fear of ejection from the ground. We will just sit there and clap and go home happy, i suppose.
Me, i want safe standing to be introduced to all clubs in the English Premier League. I want atmosphere, singing, jumping around a bit, safely.
Amfy is on a crusade, and a fine crusade it is, to at least get this listened to. Long may she continue, but not to long. We should be able to stand in designated areas of every stadium, safe standing is the way forward.
When the Holte was a standing area away teams would shit themselves at the sheer magnitude of Villa fans behind that end, although it was a bit empty for a few years, but you get what i am trying to say.
We need that atmosphere back at VP. Amfy and her helpers are well on the way to trying to change things.
Lower Holte should be safe standing, lower North should be safe standing. The atmosphere then would scare the hell out of every visiting team. The way it should be. Villa park should be an absolute fortress, at the moment it is not. It has become a sterile, mobile phone using, 4G using theatre of wanabee Villa supporters.
I know we come from the old days but i still feel that we have been forgotten. Proper fans who have spent thousands, over the years, supporting our club, only to be forgotten, because of the Sky Era.
Just my point of view you understand.
Go Amfy, get some atmosphere back into our stadium. All the best to every Villa fan on the planet. 3 lagers, 3 large bacardi's and to finish, a lion bar, and some pickled onion Monster Munch.
Absolutely agree with the two posters except for Dan's Monster Munch.....all those e numbers explains a lot!
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The only bit of that I would disagree with Mister E is the selling of Gary Cahill for a profit. The sum for which the current England centre back was sold by MON to Bolton barely covered what his time at the Academy had cost us. I rate it as one of the biggest blunders in the transfer market Villa have ever made.
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The only bit of that I would disagree with Mister E is the selling of Gary Cahill for a profit. The sum for which the current England centre back was sold by MON to Bolton barely covered what his time at the Academy had cost us. I rate it as one of the biggest blunders in the transfer market Villa have ever made.
point taken.
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I am right eastie. We are living through a phase when the belief that money can buy anything is regarded as indisputable. Money does not generate success, it generates failure ultimately. Man City are the lab rats in this test. They have unlimited money. Has the level of their success been in direct proportion to the money they have spent? No. Are their fans any happier? No. Can they beat a screwed up bunch of kids from B6? No. Will their arab owners grow bored with them and buy Red Bull Racing? Probably. What about that pillar of football history and tradition Chelsea? Well, the Communists got over 25% of the popular vote in a massively rigged election. Let them get a whiff of a return to power in Russia and the oligarchs will all be living with their bullion under the pavements of Zurich. Man U? A bubble of debt waiting to go pop.
Kids with no shoes on their feet playing with a rag ball in South Africa is the future of football. Sky and their ilk are fleas on the back of football. Nothing more.
Good post indeed , can almost feel your passion and heart as you write - truly excellent.
All reigns come to an end as Man U are finding out now , and Liverpool found after dalglish departed.
The day avramovich leaves Chelsea will be a day for real football fans to rejoice.
indeed about Chelsea, I always think everytime the camera pans on to Abramovich that he looks completely bored with the game.
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Didn't we sell him for five million? It did not cost five million to produce Cahill from our academy.
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Didn't we sell him for five million? It did not cost five million to produce Cahill from our academy.
For me, it's more about the potnetiall value than that which we got from Bolton.
But this wasn't really the original point - this is a detail.
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A detail that undermines an argument that we barely broke even on him, which is not remotely true.
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I am right eastie. We are living through a phase when the belief that money can buy anything is regarded as indisputable. Money does not generate success, it generates failure ultimately. Man City are the lab rats in this test. They have unlimited money. Has the level of their success been in direct proportion to the money they have spent? No. Are their fans any happier? No. Can they beat a screwed up bunch of kids from B6? No. Will their arab owners grow bored with them and buy Red Bull Racing? Probably. What about that pillar of football history and tradition Chelsea? Well, the Communists got over 25% of the popular vote in a massively rigged election. Let them get a whiff of a return to power in Russia and the oligarchs will all be living with their bullion under the pavements of Zurich. Man U? A bubble of debt waiting to go pop.
Kids with no shoes on their feet playing with a rag ball in South Africa is the future of football. Sky and their ilk are fleas on the back of football. Nothing more.
Good post indeed , can almost feel your passion and heart as you write - truly excellent.
All reigns come to an end as Man U are finding out now , and Liverpool found after dalglish departed.
The day avramovich leaves Chelsea will be a day for real football fans to rejoice.
indeed about Chelsea, I always think everytime the camera pans on to Abramovich that he looks completely bored with the game.
Thats very tru about Abramovich, he does look bored.
But, at least he's there.
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What difference does Abramovich's pressence make to Chelsea?
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What difference does Abramovich's pressence make to Chelsea?
So HE can decide which players to buy.
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What difference does Abramovich's pressence make to Chelsea?
So HE can decide which players to buy.
and which manager to sack/hire....maybe he is still not over Sir Herbert shaking his hand down the Villa...
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The poll is interesting as almost 60% feel that the manager is to blame for the home form be it just him or the tactics.
[As both are the same thing]
This is interesting because on other threads the manager gets support for his 'plan' but in reality a majority of those polled feel that his 'plan' is not working especially at home
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The poll is interesting as almost 60% feel that the manager is to blame for the home form be it just him or the tactics.
[As both are the same thing]
This is interesting because on other threads the manager gets support for his 'plan' but in reality a majority of those polled feel that his 'plan' is not working especially at home
Agreed, I made a similar point earlier - the manager decides the tactics so surely the poll should include tactics as manager,
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The 1960's and now is probably just about the only era when we haven't been regarded as one of the top sides.
The fact we have won one league title in the last 100 years and one fa cup in the last 90 years suggests your opinion is not quite correct.
When we won the League in 1981 ( making it 7 titles and 7 FA cup wins) and European cup a year later we were amongst a the top 4/5 English clubs. Others being Manu, Arsenal, Liverpool and Leeds at that time. Since the start of football as we know it today (1992) we are in about 5/6 position on points accumulation. So we ARE in the top half a dozen clubs in this land therefore a TOP club.
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The 1960's and now is probably just about the only era when we haven't been regarded as one of the top sides.
The fact we have won one league title in the last 100 years and one fa cup in the last 90 years suggests your opinion is not quite correct.
When we won the League in 1981 ( making it 7 titles and 7 FA cup wins) and European cup a year later we were amongst a the top 4/5 English clubs. Others being Manu, Arsenal, Liverpool and Leeds at that time. Since the start of football as we know it today (1992) we are in about 5/6 position on points accumulation. So we ARE in the top half a dozen clubs in this land therefore a TOP club.
Affers my old friend , I agree with your point about top club , however there is a difference between top club and top side - the poster suggested only in the 60s and now could we not be called a top side .
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Where did it all go wrong ? For me there are 2 key moments of mons reign that were pivotal-
1- The fiasco in Moscow - to play so many games to reach that stage and then put out a weak side was unforgivable , and the following draw with stoke only added to the distress.
2- The decision by dowd not to send off vidic - had we won that final it would have been silverware and European qualification and we may well have finished the season with a flourish .
Just to add also - the signing of heskey rather than bent also contributed.
Spot on. I'd add to that a certain 'sense' that the players we were buying weren't quite the cream of the crop. We were buying lots of players and spending big money but they were not signings to get excited about (with the exception of perhaps Petrov, Milner, Young and Carew). I think we all had reservations about the likes of Harewood, Knight, Heskey and Beye turning up at Villa Park. It was hard to reconcile those type of signings to our supposed billing as 'the one to break into the top four'.
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Top sides of the 60s arguably Liverpool, Manu, everton, man city .
70s - Liverpool, Leeds, derby, forest
80s - Liverpool, arsenal,
90s- man utd, arsenal
00- Chelsea , man utd
I didn't include us in the 80s as we had 2 really good years in the decade - winning the title , and European cup ( remember we finished 11th that season ) .
