Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Andy1874 on October 29, 2012, 02:25:14 AM
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I was watching the merseyside derby earlier, it was nice to see a full passionate crowd. A sell out of 39k makes you think would we achieve that now on sunday morning (ie against small heath) Im fed up of hearing excuses about finances/on tele/credit cruch et al. The scousers are in no better situation than we are, yet they both have a larger home/away following.
This will probably get locked but does no-one else share the same opinion ? We are one of the cheapest clubs in the country yet our attendances our pretty poor!
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I think the scousers probably see more wins , could be a reason.
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Liverpool have a much larger fan base than we do. If a load of people decide not to show up they've got plenty of people ready to snap up seats. I think every Liverpool fan also probably thinks there still in with a shot at the title, even when it's mathematically impossible, in my experience they're some of the most deluded fans I've ever known. That's good in some ways I suppose, because they keep gates up.
As for us, we're sorely lacking in atmosphere. It's all a bit morose. And attendances do need to improve drastically or we'll be trimming more from the wage bill.
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When you only see a win at VP about every 3 months its difficult to keep 40,000 interested.
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Even if we're one of the cheaper sides to watch, it's still a lot of money and time to invest in to something you're almost certain is going to leave you feeling pissed off for the rest of the weekend.
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What attendance level do you expect?
Back before football was invented a 33,000+ attendance against Norwich would have seemed like a huge attendance!
Perhaps we are at the level we should be?
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When you only see a win at VP about every 3 months its difficult to keep 40,000 interested.
Nail on head. If/when we improve so will attendances.
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When you only see a win at VP about every 3 months its difficult to keep 40,000 interested.
Nail on head. If/when we improve so will attendances.
Two wins in nearly a year at home in the league is hardly going to inspire people that they will get value for money.
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This crops up every so often but have a check what our average attendance was when we won the league and were European champions. I notice empty seats at many games these days especially at the two Manchester clubs.
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This crops up every so often but have a check what our average attendance was when we won the league and were European champions. I notice empty seats at many games these days especially at the two Manchester clubs.
I remember being at a top flight game in the mid 80s at home to Southampton when the gate was less than 8,500 at villa park.
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Our hardcore home base is around 30k, with another fairweather 9-10k depending on how well we're doing.
My issue is the modern day football fan. Have they not discovered what chanting is or getting behind the team with words of encourgagement? In L2 every time my group, consisting of my Dad,my Mate Peter and I, we get looked at like we have suddenly developed six heads. It really gets my back up.
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I was watching the merseyside derby earlier, it was nice to see a full passionate crowd. A sell out of 39k makes you think would we achieve that now on sunday morning (ie against small heath)
We would sell out against Blues no problem.
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I was watching the merseyside derby earlier, it was nice to see a full passionate crowd. A sell out of 39k makes you think would we achieve that now on sunday morning (ie against small heath) Im fed up of hearing excuses about finances/on tele/credit cruch et al. The scousers are in no better situation than we are, yet they both have a larger home/away following.
This will probably get locked but does no-one else share the same opinion ? We are one of the cheapest clubs in the country yet our attendances our pretty poor!
Why should it be locked?
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Because it's all been said before?? I thought it was a decent attendence saturday considering it was saturday 12.45 and it was on sky
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The scousers are in no better situation than we are, yet they both have a larger home/away following.
Forget Liverpool, they have a massive following and you can't make a comparison with Villa.
Everton though, look at their average attendances for the last 4 or 5 years and they're pretty much identical to ours. And Everton's away following is certainly no bigger than Villa's.
Next
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One of my main gripes at Villa Park is the negativity, all around me on Saturday (even during that small spell around and after our goal) was impatience if we didn't pass forward at light speed, annoyance at playing keep ball across the middle and then anger when we rushed a pass forward and lost the ball. Of course we want to see attacking incisive football with Villa battering teams like Norwich and I feel frustrated when we play poorly or when Guzan seems to have been insturcted to lump it long but I don't think the home crowd helps sometimes. Not because it's lacking in atmosphere compared to all other top flight grounds (you only have to compare the Saturday before at Fulham where the home crowd was silent through-out the entire game until their goal) but because it's like we're pre-set to moan and grumble rather than encourage. Especially when you compare the atmosphere in the away end where the Villa fans are amazing (I know it's like comparing apples and pears but imagine if home games were like the away end, constant singing, constant support, positive reaction if the other team score etc...).
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Its absolutely about results. in the MON era, when we were at our strongest, I think we got over 40,000 for almost every game one season. At Man city, in Shinawatra's final season they weren't selling out their season tickets, and Everton are only selling out in the last couple of seasons since they've kicked on a bit. Same with Newcastle.
All football fans are the same. Some clubs (The "sky" clubs) have larger, more national fanbases, but those with regional appeal tend to have similar gates that follow similar patterns directly related to results and league position.
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I think Newcastle have had good crowds for a long time, they were getting 40k in the championship. Big ground and big catchment area, There is literally nothing else there
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I think Newcastle have had good crowds for a long time, they were getting 40k in the championship. Big ground and big catchment area, There is literally nothing else there
That's true but I've also seen villa play at Newcastle in front of 11,000 in the top flight when willie McFaul was their boss in 86.
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The biggest issue for me is not the attendances, as I think 33K against Norwich is pretty good, its the appaulling atmosphere.
Going to VP nowadays feels like going to the theatre. I keep harping on to my son about how things used to be, my worry is that the lack of atmosphere will become the norm.
This current generation and the next ones will be coming along to football and just sitting in their seat watching, no singing no atmosphere and this is all they will know, it will become the norm.
Got to admit I am starting to find going down VP a bit boring regardless of the results, but I cling to the hope that when results improve the atmosphere and enjoyment will return.
Away games are a completely different animal.If only we could bottle the atmosphere up and bring it to VP.
For instance, look at last week at Fulham and the PL C&B army that went on for what seemed like about 20 mins none stop, Not the greatest song in the world but the whole away end was rocking. Compare that to Saturday and on the one or two occasssions it got going it just fizzled out and died
Unfortunately I have no idea what the answer is
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The biggest issue for me is not the attendances, as I think 33K against Norwich is pretty good, its the appaulling atmosphere.
Going to VP nowadays feels like going to the theatre. I keep harping on to my son about how things used to be, my worry is that the lack of atmosphere will become the norm.
This current generation and the next ones will be coming along to football and just sitting in their seat watching, no singing no atmosphere and this is all they will know, it will become the norm.
Got to admit I am starting to find going down VP a bit boring regardless of the results, but I cling to the hope that when results improve the atmosphere and enjoyment will return.
Away games are a completely different animal.If only we could bottle the atmosphere up and bring it to VP.
