Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Mister E on March 15, 2012, 07:16:07 PM
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Watching Ath Bilbao - as I am for the first time since I saw them live against the Villa in the 1970's - leads me to suggest that there is a tailor-made model for the future in B6.
- a balance of youth and experience.
- each player technically gifted.
- a fantastic game of pressure and energy when not with the ball.
- a freshness and invention when in possession.
A squad constructed from the academy and with regional qualification-criteria, it may well not win anything this season, or even next. But, it is full of enthusiasm, skill and focus.
With our emerging core of academy-developed players, surely it's time to take a leaf out of the Basque book of footballing philosophy and play a fresh, energetic and positive game-play.
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Makes you wonder how they are only 7th in the league. Kind of pisses on the Sky theory that the PL is where it's at when the current favourites to win the league are currently getting cornholed by a side 7th in it's league after failing in another competition against a Basle side that conceded 7 against Bayern.
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Makes you wonder how they are only 7th in the league. Kind of pisses on the Sky theory that the PL is where it's at when the current favourites to win the league are currently getting cornholed by a side 7th in it's league after failing in another competition against a Basle side that conceded 7 against Bayern.
Yes, good observation re Sky.
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They do have a highly skilled coach though,something which we lack.
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They do have a highly skilled coach though,something which we lack.
But it's the sheer energy and freshness that is so impressive; and - yes - it is about having a coach with a philosophy that encourages these things; but it's deeper than that - it's the club culture and values that develop the sort of footie I'm watching tonight.
BTW Bilbao should be 4-5 ahead, not 2.
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They do have a highly skilled coach though,something which we lack.
They have never been relegated though, whether they have a great coach or not, there is something far more deep rooted than having a decent coach at the moment
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The closing down they just did this late into the game is breath taking and should have led to another goal.
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It's like an FA cup tie - lower league team, early round style. Pity their striker went off, they should have had a few more....
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Impossible to recreate here, too many idiots involved in kids football who are more concerned with results rather than educating kids in how to play football the right way.
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Impossible to recreate here, too many idiots involved in kids football who are more concerned with results rather than educating kids in how to play football the right way.
know what you mean but things are changing ... and our Academy does seem to be doing something right.
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Impossible to recreate here, too many idiots involved in kids football who are more concerned with results rather than educating kids in how to play football the right way.
Not impossible, but it would require a fresh start. I encourage and expect my kids to play 'total' football. I coach them to play like Barcelona, not Aston Villa! The result is not the be-all and end-all. Winning is nice, but the way the game is played is far more important.
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Impossible to recreate here, too many idiots involved in kids football who are more concerned with results rather than educating kids in how to play football the right way.
know what you mean but things are changing ... and our Academy does seem to be doing something right.
Yes, our Academy are doing things right from U-9s to the reserves.
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So you're teaching them the Albion way then Leeg?
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Impossible to recreate here, too many idiots involved in kids football who are more concerned with results rather than educating kids in how to play football the right way.
know what you mean but things are changing ... and our Academy does seem to be doing something right.
I don't see that things are changing that drastically, hopefully when this 9 aside till u13's fully kicks in it will take away the athletic kids dominating the game and the more skilful/intelligent players rising to the top.
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It's 7-a-side until U-12.
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So you're teaching them the Albion way then Leeg?
No, I expect far better.
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It's 7-a-side until U-12.
Even better then!
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It's 7-a-side until U-12.
Not here in Coventry. 7 a side till u11 then 9v9 till u13s
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It's 7v7 up to U-11s. I'll ask/find out on Sunday what it is for U-12s onwards.
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(http://www.clubnewsletter.co.uk/2011/feb/images/Formats.png)
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I don't see that things are changing that drastically,
I do.
I coached junior football for 12 years and took a fairly traditional approach - inclusive and ensuring that the guys played football for skill and enjoyment as well as looking at the results.
My son coaches junior football in Mexico and, as well as having some FA coaching badges, he uses the Coerver coaching approach. This - and other similar approaches - are much more common now and it augurs well.
The big problem in England is that we simply do not have enough junior coaches; I suppose because there is not the remuneration available (leading to too many enthusiastic amateurs like me).
But back to the original post: the Bilbao approach is about culture, footballing philosphy and commitment to the long-term. Can it be a model for success in B6?
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We could do a lot worse than emulate their style and fans attiutde.
Their fans have always been favourites with those of us who have met them, loyal, loud, proud, gracious in victory and philosophical in defeat - what we used to be.
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What a performance and what a team, basically a bunch of kids just gave a masterclass performance and a lesson of pure footballing technique to our very best, breathless and this team are Spain's 7th best.