If we wish to be perfectly honest its over a century since we could be called one of the top 2 sides of the decade .
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Top sides of the 60s arguably Liverpool, Manu, everton, man city .
70s - Liverpool, Leeds, derby, forest
80s - Liverpool, arsenal,
90s- man utd, arsenal
00- Chelsea , man utd
I didn't include us in the 80s as we had 2 really good years in the decade - winning the title , and European cup ( remember we finished 11th that season ) .
If we wish to be perfectly honest its over a century since we could be called one of the top 2 sides of the decade .
Didn't we have a fourth place finish in the 70s too and sixth in 82/83? In the years from 81-93 we finished in the top two on three occasions! It all depends how you look on it. We have missed opportunities to 'build' in the modern era. That's how I look at it and I do think villa have underachieved.
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Yes we have had a few top 4 finishes but nothing hugely consistent compared to the likes of Liverpool , utd and arsenal who have won trophies galore in that period.
We are in my opinion one of the top 6 clubs in the country and probably everton would say the same - similar in many ways - but the likes of arsenal, Man U and Liverpool are well ahead of us.
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Just to add we are far away the biggest and most successful club in the midlands by a million miles .
Contrary to our neighbours ' we know what we are !"
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Yes we have had a few top 4 finishes but nothing hugely consistent compared to the likes of Liverpool , utd and arsenal who have won trophies galore in that period.
We are in my opinion one of the top 6 clubs in the country and probably everton would say the same - similar in many ways - but the likes of arsenal, Man U and Liverpool are well ahead of us.
If only we could 'doctor' the decades! To say there was a decade that stretched from 74-75 to 84-85 you would say that was a great decade for villa or even a decade from 91-92 to 01-02 where you could say we were only out of the top ten once, regularly finished top six, won a couple of trophies and finished runners up in the league.
Edit. I am well aware things could be doctored to make us look like a yo-yo club too. My point is, our current trophyless run is an exception and we seem to be falling behind where we traditionally were.
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Like most 'genuine' football fans, I'd love to see the day where Abramovich and the Arabs get bored, drop their respective clubs and buy an ice-hockey franchise instead. Sadly, it isn't going to happen. Football clubs aren't playthings for these people, they have yachts the size of small towns and diamond encrusted Ferraris for that. What these football clubs represent is prestige, validation and legitimacy.
Owning Man City, winners of arguably the world's most famous league, lends an air of respectability to human-rights abusing Abu Dhabi, as does the World Cup for the equally questionable Qataris. It's a form of membership. They have enough money to buy 100 Man Citys and the next 50 World Cups. As that isn't yet possible, they're not about to give up what they've got in a hurry.
As for Man United's bubble bursting, that worked well with Liverpool didn't it?
*Devil's advocate warning* Perhaps we as Villa fans have to get used to the fact that we can't compete and never will. Maybe our future triumphs will be in the form of relegation escapes, spawny wins against the Sky Five and the occasional Sunderland-style tonking. Perhaps what we need to do is accept that and make the fan experience better, more enjoyable, fun - like an away game. Which is where the safe standing initiative is crucial. St Pauli fans know their team is shit and always will be, but they have built a cult around their club and they have a ball at home games. Maybe that's the future?
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Like most 'genuine' football fans, I'd love to see the day where Abramovich and the Arabs get bored, drop their respective clubs and buy an ice-hockey franchise instead. Sadly, it isn't going to happen. Football clubs aren't playthings for these people, they have yachts the size of small towns and diamond encrusted Ferraris for that. What these football clubs represent is prestige, validation and legitimacy.
Owning Man City, winners of arguably the world's most famous league, lends an air of respectability to human-rights abusing Abu Dhabi, as does the World Cup for the equally questionable Qataris. It's a form of membership. They have enough money to buy 100 Man Citys and the next 50 World Cups. As that isn't yet possible, they're not about to give up what they've got in a hurry.
As for Man United's bubble bursting, that worked well with Liverpool didn't it?
*Devil's advocate warning* Perhaps we as Villa fans have to get used to the fact that we can't compete and never will. Maybe our future triumphs will be in the form of relegation escapes, spawny wins against the Sky Five and the occasional Sunderland-style tonking. Perhaps what we need to do is accept that and make the fan experience better, more enjoyable, fun - like an away game. Which is where the safe standing initiative is crucial. St Pauli fans know their team is shit and always will be, but they have built a cult around their club and they have a ball at home games. Maybe that's the future?
Spot on regarding the real reasons for ownership, but Jesus, if that's the future I'm off to watch Boldmere.
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A detail that undermines an argument that we barely broke even on him, which is not remotely true.
Well, make of it what you want but I was responding to someone who claimed that we are not a successful club. The topic of transfer success was added as an indicator that we've not done too badly in certain aspects.
Anyway, home form ...
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Like most 'genuine' football fans, I'd love to see the day where Abramovich and the Arabs get bored, drop their respective clubs and buy an ice-hockey franchise instead. Sadly, it isn't going to happen. Football clubs aren't playthings for these people, they have yachts the size of small towns and diamond encrusted Ferraris for that. What these football clubs represent is prestige, validation and legitimacy.
Owning Man City, winners of arguably the world's most famous league, lends an air of respectability to human-rights abusing Abu Dhabi, as does the World Cup for the equally questionable Qataris. It's a form of membership. They have enough money to buy 100 Man Citys and the next 50 World Cups. As that isn't yet possible, they're not about to give up what they've got in a hurry.
As for Man United's bubble bursting, that worked well with Liverpool didn't it?
*Devil's advocate warning* Perhaps we as Villa fans have to get used to the fact that we can't compete and never will. Maybe our future triumphs will be in the form of relegation escapes, spawny wins against the Sky Five and the occasional Sunderland-style tonking. Perhaps what we need to do is accept that and make the fan experience better, more enjoyable, fun - like an away game. Which is where the safe standing initiative is crucial. St Pauli fans know their team is shit and always will be, but they have built a cult around their club and they have a ball at home games. Maybe that's the future?
Great post. Like other have said if thats the future of football I'll go watch something else or non-league.
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As for the super rich Russian/Arab syndrome being essential to buy sucsess ,who won the FA and League Cups last season,cannot see that Wigan or Swansea are richer than us.
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Having a super rich owner is one way (and the main way) of getting to the top but it's not the only way. A club can also be built-up and well run over the long-term and you gradually inch your way up. It's not a stylish way and it's going to be very frustrating but that's the realistic alternative. As much as people won't thank me for saying this and as much as I'm trying to avoid typing it, look at Tottenham. They've been in the mix for a CL spot the last few years but they were mid-table some time before that. Then they develop a player like Bale and sell him for £80m and re-invest it wisely to potentially make the jump up. They've had clubs come in for their players over the years but they've got the most money they could and then generally used it well.
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“I’m pleased about the team and I’m pleased with the effort the players are putting in and what they’re doing in the games,” said Lambert.
“They have built up a great rapport with the fans and that’s not only important, it’s a reflection of how our fans have come to identify with this team in a very short space of time.
“We’re only a year and a bit into building this team but our fundamental principles are already clear.
“We try to win games. We play with hunger and desire and we play with pride. As a team we keep learning and progressing and we know we’re playing well enough to win. But no-one has a divine right to beat anyone. You have to earn it.”
Lambert met with Villa’s 1982 European Cup winners earlier this month and is a big believer in using the club’s heritage as inspiration for the future.
“Villa’s history probably outweighs that of a lot of clubs in the Premier League,” said Lambert.
“Winning the European Cup immediately catapults you into a separate category. It’s not just that of course.
“With the fanbase, the strong identity, the infrastructure and the stadium here, this club has got everything and this encourages us to aspire to be the best we can possibly be.
