Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine

Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: DeKuip on April 02, 2011, 06:28:14 PM

Title: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: DeKuip on April 02, 2011, 06:28:14 PM
I've not seen today's incident and have only heard it reported, so it may not have happened exactly like this - but it still raises a big question.

At what point would the match referee have turned to the video referee to decide whether the ball was over the line.
Ball bounces down on/over the line and defending team immediately launch the ball forward where it finds an attacker who runs through to score at the other end. All happened in the time it takes to view the replay.
Should the ref stop play immediately the ball bounces on or over the line, or should he wait until the next time there is a stoppage in play?
If you can see my point here - either one team could be celebrating a goal at one end while the video ref is still looking at replays of an incident at the other end... or that team could have been denied that opportunity if the referee had blown first to stop play and go to the video ref.

And if we'd had the technology in use at today's game - would all the talk afterwards have been that we should also use the video ref to decide on dodgy penalties?

I say leave it alone - it's all part of the game that sometimes decisions go your way and other times they don't.
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: BC54 VFC on April 02, 2011, 06:48:47 PM
Having just got back from the game then I agree with your conclusion. These things even themselves out over time, even though from where I was standing I thought there was a good possibility that the ball did cross the line from Beckford's shot; having said that, I also thought he was offside.
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on April 02, 2011, 06:58:59 PM
This, from the Everton FC website.

Quote
  David Moyes insisted Jermaine Beckford's 'goal' should have stood after Everton's 2-2 draw with Aston Villa.

It cannoned down towards the goalline but ref Mike Jones and his assistant Stephen Child decided it hadn't crossed the line, leaving the Everton manager to raise the issue of goalline technology after the match.

Crucially, Villa then launched the counter attack which saw Darren Bent give them a 2-1lead.

Moyes said: "Yes it was over the line. I thought with the angle the ball had rebounded it had to go over the line.

"It's not an easy call for the linesman and referee and that's why we're looking for goalline technology.

"Today it was a double whammy, the referee gets it wrong and they go up the other end and score ten seconds later. For us that was a real blow but it was our defending which cost us a goal."

   
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: stevenavfc on April 02, 2011, 07:18:36 PM
It is an interesting scenario that became reality today. Hadn't really thought about it before but what happened just goes to show that technology may not have all the answers as far as football is concerned. It is valid in sports where the disputed element causes a break in play but in football that isn't always the case, maybe best left alone as you say.
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: VillaZogmariner on April 02, 2011, 07:57:20 PM
Where do you draw the line though?

Only on shots that come down on/over the line?
Penalties?
Free Kicks?
Offsides?
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: Ads on April 02, 2011, 07:58:31 PM
Maybe the video technology could show that Beckford was two yards offside.
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: hawkeye on April 02, 2011, 07:58:40 PM
Villa fans against technology the day a good goal was not allowed shock.


Remember Filbert Street
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: Ads on April 02, 2011, 07:59:41 PM
Villa fans against technology the day a good goal was not allowed shock.


Remember Filbert Street

I'm not against it, I just think its irrelevant, as Beckford was offside. So Everton can get to fuck with their moaning.
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: VillaZogmariner on April 02, 2011, 08:09:22 PM
Maybe the video technology could show that Beckford was two yards offside.

They'd have to find a way of deleting Luke Young from the frame then, as he was playing Beckford 1 yard onside.
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: UK Redsox on April 02, 2011, 08:16:49 PM
Having just got back from the game then I agree with your conclusion. These things even themselves out over time, even though from where I was standing I thought there was a good possibility that the ball did cross the line from Beckford's shot; having said that, I also thought he was offside.

As far as I'm concerned, that's a cop out and not a valid argument. Each incident should be viewed on its own merits and not dependent on some theoretical notion that another incident will have an opposite outcome. Decisions by Football referees aren't subject to Newton's Third Law.

Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: BC54 VFC on April 02, 2011, 08:33:46 PM
Having just got back from the game then I agree with your conclusion. These things even themselves out over time, even though from where I was standing I thought there was a good possibility that the ball did cross the line from Beckford's shot; having said that, I also thought he was offside.

As far as I'm concerned, that's a cop out and not a valid argument. Each incident should be viewed on its own merits and not dependent on some theoretical notion that another incident will have an opposite outcome. Decisions by Football referees aren't subject to Newton's Third Law.



...and I agree 'that each incident should be viewed on its own merits'. However, my comments indicate that from a position two rows from the front of the Villa fans, therefore very close to the pitch, and broadly in line with where Beckford was standing when the ball was passed, I got one decision right (that the ball crossed the line) and one wrong (as others have stated on the match thread Young was playing Beckford onside). As it happens on these two 'incidents' the three officials also got one right and one wrong. In an ideal world the officials would get every decision right but this is never going to happen; they're only human like us. The OP makes the very valid point that if play had been stopped today to view 'technology' which had then proven the ball didn't cross they line, then Villa would have been denied the chance to go 2-1 up within seconds, and the game would have been slowed down whilst the 'technology' was viewed. If such stoppages became commonplace then how long would the game then last? I believe it would lose tempo and excitement as a result of constant stoppages. Let's continue to rely on the officials and give them a break when they do get it wrong. And yes I am old enough to remember Filbert Street, 4th April 1970.
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: itbrvilla on April 02, 2011, 10:36:26 PM
For 2-3 goal line decisions a season? The problem is the other decisions like vidic today, which happen all the time and to me are more of a game changer.
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: itbrvilla on April 02, 2011, 10:38:32 PM
P.s . Goal line technology is a waste of money. Perhaps they should concentrate on getting penalty and red card decisions right
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: The Moose on April 02, 2011, 10:41:45 PM
Irrelevant. Beckford was offside.
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: Guy M on April 02, 2011, 11:27:48 PM
Having not watched the game either, my initial reaction was the same as DeKuip's and pretty much what it has always been: the introduction of technology into football for "goal-line decisions" is a Pandora's Box that isn't worth opening.

Having just watched the highlights on MOTD, my opinion hasn't changed.

Just as the linesman could have given a goal for Beckford, he could and possibly should have given us a foul (didn't catch who it was on or by) as the ball went out for a throw-in just before they got the penalty. I just don't agree with the idea that in one situation technology should be used and in the other it wouldn't.

The officials clearly need help as the game is much faster now than it was and the players way more preoccupied with trying to cheat them / their opponents. For me, the answer has always been extra officials. As an ex-hockey player, my preference was for a referee in each half of the pitch but I think additional officials behind the goals as used in the Europa League also make sense.

What bothers me far more than a human being making an honest mistake are players deliberately cheating the officials & the fans and the powers-that-be who aren't really bothered about doing anything.
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: Dave Cooper please on April 03, 2011, 12:28:47 AM


I'm not against it, I just think its irrelevant, as Beckford was offside. So Everton can get to fuck with their moaning.

Beckford wasn't offside, Luke Young played him on.

Despite the fact that it almost certainly saved us today I can't be hypocritical, we should have goal-line technology, along with any other gadgets that are available,
I don't go with the argument that if it's not available at all levels then it shouldn't be allowed, Hawkeye isn't available at County cricket level but it doesn't stop them using it in Tests.
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on April 03, 2011, 08:06:54 AM
The ball was over the line, he wasnt offside. If we had goal line technology then Everton would have been 2-1 up instead of 2-1 down, however we dont have goal line technology so................

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/24/43963903_54506b9cb1_o.jpg)

Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: Ad@m on April 03, 2011, 09:28:34 AM
FIFA's criteria for goal line technology are that it must be 100% accurate, give an immediate result, and not be too complicated to implement.  The whole point of this is that you wouldn't have to stop the game unless the decision is that a goal should be given.