For instance, look at last week at Fulham and the PL C&B army that went on for what seemed like about 20 mins none stop, Not the greatest song in the world but the whole away end was rocking. Compare that to Saturday and on the one or two occasssions it got going it just fizzled out and died
Unfortunately I have no idea what the answer is
Bring back standing areas where all those who want to sing and chant can gather together in one place. [as happens when we travel away]
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The biggest issue for me is not the attendances, as I think 33K against Norwich is pretty good, its the appaulling atmosphere.
Going to VP nowadays feels like going to the theatre. I keep harping on to my son about how things used to be, my worry is that the lack of atmosphere will become the norm.
This current generation and the next ones will be coming along to football and just sitting in their seat watching, no singing no atmosphere and this is all they will know, it will become the norm.
Got to admit I am starting to find going down VP a bit boring regardless of the results, but I cling to the hope that when results improve the atmosphere and enjoyment will return.
Away games are a completely different animal.If only we could bottle the atmosphere up and bring it to VP.
For instance, look at last week at Fulham and the PL C&B army that went on for what seemed like about 20 mins none stop, Not the greatest song in the world but the whole away end was rocking. Compare that to Saturday and on the one or two occasssions it got going it just fizzled out and died
Unfortunately I have no idea what the answer is
I completely agree with this. I take pride in the fact that I always go to the Villa with the intention of making some noise and singing, but I'm starting to know fewer and fewer people my age who feel the same. I mean, you can't fault them; it's their choice - there's just no better feeling in the world than being right in the middle of a Holte End that's rocking. I wish more people wanted that feeling more often.
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Dig up the standing argument all you want, but IMO it's down to results and that's it. For the last few years Villa have underperformed at home, and have have done since MON was in charge. You could probably go back even further. There's the odd exception that proves the rule; Blues 5-1, Ajax 2-1, but all that tells me is that it isn't about the seating, rather about the performance and result.
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The gate and atmosphere are poor because of how bad the team is doing. It's always been the same at Villa and it always will be. And any team that produces the shit Villa are at the moment would be the same. Lerner has sold our best players and replaced them with rubbish. It's only natural the 7-8k that turned up when we were flying high in the league will stop coming.
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DID SOMEBODY SAY "FICKLE"?
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01460/david-oleary_1460199c.jpg)
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DID SOMEBODY SAY "FICKLE"?
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01460/david-oleary_1460199c.jpg)
All football fans are fickle. It's hardly a big deal.
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The scousers are in no better situation than we are, yet they both have a larger home/away following.
Forget Liverpool, they have a massive following and you can't make a comparison with Villa.
Everton though, look at their average attendances for the last 4 or 5 years and they're pretty much identical to ours. And Everton's away following is certainly no bigger than Villa's.
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Oh it most certainly is. It's far superior to us, Chelsea, Spurs, Man City & Newcastle. Apart from Stamford Bridge, where ticket prices for away fans are fast approaching £60, they take and sell the full allocation at nigh-on every ground, whatever the time of day, however well they're playing. (And even at Chelsea they still always fill the 1500 allocation, whereas we took 900 there last season)
You won't ever see Everton take less than 1000 fans to an away game. We already have in our second away game of the season. And will do again at Chelsea, possibly Liverpool, and possibly Man United. They've just taken 3000 to QPR on a Sunday at £40-£45 a ticket. We're being charged the same, playing them on a Saturday at 3pm, but we'll struggle to sell the initial 1700 allocation. They always bring 3000 to Villa Park, more often than not we only take 1800 to them at far more reasonable prices than we charge their fans.
Numerically, Everton are on a par with Man United and Liverpool. We don't come close to them. Or Chelsea. Or Spurs. Or Man City. Or Newcastle. Vocally however, give me our support over all of those clubs every day of the week. Especially Everton. They're dreadful.
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Yep, people shouldn't run away with the idea that Old Trafford, Stamford Bridge or the Emirates are exactly cauldrons of noise. They're all souless these days and Villa Park is no worse than any other ground. That's the Premier League for you. The EPL.
10 years ago it would be unhinkable that fans of a European side could embarrass an English team at home. Happens every time now.
Shit innit
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Yep, people shouldn't run away with the idea that Old Trafford, Stamford Bridge or the Emirates are exactly cauldrons of noise. They're all souless these days and Villa Park is no worse than any other ground. That's the Premier League for you. The EPL.
10 years ago it would be unhinkable that fans of a European side could embarrass an English team at home. Happens every time now.
Shit innit
Agree with that. The exception would be Spurs which always generates a big noise and that comes over on TV as well. The only thing i could hear most of the time on Saturday was Chris Houghton shouting.
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Yep, people shouldn't run away with the idea that Old Trafford, Stamford Bridge or the Emirates are exactly cauldrons of noise. They're all souless these days and Villa Park is no worse than any other ground. That's the Premier League for you. The EPL.
10 years ago it would be unhinkable that fans of a European side could embarrass an English team at home. Happens every time now.
Shit innit
Those Vienna fans were mental. The problem in England is the all seater stadia though isn't it? They're just dull. Going away is fine because you still just about get that close knit feeling, and everybody still stands up, but in a 3/4 full Villa Park, it's just never going to happen.
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People say its all seaters or the ground but I remember euro 96 at villa park holland v Scotland where the noise levels and atmosphere were incredible - hard to believe it was the same ground.
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I really don't care about win ratio nor the fact that Liverpool apparently have a massive fan base.
Newcastle win no matches or have won honours in the recent history than we have done and they have much higher gates than us.
Liverpool may well have a massive worldwide fan base but they live in a city about the 1/3 the size of ours.
So it is shameful that people of Birmingham can not turn up in decent numbers to fill a 40K stadium.
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I really don't care about win ratio nor the fact that Liverpool apparently have a massive fan base.
Newcastle win no matches or have won honours in the recent history than we have done and they have much higher gates than us.
Liverpool may well have a massive worldwide fan base but they live in a city about the 1/3 the size of ours.
So it is shameful that people of Birmingham can not turn up in decent numbers to fill a 40K stadium.
They do, over three grounds. Newcastle are a one club town, smaller than Birmingham but still with no other club within it's boundaries.
I'd rather have Villa Park half full of Villa fans than full of glory hunters, idiots who swallow any bit of "EPL" hype offered to them and brummies who support teams with which they have no link to other than their Sky subscription.
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I really don't care about win ratio nor the fact that Liverpool apparently have a massive fan base.
Newcastle win no matches or have won honours in the recent history than we have done and they have much higher gates than us.
Liverpool may well have a massive worldwide fan base but they live in a city about the 1/3 the size of ours.
So it is shameful that people of Birmingham can not turn up in decent numbers to fill a 40K stadium.