“This has ben our motivation for the past 17, 18 months or so. We’re trying to build something on top of those powerful foundations.
“With the right overall philosophy, with an unwavering work ethic and with a bit of luck along the way we can get something going here again, no question.”
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Well I have learned a lot about Mr Platt today. I still find his face disconcerting haha.
We have not been a top club since I have watched football, and have never seen us win anything. You oldies should feel lucky.
Home form issue: all of the above choices.
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“I’m pleased about the team and I’m pleased with the effort the players are putting in and what they’re doing in the games,” said Lambert.
“They have built up a great rapport with the fans and that’s not only important, it’s a reflection of how our fans have come to identify with this team in a very short space of time.
“We’re only a year and a bit into building this team but our fundamental principles are already clear.
“We try to win games. We play with hunger and desire and we play with pride. As a team we keep learning and progressing and we know we’re playing well enough to win. But no-one has a divine right to beat anyone. You have to earn it.”
Lambert met with Villa’s 1982 European Cup winners earlier this month and is a big believer in using the club’s heritage as inspiration for the future.
“Villa’s history probably outweighs that of a lot of clubs in the Premier League,” said Lambert.
“Winning the European Cup immediately catapults you into a separate category. It’s not just that of course.
“With the fanbase, the strong identity, the infrastructure and the stadium here, this club has got everything and this encourages us to aspire to be the best we can possibly be.
“This has ben our motivation for the past 17, 18 months or so. We’re trying to build something on top of those powerful foundations.
“With the right overall philosophy, with an unwavering work ethic and with a bit of luck along the way we can get something going here again, no question.”
I like what he's saying, and I hope he realises that creativity needs to be added in the midfield.
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The richest clubs have always been the teams who have won the most. Sunderland's period of success came when they were considered the Bank of England club. Liverpool dominated in a period when they spent the most.
The gap may be more pronounced, but fundamentally there has been no real change in how lasting success is established in football.
I also think the arguments which point at Man City, Chelsea etc with one hand and then try and point to things never changing and evrything is set in stone with the other, entirely contradictory.
20 years ago if you had said "Chelsea will win X amount of trophies and be a top side" then you'd have been laughed at. Five years ago when we thrashed Man City on the opening day if you had the same of them, then your comments would have been met with equal derision.
Football clubs rise and fall, Aston Villa have been in a cycle of moderate success and limited struggle for 25 years. Things change and they will again.
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Football clubs rise and fall, Aston Villa have been in a cycle of moderate success and limited struggle for 100 years. Things change and they will again.
Fixed.
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Football clubs rise and fall, Aston Villa have been in a cycle of moderate success and limited struggle for 100 years. Things change and they will again.
Fixed.
Sadly, I tend to agree with Dave's alteration.
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Yes we have had a few top 4 finishes but nothing hugely consistent compared to the likes of Liverpool , utd and arsenal who have won trophies galore in that period.
We are in my opinion one of the top 6 clubs in the country and probably everton would say the same - similar in many ways - but the likes of arsenal, Man U and Liverpool are well ahead of us.
Spot on Eastie - I agree that Everton are very much on a par we us. What makes me chuckle is that we bemoan the lack of success but just listen to Arsenal fans whingeing on the radio because they have been trophyless for a few years - at least they are watching decent quality football, albeit at a horrendous cost. I am lucky to have seen us win a few League Cups, the League and the European Cup - my lad has only seen us win at home a few times a season - and has two forgettable Wembley appearances in his Villa memory bank. I will be honest and admit that going to home games has become a "chore"and something that neither of us enjoy. The home "away" days up here in Lancashire are sorely missed - Blackburn, Wigan, Bolton etc. The stranglehold of SKY over fixtures and the "rich clubs getter richer" scenario means that nothing is likely to change unless- as you suggested that the "big 4/6/8" or whatever, clear off into a European super league or suchlike leaving the likes of us , Everton, Spurs, etc to form a new "First Division" Highly unlikely but would maybe whet my appetite for the game again.
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I agree that Everton are very much on a par we us. What makes me chuckle is that we bemoan the lack of success but just listen to Arsenal fans whingeing on the radio because they have been trophyless for a few years - at least they are watching decent quality football, albeit at a horrendous cost. I am lucky to have seen us win a few League Cups, the League and the European Cup - my lad has only seen us win at home a few times a season - and has two forgettable Wembley appearances in his Villa memory bank. I will be honest and admit that going to home games has become a "chore"and something that neither of us enjoy. The home "away" days up here in Lancashire are sorely missed - Blackburn, Wigan, Bolton etc. The stranglehold of SKY over fixtures and the "rich clubs getter richer" scenario means that nothing is likeley to change unless- as you suggested that the "big 4/6/8" or whatever, clear off into a European super league or suchlike leaving the likes of us , Everton, Spurs, etc to form a new "First Division" Highly unlikely but would maybe whet my appetite for the game again.
Agreed with most of this and - being of simlar vintage to you, VOTM - it all strikes a chord. My son, a Yorkshire born Villan, struggles to keep the faith because he has seen the barrenness of the last (roughly) 20 years.
Although we have had more fortune than some clubs will ever see - even over the last couple of decades - I pine for more success.
I'm not sure that a formalised European League in which the 'top' clubs permanently reside would be a pancea, though. I say this partly because (i) by continuing to play these big-money clubs we will eventually see rising standards at our own club; (ii) access to potentially-top players may become even more difficult; (iii) TV money and TV exposure will probably drop; and (iv) we'll all complain that we are not playing in the top league!
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We have not been a top club since I have watched football, and have never seen us win anything. You oldies should feel lucky.
Lucky ? Lucky ? 47 years I've been going and it's 1 European Cup, 1 League, 4 League Cups and No FA Cup ! For the club from the second city of the country that gave football to the world that's a poor return.
I don't know how long you have been going, obviously less than 17 years if you have never seen us win anything. But who is to say that when you have been watching 47 years you may have seen us win more than I have in my first 47 !
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We have not been a top club since I have watched football, and have never seen us win anything. You oldies should feel lucky.
Lucky ? Lucky ? 47 years I've been going and it's 1 European Cup, 1 League, 4 League Cups and No FA Cup ! For the club from the second city of the country that gave football to the world that's a poor return.
I don't know how long you have been going, obviously less than 17 years if you have never seen us win anything. But who is to say that when you have been watching 47 years you may have seen us win more than I have in my first 47 !
Don't forget our Third Division championship.
I know people may say that those who have been going for many years are lucky. I consider it a privilege but wouldn't mind being a bit younger again.
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Yes I was being a t
I agree that Everton are very much on a par we us. What makes me chuckle is that we bemoan the lack of success but just listen to Arsenal fans whingeing on the radio because they have been trophyless for a few years - at least they are watching decent quality football, albeit at a horrendous cost. I am lucky to have seen us win a few League Cups, the League and the European Cup - my lad has only seen us win at home a few times a season - and has two forgettable Wembley appearances in his Villa memory bank. I will be honest and admit that going to home games has become a "chore"and something that neither of us enjoy. The home "away" days up here in Lancashire are sorely missed - Blackburn, Wigan, Bolton etc. The stranglehold of SKY over fixtures and the "rich clubs getter richer" scenario means that nothing is likeley to change unless- as you suggested that the "big 4/6/8" or whatever, clear off into a European super league or suchlike leaving the likes of us , Everton, Spurs, etc to form a new "First Division" Highly unlikely but would maybe whet my appetite for the game again.
Agreed with most of this and - being of simlar vintage to you, VOTM - it all strikes a chord. My son, a Yorkshire born Villan, struggles to keep the faith because he has seen the barrenness of the last (roughly) 20 years.
Although we have had more fortune than some clubs will ever see - even over the last couple of decades - I pine for more success.