Nothing Villa can learn from this but if I was Ferguson I woulds seriously give myself a long look in the mirror and change my thought pattern in terms of countless zillions being spent on overseas players that looked nothing in front of what was predominantly and mostly Spanish kids and local kids at that.
Is this not the way football used to be before football became addicted to Champions League exorbitant transfer fee's for foreign players and the notion that in order to compete in the Champions League you have to spend vast amounts of money on players from all over the world when your better options are actually right under your nose.
Great football and if I was Abramovich I would move heaven and earth to get that bloke in charge of Athletico.
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Nothing Villa can learn from this
Why do you think this?
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We could do a lot worse than emulate their style and fans attiutde.
Their fans have always been favourites with those of us who have met them, loyal, loud, proud, gracious in victory and philosophical in defeat - what we used to be.
Met some great Athletic Bilbao lads who were over watching Villa for the weekend from the HTN ultras group, fantastic passion for their team.
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the football pyramid is an ideal model for success in football in england and we should be the ideal model for coaching kids as all the resources should be there, but the money in the pyramid does not flow down hill and everyone other than the elite scraps for every penny just so a game of football can be put on.
enthusiastic amateur coaches(parents etc) make do with the limited resources they have. the stats for coaches in england v spain and germany are disgraceful, but as long as we have buffoons like sir dave richards pontificating on an international stage about fifa stealing football from the owners england we are big time in the shit!
i was speaking to a guy who has a recruitment business and evry position at the fa is paid 4 times they should be as it is such an old boys network!
we are destined for failure till the professional clubs stop paying money to overpaid primadonnas and it starts getting filtered to youth development then it wil be the same story!
if you always do what youve always done, you will always get what you always got!
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... if you always do what youve always done, you will always get what you always got!
Yeah, but Villa doesn't have to follow the old model, does it?
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... if you always do what youve always done, you will always get what you always got!
Yeah, but Villa doesn't have to follow the old model, does it?
villa's youth system is a treasure that needs to be polished. the problem is the gems are easily obtained by others. the gems get tempted too easily by the lure of bigger money elsewhere. just the way of life i suppose. there is no honour in english football at all!
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It's like an FA cup tie - lower league team, early round style. Pity their striker went off, they should have had a few more....
It was nothing like that. This AB team is full of zest and skill with a coach who has outwitted Fergie.
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It's like an FA cup tie - lower league team, early round style. Pity their striker went off, they should have had a few more....
It was nothing like that. This AB team is full of zest and skill with a coach who has outwitted Fergie.
Agreed
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Apparently their fitness training regime is brutally demanding. Ged tried that on our overpaid old geezers and cause a right old kerfuffle with the lazy mercenaries led by Richer Bunne.
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It's like an FA cup tie - lower league team, early round style. Pity their striker went off, they should have had a few more....
It was nothing like that. This AB team is full of zest and skill with a coach who has outwitted Fergie.
They simply used the Manure model to outwit Manure. Speed, movement and swift counter attacks. It shows that in the same way only the English people/media think the English national team can win a competition, only the English media think the EPL is the best in the world.
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It shows that in the same way only the English people/media think the English national team can win a competition...
I think England can win the Euros? I wasn't sure before but now you've let me know what I think...
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It shows that in the same way only the English people/media think the English national team can win a competition...
I think England can win the Euros? I wasn't sure before but now you've let me know what I think...
Sandie Shaw won it single handed.
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Apparently their fitness training regime is brutally demanding. Ged tried that on our overpaid old geezers and cause a right old kerfuffle with the lazy mercenaries led by Richer Bunne.
Which says all you need to know about the choice of personnel and the team being bigger tahn the personalities.
Doesn't make the Bilbao model wrong.
So, who's prepared to chip into a fund to pay for McL to spend 2-3 weeks over with Bilbao this summer to learn the ropes? - might prove more valuable than going to learn from the Browns.
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It shows that in the same way only the English people/media think the English national team can win a competition...
I think England can win the Euros? I wasn't sure before but now you've let me know what I think...
Well I didn't know I had mind control. It is actually a reference to the opinions of the foreign media regarding the quality of English football, and how we put it on a pedestal it doesn't deserve.
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It shows that in the same way only the English people/media think the English national team can win a competition...
I think England can win the Euros? I wasn't sure before but now you've let me know what I think...
Well I didn't know I had mind control. It is actually a reference to the opinions of the foreign media regarding the quality of English football, and how we put it on a pedestal it doesn't deserve.