Liverpool may be smaller than Brum, but they've got huge support from all over the North West (well, left of the M6 mostly) including places like Runcorn, Widnes, St Helens, Wigan, Warrington, Birkenhead, Southport and even further afield like Chester and Wrexham. All medium to big towns with traditionally no big football teams in them. You add up the population of all those and it'll be huge. Birmingham has big urban areas around it, but they've got their own decent sized teams, eg Wolverhampton, Sandwell and Coventry. I know we get our fair share of supporters from places like Worcester and Cheltenham etc, but to be fair they don't strike me as being as football mad as run down towns like Widnes etc.
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I'm so sorry that I spent the first few weeks of the season in hospital, and earlier in the year decided to start a family. It's really selfish of me to want to spend my money and time on my 7 month old instead of going to the football. I should be ashamed of myself for thinking there is more to life than football.
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I'm so sorry that I spent the first few weeks of the season in hospital, and earlier in the year decided to start a family. It's really selfish of me to want to spend my money and time on my 7 month old instead of going to the football. I should be ashamed of myself for thinking there is more to life than football.
Don't take it personally, Spex. ;) Many of us have been through the 'nesting' phase; you'll get through it and still be a Villa fan.
I think a large part of the atmosphere issue is simply the poor fare of the last 15 months - 2-3 home wins in that time is bound to grind down the Chosen Few.
Remember the last home game of the GHou / GMac time: with B'ham going down and us beating Redscouse - that was a great atmosphere; on the back of a late surge in form.
We need a turnaround in playing style and fortunes to recover some pride and belief - and that's just the fans.
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I think standing is key.
Our away support is great. It has the most dedicated support congregated in the same place.
Bring in a safe standing area (it would be great to see the lower Holte as the location) and you will have all the peop0le that want to stand during a game congregate there and make noise again.
If you really wanted to create atmosphere, then we should stick the away fans next to the Holte.
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I've only been to the Everton game this season. The beginning of the game there was a really decent and encouraging atmosphere, but then we went two nil down. I got the feeling the fans really wanted to get behind the team but there is no belief at the moment. It really has been a painful couple of years. 30 odd thousand against Norwich at home, in our position and during a time of economic difficulties is not bad at all.
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33k is pretty good for a team that been in decline for 3 season.
I think if Lambert sorts things out and we finish mid table gates around 33-35k will be the norm with bigger gates against the " sky big 4", I say that taking the piss.
If we get relegated god forbid we would be best supported side in the championship
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On the upside I think if Mcleish was still in charge we'd be hitting the high 20's, low 30's quite regularly.
Too much more of this form and the initial mini buzz of Lambert taking over will be well and truly over though.
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Our attendances have often been flaky. We dropped under 30K a number of times under JG, had a few under Mr Fickle and even under MON we had 27K against Bolton plus a few others that only just crept past the 30K mark.
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We're not cheap, but compared to other top flight sides we're quite reasonable. It makes low turnouts that bit more frustrating.
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Our attendances have often been flaky. We dropped under 30K a number of times under JG, had a few under Mr Fickle and even under MON we had 27K against Bolton plus a few others that only just crept past the 30K mark.
...but averaged 40k+ I seem to recall one season under MON. Have Everton come close to that in recent years despite being a consistently good team for the past decade?
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I really don't care about win ratio nor the fact that Liverpool apparently have a massive fan base.
Newcastle win no matches or have won honours in the recent history than we have done and they have much higher gates than us.
Liverpool may well have a massive worldwide fan base but they live in a city about the 1/3 the size of ours.
So it is shameful that people of Birmingham can not turn up in decent numbers to fill a 40K stadium.
Liverpool may be smaller than Brum, but they've got huge support from all over the North West (well, left of the M6 mostly) including places like Runcorn, Widnes, St Helens, Wigan, Warrington, Birkenhead, Southport and even further afield like Chester and Wrexham. All medium to big towns with traditionally no big football teams in them. You add up the population of all those and it'll be huge. Birmingham has big urban areas around it, but they've got their own decent sized teams, eg Wolverhampton, Sandwell and Coventry. I know we get our fair share of supporters from places like Worcester and Cheltenham etc, but to be fair they don't strike me as being as football mad as run down towns like Widnes etc.
I've heard this argument bandied around a lot and never really believed it so I've just done some research.
The Government splits the country down into regions with populations as follows (taken from Wikipedia):
West Mids - 5.6m
North West - 7.05m
North East - 2.6m
League football clubs covered by the regions above are (from Wikipedia and a bit of common sense):
West Mids - Us, Blues, Cov, Stoke, Vale, Wolves, Baggies, Walsall, Shrewsbury, Burton A, Crewe, Cheltenham and Hereford
North West - Man U, Man City, Liverpool, Everton, Tranmere, Bolton, Bury, Oldham, Rochdale, Wigan, Preston, Burnley, Blackpool, Blackburn, Macclesfield and Rotherham
North East - Newcaslte, Sunderland, Middlesborough and Hartlepool
The sum of the average attendances in 2011 for all the clubs listed in each region are (taken from European-Football-Statistics.co.uk:
West Mids - 186,253
North West - 329,221
North East - 106,931
If you then calculate a percentage of local population attending one of the local grounds each game you get:
West Mids - 3.33%
North West - 4.67%
North East - 4.11%
So we're way below those areas in terms of attendance. If the West Mids could get to the North East level of participation there would be an extra 44,000 people attending each game across all our clubs.
I've said it before, for me the reason for the difference is cultural. The North West and Newcastle are football mad (although a lot of the clubs in the North West are actually historically rugby league towns so they're changing the culture round there and arguably punching above their weight). The West Mids however just isn't as fanatical about football. I've no idea why. It can't just be down to success as the North East has had no success for years. Any ideas?
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Our attendances have often been flaky. We dropped under 30K a number of times under JG, had a few under Mr Fickle and even under MON we had 27K against Bolton plus a few others that only just crept past the 30K mark.
...but averaged 40k+ I seem to recall one season under MON. Have Everton come close to that in recent years despite being a consistently good team for the past decade?
Doesn't change that we had 27K for a game under him.
And Everton have a smaller ground which will drag the average attendance down. And about 10% of that is restricted view seats IIRC.
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Everton only got 32.5K against Newcastle this season, despite being contenders for the Champs League.
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But even under MON the atmosphere was rubbish. Infact, its been rubbish since the Gregory era
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We've been average at home for the best part of a decade, probably more. O Neill never sorted it out, it was decent away form that helped us to three top 6 finishes. We always drew far too many games we should have won. A fortress this is not.
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Everton only got 32.5K against Newcastle this season, despite being contenders for the Champs League.
A Monday night game. And their 4th match of the season, a bit generous to call them CL contenders after 3 games.