I'm not sure that a formalised European League in which the 'top' clubs permanently reside would be a pancea, though. I say this partly because (i) by continuing to play these big-money clubs we will eventually see rising standards at our own club; (ii) access to potentially-top players may become even more difficult; (iii) TV money and TV exposure will probably drop; and (iv) we'll all complain that we are not playing in the top league!
Yes I was being a trite Utopian - however we have struggled to sign "top" players in the past and have generally sold those who have "come good" whilst with us. You are right about the money and TV - how sad is it that it is TV money rather than gate money which keeps a club afloat? - that said if a club does reach the Premier League it gets a share of the pot. I would love us to be pioneers once again and thrive in a league where the bulk of the players are home grown rather than short term mercenary signings from overseas. My lad is fiercely proud to be a Villa fan amongst a sea of Liverpudlians and Evertonians and he gets quite a lot of respect from his mates along with the flak - he likes being different, however he is now starting to opt to stay at home in Formby and play sports, representing the town at cricket and hockey. I now face the, sometimes long and tedious journey down the M6 alone !
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Thats the way it rolls VCTM. My lad may be an avid sportsman in years to come but rules are rules.
Often, your team chooses you. He is 3 but is most unhappy about drinking from anything but his Villa cup and will cheer with me and shout "goal" when we score.
So the cycle begins again...
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Affers my old friend , I agree with your point about top club , however there is a difference between top club and top side - the poster suggested only in the 60s and now could we not be called a top side .
Fully agree on difference between top club and top team. In my supporting life so far we have been a top team twice. Obviously in 1980/81/82 and than from 1990 to 1996. In that period we finished runners up twice, fourth once and won the league cup twice.
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Affers my old friend , I agree with your point about top club , however there is a difference between top club and top side - the poster suggested only in the 60s and now could we not be called a top side .
Fully agree on difference between top club and top team. In my supporting life so far we have been a top team twice. Obviously in 1980/81/82 and than from 1990 to 1996. In that period we finished runners up twice, fourth once and won the league cup twice.
Agreed, and what wonderful times they were - how i wish we had won the league cup last season as there are few greater moments than winning trophies - I miss that feeling :(
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Yes I was being a t I agree that Everton are very much on a par we us. What makes me chuckle is that we bemoan the lack of success but just listen to Arsenal fans whingeing on the radio because they have been trophyless for a few years - at least they are watching decent quality football, albeit at a horrendous cost. I am lucky to have seen us win a few League Cups, the League and the European Cup - my lad has only seen us win at home a few times a season - and has two forgettable Wembley appearances in his Villa memory bank. I will be honest and admit that going to home games has become a "chore"and something that neither of us enjoy. The home "away" days up here in Lancashire are sorely missed - Blackburn, Wigan, Bolton etc. The stranglehold of SKY over fixtures and the "rich clubs getter richer" scenario means that nothing is likeley to change unless- as you suggested that the "big 4/6/8" or whatever, clear off into a European super league or suchlike leaving the likes of us , Everton, Spurs, etc to form a new "First Division" Highly unlikely but would maybe whet my appetite for the game again.
Agreed with most of this and - being of simlar vintage to you, VOTM - it all strikes a chord. My son, a Yorkshire born Villan, struggles to keep the faith because he has seen the barrenness of the last (roughly) 20 years.
Although we have had more fortune than some clubs will ever see - even over the last couple of decades - I pine for more success.
I'm not sure that a formalised European League in which the 'top' clubs permanently reside would be a pancea, though. I say this partly because (i) by continuing to play these big-money clubs we will eventually see rising standards at our own club; (ii) access to potentially-top players may become even more difficult; (iii) TV money and TV exposure will probably drop; and (iv) we'll all complain that we are not playing in the top league!
Yes I was being a trite Utopian - however we have struggled to sign "top" players in the past and have generally sold those who have "come good" whilst with us. You are right about the money and TV - how sad is it that it is TV money rather than gate money which keeps a club afloat? - that said if a club does reach the Premier League it gets a share of the pot. I would love us to be pioneers once again and thrive in a league where the bulk of the players are home grown rather than short term mercenary signings from overseas. My lad is fiercely proud to be a Villa fan amongst a sea of Liverpudlians and Evertonians and he gets quite a lot of respect from his mates along with the flak - he likes being different, however he is now starting to opt to stay at home in Formby and play sports, representing the town at cricket and hockey. I now face the, sometimes long and tedious journey down the M6 alone !
Yeah, I do the journey alone most times; Tom is a player and a coach so is busy all weekend. But he is Villa through and through.
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We have not been a top club since I have watched football, and have never seen us win anything. You oldies should feel lucky.
Lucky ? Lucky ? 47 years I've been going and it's 1 European Cup, 1 League, 4 League Cups and No FA Cup ! For the club from the second city of the country that gave football to the world that's a poor return.
I don't know how long you have been going, obviously less than 17 years if you have never seen us win anything. But who is to say that when you have been watching 47 years you may have seen us win more than I have in my first 47 !
Haha well I bloody hope so! But at least you have definitely seen us win things. As they say I would rather have the points on the board, there are no points on mine.
I have seen us at Wembley twice mind (although the one a semi). and if it wasn't for fatty mcfatfuck I may have seen us win something.
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A season where you're comfortable by March and all but safe should be the absolute bare minimum. Finishing under 50 points for a club like ourselves should not be acceptable in my opinion. Sadly until the state of the game changes we're a long way from competing, even in the top 6 again. We had that, we imploded on and off the pitch somewhat and teams have overtaken us.
I don't think survival should be our season point checklist. It's a little pathetic to be honest. Our target shouldn't be 40 points asap. We should be aiming for 50 at minimum and also winning more than we lose should be a pre-requisite.
I do feel fortunate for having been witness to two 2nd place finishes and 2 league cup victories. I'd hope to see us lift a trophy again within the next decade, but honestly. We've lost the last two finals we've been in and blown a semi final that should have been a stone wall win last season. We'll be lucky to see Wembley again any time soon.
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A season where you're comfortable by March and all but safe should be the absolute bare minimum. Finishing under 50 points for a club like ourselves should not be acceptable in my opinion. Sadly until the state of the game changes we're a long way from competing, even in the top 6 again. We had that, we imploded on and off the pitch somewhat and teams have overtaken us.
I don't think survival should be our season point checklist. It's a little pathetic to be honest. Our target shouldn't be 40 points asap. We should be aiming for 50 at minimum and also winning more than we lose should be a pre-requisite.
I do feel fortunate for having been witness to two 2nd place finishes and 2 league cup victories. I'd hope to see us lift a trophy again within the next decade, but honestly. We've lost the last two finals we've been in and blown a semi final that should have been a stone wall win last season. We'll be lucky to see Wembley again any time soon.
Spot on.
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It's all about transistion at the moment. We don't want to have another nervy season like we did last year and I don't think we will. If the home form picks up then 50 points is realistic and that's the only thing that's really holding us back at the moment, along with a bit of quality and experience which needs adding to the side.
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It's all about transistion at the moment. We don't want to have another nervy season like we did last year and I don't think we will. If the home form picks up then 50 points is realistic and that's the only thing that's really holding us back at the moment, along with a bit of quality and experience which needs adding to the side.
'Transition' Do I not like that word, seams we have been in transition for years now
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It's all about transistion at the moment. We don't want to have another nervy season like we did last year and I don't think we will. If the home form picks up then 50 points is realistic and that's the only thing that's really holding us back at the moment, along with a bit of quality and experience which needs adding to the side.
'Transition' Do I not like that word, seams we have been in transition for years now
Well we are at the moment with the high turnover of players Lambert has brought in.
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It's all about transistion at the moment. We don't want to have another nervy season like we did last year and I don't think we will. If the home form picks up then 50 points is realistic and that's the only thing that's really holding us back at the moment, along with a bit of quality and experience which needs adding to the side.