I got what you meant, Vanilla
We (the English as a populace, not necessarily all individuals) are happy to buy into this "EPL is the best league in the world" bollox. That is a myth peddled by Sky and the extremely lazy printed press. Why it it that every time I pick up a tabloid and turn to the back page every story is about football - as though it was the only sport in existence. Dont they get bored of writing the same thing day in day out?
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Why is it everytime a side does well, we're straight away talking about how their model should be adopted by Villa? So far this season we've lurched from wanting to be like Newcastle, to wanting to be like Swansea and not we want to be like Bilbao. Newcastle for their transfer policy, Swansea for the way they play and Bilbao for their localised youth development.
Certain elements can be adopted, but we need our own identity and philosophy.
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Unfortunately at the moment we don't appear to have an identity or philosophy other than cost cutting.
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Unfortunately at the moment we don't appear to have an identity or philosophy other than cost cutting.
Don't we?
Although I think it's the start as opposed to the finished article, the amount of youth players we have in the first team is maybe the start of a more longterm approach for us. As is the sourcing of Bosmans, therefore making better use of funds.
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I appreciate the younger players are being brought it, but at the moment there doesn't appear to be a tactical vision for the future. Hopefully that'll change.
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Why is it everytime a side does well, we're straight away talking about how their model should be adopted by Villa? So far this season we've lurched from wanting to be like Newcastle, to wanting to be like Swansea and not we want to be like Bilbao. Newcastle for their transfer policy, Swansea for the way they play and Bilbao for their localised youth development.
Certain elements can be adopted, but we need our own identity and philosophy.
Agreed John.
It's all a bit 'want that one,' and ignores the individual circumstances of the clubs involved compared to ours.
Bilbao for example only recruit Basques as part of the cantera policy. The fans were asked would they prefer to stick with cantera even if it meant relegation or drop it and sign players from anywhere. Over 90% said they'd prefer relegation. It's that important to them as part of their identity.
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I appreciate the younger players are being brought it, but at the moment there doesn't appear to be a tactical vision for the future. Hopefully that'll change.
We're a bit of a hodge podge at the moment, with players bought by MON and Houllier for differ styles. Once they are cycled out and the manager can put his own stamp on the squad, whatever that may ultimately be, then I'm hoping we will see some tactical game plan emerge.
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This 'best league in the world' stuff. It depends what you mean by 'best'. To me it's the best to watch, and judging by the foreign TV rights, the world agrees.
Benitez has just said it's the best because in Spain, Italy and Germany all teams play the same style of football, whereas in England the teams play nothing like each other, making it more of a challenge for a manager.
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It's 7v7 up to U-11s. I'll ask/find out on Sunday what it is for U-12s onwards.
Legion, what size football do young kids use these days? Are there different sizes through the age groups? I always find it frustrating to see little nippers trying to kick a full sized ball and only managingto punt it 5metres, or try keepie uppie with what is the equivalent of a medicine ball to them. On the plus side, it does stop the 40m hoofball mentality from the age of 4.
Good coaching, technique, movement are all so important from an early age. Football must be one of the few sports where so many British kids run off and have a go themselves without proper coaching.
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It shows that in the same way only the English people/media think the English national team can win a competition...
I think England can win the Euros? I wasn't sure before but now you've let me know what I think...
Sandie Shaw won it single handed.
She did use a puppet on a string to help her!
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It's 7v7 up to U-11s. I'll ask/find out on Sunday what it is for U-12s onwards.
Legion, what size football do young kids use these days? Are there different sizes through the age groups?
Yes. Size 3 (up to U-9 I think), then size 4 (to U-11), then size 5.
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our Academy does seem to be doing something right.
Indeed. It's not like the Villa youth team were disgraced by European opponents this year.
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It's 7v7 up to U-11s. I'll ask/find out on Sunday what it is for U-12s onwards.
Legion, what size football do young kids use these days? Are there different sizes through the age groups?
Yes. Size 3 (up to U-9 I think), then size 4 (to U-11), then size 5.
Its size 3 for mini soccer up to under 9's - then size 4 for 9 vs 9 and 11 vs 11 up to under 13/14's then up to full size
The split that is 9v9 or 11v11 depends on the league your in - I am a level 2 caoch and we went to 11vs11 on 3/4 size pitch (size 4 ball) - other leagues go 9vs9 up to under 12's. FA plan is to go 9 vs 9 up to under 13's
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The Bilbao model wouldn't work anywhere else I don't think. However the structure to follow is that of a passing, technique based game. Also mix that in with the Barca approach of having all youth, reserve teams at the club playing with the same tactics as the first team. However that being said, our first team would need some tactics first.