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Very interesting Adam. In the North West it must be to do with success, as obviously in Liverpool and Man U they have the two most successful clubs from the 1970s onwards. I'd put part of it in the North East down to a sort of tribalism. There's huge rivallry between Sunderland and Newcastle, and the two teams are an extension of that. In the Midlands, here is neither the recent success nor inter-city rivallry to get fans going. Of course we hate our neighbours, but that isn't the same thing as when it's city v city like Liverpool and Manchester or Newcastle or Sunderland. Have you got the London figures as well, as a mater of interest?
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Decent crowds are generated by a combination of winning, entertainment and decent 'star' players. Considering we have none of these 33k is pretty good. Our critics are eager to state how fickle we are but considering where we are now compared to the team we had with the England midfield we are not as fickle as many would think. However, the pricing against the big boys is ridiculous especially as we need a decent crowd to get behind the team. Not many armchair fans are going to part with £40+ to see their team played off the pitch are they?
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Very interesting Adam. In the North West it must be to do with success, as obviously in Liverpool and Man U they have the two most successful clubs from the 1970s onwards. I'd put part of it in the North East down to a sort of tribalism. There's huge rivallry between Sunderland and Newcastle, and the two teams are an extension of that. In the Midlands, here is neither the recent success nor inter-city rivallry to get fans going. Of course we hate our neighbours, but that isn't the same thing as when it's city v city like Liverpool and Manchester or Newcastle or Sunderland. Have you got the London figures as well, as a mater of interest?
Afraid not. I was doing it over lunch and London would take ages to pull together given the number of clubs there. If anyone else has time to sort I've given my sources for the info. If not and I have time tonight I might give it a crack.
If I was a betting man however I'd suggest London will have a lower percentage than the West Mids. It's a much bigger population and they have more going on in life than football. That's all I can think of at the moment - people in the North East have nothing else to do other than watch football and as you say, the North West has generally been the centre of footballing success in this country for the last 40 years.
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Our attendances have often been flaky. We dropped under 30K a number of times under JG, had a few under Mr Fickle and even under MON we had 27K against Bolton plus a few others that only just crept past the 30K mark.
...but averaged 40k+ I seem to recall one season under MON. Have Everton come close to that in recent years despite being a consistently good team for the past decade?
Doesn't change that we had 27K for a game under him.
And Everton have a smaller ground which will drag the average attendance down. And about 10% of that is restricted view seats IIRC.
No it doesn't but the average attendance is a much fairer reflection of support than any one game. The main post is suggesting that Everton's support is much better than ours - I don't buy it - take last season where our average was 33,900 and theirs was 33,300, despite us witnessing probably the worst football at VP in probably 20 years.
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I think performances haven't helped. Unfortunately you will always have a decent proportion of the crowd who are resolutely silent (like where I sat in Trinity on Saturday) but it's the rest who normally help keep the atmosphere going, if they're quiet then you really notice it.
I tried singing myself in the trinity on Saturday but it's bloody hard work and embarrassing being the only one in the whole stand.
When I used to go to Trinity as a kid, they didn't sing much but would normally make some noise, bang their feet or something, it might as well be a theatre these days.
I like to think that with a bit more excitement (ie: more than 0) people will get more involved.
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Everton only got 32.5K against Newcastle this season, despite being contenders for the Champs League.
A Monday night game. And their 4th match of the season, a bit generous to call them CL contenders after 3 games.
You're missing my point. Its being alleged here that Everton are better supported than us yet their crowds are not all that dissimilar - this is but one example (in a season when the press are touting them as CL contenders and after having beaten Manure)
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It's just the way it is now. Away fans make the noise. You get the teams with 'Anthems' like liverpool and West ham who artificially join in before kick when prompted by the PA, but by and large home teams don't sing until they score.
Another factor is an away crowd tends to drink more, for that is our footy culture :-), and so is more inclined to sing. Having taken my son to Southampton and Fulham and been sober, you don't half notice how boozed up people are.
As I will be tomorrow when the atmosphere will be rockin in the away end.
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I really don't care about win ratio nor the fact that Liverpool apparently have a massive fan base.
Newcastle win no matches or have won honours in the recent history than we have done and they have much higher gates than us.
Liverpool may well have a massive worldwide fan base but they live in a city about the 1/3 the size of ours.
So it is shameful that people of Birmingham can not turn up in decent numbers to fill a 40K stadium.
Liverpool may be smaller than Brum, but they've got huge support from all over the North West (well, left of the M6 mostly) including places like Runcorn, Widnes, St Helens, Wigan, Warrington, Birkenhead, Southport and even further afield like Chester and Wrexham. All medium to big towns with traditionally no big football teams in them. You add up the population of all those and it'll be huge. Birmingham has big urban areas around it, but they've got their own decent sized teams, eg Wolverhampton, Sandwell and Coventry. I know we get our fair share of supporters from places like Worcester and Cheltenham etc, but to be fair they don't strike me as being as football mad as run down towns like Widnes etc.
I've heard this argument bandied around a lot and never really believed it so I've just done some research.
The Government splits the country down into regions with populations as follows (taken from Wikipedia):
West Mids - 5.6m
North West - 7.05m
North East - 2.6m
League football clubs covered by the regions above are (from Wikipedia and a bit of common sense):
West Mids - Us, Blues, Cov, Stoke, Vale, Wolves, Baggies, Walsall, Shrewsbury, Burton A, Crewe, Cheltenham and Hereford
North West - Man U, Man City, Liverpool, Everton, Tranmere, Bolton, Bury, Oldham, Rochdale, Wigan, Preston, Burnley, Blackpool, Blackburn, Macclesfield and Rotherham
North East - Newcaslte, Sunderland, Middlesborough and Hartlepool
The sum of the average attendances in 2011 for all the clubs listed in each region are (taken from European-Football-Statistics.co.uk:
West Mids - 186,253
North West - 329,221
North East - 106,931
If you then calculate a percentage of local population attending one of the local grounds each game you get:
West Mids - 3.33%
North West - 4.67%
North East - 4.11%
So we're way below those areas in terms of attendance. If the West Mids could get to the North East level of participation there would be an extra 44,000 people attending each game across all our clubs.
I've said it before, for me the reason for the difference is cultural. The North West and Newcastle are football mad (although a lot of the clubs in the North West are actually historically rugby league towns so they're changing the culture round there and arguably punching above their weight). The West Mids however just isn't as fanatical about football. I've no idea why. It can't just be down to success as the North East has had no success for years. Any ideas?
This is a bit of a pet hate of mine, this myth that Geordies are ALL football mad.
For a start they are a one club town. But its not just one town, its Gateshead, North Shields, South Shields, Whitley Bay and so on. In fact the conurbation of Newcastle and surrounding areas (Tyneside) numbers 1 million people. So that is a city the size of Birmingham supporting one club. Whereas we have 3 clubs in our city limits.