'Transition' Do I not like that word, seams we have been in transition for years now
Well we are at the moment with the high turnover of players Lambert has brought in.
I agree, the next 2 months will tell us a lot as to how far we have developed - we need points and results to get back around the top 10 .
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I saw this quote on the BBC and it did make me wonder
"West Ham United manager Sam Allardyce on his team's poor home form: "Lots of teams are finding it tougher to secure points at home and it shows that tactically teams are going away and being strong.
"Everybody said we've got to improve our away form. We've done that but now we've got to get our home form back to where it was last season."
The Hammers are looking to avoid a fourth straight home Premier League defeat when they host Aston Villa on Saturday"
Perhaps it isn't just us who are struggling for Home form in recent times. Maybe it is just that the way teams set up to play nowadays is better suited to playing away. Football in general does tend to have it's fashionable phases of certain tactics and formations and maybe everyone is just going through this, and because most of us only care about what Villa are doing, we don't see this.
I can't be arsed looking at whether statistics back this theory up or anything like that. After all, that's the beauty of an internet forum. There will be someone out there aching to prove me wrong i'm sure!
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Spurs have been better away this and last season too.
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It's partly down to the 1 up front fad. Most clubs prefer to play the 4-2-3-1 now, or a 4-5-1/4-3-3 (with two wingers more than forwards). It's well suited for counter attacking football which lends itself well to playing away.
There's few grounds you'd call intimidating to play at nowadays either, be it new grounds lacking character older ones had (Emirates isn't as working class friendly as Highbury because the working class get priced out, nor does it have the compactness of the pitch and atmosphere for example) and a rise in plastic fans, particularly at clubs which have become fashionable after a modicum of success lately, like Spurs. From mid-tablers to competing in the top 5 year on year.
More so it's true of Chelsea and Man City. Rich owners bringing almost immediate success. Suddenly there's all these City and Chelsea fans appearing out the woodwork who've decided they'd be good clubs to follow. A trait started 20 years ago by a great surge in glory hunting Utd fans.
A clubs die-hards and more passionate fans will always show up in the away stands in their away games. This gives great vocality among the away fans which isn't necessarily always there with a lot of home sides fans in the top flight these days.
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Look at last seasons table too. From 7th down there wasn't a decent home record to be seen. Even Spurs and Arsenal dropped points in 8 games a piece last season.
That said we need to get our home form up to average as opposed to utterly piss poor. I'm not expecting us to be a fortress again (if we ever were) but winning comfortably more than you lose at home should be a given.
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Just read that Everton have won 22 drew 7 and lost 2 of their last 31 premier league home games. Pretty obvious that it's nothing to do with fans because theirs are shite even though they have a lot to crow about.
So we can strike that option and it becomes even more clearer that it's all about players and formations and only 1 person is to blame for that.
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Just read that Everton have won 22 drew 7 and lost 2 of their last 31 premier league home games. Pretty obvious that it's nothing to do with fans because theirs are shite even though they have a lot to crow about.
So we can strike that option and it becomes even more clearer that it's all about players and formations and only 1 person is to blame for that.
Everton were top 6 last season though. So it goes without saying, build a good home form and as long as you're reasonable away you'll do well.
Fans can play some part because some grounds, at least used to be, quite intimidating to play in. You can't entirely scratch that, but it's maybe 5% of it.
There's also something to be said about building a winning mentality. String a few wins together and you can conceivably build a run. By the same token, as we are finding, it's very difficult to shake off that stigma that you can't win consistently at home. If beating City in the manner we did can't be a turning point, then I really don't know what is.
But fully agree. The biggest issue is the manager on this. He's set us out all wrong in most home games. I can take average home form, like we had under O Neill. But the home form under Lambert has been wretched. Again, I appreciate that the previous two seasons before him, we had developed a defeatist mentality on our own patch. But if he's to be our long term Villa manager, he's got to turn things around sharpish. We've been well beaten 5 times at home this season (in all competitions). Besides beating Man City and the mighty Rotherham it's been complete drek.
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If you take a look at Arsenal, their fans experienced 1 bad day at the office and came out of the ground wanting to sack Wenger, kill all his descendants and erase him from the clubs records, just because they'd lost the opening game.
Spurs fans. Took a right hammering from AVB, because even with a record this season of 12 wins 2 draws and 1 defeat their support against Hull was appalling.
And then there's us. Dreadfull home record going back 3 years now but if there's a murmur in the crowd when another misplaced pass goes astray we are a hard crowd to please bordering on fickle.
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We were soundly beaten by Liverpool?
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If you take a look at Arsenal, their fans experienced 1 bad day at the office and came out of the ground wanting to sack Wenger, kill all his descendants and erase him from the clubs records, just because they'd lost the opening .
Not really.
That was about their continued failure to adequately replace their best players whilst sitting on a huge cash pile for several seasons, it wasn't just about that one game by any stretch.
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Spurs fans. Took a right hammering from AVB, because even with a record this season of 12 wins 2 draws and 1 defeat their support against Hull was appalling.
I had TalkSport on the other night and there were Spurs fans ringing up complaining about the style of the football and how bored they were. It was all a bit Chelsea really. They've spent a massive amount of money and it's gone to their heads.
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We were soundly beaten by Liverpool?
I thought we were.
Liverpool scored, then killed the game off. If we'd seen out an away win like that, we'd be justifiably proud.
Ultimately, we need to stop failing to win matches on such a regular basis. It is that simple.
Yes we played well at Chelsea, yes, we looked better against Spurs and Everton than we did last season, but still lost those games.
We are clearly not a rubbish side, but we need to start expressing this through points on the board on a more regular basis, because the "looked better than last year" thing when we lose will start to wear thin pretty soon.
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If you take a look at Arsenal, their fans experienced 1 bad day at the office and came out of the ground wanting to sack Wenger, kill all his descendants and erase him from the clubs records, just because they'd lost the opening .
Not really.
That was about their continued failure to adequately replace their best players whilst sitting on a huge cash pile for several seasons, it wasn't just about that one game by any stretch.
It was the first game of the season though. They had no idea how the rest of the season was going to pan out, there was still weeks of the transfer window left and they were on the back of an incredible run from the end of the previous season.
Massive over reaction from the spoilt goon mob and as it panned out they signed one of the best players in the world, which the manager had said he was trying to and went and won 10 games in a row, they don't know patience.
So yeah i'd say they made themselves look absolute cocks.
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Spurs fans. Took a right hammering from AVB, because even with a record this season of 12 wins 2 draws and 1 defeat their support against Hull was appalling.
I had TalkSport on the other night and there were Spurs fans ringing up complaining about the style of the football and how bored they were. It was all a bit Chelsea really. They've spent a massive amount of money and it's gone to their heads.
They've finished top 6, 6 times in 21 years and 4 of those have been the last 4 years. It's not like they're Arsenal.
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Having one shot on goal in ninety minutes and defending your own 18 yard line for 55 of those 90 is not soundly beating somebody. Its verging between hanging on and grinding out.
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Having one shot on goal in ninety minutes and defending your own 18 yard line for 55 of those 90 is not soundly beating somebody. Its verging between hanging on and grinding out.
Hanging on is a bit far fetched! Grinding out is fair. They didn't play well but then didn't need to. We struggled to create anything as Toure (who I thought was the best player on the pitch that day) just swept everything up.
For the past 20 years football has increasingly moved away from the mentality than the people that go to matches are 'supporters' (providing funds to support their club) and has moved towards the fact that they are 'customers' (who are there to be sold to). It's no surprise that in such a shift the demographic of the fanbase has changed and the expectations of the fans has changed. After all, you get what you pay for, and if fans are being asked to pay more then it's no surprise they expect to get more. The issue is more noticable the higher up the football food chain you go which is why you get the likes of AVB having a go at the Spurs fans' expectations.