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However the structure to follow is that of a passing, technique based game. Also mix that in with the Barca approach of having all youth, reserve teams at the club playing with the same tactics as the first team.
This word for word is the route we should be looking to take, its not exactly hard to implement either as our youth team and reserves play the same way, its just then when the players get promoted to the first time that the football is worlds apart.
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The Bilbao model wouldn't work anywhere else I don't think. However the structure to follow is that of a passing, technique based game. Also mix that in with the Barca approach of having all youth, reserve teams at the club playing with the same tactics as the first team. However that being said, our first team would need some tactics first.
Arsenal do that as well,when they put their youth out in the league cup,they play exactly the same as the usual team. Our problem is that the youth play progressive,passing football for youth and reserves,then when they do reach the first team its a clash of cultures for them.
Hopefully with a few more points on the board,it'll be a little easier to introduce some others into the first team.
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Yeah actually it's kind of the reverse with us thinking about it, we need the first team to adopt the football approach of the youth and reserve teams.
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The cantera policy of using ONLY players from a defined geographical region wouldn't work at the Villa as the West Midlands doesn't have the same cultural identity as the Basque Region.
Also, I remember that only 2 or 3 years ago, Bilbao were very nearly relegated for the first time in their history, so lets not pretend that they have always been brilliant. I think they owe a lot of their standing this season to a crop of decent youngsters and a manager whose radical approach seems to have clicked with these players. A bit like Fergie and their kids in the mid 90's. So a bit of luck and a bit of good management.
The fact that they are a unique club in many ways just makes their success more noticeable.
Anyway, I thought we were copying the Cleveland Browns model??
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The cantera policy of using ONLY players from a defined geographical region wouldn't work at the Villa as the West Midlands doesn't have the same cultural identity as the Basque Region.
Was just about to post along similar lines. Pretty much impossible to compare the two, considering the autonomous nature of the Basque region (as with Catalonia etc).
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Absolutely spot on EffDee, and exactly what i was thinking as i was watching it.A performance that proves tou don;t need star names to play good football.
No prima donnas, fantastic work rate, fantastic attitude, fantastic resilience, and a fair amount of skill to add to it.
If i was Randy, i would send McL there for a week to learn the philosophy, send Gabby there to watch LLorente on how to move off the ball, send Bannan and Albrighton there to see how their young lad, sorry don't know his name, on how to be small, but be top quality because of attitude, and both physical and mental strength.
There is absolutely no reason why we can't /should'nt follow thei model.An absolute pleasure to watch.Not bad supporters either.
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I think Houllier had similar ideas on how he wanted his villa team to play eventually, it would have taken a few years but he may have succeeded , we'll never know.
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If i was Randy, i would send McL there for a week to learn the philosophy, send Gabby there to watch LLorente on how to move off the ball, send Bannan and Albrighton there to see how their young lad, sorry don't know his name, on how to be small, but be top quality because of attitude, and both physical and mental strength.
Iker Munain ?? This lad is something really special.
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We're not the only club who should learn from Bilbao, nor are Bilbao the only Spanish club that English teams should take note of. The difference in quality between the two national sides is ridiculous. 10 years ago, Spain were footballs great underachievers, and now they're the pinnacle. They started from the ground floor, from the kids and sorted out the mess they had. England has to do the same.
In fairness to ourselves, we're embracing youth, and local kids more so than most of our fellow top flight clubs. We just need the right management and coaching. McLeish could possibly, and would certainly need to, adapt to get the best of our boys and bring a modicum of success with it, otherwise he's a goner.
Bilbao though, very impressive. You'd look at that squad of players and how they play football and it's probably been years in the making. Like I say, their not alone in Spain in doing that and bringing through local players and young talent from their academy. The last 4-5 years for England (if not more) should only emphasise just how badly we need to change our outdated ways. If Barca's total football is not inspiration enough I don't know what is. Why would kids and those teaching them not demand this now, in this day and age? It was talked up after the last World Cup disaster and we need to see more action so our national side and indeed the premiership as a whole, improves and we can be proud of the English game again.
Like a mate of mine told me, who had trials at QPR's academy. They picked the bigger, stronger, quicker players over those who could pass and control a ball better.
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Good comments above - interesting views.
TBH, I wasn't thinking too hard about the locals-only bit of the model; like others, I think that would be difficult to achieve to say the least and is not really valid in B'ham / West Mids (the basque identity is somewhat more defined, I'd argue).
My main thrust in the OP was about the style of play and the use of players:
- a balance of youth and experience.
- each player technically gifted.
- a fantastic game of pressure and energy when not with the ball.
- a freshness and invention when in possession.