Another crucial factor in my opinion is that Newcastle is 90% white whereas Birmingham is around 60% white. And lets face it, the vast majority of people who attend matches are white, disproportionately so in a city as racially diverse as Birmingham.
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Everton only got 32.5K against Newcastle this season, despite being contenders for the Champs League.
A Monday night game. And their 4th match of the season, a bit generous to call them CL contenders after 3 games.
You're missing my point. Its being alleged here that Everton are better supported than us yet their crowds are not all that dissimilar - this is but one example (in a season when the press are touting them as CL contenders and after having beaten Manure)
I'd agree that the support of both clubs is pretty similar. If the clubs had near identical seasons I doubt there'd be much in it average wise. Unless both sides had very good seasons, then i'd expect us to be higher as we can fit an extra 3K in.
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If the results were better and there was more cause for optimism I think we would be two or three thousand better off per game.
Villa Park hasn't been a particularly happy place the past few years. Like it or not, but every club has what have been described as 'fairweather fans' but I remember last season even some of the most hardcore villa fans on this forum were finding it hard to summon the interest to go down to Villa Park last season.
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Decent crowds are generated by a combination of winning, entertainment and decent 'star' players. Considering we have none of these 33k is pretty good. Our critics are eager to state how fickle we are but considering where we are now compared to the team we had with the England midfield we are not as fickle as many would think. However, the pricing against the big boys is ridiculous especially as we need a decent crowd to get behind the team. Not many armchair fans are going to part with £40+ to see their team played off the pitch are they?
This annoys me greatly. Opposing fans and some in the media will tell us how terrible we are (as a football team..) and then in the same breathe, slam the villa fans for a) being fickle, and b) all the empty seats at Villa Park. Doesn't make sense, does it? The fact that so many have turned up, particularly over the course of the last couple of seasons, should be commended. It also doesn't help that when there are empty seats at Villa Park, they're always very visible on TV coverage; front rows of the Holte, Lower Trinity Wings and the Lower North under the CF restaurant. Whereas, with Everton, because the majority of their 'restricted view' seats are in the upper tiers, the lower tiers sell out first. So your pundits and your everyday football fan that likes to make judgements based on six minutes of Match of the Day coverage will assume it's full. Going by the comments of opposing fans and pundits you would never think that, in fact, ours and Everton's crowds are always very similar and indeed under TSM, we finished with a higher average attendance than them.
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For me Villa Park just isn't a magical place anymore prinipally because of the loss of the Holte and the Trinity.
Now it looks soulless and unspiring.
There's also something particularly conspicuous and depressing about empty sky blue seats.
Why are most of our seats that colour anyway when it's only our secondary colour?
Paint them claret for God's sake, we don't want to look like the Ricoh!
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I cannot agree with that. Villa Park looks immense.
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I cannot agree with that. Villa Park looks immense.
Agreed. Probably the most attractive stadium in the PL. It is beautiful.
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Won 1 of our last 19 PL games, and 3 of the last 28.
It's not really difficult to work out why the attendances are shite.
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Won 1 of our last 19 PL games, and 3 of the last 28.
It's not really difficult to work out why the attendances are shite.
That is one frightening stat. How are we still a Premier League club?
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We still get 30,000+ for every home game, despite years of tripe. Our fans are brilliant.
It's easy to focus on the empty seats, hats off to those who turn up every match.
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I cannot agree with that. Villa Park looks immense.
Agreed. Probably the most attractive stadium in the PL. It is beautiful.
It needs finishing.
The Trinity is still a bit of a mess, particularly the bit that disappears down by the North Stand.
Maybe the old Trinity had to go, but I'd have hoped by now that a guy more sensitive to our history than Ellis (as RL supposedly is) might have made more of an effort to give the new stand a bit of self respect.
The roof slopes down like the old one, so a replica of the gable (as Sheffield Wednesday, Notts County and a few others have managed) with the lion rampant wouldn't be impossible. A better replica of the old claret and blue balcony rather than the current cheap looking effort would be a nice touch too.
A re-design of the exterior, incorporating a design similar traditional red brick facade has proved popular at baseball grounds in the US, and would help to make the approach look more like Villa Park rather than an industrial estate.
The goalpost structure that supports the Holte roof looks naff with the exposed steelwork, as does the shed they've stuck in the corner for Sky/ BBC et.c. Ibrox illustrates what can be done to give the corners a better finish, whilst still keeping the stands separate.
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Won 1 of our last 19 PL games, and 3 of the last 28.
It's not really difficult to work out why the attendances are shite.
That is one frightening stat. How are we still a Premier League club?
Last season finished at the right time.
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Won 1 of our last 19 PL games, and 3 of the last 28.
It's not really difficult to work out why the attendances are shite.
Indeed it is incomprehensibly bad. Fans can be criticised for not attending all you want, but those statistics show that the team really hasn't deserved much support. Frankly the attendances have been decent given the dross that has been served up.
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Won 1 of our last 19 PL games, and 3 of the last 28.
It's not really difficult to work out why the attendances are shite.
Indeed it is incomprehensibly bad. Fans can be criticised for not attending all you want, but those statistics show that the team really hasn't deserved much support. Frankly the attendances have been decent given the dross that has been served up.
Absolutely.
I missed the Swansea game as I was on holiday so my season ticket has given me 1 victory in the last 12 months.
I work that out at £500 a victory - bargain!!!
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Won 1 of our last 19 PL games, and 3 of the last 28.
It's not really difficult to work out why the attendances are shite.
Indeed it is incomprehensibly bad. Fans can be criticised for not attending all you want, but those statistics show that the team really hasn't deserved much support. Frankly the attendances have been decent given the dross that has been served up.
Absolutely.
I missed the Swansea game as I was on holiday so my season ticket has given me 1 victory in the last 12 months.
I work that out at £500 a victory - bargain!!!
Me too i missed the Swanse game due to a wedding, and i missed our last minute winner against Fulham i had left by then.
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Nothing better to do this evening.
Not exactly fortress Villa Park is it... winning fewer than half our home matches for the last fours years is hardly going to attract a fair-weather supporters.
11/12 4 wins 33873
10/11 8 wins 37194
09/10 8 wins 38573
08/09 7 wins 39812
07/08 10 wins 40029
06/07 7 wins 36214
05/06 6 wins 34112
04/05 8 wins 37354
03/04 9 wins 36622
02/03 11 wins 34975
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Nothing better to do this evening.
Not exactly fortress Villa Park is it... winning fewer than half our home matches for the last fours years is hardly going to attract a fair-weather supporters.