That said, the players haven't massively changed. They're still young lads in a highly competitive environment who's performance will be affected by how they're feeling. So when the fans get on their backs it's no surprise the younger players suffer. I don't think Villa fans are generally overly harsh but the likes of the booing at the end of the Everton game (which we could've easily won) was pathetic and counter-productive.
All the other things listed as potential factors are also relevant and, if fixed, would no doubt improve the fans attitude. But I think we have a part to play in turning things around.
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Patience is something of a lost virtue nowadays no matter where you are. It does get ridiculous. Utd fans have reacted like spoilt toddlers on the back of their start. Some of these people had spent a few years questioning Fergies ability to still do his job, any time he didn't walk away with the title.
In terms of ourselves, given how godawful it's been in recent years, I think we've been quite patient. We were actually fairly patient with McLeish to be fair. But it was so horrific from Feb onwards for him that there was no coming back with us.
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We were soundly beaten by Liverpool?
I thought we were.
Liverpool scored, then killed the game off. If we'd seen out an away win like that, we'd be justifiably proud.
Ultimately, we need to stop failing to win matches on such a regular basis. It is that simple.
Yes we played well at Chelsea, yes, we looked better against Spurs and Everton than we did last season, but still lost those games.
We are clearly not a rubbish side, but we need to start expressing this through points on the board on a more regular basis, because the "looked better than last year" thing when we lose will start to wear thin pretty soon.
Yep agreed, improvement of performance is one thing but without results it doesn't really matter. Also I think whilst we look a bit more solid, we don't look as threatening going forward. There are a few issues that need sorting, some of them can be dealt with within the current squad, but some require investment in the squad.
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In top flight football, are there any grounds which have great home fans anymore? I don't think we're any good, but I've thought that about the home team every away game I've been to. Virtually all are pretty silent until a home goal is scored, and some stay that way *cough* Old Trafford.
Which is why I love away games, the atmosphere is x100 better.
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I think Villa supporters have always been willing to give managers and players a chance, if anything we're too nice.
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I went to the Britannia last season and couldn't believe how much the crowd has changed from when they first came up, they were on Stoke's back since the first time Ryan Shotton had hopelessly hoofed the ball out for a goal kick.
Compare that to in 08/09 when as a newly promoted team they won 10/19 home games (so better than what we've achieved in the last 5 seasons) and it was a truly intimidating atmosphere.
Now it isn't and with them being a limited side they struggle to win.
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I think Villa supporters have always been willing to give managers and players a chance, if anything we're too nice.
I'm not so sure I agree with this personally. I think we have been patient with the current manager, definitely (and rightly, although my faith may be waining). But from my experiences we are a pretty quick set of fans to moan, I mean who would have wanted to have been Barry Bannan? Apart from the riches of course. I've only been a season ticket holder since MON left mind, so moaning is pretty understandable!
I think once we get going we're amazing, on a basis of when we take the lead (we need 4 goals for confidence now lol), I think we're one of the best.
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Wouldn't mind seeing us clock up the stats that spurs have of 28 points from the last 33 at home , or man city who scored in every one of their last 54 home games - we need to find consistency at home in a good way.
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That's beyond us really, in any case Spurs are better away. They won 11/19 at home last season and West Ham strolled to a win a few weeks back.
Everton are the model to copy, keep it tight and nick games. Don't think they've lost since Dec 29th.
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This isn't just an issue at home, but I'm concerned by how much our attacking play has regressed and how many players are playing worse than they did last year.
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This isn't just an issue at home, but I'm concerned by how much our attacking play has regressed and how many players are playing worse than they did last year.
They might have been found out? they were only good from mid February to early May? They didn't rip up any trees before that really and the last two games of the season were pretty average. I think some of them have been figured out and also that the Newcastle result has knocked them back.
Funny, Newcastle look like they could be a bit of a surprise package this year as it happens.
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Today was a game between two very poor sides - we may survive again because there are a few bad sides down there but I'm hugely disappointed with the lack of creativity again his season.
Weimann one goal all season , and if benteke doesn't score then its hard to see where goals will come from - depressing.
We have scored 9 goals in 10 games but 6 came against arsenal and city - a paltry 3 goals in our other 8 games.
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This isn't just an issue at home, but I'm concerned by how much our attacking play has regressed and how many players are playing worse than they did last year.
Same for me. Last season we ended with goals galore and looked like we were going to score everytime we crossed the halfway line. I can't believe just the threat of relegation was the sole reason for this.
Even the first 3 games of the season I was pretty happy, 3 goals at Arsenal, could easily have scored the same against Chelsea and Liverpool we still created a few chances even if we generally struggle in that game.
Since the international break and the awful Newcastle game things have regressed even if we're still picking up points. It is a grind to watch us atm bar the second half of the Man. City game where things went for us and Everton first half, rest of the time we have not had any fluency going forward. It is a concern, a creative midfielder can't come soon enough for me.
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We're a midtable team playing mid-table football. If that is a grind? Well then boo fucking hoo.
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Weimann desperately needs a spell out. The lad fluffs at least one decent chance a game. He's scored one goal which was very fortunate and just seemed to trickle over the line. We'd have hoped that would start things rolling for him, but not so.
Benteke is literally our only goal threat and if he's off the boil we're in trouble.
We're in a scrap again sadly. This boils down to not having enough quality in the team, or in the management sadly. Plenty of potential but there's too much that needs ironing out in the here and now. I'm all for a long term game plan but not at the cost of relegation. If you flirt with it too often, it will get you. We're right in it with the bottom 12. There's virtually nowt between all these sides, bar Palace and Sunderland who look even worse. Besides those two, pick any one out of 12, including us, to potentially join them.
This isn't good enough at all. Our attack is unskilled, unimaginative, disorganized and totally limp. Home and away.
As for playing mid-table football. We're not that good at the moment. We're playing bottom end football and we're on a slide. Again, it's not a case of scraping a lower-mid-table finish this season. We should be doing better. We're a club quite capable of finishing above anyone currently in the bottom 12. If you consider below 8th as the best of the rest. That should be us. Top 10 is minimum, but I think we'll probably end up between 12th and 16th again.
Something major needs to happen in january. 2-3 decent players have to come in. Our midfield is complete wank.
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Yeah we're mid-table. Obviously in a relegation scrap. Sack Lambert at the end of November.
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Yeah we're mid-table. Obviously in a relegation scrap. Sack Lambert at the end of November.
After three years running scrapping relegation and the way we're playing recently, you can't hear any alarm bells then? We look incapable of scoring. Weimanns playing like Unlucky Alf. If he fell into a barrel of boobs he'd come out sucking his thumb. We've seen in previous years what happens when we're too reliant on our few quality players and we have injuries, or when we're going out with a team of boys, week in week out. If we don't pull it round soon in our so called "easy" run, then we have the usual congested Xmas fixtures and we've all seen how badly we can fall into a slump. If you spend as much time as we have fighting off relegation and you find yourself sitting in the bottom half in a bad run, I don't care how early November might seem in the grand scheme of a season, you're in a relegation scrap. The sooner we get out, the better.
I want Lambert to succeed. He's got the right ideas in principal, but implementing them is another matter. He doesn't seem to learn in certain regards. If he gets sacked at the end of the month I won't shed a tear. He's in a dog eat dog, results driven business.
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Weimann desperately needs a spell out. The lad fluffs at least one decent chance a game. He's scored one goal which was very fortunate and just seemed to trickle over the line. We'd have hoped that would start things rolling for him, but not so.
Benteke is literally our only goal threat and if he's off the boil we're in trouble.