The two main suppliers that were pitching last year had systems with either a computer chip in the ball and sensors around the goal to show when it crossed the line, or a matrix of cameras positioned around the goal to do the same thing.  One of the suppliers was the same people who do the Hawkeye systems for tennis and cricket and based on what I've seen on TV of those systems I think they would've instantly sorted the Beckford incident out yesterday.

For what it's worth, seeing it on TV last night, I don't think it was over the line.  I can see Moyes's argument but the whole of the ball didn't cross, only half of it did.
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: Charlie8182 on April 03, 2011, 09:31:13 AM
The Beckford incident only almost starts to make up for the Kevin Richardson handball on the line in 84!!
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: olaftab on April 03, 2011, 09:38:28 AM
No no whatever we do we MUST not stop the game. The incident yesterday highlighted everything that is good about watching football. One scenario changing to another in a matter of seconds.
So NO video replays but if we can find a way to instantly tell if the ball has crossed than yes.
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: Phil from the upper holte on April 03, 2011, 09:38:55 AM
Beckford wasn't offside but I still think that we need goalline technology, Ok this time it suited us but what if it were Bent that had the goal disallowed? that could have been the difference between going down and staying up?
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: Nev on April 03, 2011, 10:02:06 AM
The call for video technology is purely down to the inability to accept that referees, like everybody else, make mistakes and that sometimes you get bad luck.

Good teams will win things, shit teams won't. To say that one decision in one game can influence a whole season is nonsense. If Bent's goal was disallowed and we lost it wouldn't be the reason we went down, the overiding factor would be the piss poor results throughout the season. But the lack of VT gives crap managers a great get out clause, as used by Fat Sam on a regular basis. You will also notice that managers only bleat about VT when a decision goes against them, the silence is deafening when they benefit.

And if you think wankers like Ferguson and Wenger are going to meekly accept decisions just because it has been reviewed by a video ref you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

The game of football doesn't need to change, but it might be considered that the people involved do.

Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: itbrvilla on April 03, 2011, 10:34:51 AM
List of thing more important than goal line technology (to be used 2-3 time a season perhaps):

-Offsides - incorrect decisions cost more that 5+ goals per season per team
-Handball in penalty area - same as above
-Fouls outside the box incorrectly given as penalties - maybe 2-3 a year
-Not giving red card to last man - see Vidic last night, could of changed the game in WHAMs favour meaning a swing in 3 points.

Goal line tech is just stupid!!!
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: ktvillan on April 03, 2011, 10:55:53 AM
Vidic wasn't last man, and in any case being last man is irrelevant, there's nothing in the rules about it.  The criteria is about denying a clear goalscoring opportunity.  He didn't do that either so there was no case for a red card in my view.  And he was standing outside the box when he made the challenge anyway.  Vidic should have gone later mind for a clear second yellow offence that wasn't given.

The analysis of the Beckford thing is being done with hindsight.  If you actually stop a game for VT you will never know what might have happened next unless your name is Nostradamus so it is really a moot point.
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: eric woolban woolban on April 03, 2011, 03:43:31 PM
If we had the technology. England could have been 2010 world cup winners. *Whistling emoticon*

Leave it out the game. It's the contrecersial talking points that make this game what it is.
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on April 03, 2011, 04:19:40 PM
If we had the technology. England could have been 2010 world cup winners. *Whistling emoticon*

Leave it out the game. It's the contrecersial talking points that make this game what it is.

If we had had technology, West Ham may not have won the world cup in 1966 and fritz would have sneaked it back off to the land of leiderhosen wearing sausage eaters.
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: CJ on April 03, 2011, 04:44:55 PM
I'm not in favour of goal line technology. Controversy is part of the game, which is becoming increasingly sanitised purely on the basis of the money involved.

If we had to have it maybe there could be a chip in the ball, and when the sensor detected the whole ball had crossed the line some of those lightning quick shutters they have in banks could shoot up from the goal line. And if a player (John Terry for example) got in the way, and as a result got decapitated, that would just be an added bonus.
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: mozza on April 03, 2011, 04:47:21 PM
Moyes reckons the ball crossed the line indicated by the angle it came back out ?