11/12 4 wins 33873
10/11 8 wins 37194
09/10 8 wins 38573
08/09 7 wins 39812
07/08 10 wins 40029
06/07 7 wins 36214
05/06 6 wins 34112
04/05 8 wins 37354
03/04 9 wins 36622
02/03 11 wins 34975
Jesus, only 2 seasons out of 10 where we've won more than 50% at home, thats not great.
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We still get 30,000+ for every home game, despite years of tripe. Our fans are brilliant.
It's easy to focus on the empty seats, hats off to those who turn up every match.
Agreed that our fans the 30000 or so who are there every home game are brilliant however there are 5x that in and around Birmingham who can't be bothered. I would like just 10% of those to get to VP. I accept that there are economic and other reasons why we shouldn't expect anymore.
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To be honest it takes something quite spectacularly incompetent to have a record as bad as ours, it really does. It's an absolutely appalling record.
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It would be interesting to see how many people go to one game/two games/three games etc per season. I doubt there is another big club in the country with a fluctuating support so large.
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We still get 30,000+ for every home game, despite years of tripe. Our fans are brilliant.
It's easy to focus on the empty seats, hats off to those who turn up every match.
Agreed that our fans the 30000 or so who are there every home game are brilliant however there are 5x that in and around Birmingham who can't be bothered. I would like just 10% of those to get to VP. I accept that there are economic and other reasons why we shouldn't expect anymore.
the fact that we dont win play awful football and face yet another season tryi g to avoid relegation, hold on to your seats
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True but, and I'm only guessing here, I doubt there's any club in the country with as poor a record over the same period.
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Winning only 4 in every 10 games over the last 10 years is hardly inspiring, let alone the last two years.
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4 in every 10 at the moment would be a start at the moment.
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It would be interesting to see how many people go to one game/two games/three games etc per season. I doubt there is another big club in the country with a fluctuating support so large.
This touches on something I've always said - there can't be many clubs in the country with a higher ratio of passive fans to active supporters. All around the Midlands there are great swathes of Villa fans who watch us on TV and might buy a shirt but would never dream of going to a match. Then, as you say, there are a massive amount who go to the big games but don't come to the lesser ones.
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It would be interesting to see how many people go to one game/two games/three games etc per season. I doubt there is another big club in the country with a fluctuating support so large.
This touches on something I've always said - there can't be many clubs in the country with a higher ratio of passive fans to active supporters. All around the Midlands there are great swathes of Villa fans who watch us on TV and might buy a shirt but would never dream of going to a match. Then, as you say, there are a massive amount who go to the big games but don't come to the lesser ones.
I've always found the last point a bit odd. From my perspective I'd much rather go to the 'lesser' games and see Villa outplay a team and win. Obviously that isn't happening at the moment, but in theory it's what should happen.
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It would be interesting to see how many people go to one game/two games/three games etc per season. I doubt there is another big club in the country with a fluctuating support so large.
This touches on something I've always said - there can't be many clubs in the country with a higher ratio of passive fans to active supporters. All around the Midlands there are great swathes of Villa fans who watch us on TV and might buy a shirt but would never dream of going to a match. Then, as you say, there are a massive amount who go to the big games but don't come to the lesser ones.
Isn't that a criticism we level at that lot down the road?
Maybe we're not that different! ;)
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It would be interesting to see how many people go to one game/two games/three games etc per season. I doubt there is another big club in the country with a fluctuating support so large.
This touches on something I've always said - there can't be many clubs in the country with a higher ratio of passive fans to active supporters. All around the Midlands there are great swathes of Villa fans who watch us on TV and might buy a shirt but would never dream of going to a match. Then, as you say, there are a massive amount who go to the big games but don't come to the lesser ones.
Isn't that a criticism we level at that lot down the road?
Maybe we're not that different! ;)
They have a good few supporters who buy the shirt, wear the bollocks round their neck, hate the Villa, live and breath Small Heath but will never go to the match. We have supporters lwho turn up and a lot of fans who watch us on TV. Therein lies the difference.
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It's not just the big games though. We have, at best, 20000 season ticket holders, add 2000 away fans and 1000 corporate seats means that even for a game like Norwich we sell around 10000 "walk-up" tickets.
To convert these though they need to be entertained otherwise they won't come back to the next game or the one after that.
I bet Villa are unique with having such a high proportion of non-season ticket holder making up the attendance, with how we are playing that's not going to change anytime soon sadly.
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It's not just the big games though. We have, at best, 20000 season ticket holders, add 2000 away fans and 1000 corporate seats means that even for a game like Norwich we sell around 10000 "walk-up" tickets.
To convert these though they need to be entertained otherwise they won't come back to the next game or the one after that.
I bet Villa are unique with having such a high proportion of non-season ticket holder making up the attendance, with how we are playing that's not going to change anytime soon sadly.
We've never had a great number of season ticket holders simply because you've never need one. I can't remember any game in my Villa-supporting life when tickets haven't been available to anyone who got there early enough.
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particularly fans from further away, every time you go it is dissapointment and think thank god i have got that out of my system for a while
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I've taken my son to 5 games in the last couple of years and they have all been bloody terrible, he hasn't asked to go to a match since Wigan away last season thankfully!
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It's not just the big games though. We have, at best, 20000 season ticket holders, add 2000 away fans and 1000 corporate seats means that even for a game like Norwich we sell around 10000 "walk-up" tickets.
To convert these though they need to be entertained otherwise they won't come back to the next game or the one after that.
I bet Villa are unique with having such a high proportion of non-season ticket holder making up the attendance, with how we are playing that's not going to change anytime soon sadly.
We've never had a great number of season ticket holders simply because you've never need one. I can't remember any game in my Villa-supporting life when tickets haven't been available to anyone who got there early enough.
One of the drawbacks (or advantages - depending which way you look at it) of having a relatively big ground.
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One of the drawbacks (or advantages - depending which way you look at it) of having a relatively big ground.
Which has also never had any large membership schemes. To Doug's credit, when the government were trying to force clubs to have 50% members-only areas in the eighties he refused.
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For me Villa Park just isn't a magical place anymore prinipally because of the loss of the Holte and the Trinity.
Now it looks soulless and unspiring.
There's also something particularly conspicuous and depressing about empty sky blue seats.
Why are most of our seats that colour anyway when it's only our secondary colour?
Paint them claret for God's sake, we don't want to look like the Ricoh!
Nonsense. If you want to see a soulless ground go and look at Sunderland or Derby, Arsenal, Bolton or any other new identikit stadia across the land. Our team is shite at the moment that's why the atmosphere seems awful at Villa Park. Our atmosphere has always mirrored what occurs on the pitch. Villa Park is one of the last great football stadiums in this country with tradition, inspiration, history and more importantly, soul.
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It's not just the big games though. We have, at best, 20000 season ticket holders, add 2000 away fans and 1000 corporate seats means that even for a game like Norwich we sell around 10000 "walk-up" tickets.