We're in a scrap again sadly. This boils down to not having enough quality in the team, or in the management sadly. Plenty of potential but there's too much that needs ironing out in the here and now. I'm all for a long term game plan but not at the cost of relegation. If you flirt with it too often, it will get you. We're right in it with the bottom 12. There's virtually nowt between all these sides, bar Palace and Sunderland who look even worse. Besides those two, pick any one out of 12, including us, to potentially join them.
This isn't good enough at all. Our attack is unskilled, unimaginative, disorganized and totally limp. Home and away.
As for playing mid-table football. We're not that good at the moment. We're playing bottom end football and we're on a slide. Again, it's not a case of scraping a lower-mid-table finish this season. We should be doing better. We're a club quite capable of finishing above anyone currently in the bottom 12. If you consider below 8th as the best of the rest. That should be us. Top 10 is minimum, but I think we'll probably end up between 12th and 16th again.
Something major needs to happen in january. 2-3 decent players have to come in. Our midfield is complete wank.
Very good post , we have seen how we need that creative midfielder for a while but lambert has spent more money on another striker to add to helenius and Bowery .
I will not be at all surprised if we enter February still without creative midfielder or experience heads to help steady the boat.
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For those suggesting Lambert should go what do you think is the reason for our troubles?
There's a lot of references to three seasons of struggles. Well Lambert wasn't around for two of those. In those three seasons we had three completely different approaches to life. Given the continual chopping and changing of managers is it any wonder the squad isn't the finished article?
Have some patience for heavens sake. What happens if we sack Lambert now? We get someone else in, he changes the team and we're back to square one. Whilst I don't think that changes our chances of relegation this season I don't think it helps build better long term prospects.
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No I don't have any alarm bells. If I were a Norwich fan, having seen fifty million spent over two seasons on what was a mid-table side, then I would be very worried.
Its not a case of finding three teams worse than us, its plain to see their are quite a number of poorer sides.
The past two away games, we haven't played well, yet we kept clean sheets. I take that as a positive (as I value a positive result away from home) and an improvement.
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Changing manager every year or two is of course no good in the long term - what we need is the right manager in charge and to stick with him .
Regarding lambert , after 18 months in the job i still haven't seen enough to convince me either way that he is or isn't the right man long term - I was filled with hope as we got off to a flying start of the season following on from an encouraging end to last season.
It is true to say we have had tough fixtures but we seem to have lost some of the momentum from that spell and while the away form is good the home form must improve and fast .
The next few weeks will go a long way to seeing where we stand - some very winnable games but also potential banana skins in there - lets see where we are in the new year .
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No I don't have any alarm bells. If I were a Norwich fan, having seen fifty million spent over two seasons on what was a mid-table side, then I would be very worried.
Its not a case of finding three teams worse than us, its plain to see their are quite a number of poorer sides.
The past two away games, we haven't played well, yet we kept clean sheets. I take that as a positive (as I value a positive result away from home) and an improvement.
Norwich are expected to be struggling and for them survival is success.
I would hope a club of our size and stature have greater ambitions than Norwich - I would view a bottom 8 finish this season as very disappointing.
I prefer to look at everton who are similar in size and stature and the sort of club I would expect to be competing with around the top 8.
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I don't agree with that. When Lambert left them they were mid-table. The side needed refinement, not an overhaul, and they have spent funds on six or seven players that you would think would allow consolidation and then to kick on a little.
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I don't agree with that. When Lambert left them they were mid-table. The side needed refinement, not an overhaul, and they have spent funds on six or seven players that you would think would allow consolidation and then to kick on a little.
Norwich had a good 1st season back in the top flight , with a lot of managers they like to bring in their own players and style- I think mid- table was punching above their weight that season - our ambitions should be much higher than theirs .
Whilst 14th will be relative success for them , for us it would be disappointing.
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I don't post here often (but I come in here to read others comments everyday).
I don't think we should be hitting the panic button just yet. Lambert has only had one full season and one season is nothing to go by in football. I admit that there should be some sort of progress this season (finishing higher than 15th least).
We have to consider the teams we've been playing so far. Most of them have been top 8 teams. Ok we lost against Newcastle which was disappointing but we have beaten Arsenal and Man city. Our defensive side has been not bad considering who we've been playing. We haven't taken any hammerings yet which is good.
Ok the goals have tried up as of late and like others, I am concerned about our weak midfield. But lets look at the situation after 19 games. If after that point we're lower than where we are now then I want RL to tell PL that he needs to bring in some proven quality midfielder in January. If he doesn't then yeah I'm happy for a change.
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I don't post here often (but I come in here to read others comments everyday).
I don't think we should be hitting the panic button just yet. Lambert has only had one full season and one season is nothing to go by in football. I admit that there should be some sort of progress this season (finishing higher than 15th least).
We have to consider the teams we've been playing so far. Most of them have been top 8 teams. Ok we lost against Newcastle which was disappointing but we have beaten Arsenal and Man city. Our defensive side has been not bad considering who we've been playing. We haven't taken any hammerings yet which is good.
Ok the goals have tried up as of late and like others, I am concerned about our weak midfield. But lets look at the situation after 19 games. If after that point we're lower than where we are now then I want RL to tell PL that he needs to bring in some proven quality midfielder in January. If he doesn't then yeah I'm happy for a change.
Good points chippy, you should post more often , my friend.
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I don't post here often (but I come in here to read others comments everyday).
I don't think we should be hitting the panic button just yet. Lambert has only had one full season and one season is nothing to go by in football. I admit that there should be some sort of progress this season (finishing higher than 15th least).
We have to consider the teams we've been playing so far. Most of them have been top 8 teams. Ok we lost against Newcastle which was disappointing but we have beaten Arsenal and Man city. Our defensive side has been not bad considering who we've been playing. We haven't taken any hammerings yet which is good.
Ok the goals have tried up as of late and like others, I am concerned about our weak midfield. But lets look at the situation after 19 games. If after that point we're lower than where we are now then I want RL to tell PL that he needs to bring in some proven quality midfielder in January. If he doesn't then yeah I'm happy for a change.
Good points chippy, you should post more often , my friend.
Seconded.
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From our next three games we should be looking at a minimum of 5 points, a realistic target of 7 points and ideally 9 points.
If we get 7 or 9 I cannot wait to see the inevitable change in tone around this place!!
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From our next three games we should be looking at a minimum of 5 points, a realistic target of 7 points and ideally 9 points.
If we get 7 or 9 I cannot wait to see the inevitable change in tone around this place!!
Of course there will be - its a results business , if we had got got 7 from the last 9 we all be delighted and rightly so , but its understandable there are concerns after 1 in 9.
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Really hate saying it but I can't see us beating the Tescos. They're a solid side and I think they might bully us out the game somewhat. I'd take a draw at this point.
5 should be bare minimum and if we can sneak a couple of wins in that run then that would be good. With the defence in pretty solid form, particularly against the lower end opposition who lack that extra quality, I fancy 2-3 more clean sheets. Cardiff is the one for me. We've got to win that game. If you look at the equivalent last season you'd compare them with Reading perhaps. We won that game last season in a period where we were struggling to win.
Sunderland is difficult to gauge. If Di Canio was there I'd actually fancy it as a nailed on 3 points. Poyet has a job and a half to do but he's at least level headed and smart, so we shall see. They will be looking at our home form and fancying that as a result that could help turn a corner. A draw or win. Preferably the latter.
Again, at this point I'd take a couple of sloppy 1-0 wins, and it may have to come to that. Whilst the defence is doing well, hopefully we have the resoluteness to do that. It might be time to give a few players a rest and see how hungry the likes of Helenius, Sylla and Tonev are. I'd also consider re-instating Lowts and pushing Bacuna further forward as his delivery from wide is fairly good. Weimann is doing nothing at the moment. Westwood and KEA are both poor. Benteke needs help.
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From our next three games we should be looking at a minimum of 5 points, a realistic target of 7 points and ideally 9 points.