Rate him as a manager and wouldn't mind if he came to VP but please comment
on football not physics Mr Moyes

For what it's worth I was standing in line with corner flag, and unless a couple
pops blurred my vision considerably, the whole of the football did NOT cross the line-

I wonder if the officials felt they might have made a mistake and later awarded a
dubious penalty (the first Everton have had this season at Goodison I believe) ?

...............a big NO to touchline technology from me - it's swings and roundabouts
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on April 03, 2011, 05:03:26 PM
(http://www.goalstopper.com/images/goodgoa0.jpg)(http://mitchieville.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/no-goal-england.jpg)
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: villa1 on April 03, 2011, 05:24:29 PM
I liked the comment by Moyes after the game. Apparently the ref and linesman should have given the goal because of the angle that the ball bounced down off of the bar.

Obviously it doesn't matter if it actually crosses the line or not then.
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 03, 2011, 09:44:59 PM
Beckford wasn't offside.

Couldn't see clearly because of the sun on the pitch but think Luke Young was playing him on from left back.

And the ball that came through to him was toed by I think Collins?

I assume in those situations where a team feels they've had a ball cross the line, they'd be instructed to boot the ball up of play or just do a foul so the stoppage could occur then.
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 03, 2011, 09:58:01 PM
No no whatever we do we MUST not stop the game. The incident yesterday highlighted everything that is good about watching football. One scenario changing to another in a matter of seconds.
So NO video replays but if we can find a way to instantly tell if the ball has crossed than yes.

Didn't the Bent 2nd goal come from a Friedel free kick from an offside?

I don't see the whole debate about it seriously stopping the game when nowadays you have Stoke players taking a minute to take thrown ins and players get treated on the pitch for injuries for a minute or two so plenty of stoppages.
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: Salsa Party Animal on April 03, 2011, 10:04:42 PM
I think football manager would love to throw a red rag to challenge a decision like NFL. Could it work for football if each manager only allow one challenge each half. If they (Manager) get it wrong they will lose a substitute.
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: hawkeye on April 03, 2011, 10:30:48 PM
No no whatever we do we MUST not stop the game. The incident yesterday highlighted everything that is good about watching football. One scenario changing to another in a matter of seconds.
So NO video replays but if we can find a way to instantly tell if the ball has crossed than yes.

Didn't the Bent 2nd goal come from a Friedel free kick from an offside?

I don't see the whole debate about it seriously stopping the game when nowadays you have Stoke players taking a minute to take thrown ins and players get treated on the pitch for injuries for a minute or two so plenty of stoppages.
i dont think so, Freidel put the ball on the deck and then hoofed it to Young who played a great ball to Bent
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: davevillan on April 03, 2011, 11:17:42 PM
If anyone thinks the ball was over the line...Go down the local rec and place a ball far enough behind the line, so that when you look down on the line, you can see green between the edge of the ball and edge of the line. That is when the whole ball is over the line, and see how far back it is, certainly further back then the ball bounced down yesterday. End of argument ;D
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: LeeB on April 04, 2011, 08:06:21 AM
Despite the BBC's best attemps, I'm still yet to be convinced that the ball was 'clearly over the line' at any point.
Title: Re: To all those in favour of video technology...
Post by: Pete Green on April 04, 2011, 09:35:26 AM
Interesting thread, the stopping of the game for reviewing footage is a real issue and probably why the technology isn't introduced.

There's always the option of going over the top with some Skyesque Super-Soccer razzmatazz, such as rope-lights embedded in the goal frame, or jets of steam and metallic ticker tape blowing out the top of the posts, with some shite music to go with it. Gooooaaaaal, in association with Shitehawk.inc

Different thing but yesterday I was at an Under 9's game and a shot crashed down off the bar and then back into the keeper's hands. Nobody at the game thought it was a goal, even the striker's coach put his hands behind his head and shouted "Unlucky...etc" then the ref gave it as a goal anyway. Bit odd.
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