To convert these though they need to be entertained otherwise they won't come back to the next game or the one after that.
I bet Villa are unique with having such a high proportion of non-season ticket holder making up the attendance, with how we are playing that's not going to change anytime soon sadly.
We've never had a great number of season ticket holders simply because you've never need one. I can't remember any game in my Villa-supporting life when tickets haven't been available to anyone who got there early enough.
Villa - Spurs when Bosnich knocked out Kilinsmann. I may be mistaken but I seem to remember that was sold out good and proper.
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It's not just the big games though. We have, at best, 20000 season ticket holders, add 2000 away fans and 1000 corporate seats means that even for a game like Norwich we sell around 10000 "walk-up" tickets.
To convert these though they need to be entertained otherwise they won't come back to the next game or the one after that.
I bet Villa are unique with having such a high proportion of non-season ticket holder making up the attendance, with how we are playing that's not going to change anytime soon sadly.
We've never had a great number of season ticket holders simply because you've never need one. I can't remember any game in my Villa-supporting life when tickets haven't been available to anyone who got there early enough.
Villa - Spurs when Bosnich knocked out Kilinsmann. I may be mistaken but I seem to remember that was sold out good and proper.
We've had sell-out games but you could always get tickets if you bought them in advance. I meant get there early to queue when they went on sale or the turnstiles opened rather than some Seattle Villainesque love nor money dream scenario
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And then to contrast you hear talk of Arsenal/Spurs/Newcastle/Liverpool having thousands on a season ticket waiting list.
Actually, I'm sure I heard Arsenal have over 40k on a waiting list. Surely that can't be right?
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And then to contrast you hear talk of Arsenal/Spurs/Newcastle/Liverpool having thousands on a season ticket waiting list.
Actually, I'm sure I heard Arsenal have over 40k on a waiting list. Surely that can't be right?
Never believed any of that.
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And then to contrast you hear talk of Arsenal/Spurs/Newcastle/Liverpool having thousands on a season ticket waiting list.
Actually, I'm sure I heard Arsenal have over 40k on a waiting list. Surely that can't be right?
Never believed any of that.
Arsenal claim to have 40k on a waiting list but a quick scan of their forums seems to indicate that you don't have to wait very long for one.
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And then to contrast you hear talk of Arsenal/Spurs/Newcastle/Liverpool having thousands on a season ticket waiting list.
Actually, I'm sure I heard Arsenal have over 40k on a waiting list. Surely that can't be right?
Never believed any of that.
Arsenal claim to have 40k on a waiting list but a quick scan of their forums seems to indicate that you don't have to wait very long for one.
It's all PR bullshit.
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Apparently fish and chips at the Emirates costs £13.90. Someone on R5 on Saturday lunch time was attempting to justify prices charged by Arsenal in general as a reason for their fans' expectation levels.
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Apparently fish and chips at the Emirates costs £13.90. Someone on R5 on Saturday lunch time was attempting to justify prices charged by Arsenal in general as a reason for their fans' expectation levels.
Bet they wish they were back at Highbury.
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Apparently fish and chips at the Emirates costs £13.90. Someone on R5 on Saturday lunch time was attempting to justify prices charged by Arsenal in general as a reason for their fans' expectation levels.
I heard that too Lizz. They were saying that it is all fine and dandy to claim they are in transition again, but if you charge the highest prices in the league and pay one of the highest managers' salaries too then the fans have the right to caterwaul when they don't get success.
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Apparently fish and chips at the Emirates costs £13.90. Someone on R5 on Saturday lunch time was attempting to justify prices charged by Arsenal in general as a reason for their fans' expectation levels.
I heard that too Lizz. They were saying that it is all fine and dandy to claim they are in transition again, but if you charge the highest prices in the league and pay one of the highest managers' salaries too then the fans have the right to caterwaul when they don't get success.
Two years ago we were standing outside the ground when some of their supporters staged a protest march. Nobody could understand what they had to complain about.
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It's not just the big games though. We have, at best, 20000 season ticket holders, add 2000 away fans and 1000 corporate seats means that even for a game like Norwich we sell around 10000 "walk-up" tickets.
Pretty sure one of the papers, the Mail I think, reported in the summer that we'd sold our largest number of season of tickets since 07/08 or 08/09, I can't remember. But definitely remember a figure of 25k being mentioned. Your reckoning of 20,000 at best seems rather low.
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Apparently fish and chips at the Emirates costs £13.90. Someone on R5 on Saturday lunch time was attempting to justify prices charged by Arsenal in general as a reason for their fans' expectation levels.
I heard that too Lizz. They were saying that it is all fine and dandy to claim they are in transition again, but if you charge the highest prices in the league and pay one of the highest managers' salaries too then the fans have the right to caterwaul when they don't get success.
Two years ago we were standing outside the ground when some of their supporters staged a protest march. Nobody could understand what they had to complain about.
14 quid fish & chips is a start.
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When you only see a win at VP about every 3 months its difficult to keep 40,000 interested.
Or, despite me and MVJunior travelling to about 6 games a season (typically 4 home, 2 away), not seeing a win in over 3 seasons.
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Within my circle of friends, there are a good 13/14 villa fans amongst us, the majority of us have been going down the villa all our lives up until the last few years. We're now in our early 20's and the only thing that attracts us now are away days, does anyone else find it worrying that this could become a common occurrence within the younger fan ?
Are people just generally losing interest in the game ?
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Within my circle of friends, there are a good 13/14 villa fans amongst us, the majority of us have been going down the villa all our lives up until the last few years. We're now in our early 20's and the only thing that attracts us now are away days, does anyone else find it worrying that this could become a common occurrence within the younger fan ?
Are people just generally losing interest in the game ?
Not really, I'm in my early 30's and I prefer aways. I think most people do actually, and aways in the smoke in particular are always a top laugh.
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Footballs just generally not as fun anymore. Less likeable characters and not so many standout players who can light up a game. 15-25 years ago most top flight clubs had at least one edge of your seat player. I mean a shite club like Southampton had Le Tiss for years. The better players seem largely reserved for the bigger clubs as it's more about money now. Players largely have to be superfit nowadays and like how a lot of youth set ups run here, they look for speed and strength ahead of technical ability perhaps. More and more finnicky rules mean games don't always flow as well as they did and there's less blood and thunder. With how much money is now at steak, lesser sides don't want to risk carrying more mercurial talents. You'd never really see a club like a lower-mid club like Sheff Wed circa 15 odd years ago having Carbone and Di Canio in the same side now for example. If they were top flight today they'd probably have 11 players who'd work hard every game, play a very simple game and lack that spark the above players might give you, but conversely they could both go missing one rainy away game and leave the team to get twonked 5-0.