... it (the squad) is full of enthusiasm, skill and focus ... with our emerging core of academy-developed players, surely it's time to take a leaf out of the Basque book of footballing philosophy and play a fresh, energetic and positive game-play.
As someone pointed out above, this might not be peculiar to Ath Bilbao but it is certainly exemplified by them. Hence my (slightly tongue-in-cheek) suggestion that perhaps McL could do worse than spend some time with them over the summer.
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After watching Swansea this weekend tear apart Fulham something we can currently only dream about surely this is what we and the rest of the country should be aspiring too.
Okay it make time and a new manager as McLeish will never be able too implement that kind of football, but I would rather loose games trying to play that style than any of the football we have dished up this season.
Im impressed by Brendan Rogers as well seems like a decent guy and has excellent European and English experience despite being very Young.
I will be very disappointed if he is not manager of the season after the award usually goes too one of the big teams that have great financial backing
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I think it will be his for sure.
Managers like Moyes have won it before (3 times, in fact @.@ ) Despite zero trophies.
So the manager of the league/ cup champions doesn't always bag it as of right. Mancini , with the sums they've spent, should be blackballed by default. The only realistic competition to Rodgers should be Lambert of Pardew.
The success of Rodgers Swansea also does away with this notion that teams can't be expected to compete and play with a decent level of fluidity unless they've spent x amount of millions. Preparation is the key. The better managers prepare more than most.
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I reckon Swansea will go down next season.
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Probably, but with their tiny resources it won't exactly be unexpected.
What people miss about Swansea is that their football is not the product of a good manager but rather a long term plan and an ethos. We won't be able to start playing excellent football at the drop of the hat and we will need a long term strategy. We lack that at the moment. What I think is most telling is that we have a reserve team who play excellent football with great passing an movement. Yet, the first team is completely different and has been for a long time. When our young players come into the first team some of them struggle due to the absence of passing and movement and even the ones who don't struggle end up looking less good than they actually are. We need to develop a common strategy across the club where there is a common style of play where young players are educated in the same way of playing as the first team.
Our biggest problem here results from the lack of continuity. Nowhere is this better exhibited than in managerial appointments. In two years we have gone through five managers temporary and permanent which has really damaged our ability to develop the kind of strategy we need. The club don't help themselves in this either. We went from Houllier, a manager who had his ideas on football, to McLeish, who seems to have divergent ideas on football which makes any hope of continuity way more difficult.
It's all well and good wanting to play like Swansea or Bilbao or Barcelona or Ajax, but you won't get either if you don't understand how they are done or how they have been achieved and accepting that these won't be found through short term measures, but long term strategic planning.
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Exactly right Zogman. Demonstrated by their choice of managers. Martinez, Sousa and Rodgers all try and play good football so there is no doubt about what their philosophy is.
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Probably, but with their tiny resources it won't exactly be unexpected.
What people miss about Swansea is that their football is not the product of a good manager but rather a long term plan and an ethos. We won't be able to start playing excellent football at the drop of the hat and we will need a long term strategy. We lack that at the moment. What I think is most telling is that we have a reserve team who play excellent football with great passing an movement. Yet, the first team is completely different and has been for a long time. When our young players come into the first team some of them struggle due to the absence of passing and movement and even the ones who don't struggle end up looking less good than they actually are. We need to develop a common strategy across the club where there is a common style of play where young players are educated in the same way of playing as the first team.
I agree totally.
My big fear is that the crop of players who all came through at roughly the same time will go to waste.
There is no guarantee, of course that if we had a Rodgers or similar that Bannan, Albrighton, Clark and co would go on to fulfil their potential. History teaches us that if one makes it as a first team regular you've done really well. But I'd like to see them given every opportunity to succeed in the first team -and for that we will need a manager whose main motivation is to do a bit more than stop the opposition.
So for that we will -at some stage in the next few months- have to bite the bullet and make a more progressive appointment. Flair players like Albrighton, Bannan, Delph, Ireland and N'Zog have already fallen foul of Big Eck- the latter of course being his own signing.
Delph already looks like he'd been earmarked for the exit, Bannan was apparently very unhappy with his first team involvement and was looking to get away in Jan and Albrighton has looked a shadow of the player we know he can be marooned out on the left. With Holman coming in -a player who predominantly plays on the right- the writing might be on the wall for him too. And you can hear the justification too, funds are tight yada yada yada.
I accept that's all largely supposition. But I don't think it's at all unlikely that all three of them could be out the door by Sep 1st 2012. Given the choice out of losing three decent, technically competent midfielders or a limited old school manager I know which scenario is more palatable to me.