If we get 7 or 9 I cannot wait to see the inevitable change in tone around this place!!
Of course there will be - its a results business , if we had got got 7 from the last 9 we all be delighted and rightly so , but its understandable there are concerns after 1 in 9.
Call it 2 in 12 if it makes you feel more despondent.
But that ignores the fact we've got two points and two clean sheets in our last two away games and lost the two home ones in between to teams who've been up around the Champions League spots consistenty for the past decade and in both we got a significantly better performance and slightly better results (-4 goal diff vs -6 goal diff) than in the same games the year before.
Oh, and the game before this run we beat a team who's spent more money on their team in the past 5 seasons than we've spent in the club's history.
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Really hate saying it but I can't see us beating the Tescos. They're a solid side and I think they might bully us out the game somewhat. I'd take a draw at this point.
5 should be bare minimum and if we can sneak a couple of wins in that run then that would be good. With the defence in pretty solid form, particularly against the lower end opposition who lack that extra quality, I fancy 2-3 more clean sheets. Cardiff is the one for me. We've got to win that game. If you look at the equivalent last season you'd compare them with Reading perhaps. We won that game last season in a period where we were struggling to win.
Sunderland is difficult to gauge. If Di Canio was there I'd actually fancy it as a nailed on 3 points. Poyet has a job and a half to do but he's at least level headed and smart, so we shall see. They will be looking at our home form and fancying that as a result that could help turn a corner. A draw or win. Preferably the latter.
Again, at this point I'd take a couple of sloppy 1-0 wins, and it may have to come to that. Whilst the defence is doing well, hopefully we have the resoluteness to do that. It might be time to give a few players a rest and see how hungry the likes of Helenius, Sylla and Tonev are. I'd also consider re-instating Lowts and pushing Bacuna further forward as his delivery from wide is fairly good. Weimann is doing nothing at the moment. Westwood and KEA are both poor. Benteke needs help.
We need to beat Cardiff and Sunderland really and build some confidence at home - i fancy a draw at the hawthorns , I think all 3 will be very tough games though - no easy games at this level.
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From our next three games we should be looking at a minimum of 5 points, a realistic target of 7 points and ideally 9 points.
If we get 7 or 9 I cannot wait to see the inevitable change in tone around this place!!
Of course there will be - its a results business , if we had got got 7 from the last 9 we all be delighted and rightly so , but its understandable there are concerns after 1 in 9.
Likewise it depends on the manner of how we'd get 7 or 9 points. If we dish out 3-0 hidings and suddenly look brilliant in attack then a change of tone will hardly be surprising.
But obviously last season we had a short run where we played the 5 at the back where we went 5 unbeaten, including the impressive Liverpool win. It looked like a turning of the corner at that point, but we all know the run we went on after that. So I don't think 3 wins in the next 3 games will have everyone on here doing cartwheels.
Where we are by January is the key for me. I just want to get through xmas with us comfortably over the 20 point mark and well on the way to having survival locked up with a month or two to spare.
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I saw the Albion at Stoke. They're no better than us.
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Really hate saying it but I can't see us beating the Tescos. They're a solid side and I think they might bully us out the game somewhat. I'd take a draw at this point.
5 should be bare minimum and if we can sneak a couple of wins in that run then that would be good. With the defence in pretty solid form, particularly against the lower end opposition who lack that extra quality, I fancy 2-3 more clean sheets. Cardiff is the one for me. We've got to win that game. If you look at the equivalent last season you'd compare them with Reading perhaps. We won that game last season in a period where we were struggling to win.
Sunderland is difficult to gauge. If Di Canio was there I'd actually fancy it as a nailed on 3 points. Poyet has a job and a half to do but he's at least level headed and smart, so we shall see. They will be looking at our home form and fancying that as a result that could help turn a corner. A draw or win. Preferably the latter.
Again, at this point I'd take a couple of sloppy 1-0 wins, and it may have to come to that. Whilst the defence is doing well, hopefully we have the resoluteness to do that. It might be time to give a few players a rest and see how hungry the likes of Helenius, Sylla and Tonev are. I'd also consider re-instating Lowts and pushing Bacuna further forward as his delivery from wide is fairly good. Weimann is doing nothing at the moment. Westwood and KEA are both poor. Benteke needs help.
We need to beat Cardiff and Sunderland really and build some confidence at home - i fancy a draw at the hawthorns , I think all 3 will be very tough games though - no easy games at this level.
Indeed. There's very little between the current bottom 12 (minus Palace who are virtually gone already). Even Sunderland have a few half decent players who could turn things round for them if they hit some form. Adam Johnson still needs to prove his worth there. Fletcher has shown he's got goals in him at this level. It's actually a lot of O Neill's signings ironically that might turn things for them, more so than Di Canio's largely head scratching selection from the 15 players he bought in.
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From our next three games we should be looking at a minimum of 5 points, a realistic target of 7 points and ideally 9 points.
If we get 7 or 9 I cannot wait to see the inevitable change in tone around this place!!
Of course there will be - its a results business , if we had got got 7 from the last 9 we all be delighted and rightly so , but its understandable there are concerns after 1 in 9.
Call it 2 in 12 if it makes you feel more despondent.
But that ignores the fact we've got two points and two clean sheets in our last two away games and lost the two home ones in between to teams who've been up around the Champions League spots consistenty for the past decade and in both we got a significantly better performance and slightly better results (-4 goal diff vs -6 goal diff) than in the same games the year before.
Oh, and the game before this run we beat a team who's spent more money on their team in the past 5 seasons than we've spent in the club's history.
You seem to be placing everton and spurs on something of a pedestal there , almost as if we shouldn't expect anything against either.
Brings back memories of Mcleish with his what do you expect attitude against the so called big boys .
Tottenham and everton are from arsenal and man utd.
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I saw the Albion at Stoke. They're no better than us.
That would suggest a draw is on the cards mate! ;)
Ads, you're a brave man for watching that game too. It must have been horrific.
If we win against Cardiff we then have the break before the next game so that could well give us enough time to really get Benteke up to 100% fitness. The baggies game will be very tight and it might take a bit of class to win it. Benteke would be the one to provide that as they don't really have that standout sort of player at the moment.
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They had some decent chances, especialy at the end. I tell you what, they're a right bunch of slack jawed yokels too.
A derby game is a great leveller. Look how awful we were from December to February, yet we could and should have been four up at half time.
I think it will be a draw too; a good result, especially if we pick up six points at home. We would be on 18 going into more winnable games in December.
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You seem to be placing everton and spurs on something of a pedestal there , almost as if we shouldn't expect anything against either.
Brings back memories of Mcleish with his what do you expect attitude against the so called big boys .
Tottenham and everton are from arsenal and man utd.
I'm not placing them on a pedestal at all. I just remember Everton ripping us to pieces in 45 minutes at the start of last season and had they not given up at half time we'd have conceded a lot more than the 3 we did concede that day. And Spurs did much the same last season without really breaking sweat. I'm not fawning over those two but the reality is they've both got much better teams and squads, yet despite that we could've and should've beaten Everton and made much more of a game of it against Spurs than we did last season.
If that's not classed as progress I'm not sure what is. To be expecting us to go from being utterly thrashed by those teams one season to expecting us to be doing the same to them the following season without spending too much money is crazy.
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They had some decent chances, especialy at the end. I tell you what, they're a right bunch of slack jawed yokels too.
A derby game is a great leveller. Look how awful we were from December to February, yet we could and should have been four up at half time.
I think it will be a draw too; a good result, especially if we pick up six points at home. We would be on 18 going into more winnable games in December.
That's the key really. If we're ever going to sort out our home form, we've got just about the best possible chance of starting a run in the next 3 games. Two sides below us in the table, both struggling for goals. Win two home games on the bounce and it can start the ball rolling. It doesn't have to be pretty either. That can come with confidence.