Weird thing when I was watching the Norwich game was that on the dodgy pirate signal that was being piped into the Thai bar I was watching from, they announced that Efan Ekoku was on the commentary team. It brought a smile to my face. Not so much because he was a decent player by any stretch but he was from a better age of football IMO.
Players are getting even more rich and are just becoming even more distanced from the fans now. I used to like our players and other players. The villains like Jones, even Dimmock, were great in a pantomime sense. Now to be honest, most of the Prem players just come across as spoiled prima donnas. It's not really the case with all of them, and maybe isn't fair to generalise them all, but generally fans don't particularly have much fondness for most Prem stars now, even from their own team. Marketing and money has taken over the game.
If I count the amount of Villa players in the last 10 years who I've just not liked at all. It'd be far higher than the previous 10-15 before that. It's not just about success either. The naivity of youth is part of it too. In my younger days it never dawned on me that Dalian Atkinson was a lazy sod for example. But he was one of my favourite players.
Atmospheres aren't as good as they used to be. The new stadiums feel soulless compared to the ones replaced. I know a Goons far who hates the Emirates. I'd hate our ground if we built a new one too. VP all the way! But yeah, it's not just us, it's a general thing. Glory hunters and part time fans don't flock to our ground either, they go to the bigger London clubs, or Manchester. We don't get that brigade which brings in extra revenue but again you could argue adds nothing and perhaps even detracts from the stadiums atmos.
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The atmosphere in the ground was always a major thing for me at VP, if the crowd were up for it and together I'd want to go back and be part of it no matter what. I wonder if the passion would return if we went down... and came back up again? Not that you'd wish for that of course.
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Apparently fish and chips at the Emirates costs £13.90. Someone on R5 on Saturday lunch time was attempting to justify prices charged by Arsenal in general as a reason for their fans' expectation levels.
I heard that too Lizz. They were saying that it is all fine and dandy to claim they are in transition again, but if you charge the highest prices in the league and pay one of the highest managers' salaries too then the fans have the right to caterwaul when they don't get success.
When you look at the revenue arsenal bring in and their huge gates its quite shameful that they haven't won a trophy in 7 years- they certainly have the money to compete but seem content with 4th place in the boardroom.
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Another thing about our attendances, we haven't had a bit of foreign flair since... what, JPA? And Carbone before that? And they were hardly consistent.
People scoff, and winning football is the major factor, but in my life time our better players have either tended to be centre halves or English (and for whatever reason not everyone takes to them - Young, Downing...)
I mean look at the way Carew united the crowd and got the atmosphere rocking.
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Apparently fish and chips at the Emirates costs £13.90. Someone on R5 on Saturday lunch time was attempting to justify prices charged by Arsenal in general as a reason for their fans' expectation levels.
I heard that too Lizz. They were saying that it is all fine and dandy to claim they are in transition again, but if you charge the highest prices in the league and pay one of the highest managers' salaries too then the fans have the right to caterwaul when they don't get success.
When you look at the revenue arsenal bring in and their huge gates its quite shameful that they haven't won a trophy in 7 years- they certainly have the money to compete but seem content with 4th place in the boardroom.
That is ridiculous for fish and chips 13.90, bloody hell, that's just shameful. Do you get a whole fresh salmon or what ?
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That is ridiculous for fish and chips 13.90, bloody hell, that's just shameful. Do you get a whole fresh salmon or what ?
Brilliant, Dan!
£13.90 is ridiculous. I'd be interested to know how many people actually pay it.
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That is ridiculous for fish and chips 13.90, bloody hell, that's just shameful. Do you get a whole fresh salmon or what ?
Brilliant, Dan!
£13.90 is ridiculous. I'd be interested to know how many people actually pay it.
I wouldn'tpay it that's for sure. It is just a blatant rip off. What profit margin do they work on at Arsenal i wonder ?
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I was in a box with my employer for the first competitive game at the Emirates ( oh the heady optimism of MON and Olof's header) and I met the head of catering there.
IIRC it was an American company and the main man was proudly telling me about the quality of the grub, and cited the fact that the hot dog sausages were imported from Germany. Maybe they have a trout farm where they were planning to keep a trophy room?
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Another thing about our attendances, we haven't had a bit of foreign flair since... what, JPA? And Carbone before that? And they were hardly consistent.
People scoff, and winning football is the major factor, but in my life time our better players have either tended to be centre halves or English (and for whatever reason not everyone takes to them - Young, Downing...)
I mean look at the way Carew united the crowd and got the atmosphere rocking.
Nail on the head for me.
Carbone's debut was fantastic and the games I got to see with Merson were just phenomenal. Seeing players with flair, that's what gets the crowds in and why shouldn't it be?
All this bollocks about only the result counting. I don't need Villa to win every game but I want to enjoy watching them play and have players I can look forward to seeing. In short, I'm paying 35 quid, I want some good football and entertainment.
And it's not like exciting football and results are mutually exclusive anyway.
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Fans love cult heroes and flair (mixed in with a team that gives '110%') - that attracts fans, not cheap pies or face painting.
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We just go up the Villa - it's what we do - now my lad comes as well - we'll keep doing until we die - won't stop us moaning though!
The Premiership nearly drove me away but when I see Arsenal with all that cash can't win a raffle I just shifted my viewpoint to enjoying everything around the match (not the fooking "matchday experience" bollocks) and having a laugh at how shit we are.
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That is ridiculous for fish and chips 13.90, bloody hell, that's just shameful. Do you get a whole fresh salmon or what ?
Brilliant, Dan!
£13.90 is ridiculous. I'd be interested to know how many people actually pay it.
I wouldn'tpay it that's for sure. It is just a blatant rip off. What profit margin do they work on at Arsenal i wonder
Blimey. Can't be standard fish and chips like from a chippy. Got to be posh nosh that.
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I know for a fact a pie at old trafford cost us 2.75 and cost them 38p. Same as burnley, blackburn and liverpool.
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That is ridiculous for fish and chips 13.90, bloody hell, that's just shameful. Do you get a whole fresh salmon or what ?
Brilliant, Dan!
£13.90 is ridiculous. I'd be interested to know how many people actually pay it.
I wouldn'tpay it that's for sure. It is just a blatant rip off. What profit margin do they work on at Arsenal i wonder
Blimey. Can't be standard fish and chips like from a chippy. Got to be posh nosh that.
Chips in the shape of a tower with mushy pea puree i bet
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Hand-cut, tripple-cooked Jenga chips, no doubt. With line-caught halibut.
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Hand-cut, tripple-cooked Jenga chips, no doubt. With line-caught halibut.
Are those chips orange?
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Hand-cut, tripple-cooked Jenga chips, no doubt. With line-caught halibut.
Are those chips orange?
Only in Tipton and Bilston.